LL-L "Names" 2004.12.02 (06) [E]

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From: Carl Witzel <cwitzjr at msn.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.12.03 (08) [E]

Gabriele wrote:

You've been misinformed there.  I happened to live in Hameln (better known
in the English-speaking world as Hamelin of Pied Piper fame) between the
ages of 13 and 17, and it is most definitely NOT in Hesse, nor has it ever
been, but in Lower Saxony, on the Weser river, about 40 km south of
Hannover.

There is a street named Vizelinstraße in Hameln, and a Catholic community in

one of the surrounding villages called St. Vizelin (the area is largely
Protestant). He was born in Hameln in 1090, and died in 1154. He is best
known for being rather unsuccessful as a missionary in Eastern Holstein;
although he was, in theory, the bishop around there, the local heathens
never allowed him to set foot in "his" bishopry as long as he lived, which
must have been rather frustrating for him.

There is, by the way, a town north of Fulda, in the northernmost corner of
Hesse, bordering on Lower Saxony, by the name of Witzenhausen. I would look
for a connection there.

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

<quote> http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=1959
Catholic Online Saints
St. Vicelin
Feastday: December 12
1086-1154
Missionary and bishop. Born at Hemeln [sic.], Lower Saxony, Germany, he
studied in the cathedral school of Paderborn and possibly at Laon, France.
He received an appointment as a canon at Bremen, Germany, where he became
head of the local school. Ordained by St. Norbert at Magdeburg, he embarked
upon a missionary life among the Wends in northern Germany, founding
monasteries at Holstein, Segeberg, and Hogersdorf, Unfortunately, most of
his work and missionary accomplishments were laid waste in 1147 by a
terrible onslaught by marauding pirates. Escaping with some of his priests,
he fled to safety in the Holy Roman Empire. In 1149, he was named bishop of
Staargard, although he met resistance to his appointment by Emperor
Frederick I Barbarossa who prevented him from occupying his see. He died at
Neumunster, Lorraine, France, paralyzed the last three years of his life,
and is honored as the Apostle of Holstein.
</quote>

<quote> http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15404a.htm
St. Vicelinus
Bishop of Oldenburg, apostle of Holstein, b. at Hameln about 1086; d. 12
Dec., 1154. Orphaned at an early age, he received his primary education at
Hameln. He left secretly for Paderborn, where he enjoyed the home and
instructions of Hartmann, and soon surpassed his companions and assisted in
the management of the cathedral school. He was called to Bremen to act as
teacher and principal of the school, and was offered a canonry by Archbishop
Frederic. In 1122 he went to Laon in France to complete his studies (Hauck,
"Kirchengesch. Deutschl.", Leipzig, 1903, IV, 600); this is doubted by
Schirren (Beitrage zur Kritik alterer holst. Geschichte, 1876, 38). On his
return he was ordained priest by St. Norbert of Magdeburg. Archbishop
Adalben sent him among the Wends, and in the fall of 1126 Henry, Prince of
the Obotrites, gave him a church in Lubeck. At the death of Henry (22 March,
1127) Vicelinus returned to Bremen, and was appointed pastor at Wippenthorp.
This gave him an opportunity to work among the Holstians and neighbouring
Slavs. His preaching gathered crowds of eager listeners, and many priests
aided him in founding the monastery of Neumunster, according to the Rule of
St. Augustine, which was liberally endowed by the archbishop. Wars among the
tribes in 1137 caused the missionaries to abandon their labours for two
years. Vicelinus sent two priests to Lubeck, but with little success. At his
suggestion King Lothair intended to build a fortress and monastery at
Segeburg, but death prevented him. Some years later Vicelinus established a
house at Hogersdorf. In 1149 he was made Bishop of Oldenburg, where he did
much for the spiritual and temporal welfare of his diocese. In 1152 he was
struck by paralysis and lingered amid much suffering for two years. His body
was transferred to Bordesholm in 1332, and buried before the main altar. In
1874 the small Catholic parish at Hameln had his picture engraved on a new
bell. He is usually represented with a church resting on his left arm; his
feast is celebrated on 12 Dec.
</quote>

