LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.12 (06) [E]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.11 (07) [E]

> From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
> Subject: Language varieties [E]
>
> Bill Wigham <redbilly2 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.10 (02) [E]
>>
>>  Great Grandpa was a "Yorkshirebite" as granny used to say, as a
>> gentle
> warning not to do
>> business with Yorkshiremen.  She had his sugar bowl bearing the
> inscription,
>> "If thee does aught for naught, do it for th'sel' ".
>>
> I have a tea mug, a gift from my former mother in law, with almost the
> same text on it. On my mug it says "And if thee ever does aught for
> naught, allus do it for thisen". The picture and the rest of the text
> is
> about a Yorshireman teaching his son. However, I haven't been able yet
> to figure out its meaning. Can you enlighten me there?
>
> regards,
> Henry
Hi,
The first thing that  comes in my Flemish mind is:
En ai gy ooit  iets doet vo' niets, doe't ton voô den dezen;
meanning: And if you ever do anything for free, then do it for him/her
(who gave this to you)
Groetjes
luc vanbrabant
oekene

----------

From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: language varieties

John

On the Yorkshire/Lancs language usage, your right
'thee' was used 'further north' in places such as
Northumberland but is rapidly disappearing. You still
hear people say 'me en thee' (me and you) a fair bit.
'Thisel or thysel' I haven't heard up here in
contemporary times. We tend to say 'yahsel'. As you
say, Northumbrians use 'nowt and owt' rather than
naught or aught.

My experience of Yorkshire, where I go at lot, is that
unfortunately most of the dialect is virtually dead,
apart from in certain areas. Suspect the same in
Lancs.

Keep ahaad,
Glenn Simpson
Northumbrian Language Society

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From: john feather <johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Language varieties

Kevin wrote:

"Keep in mind that the KJV with which we are most familiar is the mid-18th
century revision (I forget the year, but I want to say 1757).  The 1611 KJV
is much more difficult to read, but still easier than Shakespeare."

It's difficult to check negatives but he may be referring to the Revised
Version (RV) published in the 1880s. I think "King James Version" is the
normal US designation of what UK protestants most often call the "Authorised
Version" and that the RV is used in the US more than in England. Not to be
confused with the Revised English Bible (a revision of the New English
Bible) published in 1989.  Of course, the AV was never "authorised" by
anyone.

The AV relied heavily on Tyndale's translations (final revision of his NT by
him 1535) and Tyndale relied heavily on Luther. I'm now wondering whether
the AV's archaic style is simply the result of sticking closely to Tyndale's
older English and perhaps his use of certain Greek structures. More research
required.

John Feather
johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk

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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.11 (14) [E]


John Duckworth wrote:
"The difference between _th'sel_ ( _thisel_ might be more correct?) and
_thisen_ is quite interesting. They are equivalent to _thyself_ in Standard
English, and reflect the usage of different areas of Yorkshire. In my area
of Lancashire (and I think I am right in saying the whole of the county) we
_thisel'_ was always used, and I used to associate the pronunciation
_thisen_ with Yorkshire speech. Later I discovered that some areas of
Yorkshire use the same word as we did."

Most of Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire uses _sen_ not _sel_ for the _self_
suffix. I don't see it as peculiar to Yorkshire, although there are strong
similarities (at least to my ear) between north Nottinghamshire and south
Yorkshire speech. Indeed, anywhere north of Mansfield sounds 'Yorkshire; to
me, just as west Derbyshire is very close to Mancunian and Lancastrian forms
of speech. For the record, the current Nottingham English version of the
proverb would be _Yever do oat for noat, mind teh do it fer yehsen_. Older
folk would perhaps say _thasen_ or _thisen_ but it depended on what part of
the area they were from.

Criostóir.

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.11 (04) [E]

Dear Erik:

Subject: Old Norse & Old English

I hope it is not too late to respond:

> considering the fact that Scandinavians and Englishmen
> understood one another at the times of the Vikings much like Swedes and
> Danes understand one another today (if they are willing to).

