LL-L "Delectables" 2003.11.08 (08) [D/E]
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L O W L A N D S - L * 08.NOV.2003 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2003.11.08 (07) [E]
Tom wrote:
> My daughter (who recently moved from London to Coventry) reports
> picking sloe berries there. Those I am unfamiliar with. Are they to be
> found in the lowlands?
Of course they are found in the lowlands - sloes are not berries, they
contain stones - because they are actually the wild form of the plum! The
sloe bush is the same as the blackthorn.
Whenever I see a sloe bush it reminds me of a story my mother told me. She
was 18 years old in the late fall of 1945, pregnant with my brother and half
starved. She went out into the fields (that was near the city of Wiesbaden
in Hesse) to scrape together from the sloe bushes what she could. Sloes are
really nasty to eat raw, sour and bitter, but there was nothing else to eat
at all. While she was fighting the thorny bush, a black American GI strolled
past, eating from a bag of doughnuts. He saw what she was doing, stopped and
gave her a doughnut from his bag, which she devoured on the spot; then he
walked on. But after 20 metres or so, he stopped, turned around, went back
to her and, with tears in his eyes, gave her the whole bag.
[Gabriele Kahn]
----------
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Delectables
Tom,
Below are some things that were written about sloes in May of last year.
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
<quote>
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology
[English below]
Ik schreef:
> Ja, in 't Neddersassische (Nedderdüütsche) hebbt wi ook "Sleedoorn" ~
> "Slöödoorn" för de Plant, un "Slee(beer)" ~ "Slöö(beer)" för de Frucht,
> in 't ("Hoog"-) Düütsche _Schlehdorn_ un _Schlehe_, up Ingelsch
> _sloe_! (_Prunus spinosa_ "doornige Plumm") Ik harr dat man tovör
> nich verbunnen. Düt schall mit dat slaawsche Woord för "Plumm" verwandt
> sien (t.B. Russisch _sliva_).
I wrote:
> In Low Saxon (Low German) we also have _Sleedoorn_ ~ _Slöödoorn_ for the
> plant and _Slee(beer)_ ~ _Slöö(beer)_ for the fruit. (_Prunus spinosa_
> 'thorny plum') I hadn't made the connection. Apparently, the name of
> the fruit is related to the Slavic word for 'plum' (e.g., Russian
_sliva_).
'sloe', 'fruit of the blackthorn':
Old English: slâ ~ slâh
Middle Dutch: slê
Middle Low Saxon: slê
Old High German: slêha ~ slêwa
< Germanic: *slaihwôn
Cf. Slavic 'plum':
Proto-Slavic *_sliva_, Ukrainian (/slïva/) _slyva_, Russian (/sljíva/)
_sliva_, Belarus (/sljíva/) _sliva_, Bulgarian (/slíva/) _sliva_,
Macedonian (/slíva/) _sliva_, Serbo-Croatian (/Slj``iva/) _{s`'}ljiva_,
Polish (/sjliva/) _{s'}liwa_, Czech (/sliiva/) _slíva_, Slovak (/sliva/)
_sliva_, Upper Sorbian (dim. /slov(a)+ka/) _slowka_, Lower Sorbian
(/sliva/) _sliwa_, Polabian (/slaivå/) _slaivo_.
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
</quote>
<quote>
From: "luc.hellinckx at pandora.be" <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Slee (+ something else)
Hi Ron,
First of all this : During the last month I haven't really been able to
post, because I'm actually cycling in China...from Chengdu to Singapore
to be more precise...my trip will last a few more months, but now and
then I'm able to get a glimpse of (y)our "home" *s* whenever I can get
on the internet...which is now, and I'd like to add my contribution to
the word "slee".
In my Brabantish dialect the word (pronounced somewhat like slieje) the
word is used in two situations; first and foremost when a person is not
feeling completely allright, and he is looking a little pale it is said
that he is looking "slieje"...if I remember well, I looked up the
etymology of the word, and I think it is actually the same as the
English word "slow".
Secondly, but far less in use, it is also used for teeth that are
feeling wry (oops, I'm not sure if I'm using the word wry
correctly)...teeth that give a lot of friction when they are being
squeezed against one another...I seem to remember there is a connotation
with horse's teeth...but I'd have to look that up, which I'm unable to
do now...
Oh yes, I almost forgot; instead of "a double edged sword" or something
similar, we say : "Daane ze mes sned longst twieje kantn".
I wish you all the best...
Luc Hellinckx
PS : I've had to think about you quite often as I have never ever in my
life seen so many "yokes" in my life as here in China...where it is
still very much "alive and kicking".*s*
----------
From: Muriel Norde <muriel.norde at hum.uva.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.05.04 (10) [D/E/LS]
At 17:00 4-5-2002 -0700, Wim verdoold wrote:
>Verder hebben we een boom genaamd Sleedoorn, met vruchten die dus slee
>zijn
>en je tanden slee maken, net als cola , of als zure druiven.
And Niels Winther wrote:
>it is most problably related to Eng.<sloe> Dan.<slåen> Dut.<slee>
>i.e. Prunus spinosa; the most astringent of all fruits I believe,
>at least before the first frost.
Dutch _slee_ in _sleedoorn_ and the adjective meaning "blunt" appear to
have different origins. The noun _slee_, also meaning 'prune', is
cognate
with English _sloe_ , German _Schlehe_, and Swedish _slån_, all deriving
from a Proto-Germanic root _*slaihwo:n_. The word is also related to to
similar words in Slavic languages, as Ron already suggested (cf.