By the way, "Wend(s)" is no longer a politically correct name, be it for
Sorbs specifically or for Slavs of Germany generally.  It is much like
"gypsy" for "Roma," or "Eskimo" for "Inuit" or "Yupik," sometimes as bad as
the "N" word in English -- another case of a name falling into disuse
because of misuse.  I personally object to the name "Wends" also because it
usually stands for "Slavs native to Germany," thus "dressing up" their
status and separating them from their ethnic and linguistic relatives
outside Germany.  (This is what the Sorbian movements have been trying to
remedy since the 19th century.)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

--------------------------

Hi, Gabriele & Ron!

I am so pleased to hear the views of those closer to the situation than I.

I did misrepresent the idea that Hameln is in Hesse.  That is my American
lack of knowledge of boundaries in Europe.  I was speaking from memory,
which unfortunately failed me.

It is interesting to hear firsthand that Saint Vicelin was not all that
successful.  Makes me wonder why he is recognized as a Saint.  I did notice
that the authorities of Hameln recognize the spelling of his name as
Vizelin.  I would think that a German name would be 'Wizelin', and preserved
as such.  Does this lend truth to a Latin origin, which German speakers
chose to acknowledge?

Thank you for drawing my attention to my misuse of 'Wends'.  As an American,
I was simply repeating what was published on the internet.  Actually, my old
history book of the late 1800s does identify the entire Slavic areas of
Germany as 'Sorbs'.  Thank you for allowing me to understand the unfavorable
nature of the word.

I've noted an earlier comment made by Ron regarding the possible Latin
origin of Vicelinus, Vicelin.  The web posts many histories regarding
Spuritjs Cassius, surnamed Vecellinus (Vicellinus, Visedlinus, Vitellinus).
Unfortunately, I can find no other persons bearing the name.  But the 502
B.C. date of the name proves quite interesting.  I have yet to understand
what this could mean.  If indeed the same name, it appears so much earlier
than Wizelin in Flanders in the 10th century.  Wizelin is perhaps a
Germanized Latin name?  And this explains why name historians have so much
trouble with it.  There will be many quiet afternoons spent on pondering
this possibility!!

Thanks again for all of your kind thoughts.

Regards to all,
Carl

----------

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: "Etymology" [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> By the way, "Wend(s)" is no longer a politically correct name, be it for
> Sorbs specifically or for Slavs of Germany generally.  It is much like
> "gypsy" for "Roma," or "Eskimo" for "Inuit" or "Yupik," sometimes as bad
> as
> the "N" word in English -- another case of a name falling into disuse
> because of misuse.  I personally object to the name "Wends" also because
> it
> usually stands for "Slavs native to Germany," thus "dressing up" their
> status and separating them from their ethnic and linguistic relatives
> outside Germany.  (This is what the Sorbian movements have been trying to
> remedy since the 19th century.)

Are you sure that gypsies are offended by the use of they word "gypsy"? I
have a Roma friend who always refers to herself as a "gypsy" and her family
seem to do the same. They don't seem to consider it offensive for me to
refer to them as "gypsies", and my impression is that they prefer it. I'm
talking about people who have the culture and language, though mostly they
don't live in caravans any more.

Amongst the Deaf, the term "hearing impaired" is considered offensive, yet
you seemed to use it quite copiously until I started a few slight murmurs
that I hope you've picked up on!

