LL-L "Syntax" 2004.01.06 (08) [A/E]

Fri Feb 6 21:10:15 UTC 2004

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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.01.06 (05) [A/E]

Ron wrote:
"Can you say the following?
* I'm singing me a song. [for my own enjoyment]
* I'll read me a book.  [for my own enjoyment]
* I've got me a fail on the test. [probably not, unless failing was
intended, or this is a sarcastic statement]
* I've dressed me up in Ma's lingerie.  [for my own private enjoyment]
* I'll buy me a coursage.  [for my own adornment pleasure or for my
date]
* I'll buy me a coursage for my prom date. [(1) because I want the
girl to wear it, or (2) because I'll wear it myself (pretending someone gave
it to me when I don't actually have a date)]"

I can imagine saying all of them especially the about Ma's lingerie ;-}.
No, actually, I can imagine all of them except the one about failing the
test.  That one seems weird, just doesn't sound right.  I can even imagine
using the one about the coursage in the sense of "because I want the girl to
wear it."  I can't decide why, but "I dressed me up in Ma's lingerie" sounds
better than "I've dressed me up..."  No, that's not a joke.  I mean the past
tense sounds better that the present perfect.  Don't know why.

Mark

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From: Liza du Plooy <lizaduplooy at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.01.06 (05) [A/E]

Goeiedag almal
Ek het voorheen vergeet om te sê, dankie vir die hartelike verwelkoming, Ron
en Elsie!

Ron you wrote:

>Test:
>Can you say the following?
>
>* I'm singing me a song. [for my own enjoyment]
>* I'll read me a book. [for my own enjoyment]
>* I've got me a fail on the test. [probably not, unless failing was
>intended,
>or this is a sarcastic statement]
>* I've dressed me up in Ma's lingerie. [for my own private enjoyment]
>* I'll buy me a coursage. [for my own adornment pleasure or for my date]
>* I'll buy me a coursage for my prom date. [(1) because I want the
>girl to wear it, or (2) because I'll wear it myself (pretending someone
>gave it to me when I don't actually have a date)]
>
>What I'm trying to get at here is what the limitations and true function of
>this sort of construction is.

I wouldn't use any of these construction. Perhaps 'I'll buy me a ...' since
I live in Texas and hear it used like that. If I thought about it first
though, I would use 'myself' in the place of 'me' in every case. I think my
highschool english teacher would highly dissaprove if I start saying 'I'll
get me a dog' or 'I'll read me a book'!

>Elsie en andere Afrikaans-talige vriende, is did nie juis te sÃª dat
>Afrikaans geen weerkerende voornaamwoord het nie? Kan "Hy was hom" nie "Hy
>was iemand (manlik)" sowel as "Hy was homself" bedoel nie?
>
>Elsie and other Afrikaans speakers, is it not correct to state that
>Afrikaans has no reflexive pronoun? Can _Hy was hom_ not mean 'He washes
>him' as well as 'He washes himself'?

Jy is reg Ron. "Hy was hom" kan beteken hy was homself, of hy was iemand
(manlik). Ek weet nie hoe grammaties korrek dit is nie, maar ek gebruik 'hy
was hom' en 'hy was homself'. Dus ook, 'sy was haarself' en 'ek was myself'.
Ek dink nie ek sou ooit 'sy was haar' sê nie. Dit voel asof daar 'n
selfstandige naamwoord kort - sy was haar wat?

You are right Ron. "Hy was hom" can mean he washes himself or someone else
who is male. I don't know how grammatically correct it is, but I use both
'hy was hom' and 'hy was homself'. Thus also, 'sy was haarself' and 'ek was
myself'. I don't think I would ever say 'sy was haar'. It feels like the
sentece lacks a noun - sy was haar what?

On a different note, can you tell me what the scots word 'callant' means? As
is "he is a braw callant". Would this word be at all related to the
Afrikaans 'kalant'? Unfortunately I do not have a dictionary to give you the
exact meaning of 'kalant'. Perhaps Elsie would be so kind as to look it up
in her WAT (asseblief Elsie?)

Liza du Plooy

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Syntax

Howdy and thanks, Mark and Liza, en bykomend "Haai", "Dag" en "Dankie" vir
jou, Liza!

Liza:

> Ek weet nie hoe grammaties korrek dit is nie, maar ek gebruik 'hy was hom'
> en 'hy was homself'. Dus ook, 'sy was haarself' en 'ek was myself'.

Is dit jou persoonlike voorkeur, of is dit 'n tendens onder Afrikaaners
algemeen?  In elk geval glo ek dis vanwee Engels invloed.  Ek vermoed dat
"Ek was my", "Sy was haar" ens. die oorspronklike weerkerende vorme is, en
dat "Ek was myself", "Sy was haarself" ens. die respektiewe nadrukkelike
vorme is of oorspronklik was (b.v. "Nee, jy mag my nie was nie. Ek was
myself", "Sy behoef geen help nie. Sy was haarself.")

> Ek dink
> nie ek sou ooit 'sy was haar' sê nie. Dit voel asof daar 'n selfstandige
naamwoord kort - sy was > haar wat?

Hmm ... waarskynlik 'n brutale vraag ... ;-}  Liewer nie op 'n anwoord staan
nie!  Maar ernstig ... Kan dit wees dat jy hierdie vraag ("Haar wat?") stel
weens die veranderde gebruik wat door Engels invloed veroorsaakt word?  (Ek
hoop dat jy geen spyt van hierdie "uidaging" het nie.)

> I don't think I would ever say 'sy was haar'. It feels like the sentece
lacks a noun
>  - sy was haar what?

In other words, Liza deals with Afrikaans _haar_ meaning both 'her'
(objective or genitive) and 'herself', and a sentence like _Sy was haar_
("She washes "haar"") to her begs the question "Her what?"

I wonder if Liza's preference for the _...self_ forms in Afrikaans is
personal or due to a general trend within the language.  In either case, I
am tempted to postulate that it is due to English influence, that the
original reflexive forms are without _...self_, and that _...self_ used to
be used only for emphasis on reflexivity.  I gave these hypothetical
examples:

Nee, jy mag my nie was nie. Ek was myself.
No, you may not wash me. I wash myself.

Sy behoef geen help nie. Sy was haarself.
She doesn't need any help. She washes herself.

As opposed to non-emphatic _Ek was my_ 'I wash myself', 'I have a wash', and
_Sy was haar_ 'She washes herself', 'She has a wash'.

Groete/Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.:
> On a different note, can you tell me what the scots word 'callant' means?
> As is "he is a braw callant". Would this word be at all related to the
> Afrikaans 'kalant'? Unfortunately I do not have a dictionary to give you
the
> exact meaning of 'kalant'. Perhaps Elsie would be so kind as to look it up
> in her WAT (asseblief Elsie?)

Folks, please respond to this separately, under "Lexicon," "Semantics" or
"Etymology."

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