LL-L "Etymology" 2003.03.03 (06) [E]
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L O W L A N D S - L * 03.MAR.2003 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Stella en Henno <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2003.03.01 (07) [E]
> From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2003.03.01 (03) [E]
>
> Gary Taylor wrote:
>
> > I've never been happy with
> > the Hochdeutsch 'hin- or herunter' - it doesn't seem
> > as compact to me as 'down'.
>
> That's what we have "hoch" and "nieder" for, or "auf" and "ab" (as in:
"ich
> setzte den Koffer ab" - "I put down the suitcase"). "Ab" is a two-letter
> word - they don't come any shorter in German. It is also used in many
> composite nouns and verbs. The slighty longer form "hinab", meaning
> "downwards", exists as well. There also used to be another word for "up"
> which is now rather archaic but was much employed in writing a hundred
years
> ago: "empor". I've always wondered about the etymology of that one.
>
> Actually, nobody ever say "herunter" or "hinunter" in spoken High German.
> It's always "rauf" and "runter" (which one can "legally" spell without an
> apostrophe these days, although the Duden still marks them as inferior),
or
> one of the forms mentioned above. And then, of course, there's Lower Saxon
> "dahl".
>
> What I really miss in German, though, are all those terms for wearing your
> shirt the wrong way, namely "upside down", "inside out" or "back to
front",
> or, even better in Dutch: "ondersteboven", "binnenstebuiten", and
> "achterstevoren" (I love those!).
>
> Gabriele Kahn
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Roger (above) about Limburgish _del_:
>
> > Some samples:
> Below North Saxon dialect (of Lowlands Saxon/Low german) equivalents:
>
> > Lek dat éns del!
> > Put that down!
> Legg dat maal daal!
>
In WF:
Lis dat ris del!
> > Zèt oech! Zèt oech del! (when stressing)
> > Sit down! Please sit down!
> Sett di! (pl. Sett ju!, pol. Sett Se sik! ~ Sett Se jüm!)
> Sett di daal! (pl. Sett ju daal!, pol. Sett Se sik daal! ~ Sett Se jüm
> daal!)
Set dy del! But more common: fal del!
> Althernative:
> Gah sitten! (pol. Gaht (Se) sitten!)
> ("Go to sit!")
>
In WF: gean sitten.
(with -n on sitte from the gean-construction)
> > Similarey:
> > Lek oech del!
> > Lay down!
> Legg di daal! (pl. Leggt ju daal!)
>
> > I have no intuitive "feeling" "del" is semantically associated with the
> > Dutch "dal", but I may be wrong etymologically. If it is, it would
rather
> be
> > a plural (with Umlaut)
>
> I have a "feeling" it *is* related, that _del_ comes from
> adverbial/directional *_dal(l)e_ > * _däl(l)e_ > *_däl_ = _del_.
Yes, I'm pretty sure it is related. BTW, the Groningen dialect has _deel_ in
"deelleggen"
("dellizze" yn WF) where the ee-vowel maybe is an ingwaeonic relic.
(e < a is par for the course in Frisian, of course, and other Frisian
varieties all have ee-like vowels as well). The "etymologisch
dialectwoordenboek" by Weijnen has the lemma
dale, daal, deel, del: omlaag (oostnl, noordholl.) < mnl te dale,
letterlijk: naar het dal.
Strange he doesn't mention Limburgish.
Henno Brandsma
----------
From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2003.03.01 (05) [E]
> There seem to be two words here, if we are to believe the "Wurdboek
> fan 'e
> Fryske Taal": (for Westerlauwer Frisian)
> There is the word _dún_ = Dutch _duin_, English _down_ = dune.
> (the word dune in English comes either via French, where it is Frankish
> loan, or maybe from Middle Dutch (from which German Düne stems), hence
> the
> different vowel)
>
> But there is also a word _dûn_ (in areas neighbouring Saxon speaking
> areas)
> which has
> a dialectical variant _dún_ as well (with regular û --> ú change
> before -n,
> which is an autochthonous sound law). Note that the Saxon vowel [u] is
> preserved near Saxon areas, which shows influencing by these Saxon
> dialects,
> I think.
