LL-L "Etymology" 2003.11.22 (02) [D/E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 22.NOV.2003 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Ansgar Fehnker <ansgar at ece.cmu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2003.11.22 (01) [E]

Lowlands-L wrote:

> Ansgar Fehnker (good to hear from him again!) asked (in Dutch) about the
> origin of the (supposedly Dutch) word _Mediene_.  (By the way, we still
need
> an explanation of this word's usage and meaning in Dutch.)  I responded by
> saying that it comes from Yiddish מדי   _medine_ , which is derived from
> Hebrew מדי   _medina_ (actually _mədiynâh_) 'nation', 'state'.  This word
is
> related with Arabic مَدِﯿنَة _madiynah_ (usually spelled <madinah>)
> 'fortress',
> 'citadel', 'city'.

Over het gebruik in het Nederlands kan ik helaas wenig bijdragen.
Vandaar mijn vraag, omdat ik enkele keren de uitdrukking "Mokum en
Medine" tegen kwam, en niet zeker wist waar "Medine" precies op sloeg.
Zou je dus kunnen zeggen dat het gewoon "Stad en Ommeland" betekend, of
betekend het meer specifiek "Amsterdam en de rest van Nederland"?  En
heeft "medine" iets denigrerends?

Groetjes

Ansgar

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Bedankt, beste Ansgar.  Onze geachte Nederlandstalige en -kundige vrienden
kunnen hopelijk verklaren, wat het woord "Medine" en de uitdrukking "Mokum
en Medine" precies aan hen betekenen.  Ik zou niet verrast worden om te
weten te komen dat je veronderstelling ("Stad en Ommeland" = Nedersaksisch
_stad un kuntrey~kuntray_/_stad oen koentreei~koentraai_/<Stadt un
Kuntree/Kuntrei>) correct is.  Misschien betekent het tegenwoordig iets als
"wijd en zijd", "overal", enz.  Dit zou met het gebruik van ×ž×“×™× ×” _medine_
in de oudere Jiddisje uitdrukking ×ž×“×™× ×”Ö¾×’×²×¢×¨ _medine-geyer_
("medine-gaande", "medine-loper", dus vermoedelijk "iemand, die in het
ommeland reist") 'rondtrekkende koopman', 'venter', verenigbaar kunnen zijn.
Ik geloof niet, dat "staat" of "natie" in dit samenhang wordt bedoeld.

Folks, Ansgar said above that he is not sure about the exact meaning of
_Medine_ in Dutch (hence his question), has only come across it in the
expression _Mokum en Medine_ and assumes it means something like "city (=
Amsterdam?) and surrounding areas," or "town and country (= rural area)"
(Lowlands Saxon _stad un kuntrey~kuntray_/<Stadt un Kuntree/Kuntrei>
[_kuntrey/kuntray_ 'country(side)' < French _contrée_).

I responded by saying that our Dutch speakers and experts on the List might
be able to help us here, that Ansgar's guess may well be correct, that
perhaps the expression _Mokum en Medine_ has come to mean something like
"far and wide," "everywhere," etc., that this seems to be consistent with
the use of _×ž×“×™× ×” _medine_ in the more traditional Yiddish expression
×ž×“×™× ×”Ö¾×’×²×¢×¨ _medine-geyer_ ("medine-goer") 'itinerant merchant', 'peddlar'
(in which _medine_ appears to connote "(surrounding) area" or "land" rather
than literally "state" or "nation").

Groeten/regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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