LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.22 (06) [E]
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Mon Aug 23 00:10:39 UTC 2004
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From: GoodbyColumbus at aol.com <GoodbyColumbus at aol.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.22 (01) [E]
In a message dated 8/22/04 1:31:35 PM Central Daylight Time,
lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net writes:
From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: "Language varieties" [E]
> From: simon <simon at putitinabin.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.08.20 (04) [E]
>
> I come from Southampton (not far from Portsmouth) where the local accent
> doesn't use the usual southern pronunciations: 'barth' for bath or
'glarss'
> instead of glass etc but something more like 'baath' and 'glaass' ie a
Not "baaf"? This th > f is the one very non-WestCountry accent feature I
always notice in Southampton.
> longer 'a'. It's always struck me that this was a little more like the
> American pronunciation of the letter 'a' than other English accents.
Just
a
> thought.
I always say that the main characterictics of American English speech are
derived from the southwestern dialects of England (Somerset, Dorset,
Wiltshire, Gloucestershire, Hampshire and some of Oxfordshire) so it
doesn't
surprise me.
Sandy
http://scotstext.org/
Can you go further with that argument? Which 'American English speech' do
you mean?
Brad
Brad [E. Conatser]
----------
From: john feather <johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Language varieties
You can read a facsimile of the First Folio of Shakespeare's plays (printed
1623) on the internet. Line 1110 at the end of Act 2 of J Caesar is "What
is't a Clocke?" (Same at Line 1171). This is presumably the "a" we find in
"asleep", etc, and not the same thing as the "o'" in "o'clock" if this is
derived from "of the clock". But it seems a bit odd for the etymologists to
trace "o'clock" only back to 1647 on this basis. I bet lots of people kept
on saying "a clocke" long after 1647 or even 1720: I suspect I still do,
phonetically, but in addition "a-" still persists in common use in Eng
dialects, I think, not to mention Westerns: "I'm a-going". The common herd
(people, not steers) didn't know that posh people were writing "o'clock",
which seems at least as likely to be a hypercorrect form of "a-clock" as a
corruption of "of the clock". Of course the concise etymological
dictionaries only tell us the first known occurrence of a word in written
form, not how common it was even there.
Thanks Niels. Please excuse my Dan spelling: I've been translating a Swed
text for
what seems like eternity and didn't notice the error. And I meant
"shifting", not "sifting". Can't think of an excuse for that.
John Feather
johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk
----------
From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Language Varieties
Hello, Lowlanders!
While thinking about the Lancashire dialect and looking through the two old
poems by Samuel Laycock I began thinking about the Modal Auxiliary Verb
_maun_.
_maun_ , which we Prestonians used to pronounce more like _mun_ [mən], used
to occupy the semantic ground now taken up by the verbs _should_ and
_ought_. It is often glossed as 'must', but I think that is because of the
orthographic resemblance between the words; I am more apt to think of it as
'should'.
In the poem _Bonny Brid_, the father says: _But aw munno fear thee_ (but I
shouldn't be afraid of you.), the Present Negative form of _mun_.
This Verb, _maun_ / _mun_, seems to have been quite common in dialects. It
certainly occurs in Ulster Scots, e.g. _Ye maun hae wrocht fur thrie yeir or
mair_ (you should have worked for three years or more) (see:
http://jobfinder.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/servlet/jobfinder/ExtractAdvert?adID=136438
for examples); Yorkshire dialect, e.g. _Yan mundeea as weel as yan can_ (you
should do as well as you can); Scots, e.g. _an A maun sey ti hir_ (And I
must / should say to her).
It also appears in the dialect poetry of D.H. Lawrence, which is based on
the Nottingham dialect, and in his prose when his characters are speaking in
that dialect. In the novel _Lady Chatterley's Lover_ Her Ladyship tries to
emulate the dialect of her lover, and we find both forms occurring:
"
He laughed. Her attempts at the dialect were so ludicrous, somehow.
`Coom then, tha mun goo!' he said.