You have to be careful with using terms that are "approved" by the wider
society. Often these come from well-meaning people such as social work or
university departments who don't really know how the people referred to feel
about it. Some actively resist the idea of asking the target group which
term they prefer, and will say "the deaf prefer to be referred to as..."
whether they do or not. Sometimes they're put abroad by people who have
their own agenda for the group concerned, whether from within the group or
outside of it. "Hearing impaired", for example, is a term used to suggest
that the medical model of disability applies to the culturally deaf, while
within Deaf groups in Britain there's a sign, usually translated as
(d/D)eaf, which attempts to lump deaf and hard-of-hearing together which
I've expressed objections to because of the hidden message that the HoH are
"lowercase". Perhaps "Roma", while demographically correct, could be a way
of altering the "caravan" mentality which many gypsies would still prefer to
be associated with rather than divorced from.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Hi, Carl!

Careful with Latin names of North Europeans!  They are usually "faked up."
People with "learning" or those that wanted to appear learned used to
acquire Latin variants of their names because in medieval times Latin was
considered the only real or good language and Latin names were supposed to
give folks status.  A lot of approximation was involved, usually based on
the native name, with the aim of making it appear genuinely Latin.  So, if,
let's say, the guy's name was Witzelin  -- perhaps a diminuitive form of
Wi(n)tzel ~ We(n)tzel, either from Germanic Werner (which would make
Witzelin amount to a double diminutive form), or from Slavonic Ve(n)ceslav
(given that the usually German equivalents of this are Wenzel or Wetzel) --
then Latin Vicellinus would seem like a compromise choice: it seems
phonologically related, has a meaning (based on 'neighbor') and contains a
(Latin) diminutive as well.  My point is that Latin equivalents can be very
unreliable in researching native names.

Of course, the man was born in Hamlin, which is just about on the
westernmost edge of the older Germanic-Slavonic overlap region.  This may
make the possibility of him having been a Slav or of Slavonic descent
perhaps somewhat more remote, but you ought not exclude it altogether, given
also that he was given Slavonic areas as his missionary jurisdiction.  Bear
in mind that Slavonic communities of that region (and beyond) were rarely in
power positions and Slavs that were (such as aristocrats and clerics) tended
to be or become Germanicized (later followed by those they represented or
rules).  Slavonic origin in that region is not easily proven where important
figures tried to blend in with the power groups, took on Germanic versions
of their names and then Latinized these.

Sandy, it seems to me that you are quite right in not unquestioningly
accepting the use of "correct" labels.  Furthermore, knowing you for as long
as I do, I take it as a given that you are aware of the fact that diversity
within the labeled communities themselves makes it difficult for outsiders
to decide what labeling names are safest.  And "safest" is really what we
are talking about here, with the assumption also that we are talking about
"well-meaning" people, people that (1) do not want to offend and (2) are
trying to do their bit in making this world a more peaceful, accepting and
all-embracing place (which happen to be basic parts of my personal mental
and spiritual makeup).

I am rarely impressed or deterred by scorning remarks about "political
correctness."  In quite a few cases these are nothing but diversionary
tactics, much like name-calling leveled as the "do-gooder" and "bleeding
heart liberal" types as a defense of one's own chauvinist and prejudiced
views, and in a few cases it's a matter of habitual denunciation of whatever
seems to smack of jumping onto the current bandwagon.  I am myself not
exactly given to following the herds either, am at least as obsessed with
individual, critical thinking as the next person; so I know where this
latter attitude comes from.  However, my personal path of thinking of all
people with respect, compassion and love is of greater concern to me than
arousing some people's disdain and sarcasm.  My personal path (which I have
followed all my life) just happens to coincide with "this latest bandwagon,"
so I don't think there's any need to apologize for it, leave alone stray
from it.

I will try to avoid going into an even more lengthy sermon here.  Let me
just say that it is quite true that the "ugly" names are often used by the
people themselves, but not by *all*, and there are always at least some who
are genuinely offended by their use, especially when used by outsiders.

