LL-L "Names" 2003.05.04 (05) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 04.May.2003 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * sassisch at yahoo.com
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm
Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen <kenneth at gnu.org>
Subject: Neger-Hollands

Hello,

This is from the lowlands page about Zeelandic.

<quote>
Furthermore, it was at that time that a number of Creole languages were
created on the basis of Zeelandic and African languages (Berbice, Skepi
and Negerhollands).
</quote>

I suggest we change Neger-Hollands to Die Creol Tael. Neger-Hollands is
a pretty negatively colored word and should not be used. The speakers
called their language for "Die Creol Tael" among themselves, and the
Danish people on the Virgin Islands called it Det Creolske Sprog ('det
kreolske sprog' in modern spelling). The Virgin Islands used to be a
Danish possession (Jomfruøerne).

Also, the creole has nothing to do with the Hollandic dialect, but is
instead based on Zeelandic. Another reason for changing the name.

The only dictionary I am aware of, is written by the hanhutters (unsure
about the spelling) and uses the name Det Creolske Sprog.

Regards, Kenneth

----------

From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen <kenneth at gnu.org>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2003.05.03 (07) [E]

I wonder why people called it Kopenhagen/Copenhagen. Didn't people have
any idea what it ment?

it is build from the following Low Saxon words (I suspect haven is low
saxon):

Koopman + genetive + haven

and the old spelling was:

Kiøbmannehaffn (kiøbman - ne - haffn)

Kiøbe original comes from latin caupo, but we got got the word from the
Hanzas. In icelandic it is kaupa today (pronounced like køypa) so I
wonder if it used to be spelled that way in Danish as well.

> I have no problem with German-speaking areas retaining "Peking."  It's
> an old and established name, established like "Kopenhagen" (for "K
> benhavn"), "Rom" (for "Roma"), "Mailand" (for "Milano"), "Athen" (for
> "Athine"), "Jerusalem" (for "Yerushalayim" or "al-Qudz") or "Damaskus"
> (for "Damashek").

Cheers, Kenneth

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Kenneth, Lowlanders,

> it is build from the following Low Saxon words (I suspect haven is low
> saxon):
>
> Koopman + genetive + haven
>
> and the old spelling was:
>
> Kiøbmannehaffn (kiøbman - ne - haffn)

Yes, 'port' still is _Haven_ ['hQ:v=m] ~ _Hoben_ ['ho:b=m] in LS.  In
Modern LS the name would, literally translated, still be
_Koopmannshaven_ or _Kööpmannshaven_ (<Koupmanshaven> ~ <Köypmanshaven>
in my "New Hanseatic" spelling experiment).

> Kiøbe original comes from latin caupo, but we got got the word from the
> Hanzas. In icelandic it is kaupa today (pronounced like køypa) so I
> wonder if it used to be spelled that way in Danish as well.

It is also related to English "cheap" and to Slavic *_ku(u)p-_,
fossilized as a loan also in the Finnish word _kaupunki_ 'town', 'city'
(the "place where you bought stuff, went to the market," I suppose).

Re "Negerhollands," I concur and would suggest "Kleol" or "Virgin
Islands Creole."  We have had a debate or two about this or similar
names before, and people felt that it would be politically too correct
to change them, especially because they are not English.  In the
meantime I have asked a few people of Subsaharan African descent (all
American, including one West-Indian-born and one Somalian-born American)
how they felt about these names (adding also a couple of German ones, as
well as related Central Asian Turkic names borrowed via Russian), and
they unanimously found them offensive, even when I stressed the fact
that they were not English.  Apparently, it does not matter if they are
not English as long as they are recognizable, and it sure don't help if
it's the language of a former colonial power.  I feel it is not for the
rest of us to decide if such names are offensive; if they are offensive
to the people most concerned, it's good enough a reason to avoid such
names and to look for alternatives.  Some words and names simply come
with too much baggage, too much pain, and I personally find it wise to
let basic compassion and respect for other people's feelings guide us.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

================================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
======================================================================