LL-L "Morphology" 2003.05.11 (07) [D/E]
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Sun May 11 18:59:41 UTC 2003
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L O W L A N D S - L * 11.May.2003 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Morphology"
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Morphology
>
> By and large, the use of definite and indefinite articles in the
> Germanic languages, including our Lowlands ones, is consistent.
There are some differences in the use of the definite article
between Scots and English. Mainly, English drops the definite
article before a noun signifying an institution, eg:
going to school - gaun tae the schuil
he's in hospital - he's in the ospital/infirmary
> Q 3: Might the (assumedly) relative scarcity of this device in English
> (and Scots?) be due to Celtic influence? (I believe that articles are
> rarely or never used with names in Gaelic. I am even less sure about the
> other Celtic languages of the British Isles.)
The definite article is used with names in Scots to indicate
respect, at least in the sense that the person referred to is
"one of a kind". Thus Sir William Wallace and King Robert I
of Scotland are referred to as "The Wallace" and "The Bruce".
Similarly, the main representative of a family in a village,
such as the father or the eldest son or whoever is most
"kenspeckle" (non-nondescript) might be referred to in this
way. Thus I was often referred to as "The Fleemin" when I
lived in the village, although now this is more likely to be
used for my younger brother.
As another example, we had a Scottish software engineer where
I last worked who was known by his surname "McWhinnie". There
came a time when my team was in urgent need of a particularly
complex software feature, which by dint of very hard work and
lots of skill and experience he produced very quickly. After
that I always referred to him as "The McWhinnie" - the
significance of this perhaps lost on the English engineers
down here?
Sandy
http://scotstext.org/
----------
From: "luc.hellinckx at pandora.be" <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Morphology
Beste liëglanners,
Very interesting topic, the use of articles with personal names.
As for Brabantish, I must say we also use them in association with a
person's name, but never if some sort of a title is already present,
e.g.:
(12) De Wim (or _Lommen_ in older Brabantish) és braa gierig.
(14) De Katrin komt van 'n noen eten.
So, we won't say :
(13) De Madam Van Mulders és naëg vriendelijk
but rather
"Madam Van Mulders és naëg vriendelijk"...or "Meniër Van Mulders és nog
vriendelijker"
This is probably due to the fact that _Madame_ and _Mijnheer_ already
contain the possessive pronouns _Ma_ and _Mijn_.
Moreover, it strikes me that with female given names this usage is far
less prevalent. Very often we also add
_e(n)_ at the end of the male person's name, like:
"De Lukke kan dàà ni ààn doen" (for "Luke can't help it")
"Den Trikken eit da dàà goed oëtgefaëcheld" (for "Patrick unravelled this
matter really well")
"De Seppe gàà traave binneköt" (for "Jeff's gonna get married very
soon")
As far as I know French doesn't have similar features, so this would
indeed corroborate Ron's hypothesis, attributing it to Celtic influence.
It does not explain though why standard Dutch doesn't have it either.
Besides, apparently Iberian Portuguese seems to use articles as well in
this respect and yet northwestern Gallego for example has a solid Celtic
substrate.
A relatively late continental German evolution sounds logical but how on
earth these Romance (non-French, I believe) influences got to Germany is
a mystery to me. The Southern Lowlands have been Spanish property for
quite some time, but I doubt that they could have exerted such an
influence that later on the whole of Germany decided to copy this
characteristic. Geographical distribution east of Cologne might shed a
light on this issue.
Greetings,
Luc Hellinckx...aka "De Luk(ken)"
----------
From: "Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc." <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2003.05.10 (04) [E]
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology
Q 1: How widespread is the use of articles with names in other Lowlands
language varieties?
Q 2: Are articles used with names in Lowlands Saxon varieties of the
Netherlands?
I would not use articles before names in my South-West Limburgish, but I
hear it often in "Brabantish" dialect varieties and in intermediate
language
"Dutch with a strong Brabantish flavor". I'm only awere of hearing it
with
first names, not with family names.
