LL-L "Orthography" 2003.06.15 (06) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 15.JUN.2003 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen <kenneth at gnu.org>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2003.06.15 (03) [E/LS/S]

I have been speaking with one of the guys behind the official Low Saxon
spelling for the Drenths area.

Apparently they thought about using <y> for the original [i:] sound, but
they had a lot of trouble doing so. Some of the problems are due to that
the majority of the people interested in reading and writing Drenths Low
Saxon are old people who have learned Dutch spelling and are too old to
accept and learn a different spelling system.

This means that a word like "leg" can be spelling like bien, been, bein,
beein, and bain in the official approved spelling system.

The suggested spelling would have been "byn" but they got comments like
"byn, not not, <shaking head> that has nothing to do with bain", or
comments like "y, that is a greek letter, we don't want to use greek
letters".

The problem in Drenthe is that people wants to write approx. like they
speak and with the letter sounds they know from Dutch.

Unfortunately this has the side effect that young people find the
orthography ridiculous, and that schools teachers don't really see how
they can teach the spelling to the students...and thus, no Drenths Low
Saxon in the schools.

Apparently they never considered keeping the phonetical ie, ee, ei, eei,
ai spelling and at the same time allow a spelling like "ey". This way
"ey" could be the recommented spelling, and the other would still be
allowed. This way the old people could write phonetically and the young
people could use ey, and learn that in the school.

Also, you could use "ey" generally, but use the phonetically spelling in
poems, or in quotations in texts if you want the readers to see where
the speakers comes from.

Cheers,
Kenneth

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Resources
>
> Moin, Thomas!  Schyn, dat Du wedder na dey list trgkamen bst!
>
> You are not alone in calling for such resources, and I agree that they
> are needed.  I would love to be helping learners by participating in
> creating such material, but I am afraid that this will need to wait a
> bit.  Hopefully others will help in the meantime.
>
> The main problems are that Lowlands Saxon (Low German, "Platt")
> orthography is a mess and that there is no standard dialect.  The
> examples you listed come from at least two orthographies.
>
> >  "e" as in  "he"
>
> It is pronounced like English <ay> in <hay> or like English <i> as in
> <hi!>, depending on the dialect.  In "Neo-Hanseatic" I write it as <ey>.
>
> >  "y" as in "dy, syne, my"
>
> This is from my "Neo-Hanseatic" system, an experimental system based
> loosely on principles of Middle Saxon spelling of the Hanseatic era,
> intended to be usable for LS speakers of both Germany and the
> Netherlands, since this is their common heritage.  (I will post its
> principles sometime; in the meantime please see a sample here:
> http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/low-saxon/ls-story.html)  Anyway, this <y>
> by itself stands for the <ee> sound as in <bee> or the <ea> sounds as in
> <tea>.  It is consistent with Old and Middle Dutch <ii>, <ij>, <> and
> <y> (> Afrikaans <y>) which used to have the same sound (and in some
> dialects still does) before it became diphthongized.  In Neo-Hanseatic,
> <y> can also serve as a glide after another vowel: <ey> for [EI] or
> [aI], <ay> for [aI] or [a.I], <y> for [I] or [OI], and <y> for [y:].
> What here is <y> is <i>, <ie> or <ieh> in other systems.
>
> (Note: Scandinavian traditions do not come into play; i.e., <y> is *not*
> pronounced like German <>.)
>
> > the "ch" as in schull [is it like Nederlands or German]
>
> Depending on the dialect.  In the far west, <sch> is as in Dutch or [sG]
> (with a voiced fricative).  Everywhere else it is pronounced [S] (as in
> "ship" or "shall").
>
> In most dialects, especially in Germany, <ch> is pronounced as in
> German: [x] after back vowels, [C] after front vowels.
>
> > or the "s" as in "de Mann sd"
>
> It is [z], as in German <sagt>.
>
> I hope this helped a bit for now.

--
Kenneth Rohde Christiansen <kenneth at gnu.org>

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