_slivovitsj_), and to Latin _livor_ "bluish colour" and Welsh _lliw_
"colour", so the original meaning might have been "something "bluish".
_Sleedoorns_ are blue berries.
The adjective _slee_ "harsh, dull, slow", on the other hand, is related
to English _slow_ (Old English _sla:w_) and Swedish _slö_ (cf. Old Norse
_sljo:r_) and derives from Proto-Germanic _*slaiwa-_.
So even though the noun and the adjective are homonyms and _sleedoorns_
might make your teeth _slee_ (I never tried them), there is no
etymological connection.
Wim also wrote:
>(Doorn is
>een
>oud woord voor boom. Tre in het Scandinavisch is het zelfde woord) (Duur
>is
>ook het zelfde woord. In de betekenis van hard als eikenhout.)
I am not sure if all this is true. _Doorn_ simply means "thorn" and none
of
my etymological dictonaries give "tree" as an older meaning. It is the
same
word as English _thorn_ and Swedish _törne_ (Old Swedish _thörne_). It
is
by no means etymologically related to "Scandinavian" _tre_ (you
probably
mean Norwegian, cf. Danish _træ_, Swedish _träd_, Icelandic _tré_), or
English _tree_. Note the different initial consonants: in older Germanic
languages and in Modern English the words for "thorn" have fricative
_th_ (_þ_) whereas the words for "tree" have _t_.
I do not know _duur_ in the sense of "hard als eikenhout" but its origin
must be Latin _durus_ "hard, solid". I do not have a Latin etymological
dictionary at hand, but _durus_ might be related to Greek words for
"tree"
or "wood" and these might be cognate with English _tree_, Norwegian
_tre_
etc, so there may be a connection. But as Wim already noted, this is
becoming off-topic.
Muriel Norde
</quote>
<quote>
From: niels.winther at dfdsseaways.com
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.05.07 (01) [D/E]
Muriel wrote:
Dutch _slee_ in _sleedoorn_ and the adjective meaning "blunt" appear to
have different origins. The noun _slee_, also meaning 'prune', is
cognate with English _sloe_ , German _Schlehe_, and Swedish _slån_, all
deriving
from a Proto-Germanic root _*slaihwo:n_. .... The adjective _slee_
"harsh,
dull, slow", on the other hand, is related to English _slow_ (Old
English
_sla:w_) and Swedish _slö_ (cf. Old Norse _sljo:r_) and derives from
Proto-Germanic _*slaiwa-_.
So even though the noun and the adjective are homonyms and _sleedoorns_
might make your teeth _slee_ (I never tried them), there is no
etymological
connection.
----------------
Muriel, as I see it, there are two contradictory meanings of the
adjective
<slee> in Dutch and apparently in Low Saxon as well.
1. loom, moe, stomp, bot: dull, slow, tardy, inert, dilatory, missing
it's
goal.
2. wrang: astringent, making your teeth dry and making your mouth
contract.
Astringency is often described as sourness or bitterness, but it is a
taste
by itself, very forceful, very impressive and also including a certain
dryness. Even a cautious tasting of a sloeberry is enough to make your
mouth contract involuntarily. In short there is nothing dull, slow or
dilatory about astringency. As the sloeberry is the mother of all
astringency, I see only this possible connection for the second meaning.
I
suggest that you cautiously taste the sloe (before the frost). Once is
enough. You won't forget.
niels.
----------
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology
slow < Old English _slâw_ 'sluggish'
sloe < Old English _slâ(h)_ "ultimately from an Indo-European word
meaning "bluish," which is also the ancestor of English
_livid_ ..." (Encarta Dictionary)
livid < "15th century. Directly or via Old French from Latin
_lividus_, from _livere_ "to be bluish in color." Ultimately
from an Indo-European word that is also the ancestor of English
_sloe_." (Encarta Dictionary)
(Merriam-Webster give similar explanations.)
I really do not see how 'sluggish' and 'bluish' can be connected, unless
_slâw_ is derived from _slâ(h)_, in which case the supposed morpheme
_-w_ would need to be accounted for.
I wrote:
> Old High German: slêha ~ slêwa
> < Germanic: *slaihwôn
>
> Cf. Slavic 'plum':
> Proto-Slavic *_sliva_, Ukrainian (/slïva/) _slyva_, Russian (/sljíva/)
> _sliva_, Belarus (/sljíva/) _sliva_, Bulgarian (/slíva/) _sliva_,
> Macedonian (/slíva/) _sliva_, Serbo-Croatian (/Slj``iva/) _{s`'}ljiva_,
> Polish (/sjliva/) _{s'}liwa_, Czech (/sliiva/) _slíva_, Slovak (/sliva/)
> _sliva_, Upper Sorbian (dim. /slov(a)+ka/) _slowka_, Lower Sorbian
> (/sliva/) _sliwa_, Polabian (/slaivå/) _slaivo_.
'Slow" is _Prunus spinosa_ "spiny/thorny plum" in Latin, _prunelle_
"little plum" in French (< _prune_ 'plum'). Note also Latvian
_dzelonplûme_ "spiny/thorny plum." In Russian, the fruit is _plod dikoj
slivy_ "fruit of the wild plum," and the plant is called _tjorn_
(related to 'thorn'?). (Similar in Belarusian and Ukrainian.)
'Slow' may also refer to Native American plums (_Prunus alleghaniensis_
and _Prunus americana_).
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
</quote>
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