LL-L "Syntax" 2004.04.21 (04) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 21.APR.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Reuben Epp <reuben at silk.net>
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.04.20 (01) [E/LS/German]

> From: Jan Strunk <strunkjan at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Syntax
>
> Dear speakers of Low Saxon,
>
> here I come again with another question.
> This time it is mostly about Plautdietsch but I am always
> happy about information about other dialects as well.
>
> In the bible translation into Plautdietsch, I have found the following two
> examples of possessive constructions.
>
> 17 Oba Gott sie Dank daut jie {de Sind Sklowe} weare , oba jie sent fonn
> Hoate jehuarsaum jewast to dee Leah dee junt jebrocht wort .
>
> 14 Jie sent jesaeajent wan aundre junt waejen Christus sien Nome schele ,
> wiel daut meent daut {dee Jeist de Harlichkjeit en fonn Gott} opp ju rut.
>
> My question is whether "de Sind Sklowe" is a natural way to say this in
> Plautdietsch, or whether "de Sklowe fonn de Sind" or
> something like that would rather be used. The same for "dee Jeist de
> Harlichkjeit", does this sound like natural Plautdietsch to you? If yes,
how
> often are such constructions used in the spoken language?
>
> My second question concerns examples like the following two:
>
> 20 dan derch de {Jesatses Woakje} woat kjeen Mensch fer Gott jeracht
> jesproake woare
>
> 2 Dan daut {Jeistes Jesats} daut Laewe brinjt enn Christus Jesus haft mie
> frie jemoakt fonn daut Jesats fonn Sind en Doot.
>
> Do you think "Jesatses Woakje" is one word like "Jesatsbook" or two words
> "the deeds of the law"?
> What about "daut Jeistes Jesats"?
>
> My last question is about what prepositions (i.e. words like fonn, fea,
in,
> bi, etc.) can be used to indicate possession.
> Most of the time the preposition "von" is used in the dialects of Low
Saxon:
>
> daut Enj fonnet Jesats (the end of the law)
>
> However, I have also found the following example in the Plautdietsch
Bible:
>
> 3 Es dit nich dee Temmamaun , Marie aea Saen , {en Brooda aun Jakoobus ,
en
> Jooses , en Judas , en Siemoon} ?
>
> Is this construction with "aun" as in "en Brooda aun Jakoobus" often used
in
> Plautdietsch?
> Are there other dialects of Low Saxon that have this possibility or can
even
> use other prepositions?
>
> Thank you for all responses!
>
> Jan Strunk
> jstrunk at stanford.edu

Reuben Epp  reuben at silk.net
replies 20th April 2004:

Jan,

I wonder whether you realize how 'loaded' your questions are.
Let me explain that the speakers of Plautdietsch in various groups
are widely scattered throughout the Old and New World. This
scattering has contributed to some very pronounced variations in
word usage, pronunciations and word orders (sentence
construction) in the spoken and written word among various
groups.

These variations have been further compounded by a severe
lack of recorded literature over the centuries in Prussia and
Russia. The oldest written Plautdietsch in my possession is
contained in articles that appeared in the "Odessaer" newspaper
in 1883. The Plautdietsch of those articles is easily read by
someone with my proficiency, developed over 50 years of
working on it. But, the Plautdietsch in the articles is not the
same as mine. My Plautdietsch speech is that of Mennonites
who immigrated to the United States and Canada from the
Molotschna Colony (just north of the Sea of Azov) in the
Ukraine during the 1870's.

When you begin to analyze and compare the Plautdietsch of
the most-recently published (2003) version of the Bible, one
should be aware that the committee that authored this version
was assigned the creation of a version of the Bible aimed at
a particular target group, mostly Old Colony [conservative]
Mennonites in Mexico and Bolivia among others countries.

Therefore this Plautdietsch version of the Bible is written for
easiest readability and ready acceptibility among probably
fewer than 20% of Plautdietsch speakers worldwide.
Although I read it easily and well, it is simply not Plautdietsch
as I know it. Very little of it is written as I would speak and
write it.

These comments are not intended to argue against a good
work. But, they are to inform readers that although the 2003-4
Bible is Plautdietsch, it is by no means representative of a
majority of its speakers.

In conclusion, I want to help others understand and enjoy
the use of Plautdietsch. But, I question that my participation
in answering your questions would or could shed much light
on the overall (confused?) picture of Plautdietsch in its many
variations. Possessive forms are only a small portion of them.

Cheers!
Reuben Epp

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