LL-L "Administrativia" 2003.10.04 (11) [E]

Mon Oct 6 00:08:38 UTC 2003

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LLL-L "Administrativia" 2003.10.04 (05) [E/LS]

Fiete told me that the academic dissection of the Lower Saxon language is
just too much for him; he is an active user of the language, not a linguist.
He was feeling rather out of place since he could not contribute on the
academic level like most people do. I must admit I feel the same to some
extent; practical, "down-to-earth" contributions are often ignored. I'm not
a linguist myself, although I work as a translator; I'm really a zoologist.
But it's my love for languages that keeps me here.

To me, Lower Saxon is a very intimate, "private" language, and sometimes all
this scientific poking around - and especially the call for a spelling
convention - feels like someone is going through my grandmother's dresser
drawers.

Maybe this is even one of the reasons for the decline of language such as
Lower Saxon, Scots or Welsh. They are strictly for use within the family and
among old friends - or that's how it feels - and, with our society getting
more mobile all the time, are jealously kept from those who are not near and
dear to our hearts - to the point of dying out. They are "insider"
languages, and very few people now live among the people they grew up with.

When I lived in the USA, I always cringed when someone told someone else "I
love you" loudly and in public - spouses, parents, children, friends, in
person, on the phone, you name it. Some people even end every phone
conversation that way. To a German, this is worse than seeing people run
around naked; it is a very private statement that should never be overheard.
I can imagine that many people feel the same way about their minority
dialects.

Gabriele Kahn

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From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Administrativia

Thanks for sharing the above, Gabriele.  Fiete told me pretty much that,
though I did not feel at liberty to pass it on without his permission.

Thanks also for explaining your personal feelings.  Obviously there is no
right and no wrong here, just personal interests, feelings, attitudes and
expectations.  As things stand at the moment, there is no fit-all solution
either -- too few specialized resources.   A single forum that is designed
to cast its net widely cannot cater to all people with divergent
backgrounds, views and expectations, especially if they are not so much
interested in the *group* of languages and cultures as much as in a specific
language and/or culture.  As it is, this forum is rather open and adabtable
as far as discussion lists go.  It so happens that subscribers with more
"scientific" interests tend to be more vocal, which does not mean that
"non-scientific" contributions are unwelcome.  Perhaps a chat group would be
more suitable for people who simply want to "talk" in and about a certain
language without "dissecting" it.  Mailing lists tend to be more "serious."
I know of a number of long-time subscribers that joined us with little of no
"specialist" knowledge but were sufficiently and seriously interested in the
subject to acquire enough knowledge -- on and off the list -- to follow and
participate in discussions, realizing that a serious interest requires a
certain amount of learning.

I understand that some of the discussions may come across as intimidating
gobbledigook to some.  However, rest assured that most of us -- and I can
say this for sure about myself -- deliberately tone down the specialist
jargon and often intersperse the "heavy" stuff with "lighter" explanations.
Besides, non-specialists are always welcome to ask for help if they are
really interested, can at least be guided to resources that can help them
along, and I would never allow them to be shamed for it.  (For instance, I
have never formally studied history of architectural styles, but Pat's
contributions about Dutch building features motivated me to at least read up
on some of it.)  In fact, Fiete was one of the few that did ask quite a few
times, and I and others gave him a lot of credit for it and explained things
to him in layman's terms, after which he would often express delight at
having learned something new and now seeing the bigger picture.  Actually, I
believe he did learn a lot, and he told me he did.  It was only whenever he
realized that his engrained, purely emotionally based opposing views had no
scientific foundation and could therefore be easily shot out of the water by
the naughty "scientists" that he got frustrated and went on anti-science and
anti-dictionary rants.  I don't think anyone here thought the worse of him
for that -- and in his own way he is a likable character after all --
although he may have occasionally tried the odd person's patience when he
reverted to what previously he had said he had understood to be incorrect.

We try to accommodate as many views and expectations as possible.  If
expectations are not met it is oftentimes because they have not been
expressed.  If a posting does not meet with the expectated resonance, well,
that's how the cookie sometimes crumbles, and it does so for all of us once
in a while.  This in itself ought not be seen as personal rejection.  As you
well know, not everything here is "heavy."   It is not as though playful
banter and lighter and personal writing are unheard of around here.

I dare say that all of us have our own personal relationships with the
languages and cultures we inherited, love, are interested in and/or wish to
study.  Again, there is no right or wrong, though this may be hard to
believe when viewed from one extreme to the other.  At one extreme you get
people who wish to keep their threatened languages alive and give them what
they think is their rightful place, and they believe that knowledge,
including scientific knowledge, is power and their "dissection" leads to
remedies.  At  the other extreme you get those who simply want to enjoy the
last sounds of the old language as it is lingering on its deathbed -- death
is deemed inevitable, and no life-support and resuscitation attempts are
wanted.  Can the two extremes coexist within the same forum without any
resentments and condemnations?  One extreme will inevitably rub the other
the wrong way.  This is all the more so when it comes to a subject like
language, something that can and always will be studied scientifically
(which by many, especially in Europe, is viewed with suspicion) but at the
same time is deemed almost etherial, purely emotional and intangible, if not
even sacrosanct or, as you stated, "personal," by other people.  (Of course,
there is the distinct possibility that language is all of the above.)   It
is my believe that disagreements are inevitable but that peaceful
coexistence is possible if tolerance and an overriding attitude of ...
(oops! I nearly said "love"!) ... appreciation and cameraderie prevails.
Obviously this requires that finger-pointing and moral judgement of other
people's views, languages and cultures be avoided, at least kept to a
minimum, in this forum that is meant to bring people together.  By and
large, this seems to have been the case so far, in close to nine years.

So, thanks for your support, everyone!
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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