LL-L "Language varieties" 2003.01.14 (03) [E]

Tue Jan 14 15:34:16 UTC 2003

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From: Criostoir O Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2003.01.13 (08) [E]

Ian,

Re: Afrikaans-speakers and Afrikaners. I didn't misinterpret you; I was
suggesting that as the majority of Afrikaans-speakers are not Afrikaners but
so-called Coloureds you shouldn't be surprised by the differences between
Afrikaans and Dutch or that Afrikaans culture (to which Afrikaans-speakers
and Afrikaners, even those who have given up Afrikaans for English, belong)
in general . The chances are that since the mid-18th Century, Afrikaners
have represented a minority culture within all Afrikaans-speakers. That's a
whole lot of non-European influence on the language and the culture.

I strongly disagree with your strange assertions about so-called "British
South Africans". Yes, one may be able to obtain Premiership sports results
in South Africa, or even see British news reported in the South African
media, but the same is also true of the Australian, Canadian, New Zealand,
Irish, and, if you look hard enough I would imagine, United States media. I
don't think this comes anywhere near proving - or even suggesting - the
alleged "social, cultural and political" affinity you are desperately
searching for.

South Africa is a former British colony, with a small but significant
British immigrant minority. Did it never occur to you that, like Australia,
Canada, etc. (who also have significant British-born minorities) this
pretend-pervasive Britishness is merely a colonial hang-over sustaining an
ever-ageing, ever smaller British settler group? Would you call Australians
of British descent "British Australians" and argue that they are "British
but of the Antipodes" as you seem to be arguing that "British South
Africans" are?

Just a thought! :)

Criostóir

----------

From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2003.01.13 (01) [E]

> From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
> Subject:  LL-L "Language varieties" 2003.01.12 (07)
> [E]
>
> Hi You all,
>
> It is clear that Afrikaans does not really sound as
> Dutch, whereas the  official
> Dutch has a "Northern-Netherlands" "sound".
> But it is also clear that Afrikaans sounds most like
> West-Flemish (or Zeelandic), which in fact sounds
quite different from "official" Dutch.
> I used to work in Amsterdam, and when people heard
> me talking my West-Flemish,
> they asked me if I was Icelandic?.........
[...deleted]
---------------------

Well, before a bunch of linguists are starting up most
interesting thoughts about the metaphonic similarities
of West-Flemish and Icelandic and Afrikaans:
I'm sorry. I used to know a lot of Icelanders speaking
Dutch, but a comparison of the West-Flemish born Denis
Dujardin with a Icelandic born native must be
far-fetched.

May I suggest that the question whether you were
Icelandic was heard in a certain pub in the
'Utrechtsestraat-=area'?

Though, a dutch-speaker hearing Icelandic and
Afrikaans (in a other pub) may a.o. hear that both use
a "a" which has more length than the dutch "a".

vr. gr. Theo Homan

----------

From: William Parker <William.Parker at three.co.uk>
Subject: Language Varieties

List readers,

Re Ian James Parsley's note about Afrikaans / Dutch.

As a (continuing) student of lowlands languages, a (non native) speaker of
Dutch (learnt in Antwerpen) with some abilities in Afrikaans and
Plattdeutsch and as a member of a Dutch / South African society that
regularly publishes material in both languages in its magazine
((http://home.wxs.nl/~nvav/) I have a couple of observations on the points
raised by Ian re Dutch / Afrikaans similarities and differences:

! Spelling

Afrikaans has adopted many of the spelling reforms suggested by the Dutch
linguist RA Kollewijn (1857-1942 who promoted simplified spelling notably
through his book "Vereenvoudigers arsenal" [1914]))    As part of the
language debate in Belgium / Netherlands in 19th / early 20th Century many
spelling reforms were proposed - (dropping ch from Mensch and other words,
using lijk for lik, ies for iesch , eene / Zoo for een / zo etc reflecting
the spoken form of the work). A large number but not all, (most notably the
lijk / lik)  were formally adopted in the 1930s / 40's in Belgium /
Netherlands. Many of his - and the society that he founded - ideas were
adopted by the literary founders of Afrikaans to define the spelling rules
of the language that they spoke.

