LL-L "Language varieties" 2003.01.13 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 13.JAN.2003 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject:  LL-L "Language varieties" 2003.01.12 (07) [E]

Hi You all,

It is clear that Afrikaans does not really sound as Dutch, whereas the
official
Dutch has a "Northern-Netherlands" "sound".
But it is also clear that Afrikaans sounds most like West-Flemish (or
Zeelandic), which in fact sounds quite different from "official" Dutch.
I used to work in Amsterdam, and when people heard me talking my
West-Flemish,
they asked me if I was Icelandic?.........

Another autobiographic fine example of the similarity between West-Flemish
and
Afrikaans, occured when I was part of the jury in an architecture-school
where
I sometimes lecture. There was this Afrikaanse student, who apologised for
his
language and wanted to explain his project in English.
As most members of the jury were West-Flemish, we urged him to talk in
Afrikaans, which was a joy for us because it was almost closer for us, than
the
official Dutch we have to use in those regular circumstances.

Denbis Dujardin
Kortrijk
(West)Flanders

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From: Criostoir O Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2003.01.12 (07) [E]

Ian, Ron et al,

Ian wrote: "If I may add a cultural observation here (and it is just that,
an 'observation' - no offence implied or meant!), the same applies to the
Afrikaners themselves. They are quite clearly not Dutch. South Africans of
British descent clearly have a closer
relationship in every way - socially, culturally, politically - to their
motherland (the UK) than Afrikaners have to the Netherlands."

To my knowledge no-one on this list has ever and would ever attempt to
assert that Afrikaans-speaker were "culturally" Dutch. Language and culture
are kindred things but like brothers and sisters, similar but quite
separate - Irish people, Australians, New Zealanders, some Canadians et al
may speak English, but few would argue they were English because of that
fact. Likewise Flemings speak Dutch, but are not culturally Dutch in the
sense of belonging to the Netherlands.

I am quite concerned that Ian asserts that English-speaking South Africans,
and/or those of British descent (English? Welsh? Scottish? (Northern) Irish?
Cornish? Manx? Channel Island French? Other?) in South Africa "have a closer
relationship in every way - socially, culturally, politically - to their
motherland (the UK)". I suspect most English-speaking South Africans would
consider their social, cultural and political motherland to be South Africa
(British-born migrants included).

Ian should also recognise that the largest bloc of Afrikaans-speakers is not
Afrikaners but so-called Coloureds (who are largely descended from the
Khoisan of the Cape). 82.1% of 3,600,446 Coloureds (2,955,966) claimed
Afrikaans as their home language at the 1996 Census, compared to 58.5% of
4,434,697 whites (2,594,298) doing so. This is a common misconception.

Further contrary to what Ian suggests, Coloured people do in fact share much
culture with white Afrikaners (and both groups with the people of the
Netherlands), particularly in language and religion, where they tend to
share membership of the Afrikaans-speaking Dutch Reformed Church. No greater
example of this can be found than in Western Australia, where a peep into
any Dutch Reformed or New Apostolic church will demonstrate congregations
composed of Dutch, Coloured and Afrikaner migrants to the area, and their
Australian-born children. Services may be in Afrikaans, English or Dutch -
all three languages being understood by all parishoners.

Go raibh maith agaibh,

Criostóir.

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