LL-L "Language varieties" 2003.06.30 (01) [D/E/LS]

Tue Jul 1 04:48:47 UTC 2003

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L O W L A N D S - L * 30.JUN.2003 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2003.06.27 (02) [D/E]

> From: "Justin Renquist" <justinrenquist at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Vraag over Vlaams en ABN
>
> Dag Alle
>
> Als kind heb ik in franstalige Belgie gewoont, en heb Nederlands in
> school
> geleerd.
> M'n Nederlands leraar hier in Seattle komt uit Haarlem in Holland, en
> heeft
> 'n uitspraak die ik niet ken.
> Als ik heb Nederlands in Belgie geleerd, heb ik 'n zachte g en zeg het
> woord
> huis als "huh-ees" maar m'n leraar zegt ja "hoi-ees"
> In Belgie heb ik nie "hoi-ees" gehoord - is this a known difference
> between
> Belgian and Netherlands speakers?
> Bedankt,
> Justin
Dag Justin,

Er zijn inderdaad  verschillen tussen Nederland en België(Vlaanderen).
De uitspraak is daar het duidelijkste voorbeeld van. Ook in
woordenschat is niet alles gelijk.Er zijn nogal wat synoniemen. Die
zachte g is wel degelijk oké!

Maar toch vind ik dat we hier nog altijd met dezelfde taal te maken
hebben. Met een beetje goede wil  en een aandachtig oor lukt het zeker
om elkaar wederzijds te begrijpen. Die leraar moet voor zichzelf gewoon
een wat grotere inspanning doen en zich wat soepeler opstellen ten
opzichte van ons "Zuiderlingen".
  Het ondertitelen van Vlaamse series op de Nederlandse televisie, en
omgekeerd, het ondertitelen van Noord-Nederlandse series in Vlaanderen
vind ik helemaal verkeerd.Hoe kunnen we op zo'n manier van elkaar leren
of elkaar waarderen ? Ook het ondertitelen van "dialect" op de
televisie hoeft niet echt. Het meeste ervan is na wat gewenning zeker
te begrijpen. Limburgs ken ik alleen van reisjes in de streek of van
Limburgers op de tv. En toch lukt dat goed om die mensen te
begrijpen.Ik heb wellicht niet altijd de finesses beet, maar dat deert
mij niet. Wil ik alles kennen, dan moet ik mij daar maar op toeleggen
via studie. Misschien is het beter om de ondertitels via teletekst te
laten verlopen; dan heeft iedereen de keuze, met of zonder die
lettertjes.
groetjes
luc vanbrabant
oekene

----------

From: Holger Weigelt <platt at holger-weigelt.de>
Subject: "Language varieties"

