LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.16 (05) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 16.AUG.2004 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: "Language varieties" [E]

>
> From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: language varieties
>
> While I accept some of the commentary about the
> doubtfulness of closeness of links between Old/Modern
> English & Frisian, there are clearly some. On the
> Bryson quote, you still hear older people in
> Northumberland say 'whet time ist? (What time is it?),
> sometimes shortened to just 'time ist'.

But this isn't anything to do with Anglian, Frisian nor even the "ist" of
Highland German: it's simply the contraction of "is it" to "is't".

We have many contractions of "it" to "'t" in Scots, eg:

What time is't?
(What time is it?)

What will ye tak for't?
(What will you take for it?)

That's the last I heard o't.
(That's the last I heard of it.)

He wis fair awa wi't.
(He was well pleased with it.)

Ye micht hae thocht on't.
(You might have thought of it.)

See's't! /sist/
(Give it to me!)

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.14 (02) [E]

Dear John, Glenn, & All:

Subject: Language Varieties

> I wrote "Anglo-Saxon or Old English is not Low German". Mark replied:
>
> "I beg to differ. 'Old Saxon' is manifestly ancestral to modern Saxon
> dialects, whose 'Low German' status is not open to challenge. ... By the
> way, Isn't 'The Fall of the Angels' representative of Continental
> Old Saxon? If so, then I for one see it as a close, indeed, intimate,
> relation to Insular Anglo-Saxon."

I stand by my thesis. The Venerable Beade records that three Continental
Peoples came together to form the Old English, the Angels, from Angeln, the
Saxons from (the real) Saxony, & the Jutes, from Jutland. All these peoples
spoke what qualify today as Low Germanic languages. So, inevitably, also
does their derivatives, including Anglo-Saxon. Incidentally, the Anglian &
Northumbrian dialects are significantly closer to Afrikaans & of course
modern English, than the Anglo Saxon of Alfred's Court, notably in the case
of the selection of the prefixes be-, ge-, her-, on(t)-, & for(ver)
(brackets for the Afrikaans).

> According to the note in Sweet's "Anglo-Saxon Reader" (1967 edition) "The
> Fall of the Angels" is a translation of an Old Saxon original (a verse
> rendering based loosely on Genesis) of which only part has been preserved.
> Some OS words and usages are retained in the OE/AS text and the OS may
have
> AS influences so "Fall" is not necessarily a good basis for judging the
> similarity of the two languages.

You have me there.

I believe that "Heliand" ("The Saviour")
> which was written by an unknown poet at the instigation of Ludwig der
Fromme
> (Louis the Pious) in about 800 CE is the longest and most typical piece of
> writing in OS.

Agreed. & I aver an Anglian or Northumbrian would have had no difficulty
following it. Anyhow, thanks for your support!

> Mark also wrote: "The Northern English dialects have so much,
grammatically
> & terminologically, in common
> with Continental Low German dialects (it seems to me) & Afrikaans
> (definitely), that I fail to see where, or how, you would draw the
> demarcation line, without cutting out North English dialects."
>
> I don't really get this. Isn't the characteristic feature of Northern
> English dialects the admixture of Scandinavian terms? I can't see that
this
> would be shared by Afrikaans.

John, you will surely concede that Scandinavian terms are not the sole
feature of Northern English dialects!
The rest, the remaining Anglian, are far more than a mere substrate, or I
wouldn't follow so much of it. It is not necessary for you to see it; I see
it.

> Old English is the language (or group of languages) which developed in
> England and what is now Southern Scotland after the Anglo-Saxon invasions
> and persisted until around 1100 CE. Old Saxon is a language which was used
> by the Saxon people of the Continent and developed ultimately into Modern
> Low Saxon. They plausibly had a common ancestor around 500 CE (?) but we
> don't know anything about it. Given our ignorance on this point it seems
> reasonable to me to use the historical criteria to define them.