> This word means "drunk". The Groningen dialect also has _doen_ [dun]
> meaning
> "drunk".
> According to WFT this word is related to _dúnje_ and _dúnsk_ (with
> variants
> _deunje_
> and _deunsk_, I guess because of the nasal vowel (this happens more
> often))
> which mean "running around wildly (of cows, but fig. as well for
> people),
> especially if one of them is "teeldriftig" (horny?)" and "horny (of
> cows)".
> etymology unknown, maybe related to Dutch "deinen" (Frisian _dynje_
> which
> also has
> a variant _dúnje_ again) = "slow rocking of boats" (V.). This also has
> a
> repeating movement semantic element in it, hence the connection,
> suposedly..
>
> But with dún (meaning _dune_) there are expressions like "Hy is yn 'e
> dunen"
> (meaning he's lost his way, his bearings), which looks like a link
> towards
> meaning dún = drunk.
>
> My Dutch Etymological Dict says _down_ derives from Old English
> _ofdune_,
> _adune_
> meaning downhill. It says it has nothing to do with Irish dûn
> (fortress),
> this is related (not borrowed either way) with Dutch _tuin_ (garden),
> English _town_ (meaning "walled area"). English also has the word
> _down_ as
> a noun meaning _dune_, as a relic.
> The germanic origin is sought with the *dhû-no from a verbal stem *dhû-
> which means
> shake/stir, so hill = shaken earth (Greek: chutè gaia = grave hill) or
> with
> a meaning
> _opgestoven aarde_ (earth brought by wind), which would be related to
> _dier_
> and Latin fumus. But an old and not a borrowed word (but in a "typical"
> meaning).
> The etymology of _deinen_ (and hence dynje etc) is unclear.
>
> Henno Brandsma
I can add some related words in West-Flemish too,
V: Dune= D: duin
In V and D we have the sound "du/dui/dij" for something big, like
V:duust / D: duizend (=big hundred)
V:duum/D:duim (=biggest finger)
V/D: dij= big part of a leg.
V: doende zijn= to be restless, unquiet, turbulent.
Groetjes
Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene
----------
From: PPMAC56 at aol.com <PPMAC56 at aol.com>
Subject: Etymology
Hello all,
I was reading a site called "A Dictionary of Units of Measurement" by Russ
Rowlett. One of the entries is "juchart" or "juchert", a word which, the
article says, comes from southern Germany and German-speaking Switzerland
and represents, like "acre", an area that could be ploughed in a day by a
yoke of oxen. Other words are given which mean much the same thing such as
"joch" (Austria) and "journal" (France) which, like juchart/juchert are
derived from a Roman unit, the jugerum. The article ends by saying that the
juchart/juchert is also called the "tagwerk" (day's work). This raised a
couple of questions in my mind:
1. I can see the "yoke" link between juchart/juchert, joch and yoke, but is
there also an "acre" link here?
2. Is there a link of any kind between "tagwerk" and "acre"?
3. And does the prefix "agri-" have anything to do with this, or am I being
completely fanciful?
Last question: are there any decent etymological dictionaries available on
the net?
Here is the URL of the website I've been referring to:
http://www.ex.ac.uk/cimt/dictunit/dictunit.htm
Thanks in advance,
Peter McLean.
PPMAC56 at aol.com
----------
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology
Lowlanders,
I cannot come up with English and Scots cognates of the word group for
"true" that appears to be derived from Indo-European *_u˘er-_ '(do a) favor'
(> "trustworthy" > "believable" > "true"):
West Germanic: 'true':
Dutch: waar
Afrikaans: waar
Lowlands Saxon (Low German): waar (~ wahr)
German: wahr
Celtic 'true':
Old Irish: fír
Romance: 'true':
Latin: vērus
etc.
Slavonic: 'belief':
Russian: véra (вера)
Polish: wiara
Sorbian: wěra
etc.
I would expect something like *_wear_ (with an "eer" sound as in 'deer') in
English and *_wair_ in Scots; cf. ...
LS klaar
D klaar
G klar
E clear
S clair
LS baard
D baard
G Bart
E beard
S baird
Thanks for thinking about it.
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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