> From: "Friedrich W. Neumann" <Fieteding at gmx.net>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Moin, Ron, Lowlanners,
>
> "....is de Hohnen tr ch' in 'n Stall, krookeelt de Heuhner weller
> all...!"
>
> ----
>
> F r 'n Stcker watt Doog dr p ick 'n aul' n  Bekannten (meist Fr nn
> 'n)
> weller.
>
> In miin Buuerntiid w r hei 'n Hannelsmann f r aulet Iisen (UG:
> "Schrotthndler"); hei bes k mii jeidet Joor einmool.
>
> Hei w r 'n Tootern (UG: "Roma, Sinti"), 'n allerbesten Keirl. Wii
> hannen 'n
> B lt Spoos mennichmool (wenn hei mi, tau 'n Biispeel, miin tweidbesten
> Hnger
> uut 'nein brennt haar un' opp siin Lasswoog' looden deih).
>
> Nu (ick will 't kott mooken) heff ick em weller droopen.
> Hei is all  ver seubentich, siin S n mookt de Geschften. Bii de Buuern
> is
> ne meihr sau veel tau hool'n, door m goot 's nu ook tau "Privootl d".
>
> Nu- wii drpen un' freu'n u's un' snacken  ver de "aulen Tiiden".
>
> Doorbi is mi oppfull 'n: hei, ook siin S n, hefft 'n heel eeigen Oort
> tau
> snacken.
> Ick fr g jemm, uut welck Rabeeid sei woll koomen daein (haar ick frher
> keein Tiid tau), un' sei vertellen, wat jemme Familij uut Pommern k m.
>
> Mann- mii d cht, de hannen jemme eeigen Sprook; ick kenn 'n poor L '
> uut
> Pommern, de snacken anners.
>
> Miin Froog: hefft de Roma/Sinti jemme eeigen "d tschen" Dialekt? Soau,
> ass
> de Juden dat joo ook hannen to freuhern Tiiden, un' de eirsten
> "Gastarbeiters" uut Polen in 'nt Ruhrgebiet jst sau, ass de T rkisch 'n
> Gest vo Doog?
>
> Sorry-
> vonnobend heff 'ck heel keein Lust tau 'n Ingelte versetten! Tau m d!
> Mookt anner L d mitt nner jsst sau.
>
> Beste Greutens
>
> Fiete.
>
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language varieties
>
> Moyn, Fiete!
>
> > "....is de Hohnen tr ch' in 'n Stall, krookeelt de Heuhner weller
all...!"
>
> Ja, ik weet ook nich, wat vr mallerige, vertrekte h yner ik my daar
> rantgd hev.  Daar w nscht 'n sik mayst dey spreekwyrdliche kat mit dey
> m ys' tou syn.
>
> > Doorbi is mi oppfull 'n: hei, ook siin S n, hefft 'n heel eeigen Oort
tau
> > snacken.
> > Ick fr g jemm, uut welck Rabeeid sei woll koomen daein (haar ick frher
> > keein Tiid tau), un' sei vertellen, wat jemme Familij uut Pommern k m.
> >
> > Mann- mii d cht, de hannen jemme eeigen Sprook; ick kenn 'n poor L ' uut
> > Pommern, de snacken anners.
> >
> > Miin Froog: hefft de Roma/Sinti jemme eeigen "d tschen" Dialekt? Soau,
ass
> > de Juden dat joo ook hannen to freuhern Tiiden, un' de eirsten
> > "Gastarbeiters" uut Polen in 'nt Ruhrgebiet jst sau, ass de T rkisch 'n
> > Gest vo Doog?
>
> Roma- un Sinte-lyd' hebt wy in Nord-D ytschland vr wiss vun 't 15.
> jaarhunnerd af an, un dar m k nt wy in jm eer v llen nich vun neie
> inwannerers snakken.  Nord-Dytschland is eyn vun man 'n paar rebeyden,
> in dey dat Roma un Sinte givt, un Hamborg is tou 'n deyl daar wegen j m
> eer Europ sch centrum.
>
> Sou wied ik daar wat vun afweten dou, givt dat in 't Romani (Rromans)
> mayst keyn lokaalwarianten, toumeyrst bloots stammeswarianten.  Dey
> Sinte snd nu al 'n tyd lang sethaft, un daar wegen kan 't angaan, dat
> sey Sinti, D ytsche un/or Neddersassische lokaalwarianten snakt.
> Toueyrst schulst Du daar wegen ruutkrygen, of dey lyd' Roma or Sinte s
> nd.
>
> Ik hev in 't West-Europ sche Romani un Sinti al 'n paar Neddersassische
> wyrd' vunnen.  Ik wil daar eyrstendaags maal wedder in r mklam stern.
>
> Fiete asked if the people of Pomeranian Gypsy descent he knows could be
> using their own local language variety.  I suggested that he first
> determine if they are Roma or Sinte.  Romani knows more tribal variation
> than regional variation.  Sinti and Sinti-influenced German and Lowlands
> Saxon might well have regional variety, since most of their speakers
> have been sedentary for quite some time.  I also mentioned that I have
> discovered some Lowlands Saxon (Low German) loanwords in both Romani and
> Sinti and will dig around among them sometime soon.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron
>
Hello Fiete, hello Ron !
As I understand Fiete's question he doesn't ask about Romani-variants
but
about a special way of talking German or Low Saxon that distinguishes
Sinte
speakers of Low German from (in that case) Pomeranian speakers of LS.
I do not really know the right answer but I could imagine that their
German
or Low Saxon is influenced by structures of Romani grammar in the same
way
as this occurs with other people speaking German or Low Saxon as a
second
language (compare for example the way of speaking known from people from
former eastern parts of Germany who mainly spoke slavonic dialects which
caused their German syntax sound quite strange to others).
Kind regards
Holger

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Moin, Holger!

I did not understand Fiete to ask about the Romany or Sinti either, but
I was looking at the larger picture and considered the native or
ancestral language or the "tribal" affiliation of those people
relevant.  If they are Rom, they are not likely to speak local varieties
of German, Lowlands Saxon (Low German) or Romany, unless they belong to
the small sedentary Rom minority of Germany.  Romany has tribal
variation, little or no local variation, since its speakers keep
traveling.  Similarly, their German or whatever other language would be
more likely to be neutral (and often "foreign") rather than local.  If
the people in question are Sinte they are most likely sedentary, and
sedentary people, unlike nomadic ones, create local communities and thus
develop local varieties of their language (if they keep speaking it).
If they adopt the Gadzhe (non-Gypsy) languages spoken around them, these
would most likely be local varieties (in the case of those people
Pomeranian German and/or Lowlands Saxon).  These may or may not have
Sinti influences, probably do (in the form of insider jargon) if the
Gadzhe language developes into a primary language within the Sinte
community.

In the part of Hamburg in which I grew up there are good-sized (mostly
itinerant) Rom and (resident) Sinte communities, more noticeable in my
childhood when these folks still wore their own styles of dress or could
be identified by customs (such as older women smoking cigars or pipes).
The Rom clearly spoke German "with an accent," i.e., as a foreign
language, if they spoke it at all (or more than a few sentences needed
for making a living).  The Sinte spoke it with native proficiency
whether or not they still spoke Sinti at home, older ones also Lowlands
Saxon.  Their "accent" was identical to mine, i.e., they spoke the LS-
and Missingsch-influenced Northern German of our part of town.  The two
communities had little or no contact with each other but were both
considered "Gypsy" by everyone.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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