LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.29 (09) [E]

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From: Camillo Bastrup <camillo_bastrup at operamail.com>
Subject: Brythonic (Cumberic) yin & ean

If memory serves, and one reason to allow great leeway in presumptive
etymologic discussions-sometimes the simplest answers are still 'up in the
sir', or we shou;d all just file them away as 'possibly'...or, "Naw!"; and
that recent post, YIN means '1'? That is true. But Ean means "AN" in
English, altho draw from the Latin-base UN(E). Now that is really TWO
answers, as they addition of the nasal is EUPHONIC and is for English 'A'.
(INDEFINITE ARTICLE)Letter 'n' is a 'marker' in English, and was a
PLURAL-maker in before-time.Now, to make this all the more confusing, and as
I said, if memory serves, the BORDER or SCOTS(Braidf)
English must have influences from Cumberic, PENTLAND or PICTISH 'Brythonic'
if it was a Celtic language, we find that even YIN or ONE is to be found in
LANCASHIRE(?) but YEAN (y+EAN) means "EWE?" Now by some cockamime construct
would this be a WELSH 'THE'(A, ie: "Y", decoding out as 'A-1''?
('Geordieism?' don't laugh! Lawrence Welk's license plate was
"A1ANDA2"!)Cumberic numerals were for SHEEP COUNTING or were they for
'counting sheep?' In one such list, however TWENTY is "WICKA"!(Which then
explains ALOT!)'AN' in Celtic generally 'means' "LAND". In Welsh; "YN"
('Island')Norse Islands are OY (English "EYE") and when you 'see' one you
A-(H)-OY! In English we get euphonic 'SCEOP-TALK'... "I saw (eye-sore)AN
IslANd. And making this post practically a punning, the book "Lion, Witch &
Wardrobe" has a lion named ASLAN. In normal English AN is pronounced as 'EN'
before vowels, as the A is oftenest 'uh' before all but liquids, glides, &
nasals, when it is then strenghtened to "AY"

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From: Fred van Brederode <f.vanbrederode at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.28 (04) [E]

Ron wrote about "dude". I am puzzled by The American Heritage(r)
Dictionary's
views. It's hard to imagine significant numbers of Easterners going to the
rural West on vacation in the 1870s. Besides, the OED can't trace it back
before 1883 in NY City and it was only later that it acquired it's "Western"
meaning. "Dude ranch" for a vacation destination isn't attested until 1921.
(..).
How about a jokey "doed up" for "done up"? But is this US? The DHS doesn't
even record this phrase in this meaning in the UK but perhaps not "slangy"
enough.

John Feather wrote the above words.
It is the "doed up" that interests me. Not the etymology, but the spelling.
Given the associated word dude, I assume the "oe" is pronounced like "ou".
This seems like an odd spelling for an English word. The use of the letters
"u" , "oo" or even "ou"  would have been more appropriate, or more of this
time.
For the same reason I always found the word canoe fascinating. It uses the
"Dutch" oe.
As far as I know only Dutch and Indonesian (from before the 19 sixties, when
Dutch influence was wiped out of the Indonesian spelling) use the oe for
that reason.

When it showes up in words like canoe and now in doed, it makes me wonder,
where does it come from? is/was it used more often? Why do away with it? or
why keep it in a word like canoe? Why not change it in canoo or something?

Now that I mention the "oe" and the far East, it brings back a memory that
longs for an explanation.
I remember having seen a picture of Shanghai early 20th century. It shows a
building (a restaurant?) with on the side the name of its owner. The name is
in Latin script and the first part of the name is "Soen".  I would not have
been surprised if the picture was taken in the Netherlands Indies at the
time, but the subscript definitely stated Shanghai.
If taken in Shanghai, I would have expected Chinese characters in the first
place or, if it had to be Latin script, an English transcription. In English
spelling it would very likely have been "Sun".
Maybe the author or the editor made a mistake and the picture was taken in
the Netherlands Indies after all. I do not have the picture and I could not
find it back on the internet either. The question arises: Was the "oe"
really used in more languages than Dutch and Indonesian?

Groeten,
Fred van Brederode

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.29 (02) [E]

Dear Grietje,

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.28 (08) [E]

> Maybe there's a bit of folk-etymology at work here on my part, but
_Yankee_
> would be from the Dutch first names _Jan_Kees_, I think that's accepted
> wisdom, isn't it?

Now, I can't help with 'Jan Doedel', but please receive herewith my input on
'Yankee'.
I've heard this tale of 'Jan Kees', but I think it works too hard.
Once the northern settlements of America from New York inland were Dutch, &
'Jan' was a very popular Dutch name.  It still is in South Africa. Now the
diminutive form of the name, in affection, is Jantjie (Johnny). That is how
it is spelled, but not how it is pronounced, but like this, in phonetic;
'janki' - Yankee, no?
It isn't necessary to call on a surname to fill in a blank, there is none!