The extreme case is the "N" word for African Americans (including the
original Spanish-derived name).  Some members of the community use it
themselves, but only among themselves, as a sort of fashion slang word with
negative connotations referring to behavior (e.g., "You're such a n...!").
However, if anyone else would use it it would be highly offensive, might
result in violence and/or legal prosecution.  I happen to know that this
name is so painful to most North American descendants of African slaves that
they also feel offended by its cognates in other languages (especially in
European languages), and it doesn't matter if you explain that in those
languages the cognates do not carry the same negative connotation.  It
simply does not matter to them.  So I strongly advise against using them, if
not as a matter of compassion and solidarity then as a matter of
consideration, respect and politeness.  I believe something like this
applies to "Bantu" in South Africa as well, no matter how much you argue
that it is in itself an innocuous name.  What matters is that the bitterness
of apartheid has tainted it apparently forever .

And then there is a range of less clear cases.

Yes, some Roma do say "gypsy," _Zigeuner_, _gitan_, _gitano_, _zingaro_,
_cygan_, _cikán_, _cigány_, _Å£igan_, _tater_, _ijito_, цыган, γύφτοσ, ×¦×•×¢× ×™
,الغجر٠, or whatever.  Many of
them do so only when talking to _gadzhe_ (non-Roma), assuming that they
would not understand the native name.

And, yes, the "ugly" names are often appropriated by the groups themselves,
usually in a "militarist," "in-your-face" sort of way.  Some homosexual
groups refer to themselves as "Queer," using, appropriating the older,
originally derogatory name.  But it is not usually advisable for an outsider
to call someone "queer" in a well-meaning way, certainly not without knowing
about his or her attitude.

I know that virtually all Yupik, Inuit and Inupiak people resent the name
"Eskimo," though it is still used in linguistic genealogy; so I don't use
it.

Some native groups in North America call themselves "Indian," may even laugh
about "good" label names, but others *are* offended by "Indian."  I err on
the side of caution by collectively using "Native American" in the US and
"First Nation" or "(Canadian) Aboriginal(s)" in Canada, but always just use
the nations' specific names if I happen to know them, e.g., Tlingit,
Saamish, Kwakwa'akw (Kwakiutl), Navaho, Choctaw, Abenaki, Arapaho, Tsalagiyi
(Cherokee), Wyandot (Huron), Lenape (Delaware), Mi'kmaq (Micmac) and Lakota
(Sioux).  I know and respect that they consider themselves nations, with or
without acceptance of US or Canadian jurisdiction.  Since I often interact
with their members or descendants and do not always know what an
individual's leanings are, this is not just a theoretical thing for me, but
I must choose the most widely acceptable manner of reference.

I once referred to a woman (who could sign) as "deaf" and was reprimanded by
her, saying that she had a little hearing, was just "extremely hard of
hearing."  So there!  Someone else told me they were legally blind but not
really blind.  What can you do?  When I talk about making audiovisual
presentations accessible to as many people as possible, I also have in mind
people with diminished hearing and eyesight, not just deaf and blind people.
So, the terms "hearing-impaired" and "visually impaired" cast the net
widely, include all of the above.

Quite a few women, especially older ones, refer to women as "girls" or
"gals."  Does this mean that *I* can call them that, or these days even
females in their late teens that are not related to me?  I'd better not if I
know what's good for me, at least not here in North America.  Some
"militant" female feminists call themselves "Bitches."  I do not advise that
others see this as green light to start using this name.

I have heard a couple of Sorbs refer to their people as "Wends" (_Wenden_)
in German but only in introductory talks for outsiders, followed by
something like "but we are really called Sorbs."  Sorbs won't beat you up if
you call them "Wends," would just consider you uneducated on this subject.
The name comes with negative baggage in that it implies lumping and in that
it used to be used in a derogatory manner.  It is a reminder of less than
fair treatment of Sorbs throughout history, treatment that unfortunately
continues in spite of lipserve, albeit in more "subtle" ways.  Calling the
people by their own name seems to be the safest way to go.  I say so also as
a partial descendant of Sorbs (and Pomeranians) who has embraced that part
of his
heritage.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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