LL-L "Syntax" 2004.04.30 (02) [E/LS]

[Lowlands-L]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Jan Strunk <strunkjan at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.04.29 (03) [E]

Hello,

Ron wrote:
> > Does this get better if you use the following?
> > "Hinnerks öldste Kinner"
> > "mien Vadders öldste Kinner"
>
> Hmmm ... not quite, not in *my* book.  The adjectival suffix _-e_ can only
> be used in case of indefinite plural forms; e.g. _öldste Kinner_
'(some/any)
> oldest children' (as opposed to definite _de öldsten Kinner_ 'the oldest
> children').  All definite cases take the plural suffix _en_, and this
> includes _mien öldsten Kinner_ 'my oldest children', not *_mien öldste
> Kinner_), (*) _Hinnerks öldsten Kinner_ ~ _Hinnerk sien öldsten Kinner_
> 'Hinnerk's oldest children'.
> I'm not totally sure with regard to the constructions with genitive _-s_.
> They sound barely marginally acceptable with _-e_ with _Hinnerk_ and _mien
> Vadder_, not with _mien_, perhaps a tad better than with _-en_, and I'm
not
> sure why.  As I said, this is too marginal for me anyway.  I would always
> use constructions with X sien Y or Y vun X.
I thought it might be better because the inflection of adjectives after X-s
possessive
phrase seems to vary in the Germanic languages. In German at least,
the strong form is used: "mein schöner Garten". "Susis schöner Garten".
"Susis älteste Kinder", etc.

Sorry to keep asking but I'd be extremely thankful to get an answer from any
Low Saxon speakers
about whether the following are ok:
"All den Mann siene Kinner sünd nu al groot".
"All mien Vadder siene Frünne sünd kamen."

Vüeln Dank!

Jan Strunk
jstrunk at stanford.edu

P.S.: Ron, I really liked your translation of Tam.

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From: Jan Strunk <strunkjan at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.04.29 (03) [E]

Hello,

here I am again.... asking weird questions about Low Saxon.
(Ron, please give me a warning in case I am about to be banned from
the list, that wouldn't be worth it....)

Anyway, I have several small questions for all speakers of Low Saxon again:

I assume that the following is a grammatical sentence:
1. "Hest du unsen all seihn? (Have you already seen ours?)

Could 2 mean the same, i.e. "seen ours" instead of "seen us", maybe
with a special intonation....?
2. "Hest du uns all seihn?"

How about the following sentences do the sound ok (I don't mean my spelling
or pronunciation):
Hinnerk un Anna hebbt beid twee Kinner.
Sien / Sient op de Bank dor is all twee Johr old. (His child on the bench is
already two years old.)
Ehr / Ehrt in de Sandkuhl is all öller. (Her child in the sandbox is already
older.)

Sien / Sient dat ik good kenn is all twee Johr old. (His child that I know
well is already two years old.)

Dat op de Bank dor is all twee Johr old. (The child on the bench is already
two years old.)
Dat in de Sandkuhl is all öller. (The child in the sandbox is already
older.)

Vüeln Dank un beste Gröten!

Jan Strunk
jstrunk at stanford.edu

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Syntax

Hi, Jan!

> I thought it might be better because the inflection of adjectives after
X-s
> possessive
> phrase seems to vary in the Germanic languages. In German at least,
> the strong form is used: "mein schöner Garten". "Susis schöner Garten".
> "Susis älteste Kinder", etc.

Right.  It occurred to me later that that might be the reason why the
*_Hinnerks öldste Kinner_,
and *_mien Vadders öldste Kinner_ sounded "sort of acceptable" to me, but
then not when getting back into the LS groove.

> "All den Mann siene Kinner sünd nu al groot".
> "All mien Vadder siene Frünne sünd kamen."

They sound structurally fine to me, though I personally would say _sien_.
(Some dialects retain more suffixes than others.)

_Frünne_ sounds wrong to me (influenced by German _Freunde_), though it may
well be acceptable in some dialects.  For me it's _Frünnen_ (_vründen_)
'friends', in normal speech mode pronounced [frY.n], in more deliberate mode
[frY.n:].

> I assume that the following is a grammatical sentence:
> 1. "Hest du unsen all seihn? (Have you already seen ours?)

It is to me (with the Invaeonic variant _usen_).

> Could 2 mean the same, i.e. "seen ours" instead of "seen us", maybe
> with a special intonation....?
> 2. "Hest du uns all seihn?"

Not to me.

I am not aware of an emphatic version of _uns_ ~ _us_ 'us', 'our', along the
lines of emphatic _ikke_ (<icke>) based on non-emphatic _ik_ 'I' in Lowlands
Saxon (Low German) and Dutch.

> Sien / Sient op de Bank dor is all twee Johr old. (His child on the bench
is
> already two years old.)
> Ehr / Ehrt in de Sandkuhl is all öller. (Her child in the sandbox is
already
> older.)
>
> Sien / Sient dat ik good kenn is all twee Johr old. (His child that I know
> well is already two years old.)

These sound alien to me.  I would understand them if someone said them, and
I would assume it's a "weird" dialect.

> Dat op de Bank dor is all twee Johr old. (The child on the bench is
already
> two years old.)
> Dat in de Sandkuhl is all öller. (The child in the sandbox is already
> older.)

These sound fine to me.

> (Ron, please give me a warning in case I am about to be banned from
> the list, that wouldn't be worth it....)

Nah, no warning for you before the army boot hits you in the behind!  ;-)
Seriously, though, research is one of the purposes of the List.  If someone
has long lists of specific and "tedious" research questions, I suggest they
post initial solicitation on the List to create an informant pool, and then
move the nitty-gritty to off-list communication.

Good luck!
Reinhard/Ron

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