I never heard it in an pure "vocative" sense, but one hears it in
"welcome
exclamations", as e.g.:
"Wel, wel, de Rozjei !" in Leuven, where I studied.
What was also curious for me in the Leuven way of using "Meneer" with
first
names, "Meneer Rozjei", as I was adressed at the time by my "kotmadam",
while I would use "Meneer" only with family names.
Regards,
Roger
----------
From: "Jorge Potter" <jorgepot at prtc.net>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2003.05.10 (04) [E]
Dear Ron,
I'd like to add to you comment about the use of articles with names in
Spanish.
You said
"In Standard Castilian (Spanish), articles are used only if there is an
intermediate title, classification or adjective; e.g., _el seor Silva_
(the Mr. Silva) 'Mr. Silva', _el amigo G mez_ (the friend Gmez) 'our
friend G mez', _el gran Cervantes_ 'the great Cervantes'."
We do use the definite article with a person's given name when the
person is
well known to speaker and those listening when that person has some
outstanding characteristic: brainy, brash, brilliant, beautiful,
sexy,obnoxious, whatever.
If I said, "Hoy vi a la Carmen," I would translate that into English as,
"Today I saw the Carmen that you and I know so well."
Es un placer comunicarme con el Reinhard.
Jorge Potter
----------
From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2003.05.10 (04) [E]
> Q 1: How widespread is the use of articles with names in other Lowlands
> language varieties?
Dag Ron,
Ik denk dat het gebruik van lidwoorden in het Nederlands heel dicht bij
dat van de Engelse taal ligt. Vermoedelijk schakelen we wel sneller
over naar het gebruik van voornaamwoorden in plaats van lidwoorden (
toch minstens in de westkant van België). De voorbeelden die je geeft,
kunnen in het Nederlands ook, maar komen eigenlijk te stroef over.
De situatie voor Brabanders en Limburgers ligt wel enigszins anders,
maar dat kunnen zij beter uitleggen. Oost-België lag altijd meer onder
de invloed van het Duits. Een zin als "De Stef is ziek." verraadt
meteen al dat de spreker niet van West- of Oost-Vlaanderen afkomstig
is.Voor iedere West- en Oost-Vlaming is dat "Stef is ziek" of
"Die(diene) Stef is ziek".
> Thanks and regards,
> Reinhard/Ron
groetjes,
luc vanbrabant
oekene
----------
From: ezinsser" <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2003.05.10 (04) [E]
Hello Ron and all,
You're asking:
Q 1 How widespread is the use of articles with names in other Lowlands
language varieties?
In Afrikaans this is almost non-existent. I still hear it very
occasionally amongst
older people, for instance: "Die Jan Vermaak is 'n regte stommerik".
I think it's used to ameliorate the insult.
Groete
Elsie Zinsser
----------
From: Gavin.Falconer at gmx.net
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2003.05.10 (04) [E]
"Q 3: Might the (assumedly) relative scarcity of this device in English
(and Scots?) be due to Celtic influence? (I believe that articles are
rarely or never used with names in Gaelic. I am even less sure about the
other Celtic languages of the British Isles.)"
I'm afraid I wouldn't know about Scottish Gaelic, but Irish Gaelic has a
few
interesting usages. The article is used as in the Spanish example you
quote
above, for example:
An tUasal Ó Dónaill, Mr O'Donnell (literally, the noble descendant of
Dónall, the "world ruler")
There is also a very common habit of removing the "mac" or "ó" at the
front
of the name and adding an adjectival suffix, the result being used with
the
definite article, for example:
An Dónallach ("the Donnellian")
This is used to refer to someone already known to the reader/listener.
It
has a genitive form too. "Scríbhinní Phádraig Mhic Phiarais", "the
writings
of Patrick Pearse" could also be expressed as "Scríbhinní an Phiarsaigh".
--
All the best,
Gavin
Gavin Falconer
Belfast: 02890 657935
Dublin: 00353 (0)1 831 9089
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