LL-L "Phonology" 2004.08.31 (11) [E]

Tue Aug 31 23:37:28 UTC 2004

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.08.31 (07) [E]

Mark Brooks wrote:

> > And there is "route" the way they mispronounce it up north (in the US).
> > We
> > all know it's supposed to rhyme with "house", but there are some that
> > insist
> > on pronouncing it to rhyme with "boot".

There are many versions of the old rock hit "Route 66" (I'll just mention
Sammy Davis Jr. and the Rolling Stones). And they all pronounce it
correctly, the French way, which rhymes with "boot".

So there,
Gabriele Kahn

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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.08.31 (07) [E]

Dan wheag wrote:
"I think those who transcribe [U] as want to avoid the ambivalence found
in traditional English spelling which can stand for [V] in 'but', 'hut'
and [U] in 'put' and 'push'. In doing so they become ambivalent about [U]
and [u:] instead. So I take it's the 'short' in "good" that is
intended. And that is what I have in ['bUg@], [pUS] and [pUl]. I don't say
['bQg@], [p at S] and [pQl] as spelling it with would indicate. Is an
'o'-pronunciation typical for Nottingham?"

I think John Duckworth first highlighted how difficult it is to phoneticise
the northern /u/ - or, more accurately, the many different northern /u/.
When I used /o/ to realise the sound as I say it, I was doing so
instinctively rather than linguistically, because to my ears the Nottingham
/u/ is closer to the /o/ in _lop_ or _hop_ than it is to the [u:] or [y] or
even [y:] that many northern English variants are ridiculed as having. I
have yet to find an IPA symbol that adequately transcribes the sound - for
me, the following words rhyme perfectly:

book - [buq]
pull - [p'uL]
push - [p'uS]
tuck [t'uq]
took [t'uq]
bug [buG]

The sequence put-pot-pat-pit-pet and poot-poat-part-pete-pate are all
phonemically distinct, but the [u] and [o] are closer to each other than all
the other sounds. I don't fully understand it. It's quite confusing trying
to notice sounds I say all the time!

Críostóir.

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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.08.31 (03) [E]

Hi all,

Mark wrote about the pronunciation of route:
>And there is "route" the way they mispronounce it up north (in the US).  We
>all know it's supposed to rhyme with "house", but there are some that
insist
>on pronouncing it to rhyme with "boot".

Hey, Ron, we say /root/ too and I'm often bemused with the Canadian and
'northern' (ND/SD/Wisconsin) /rout/ !

Cheerio,
Elsie Zinsser

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From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.08.31 (07) [E]

> From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
> Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.08.31 (03) [E]
>
> Ron wrote:
> I take it that was intended as tongue-in-cheek, playful "flame-baiting."
> Or
> were you serious about "route"?
> But, of course, it was a playful poke at the Northerners.  I think "route"
> is probably a borrowing from French, likely after the Norman conquest of
> England.  But, the strange thing (to me anyway) is that the /u/ of the
> word
> "route" DIDN'T change to /au/ in the Great English Vowel Shift in a large
> part of the language.  It DID change to /au/ for the ancestors of those of
> us in the South, though.  Is there an explanation for that?
> Mark Brooks

Interestingly, the /raut/ pronunciation is standard when talking about
internet routers (I've always heard /rauter/, never /rooter/.  In fact, I'd
say it is the more common pronunciation (in the US at least) where the verb
is involved: "They are re/raut/ing  (not 're/root/ing')traffic around the
construction zone".  Most of the variation seems to involve the noun.  While
I would refer to "/root/ 1" or "/root/ 66," I would also say "paper /raut/"
or "mail carrier /raut/".  I'm pretty ambivalent about more general uses of
the noun "route", as in "What is the most direct route to get there?"  In
that example, I would probably say /raut/, then immediately stop and say
something like, "uh, /root/?"

Other English words where "ou" is pronounced "oo" (most, possibly all,
borrowed from other languages): croup, nougat, goulash, ghoul, tour (for
some speakers), cougar, coupon, couth/uncouth, vermouth.

Oh, and the very common "you". :)

There's another word in English where "oe" is pronounced "oo": hoopoe (a
species of bird).  I've also seen it spelled "hoepoe".

Re: pronunciation of "cool" as something approximating /kyool/ - I think it
is the pronunciation reflected in the "hip" alternate spelling used by a lot
of young people, especially on the internet, "kewl".  A Google search for
"kewl" turns up 171,000 hits.

Kevin Caldwell

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Haai, Elsie!  Hoe gaan dit?

> Hey, Ron, we say /root/ too and I'm often bemused with the Canadian and
> 'northern' (ND/SD/Wisconsin) /rout/ !

Is this "Hey, Ron" as in "But ..." or "About what Mark said ..."?  It was
Mark Brooks, one of our Southern boys, that had the audacity to quip about
the "Northern" pronunciation [ru:t] for _route_ (ryming with "root").

I had always said [ru:t], but who knows what I would now say had entered the
States from the South (given that I find Southern "accents" much more
tempting and easy to imitate than Northern ones).  I have to admit , though,
that I'm as "weird" as Kevin Caldwell confessed being.  I myself have been
heard to pronounce it [raUt] (as in "to rout," rhyming with "trout") when I
felt too self-conscious to say [ru:t].  You see, it's not as simple as
Southerners saying [raUt] and Northerners saying [ru:t].  Nope.  I find that
at least 50% of people up here in the Northwest say [raUt].  (And it comes
up a lot, given that you talk about "state routes" and "bus routes").  Once
in a while, in vain attempts at hiding my "alien eggheadiness," I say [raUt]
because not doing so would make me stick out even more.  (Isn't it
cowardly?)

I have also caught myself a couple of times, for the same reason,
pronouncing "tomato" to rhyme with "potato."  This morning I didn't when I
asked, "What's with the tomaahtoes?" in reference to a large bowl full of
the said fruit (vegetable?), obviously garden-grown, on an office table
designated exclusively to food sharing.  A newish office assistant -- very
young -- commented that she had known about "I say 'tomayto', and you say
'tomahto' ..." in the song, but she "didn't know that anybody *really* says
'tomahto'" ...  So I told her that in that case she made an important
discovery today.

Sometimes it's hard to stick to your resident alien guns.

But really, if it's "tomahto," why is it "potayto" and not "potahto"?  ;-)

Hey, Kevin!

> Interestingly, the /raut/ pronunciation is standard when talking about
> internet routers (I've always heard /rauter/, never /rooter/.

> "They are re/raut/ing  (not 're/root/ing')traffic around the construction
zone".

Good points, if I may say so.  Why not "to route" and "routing" with an [aU]
sound (as in "cow")?  Probably because it conflicts with to "to root" and
"rooting," as in "rooting around"?  ;-)

Tata and cheerio!
Reinhard/Ron

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