I once asked this very question of the late Prof. Abercrombie of St.
Andrews.
He very firmly asserted that this was not so. He said it was, however,
extremely likely that a Norseman of even only moderately well-to-do-family
had contact with Saxon or English (Continental or Island) slaves in the
household - possibly even a nursemaid. & he pointed out that the Norsemen
were even more often traders than raiders, dealing with customers in their
own tongue. Reading Aegill's Saga among others only supports his assertion.
The same applied in the other direction, at least among aristocratic houses.
When Alfred snuck into a Norseman's Hall & played the Harp for largesse,
remember they were at war, a difference of dialect, even of accent, would
have betrayed him. He had to sing pure Norse, convincingly. There were
others on the same side who played the same trick.

Certainly the difference was a good deal greater than between Landmal &
Swedish. For my part, cursary study of Icelandic, which I am trying, makes
it plain that my Old English is of little help if not none at all!

Incidentally, in the same Aegill's Saga, the author declared that the
Scottish Kingdom was by that time (The sack of Berwick) almost half Norse,
not from invasion, but because of the Scottish Aristocracy marrying into the
Norse Aristocracy.

> It is also hard to avoid Scandinavian on this list as Scandinavian words
> keeps popping up. Recently for example 'edderkop' (spider) and 'have'
> (garden) (Danish) and 'gardstun' (the area around the farm(houses)
> (Norwegian).

Agreed!

Yrs,
Mark

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From: john feather <johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Language varieties

Since John Duckworth lives in Lancashire perhaps he could help me with the
following.

About 25 years ago, visiting Fleetwood, I first heard the usage "I never go
there, me", where "me" is obviously an intensifier. I suppose in posh
English we might say "I myself ...". I took it to be a local idiom but
nowadays it seems to be a fairly common feature of Universal Demotic English
(ie what people learn from watching TV soaps). Is it actually a northern
expression originally?

I think perhaps we ought to tell people that "thisen" is pronounced
"thi-sen" and not like "thissun" in the Westerns: stress on the second
syllable, not the first.

John Feather, London
johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: "Language varieties" [E]

> From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
> Subject: Language varieties [E]
>
> I have a tea mug, a gift from my former mother in law, with almost the
> same text on it. On my mug it says "And if thee ever does aught for
> naught, allus do it for thisen". The picture and the rest of the text is
> about a Yorshireman teaching his son. However, I haven't been able yet
> to figure out its meaning. Can you enlighten me there?

I have such a mug with "The Yorkshireman's Advice to His Son" stated more
fully:

See all, hear all, say nowt.
Eat all, drink all, pay nowt.
And if ever tha does owt for nowt,
Allus do it for thisen.

This means:

See all, hear all, say nothing.
Eat all, drink all, pay nothing.
And if ever you do anything for nothing,
Always do it for yourself.

> From: Camillo Bastrup <camillo_bastrup at operamail.com>
> Subject: KJV to Brer Rabbit
>
> > Just read some wonderfully interesting posts, on my first day in the
> group, was wondering if there has been any connections made between Dorset
&
> 'Gullah'? The mention of the readability comparisons with the King James
> Version, and it's Authorised Revision (1856?)to Shakespeare, etc. It was
> William Barnes, the Vicar of Dorset, who was called in to do the work on
the
> 'Thee & Thou'(s) aspect of the Bible as a grammarian. Now what we would
like

Interesting - Barnes's Dorset dialect would generally be of the kind that
uses "thee" for "thou and "thee" both. This usage, I think, is probably the
origin of  the American "Quaker" speech where "thee" is also used
indiscriminately.

> to find out is if there is a way to prove that his work "Dorset" can show
us
> that the American dialects (perhaps 'Gullah'?)which were used in "Uncle
> Remus" stories that later became the basis for the Disney "Song of the
> South" (song: "Zippedy Doo Dah")

I've never heard of "Gullah" but as I often argue on the list, Appalachian
speech is mostly characterised by features from the English of the south
west of England - this includes Barnes's Dorset. It's not "Scotch-Irish"
English at all.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

----------

From: SBoyo48314 at aol.com <SBoyo48314 at aol.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.11 (14) [E]

I'm surprised that not much is often said about the peculair links between
English and the North Germanic (Scandinavian) languages given the huge
influence the Scandinavians (Danish and Norwgian) have had not only in
settling England but in shaping the structure and form of the English
language as it is today and what gives it that clear distinction from other
lowlands languages.

Taking out the myriad latinate and french borrowings English is basically a
fusion of Anglo-saxon (low german) and Scandinavian. Or am I wrong??

Regards
Steve
[Steve Boyd]

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