By the way, the Grimm Fairytale 'Hansel & Gretel' is fitted with Low German
diminutives in my language, so: Hansie & Grietjie! Rings a bell, hmmm?

Best wishes to you & your Hansie,
Mark

P S How do you find Scotland?

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From: Douglas G. Wilson <douglas at nb.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.29 (02) [E]

>A problem with "dude" from Yankee Doodle is that there doesn't seem to have
>been any hesitation in the spelling between "dude" and "dood" or in the
>usage between "dude" and "doodle".

The word "dude" apparently existed before 1883, but it was infrequent, at
least in the printed record. In 1883 it suddenly became common, presumably
mostly via the newspapers. A word which spreads primarily by printed media
might be expected to be relatively fixed in spelling.

Very early in the word's popularity surge in 1883, the _Brooklyn Daily
Eagle_ (25 Feb. 1883) (p. 1, col. 1) ["Life in New York City"] contains the
following:

<<A new word has been coined. It is _d-u-d-e_ or _d-o-o-d_. The spelling
does not seem to be distinctly settled yet, but custom will soon regulate
it. Just where the word came from nobody knows, but it has sprung into
popularity within the last two weeks, so that now everybody is using it.>>

We don't know much about the early history of the word: for example "Yankee
Doodle" > "Yankee Dude" > "dude" (with no "doodle" stage) is plausible IMHO.

>Doug wrote: "The word is first attested in 1877". Where?

Letters of F. Remington, quoted in HDAS ("Historical Dictionary of American
Slang"), which also shows 1878 and 1881 examples.

>The date of 1883 is specifically attached to NY City.

In 1883 the word "dude" suddenly became a fad all over the country,
although I don't find it hard to believe that it began in New York. The
newspapers in 1883 mentioned dudes of many places ... of course most often
New York, followed by Boston, according to my browse. At the time the dude
phenomenon and its name were sometimes said to originate in New York,
sometimes in London/England.

>"Sam Clements" - who he?

A current poster to a list. I have verified the citation, although the date
appears to be 3 April 1879.

>The incident described presumably happened well before 1879.

1860 or very shortly later, I think. HDAS shows a quotation from 1913 in
which "dude" appeared in a reminiscence from 1854. All we can be sure of is
that somebody in 1879 said that "Yankee Doodle" was used this way ca. 1860,
and that somebody in 1913 recalled "dude" from 1854. One is free to doubt
the accuracy of either recollection (or both).

-- Doug Wilson

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From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Etymology


Ron said:

"_Düdük_ can refer to any sort of whistle or pipe, is very general in
meaning.  I have a feeling that it is not native, for otherwise I would
expect there to be a verb *_düd-_.  _Düdük_ can indeed be found in
Eastern Turkic, e.g., Uyghur _düdük_, but it looks like a Western Turkic
loan
(otherwise probably *_tütük_ or *_tüdük_) and again there is no
related word."

I agree that the absence of a verb *_düd-_ makes it seem unlikely that it is
a native word. Taking a stab in the dark, is it possibly from Persian?
Persian has the word _du:d_ , which can mean 'breath' (as well as 'smoke'),
and making it into _du:dak_, with the diminutive suffix, would be 'little
breath'. I don't remember ever seeing the word in Persian, but it may exist,
I can't seem to lay my hands on a really comprehensive Persian dictionary
just at the moment.

There are similarities between the word _dudak_ and Turkic (and Mongolian)
words for the bustard (Otis tarda). The word also appears in some Russian
dialects, and possibly in Czech, Slovak and Polish words for 'hoepoe' (the
latter may be onomatopoeic). [Kazak _duadak_ (bustard) ; Chaghatay _toghdak_
; Kirghiz / Koibal _to:dag_ ; Mongolian _togadag_ (sic, but I think it must
be _toghadagh_ ), Kalmyk _to:dog_; Tatar and East Russian dialect (according
to Dal') дудак  _dudak_ (bustard). .... Czech _dudek_ (hoepoe), Slovak
_dudak_, Polish _dudek_ ; Old Czech had _dud_ for the bird, but Old Czech
also used the word _dudu_ for the 'cry of the hoepoe', which suggest
onomatopoea.]
John Duckworth

Preston, UK

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

John (Duckworth),

In the language itself I can't find any related word for Farsi دود _dûd_
either.

Turkic generally has _tüt-_ 'to smoke' and numerous derivations, apparently
natively.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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