LL-L "Phonology" 2003.06.09 (06) [D/E]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 09.JUN.2003 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Ruud Harmsen <rh at rudhar.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2003.06.09 (02) [D/E]

"Jorge Potter" <jorgepot at prtc.net>:
>No the Puerto Rican "rr" or initial "r" is to me identical with a
strong
>Colombian "j" or the "ch" of my favorite composer, J. S. Bach.
>
> [...]

>The Brazilian "Rio de Janeiro" is often pronounced there with both the
>initial and medial "r" pretty close to the PR "rr."

That's unique, medial r is always apical in all other kinds of
Portuguese.
>This is prominent in the state of Belo Horizonte, where they also
>palatalize the "t"

common almost everywhere in Brazil.

>and drop the "e" of "Horizonte."

Also done in Portugal, and perhaps other parts of Brazil.

--
Ruud Harmsen http://rudhar.com/index/whatsnew.htm  Update 8 June 2003

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From: "Peter J. Wright" <peterjwright at earthlink.net>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology 2003.06.08 (05) [D/E]

Ruud Harmsen wrote:

>>That would be the same as in the Portuguese of Portugal and
>>(differently) Brazil. Coincidence?
>>Is the Puerto-Rican (I think it was) Spanish uvular r (which I never
>>had the pleasure of hearing myself yet) also restricted to rr (and
>>initial r, being the same phoneme in Spanish and Portuguese), or is
>>it also used for non-initial written r?

The PRS uvular r *is* restricted to /rr/ in all positions, and is
strongly stigamized.  However, in Brazil, the sound tends to become a
voiceless palatal fricative, either /h/ or /X/, depending on the region
(is the South, more /h/, in the North, /X/) I believe.  But that's only
the tip of the allophonic iceberg as far as BP is concerned, however . .
.

>>>My theory about its existence in Portuguese is that its a relic of
>>>some pre-Indo-European language which was able to establish itself due
>>>to the fact that the speech area was at the very fringe of the Roman Empire.

>>Possibly. Or maybe French influence. The fact remains that a single
>>r between vowels is never uvular, in no accent worldwide of
>>Portuguese that I know of. The final r is often uvular in Brazil,
>>but never ever in Portugal. In other words, there is no type of pt
>>pronunciation which does not also have an apical r. There are styles
>>that have only apical r's though. If the uvular r were due to French
>>influence (as it may well be in Dutch and German), one would not
>>expect that.

I'm not convinced about the French influence, since I believe that the
uvular pronunciation of /rr/ in EPortuguese pre-dates the French
innovation by a couple of centuries.

>>>With regard to Vlaams, I believe (but I could be wrong) that almost the
>>>entire speech area uses apical /r/.

>>No. Not if you see "Vlaams" in the wider sense of "in Dutch speaking
>>parts of Belgium", which includes Brabantish and Limburgian
>>dialects. The uvular r is also quite common in Belgium, and not only
>>in Belgian Limburg.

Ik sta gecorrigert.  ;)

Cheers,

Peter Wright
New York, NY
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From: "Peter J. Wright" <peterjwright at earthlink.net>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology 2003.06.08 (05) [D/E]

From: "Jorge Potter"

>>No the Puerto Rican "rr" or initial "r" is to me identical with a strong
>>Colombian "j" or the "ch" of my favorite composer, J. S. Bach.

>>It inevitably confuses South Americans for a while after coming
>>here.When a Columbian hears the typical PR pronunciation of  "carretilla" meaning a
>>wheelbarrow, he hears "cajetilla" meaning a pack of cigarettes.

Which parts of Colombia use a strong "j"?  In Bogotá, Cali, and the
Caribbean coast all use a /h/, as far as I remember.  Medellín perhaps?

Cheers,

Peter Wright
New York, NY

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