Afrikaans has retained a number of the older Dutch spelling forms (some of
which can be traced back to the Staten Bijbel of 1656, and remember this
bible was often the only book in people's homes and so provided both an
example and a conservative influence on language change, if only in the use
of certain fixed expressions) eg Y for IJ   (This spelling difference was
used in the National Party leadership campaigns between Malan and Strydom in
1944 and later, with the  former consistently referring to the latter in
print as Strydom rather than his correct spelling Strijdom - Malan knew that
Strijdom was proud of his Dutch connections and used the Afrikaans spelling
to irritate his opponent, and thus emphasis his {Malan's} supposed pure Boer
origins  / credentials - Dan Malan, "Forty lost Years - The apartheid state
and the politics of the National Party 1948-1994", page 86 Ohio UP / Raven
Press Cape town, 1996

Because so many (white) Afrikaans speakers are now functionally able in
English (reflecting the reality that in the last 50 years the majority are
now urban rather than rural) they have a very good knowledge of English.
English remains the primary (though not the only) language by which new
ideas / words are imported into Afrikaans and in the main these are imported
with their English pronunciation.  Dutch as a reference model / role for
Afrikaans appears to have dropped away considerably since Dutch ceased to be
the second official language in 1925.

Dan O'meara notes that from 1946-60 there was a huge transformation in
(White) Afrikaners from a rural to an urban environment as Afrikaners move
into three work levels of SA society - Professions / Managerial / Executive
[upper middle class] (level 1,) Intermediate managerial / skilled roles
[lower middle class] (level 2) Supervisory and clerical roles (level 3).
(O'meara op cit P 37 ff).  This transformation resulted in (certainly I
think for levels 1 and to a great extent for level 2 but much lower levels
of take-up for level 3) that many Afrikaans speakers became functionally
able in English, and this knowledge would have influenced the way in which
English word borrowings in Afrikaans would be a) spelt (phonetically based
on English pronunciation eg Af Donkie cf Dt Ezel  / English Donkey and b)
though literal translations of English words rather than make use of
equivalent Dutch models, eg Af  vuur-houtjie [matchstick] but Dt Lucifer)

After the Boer war the so called "second Language Movement" sought to
replace Dutch with Afrikaans, and some of the milestones were as follows:
1914 adoption of Afrikaans for education, 1925 replacement in Law /
Parliament of Dutch, 1933 production of the Bible in Afrikaans.  As a
further example of this strongly felt debate Die Burger was originally
established in 1915 as De Burger  - with a remit to defend the continued use
of Dutch in SA by publishing only in Dutch. Only after the formal change of
language in 1925 was it decided to switch to Afrikaans - a reaction to the
reality of the language debate in SA at that time..
More details about the spelling debate - and the foundation of Afrikaans can
be fond in the following books that may guide you in this area:
The influence of English on Afrikaans BC Donaldson (Professor of Dutch /
Afrikaans at Melbourne), Servus, Cape town, 1988, passim
Het Verhaal van een taal - Prometheus / Amsterdam 1993, pp 158-159 and
passim.

A useful web start for comparisons between the two languages is
http://www.uia.ac.be/apil/apil93/rolfnys2.pdf  (primarily focused on
developing language materials for courses in Afrikaans for Dutch speakers
but with lots of good examples and a wide ranging discussion) and more
generally this book "Bobbejane of Bavianan - Afrikaans tegen Nederlands"
Yvette Stoops, Coda Uitgevers / Mechelen 1995 (Dr Stoops was professor of
Dutch at University of PE 1968-1980) provides a very solid overview of the
differences between the two languages.

2 Resources

Some of the following web links may be of interest

www.afrikaans.be
www.deknoop.co.za
www.aardvark.be
www.atkv.org.za
http://www.ned.univie.ac.at/publicaties/taalgeschiedenis/nl/
www.e-klets,com  (monthly newsletter in Afrikaans for "Wereld burgers")
http://www.niza.nl/egoli (Afrikaans and African books generally)
Http://user.onlne.be/gamadoelas/ Belgium Afrikaans bookseller)

3 Origin / Sources of influence

As no specialist, I have noted the following that others might comment upon.

The possible Platt origin for some features of Afrikaans should not be
overlooked.  Since the VOC was a commercial organisation, it bought in its
own military troops to protect the investment.  Many of these troops were
German -Since Germany was not united joining local troop bodies may have
been a way out.  Certainly many Germans were part of the staffing of the
VOC.  In the case of SA, the German troops were "Waldeckers" - who did not
speak Hoch Deutsche but dialects or platt Deutsche and many stayed on it
would appear after the end of their military service. See  DW Krynauw
"Beslissing by Blouwberg" Tafelberg Cape town 1999 p7-8 and passim.  This
was the final battle between the British and the Batavian Republic in 1806,
but German troops were used prior to 1795 - the end of the VOC. This might
account for some of the features of Afrikaans such as the use of het as the
model verb form for constructing the past tense (cf Platt usage) and
possibly ? it has influenced vocabulary, Afrikaans Eertappele vs Dutch
Aardappelen cf HG Erdeapfeln.

William Parker
william.parker at three.co.uk
http://www.three.co.uk

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