`Mun I?' she said.
`Maun Ah!' he corrected.
`Why should I say maun when you said mun?' she protested. `You're not
playing fair.' "
Now, I think I have come across a Verb similar to this in the Scandinavian
languages (I know Old Norse had _munu_ 'shall,will'). Can anyone enlighten
me as to the Scandinavian cognates? I think Middle English had an auxiliary
verb _man_, but I can't seem to find it in any texts, since it coincides
with the word for 'man'.
Also, does anyone know of any cognates in the other Lowlands languages?
John Duckworth
Preston, UK
----------
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties
John about "mun" etc. above:
> Also, does anyone know of any cognates in the other Lowlands languages?
How about negative imperative _moenie_ ['muni] (< *moet nie 'must not') in
Afrikaans; e.g., _Jy moenie slaap nie_ ("You mustn't sleep not") 'You
mustn't sleep', 'Don't sleep!'?
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
----------
From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Language Varieties
Good Morning, Lowlanders!
Here is a very humorous poem in a very watered down variety of Lancashire
dialect. It was written by a man called Marriott Edgar in 1932. This man
wrote quite a lot of humorous monologues, of which this is perhaps the best
known. I wish I could have found you an audio file of someone reading it,
because it is very funny. I remember hearing it on the radio when I was
small.
As I say, the form of dialect is very diluted, maybe because it was intended
for a wider audience.
The Lion and Albert
There's a famous seaside place called Blackpool,
That's noted for fresh air and fun,
And Mr and Mrs Ramsbottom
Went there with young Albert, their son.
A grand little lad was young Albert
All dressed in his best; quite a swell
With a stick with an 'orse's 'ead 'andle
The finest that Woolworth's could sell.
They didn't think much to the Ocean
The waves, they were fiddlin' and small
There was no wrecks and nobody drownded
Fact, nothing to laugh at, at all.
So, seeking for further amusement
They paid and went into the zoo
Where they'd lions and tigers and camels
And old ale and sandwiches too.
There were one great big lion called Wallace
His nose were all covered with scars
He lay in a somnolent posture
With the side of his face o n the bars.
Now Albert had heard about lions
How they was ferocious and wild
To see Wallace lying so peaceful
Well, it didn't seem right to the child.
So straight 'way the brave little feller
Not showing a morsel of fear
Took his stick with its 'orse's 'ead 'andle
And shoved it in Wallace's ear.
You could see the lion didn't like it
For giving a kind of a roll
He pulled Albert inside the cage with 'im
And swallowed the little lad 'ole
Then Pa, who had seen the occurrence
And didn't know what to do next
Said "Mother! Yon lions 'et Albert"
And Mother said "Well, I am vexed!"
Then Mr and Mrs Ramsbottom
Quite rightly, when all's said and done
Complained to the Animal Keeper
That the lion had eaten their son.
The keeper was quite nice about it
He said "What a nasty mishap
Are you sure it's your boy he's eaten?"
Pa said "Am I sure? There's his cap!"
The manager had to be sent for
He came and he said "What's to do?"
Pa said "Yon lion's 'et Albert
And 'im in his Sunday clothes, too."
Then Mother said, "Right's right, young feller
I think it's a shame and a sin
For a lion to go and eat Albert
And after we've paid to come in."
The manager wanted no trouble
He took out his purse right away
Saying "How much to settle the matter?"
And Pa said "What do you usually pay?"
But Mother had turned a bit awkward
When she thought where her Albert had gone
She said "No! someone's got to be summonsed"
So that was decided upon.
Then off they went to the Police Station
In front of the Magistrate chap
They told 'im what happened to Albert
And proved it by showing his cap.
The Magistrate gave his opinion
That no one was really to blame
And he said that he hoped the Ramsbottoms
Would have further sons to their name.
At that Mother got proper blazing
"And th ank you, sir, kindly," said she
"What waste all our lives raising children
To feed ruddy lions? Not me!"
John Duckworth
Preston, UK
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