LL-L "Syntax" 2004.04.28 (04) [E]

Wed Apr 28 19:38:46 UTC 2004

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From: Heiko Evermann <Heiko.Evermann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.04.28 (02) [E]

Hi Jan,

>>1) een Manns Dochter
>>Is this a possible phrase in your dialect and can it mean:
>>a) the daughter of one specific man
>>b) the daughter of any man in general
>>
I would say that it means the daughter of one man, but the man is not
specified. But I cannot think of a whole sentence where this passage
would be used. To me it sounds strange.
I would prefer "düssen Mann sien Dochter" to denote the daughter of a
man that was named before. What sense would it make to say "she is a
man's daughter". Of course she is. If she is a daughter, then she has
parents. Somehow it does not make sense.

>>2) ne Manns Dochter
>>Is this this a possible phrase in your dialect and what would it mean?
>>a) the daughter of one specific man
>>b) the daughter of any man in general
>>
I would shorten een to 'n and not to ne.

>2. Can you say things like: "de Minschen all ehr Larm" meaning "all the
>noise of the people"?
>e.g. "de Minschen all ehr Larm bruust in mien Ohr"?
>
I would prefer "den Minschen all ehr Lärm".

Kind regards,

Heiko Evermann
(Hamburg)

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Syntax

Moyen, Jan!

> 1) een Manns Dochter
> Is this a possible phrase in your dialect and can it mean:

Barely.  I would consider it a German-influenced version of _een/'n Mann
sien Dochter_ or _de Dochter vun een/'n Mann_.

> a) the daughter of one specific man
> b) the daughter of any man in general

Both.  Depending on the context; e.g.,
a) Een Manns Dochter keem tosamen mit ähr Kinner bi't Sükenhuus an.
   [Eyn/'n Mans dochter keym tousamen mit eer kinder by 't süyken-huus an.]
   'A/One man's daughter arrived at the hospital along with her children.'
   (We are talking about a certain male patient's daughter.)

b) Een Manns Dochter steiht em neger as sien Söhn.
   [Eyn/'n Mans dochter stayt em neyger as syn söön.]
   'A man's daughter is closer to him than his son.'
   (We are talking -- rightly or wrongly -- about all men's daughters.)

In either case, _een/'n Mann sien Dochter_ (_eyn/'n man syn dochter_) or _de
Dochter vun een/'n Mann_ (_dey dochter vun eyn/'n man_) would be more
"authentic."

> 2) ne Manns Dochter

Ungrammatical, unless it's a neologism: *_Mannsdochter_ *"men's daughter" (a
hitherto unrecognized category of daughter, as opposed to a *_Froonsdochter_
*"women's daughter," or a daughter cloned from two women ...)

> In my corpus I have found an interesting example from Plautdietsch:
> daut Jeistes Jesats --> the law of the spirit
>
> I would analyze this as a compound noun, i.e. Jeistes Jesats is one word.

So would I.  In fact, I think that's the only way you can understand it,
since _Jeist_ 'spirit', 'ghost' (< German _Geist_, replacing native _geyst_
<Geest> ~ <Jeest>) has masculine gender and thus does not take the article
_dat_ ~ _daut_, but _dey_ (<de>).  _Jesats_ 'law' (< German _Gesetz_,
replacing nativized _geset_ <Gesett> ~ *<Jesett> or native _wet_ <Wett>) has
neuter gender and thus takes _dat_ ~ _daut_.  So it is "the law of the
spirit" or "the spirit (= spiritual) law."

This may very well be based on Middle Saxon _des geestes geset/wet_ 'the law
of (the) spirit', "contaminated" by rules of nominal compounding, hence what
I consider erroneous: a compound written in the form of separate nouns.

Note that biblical/ ecclesiastic speech modes tend to abound with archaisms
and that, on top of it, the spelling of many writers of Mennonite Lowlands
Saxon (Plautdietsch) is influenced by English, which favors orthographic
separation of compound noun components.

> To test this, it would be interesting to know whether any of the following
> would
> be possible phrases in Plautdietsch:
>
> 1. daut fauste Jeistes Jesats
Only if spelled _daut fauste Jeistesjesats_

> 2. daut Jeistes fauste Jesats
Nope, but possibly archaic _des Jeistes faust Jesats_.

> 3. daut Jeistes faustet Jesats
Nope, but possibly archaic _des Jeistes faustet Jesats_.

Hope this helps.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From: Jan Strunk <strunkjan at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.04.28 (03) [E]

Hello,

thanks very interesting. Thanks for the information.
I had the impression that in East Frisian at least,
the "hör" always stays uninflected....

Vüeln Dank!

Jan Strunk
jstrunk at stanford.edu

> From: Heinrich Becker <heinrich.becker at gmx.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.04.28 (02) [E]
>
> Hi to all, especially to Jan Strunk,
>
> along the Dutch German border line from Friesland to Münsterland you can
> find the use of the
>  word" höre, öhre, har"  ( English: her or their ) in their local
dialects:
>  as singular - they don't use genitive form - , as well as in plural:
>
> singular: Marie höre (öhre ) dochter   = Mary's daughter
> plural: Schulte Piepenbrink öhre (höre ) blagen  =  Sch.P.'s kids
>
> In plural they use sometimes both forms: Schulte Piepenbrinks öhre...
> I suggest, the last one is influenced by High German.

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