Old Saxon is a language which was used by The Saxon people of the Continent
& the Island of Britain which they settled.They definitely had a common
ancestor around 500 CE, & thanks to comparative philology, we know a
(camparatively) fair amount about it. but more to the point, the poet of
Beowulf knew it, & stroked his Mercian hosts' egos with their Continental
Saxon ancestry! (The Great Offa).
What historical criteria, apart from that somewhat over-used term, Low
German? I don't say there are none, in fact I seem to be using more than
you, so please itemise the contraries.

> Old Saxon links with lowlands languages  - there has
> been a lot of discussion about old saxon/old english
> links to modern lowlands languages. Where does the
> 'Anglo' bit of Anglo-Saxon fit into things?
> Northumbrian, Scots etc supposedly evolved mainly from
> the Anglian branch of old anglo-saxon/English,
> although I suspect that changes during the Middle
> English period are just as important. Of course the
> term 'english' itself comes 'ang-lish'.

Yrs Sincerely,
Mark

----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.15 (04) [E]

Dear John Duckworth

Subject: Language Varieties

> In order to demonstrate that Old English and Frisian had a common ancestry
> we need to compare contemporary (or near-contemporary) forms of the same
> languages.

Who said this? It is surely not the only way, & certainly not the best.
The boffins will look for the oldest records of both languages in preferance
to almost anything else, & opinion derived, such as for example, for
Proto-indo-Germanic, from extrapolation from later languages, carries
forever, like the mark of Cain, the " * ", (I have sinned! - philologically
speaking!)

> The Old English _guma_ had a cognate in the Old Frisian _goma_ , though it
> is true that other Germanic languages also had this word ( Gothic _guma_ ;
> Old Norse _gumi_ ; Old High German _gomo_ ).

In Middle English last the word was recorded, as in 'Sir Gawain & the grene
guma'.
In Afrikaans we still say 'bruidegom' although the word 'gom - _xom_' is
lost.
We also say 'werwolf' though the word 'wer - _Ve:r_' is lost.

Yrs,
Mark

----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.14 (04) [E]

Dear Ron, John & All,

Subject: Language Varieties

> Lowlands Saxon (North Saxon):
> "What time is it?" =
> Wat is dey klok? (<Wat is de Klock?>)
"What o'clock is't?" (wot @:uklok izt)
Shakespearian English (Julius Caeser)

Regards,
Mark

----------

From: john feather <johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk>>
Subject: Language varieties

Thanks, Henno and Ron, about asking the time in Frisian, etc. I'll see if I
can find out more about this mysterious tongue. Amongst Menke's publications
I found one referring to North Frisian but he seems to have been interested
in all the languages of the area.

The quotation I gave suggested that 'What ist de clock?' 'makes sense' to an
English speaker. I suppose Frisian 'Hoe let is it?' could 'make sense' to
someone whose pronunciation of the vowel in 'late' is closer to [e] than the
standard [ei]. (Forgive the crudity of the representation.) So there's a lot
of flexibility in the time-asking situation. But it also occurs to me that
'What ist de clock?' approximates 'What is't o'clock?', which I think is a
genuine older form though I can't date it, and I wonder if that's what Menke
had in mind. This similarity depends, of course, on the false friendship of
'ist de' and 'is't o''.

I'm not sure whether John Duckworth is extending my argument about Frisian
and OE or contradicting it. Just to be clear, my point was about trying to
understand OE on the basis of ModFr. There is no doubt that OE and OFr were
closely related.

Maybe not everybody will get John's reference to the alleged survival of OE
"guma" in "By gum!", which is generally accepted as a minced oath standing
for "By God!". Deriving it from "guma" therefore _appears_ to be folk
etymology. But is there evidence for the connexion?

Re Pat's quotation from T Pratchett: I actually heard an astronomer on TV,
talking about the ultimate fate of the Sun and the Earth in a few billion
years' time, saying that there were several different theories and "We'll
just have to wait and see"!

John Feather
johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk

================================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
======================================================================