LL-L "History" 2004.02.08 (05) [E/French]

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.02.07 (06) [E]

> From: Tom Maguire <jmaguire at pie.xtec.es>
> Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.01.06 (06) [E]
> > About location of Germania in Flanders, I think the main source for this
> > hypothesis is the belgian historian Albert Delahaye. I don't know how
> > serious this hypothesis is and what to think about it. You can find some
> > information in dutch at this site :
> > http://home-1.concepts.nl/~delahaye/visie.htm
> > Frd ric Baert
> Hello Frederic,
> Tacitus describes Germania in this way:
> "Germany is separated from the Galli, the Rhaeti, and Pannonii, by the
> rivers Rhine and Danube; mountain ranges, or the fear which each feels
> for the other, divide it from the Sarmatae and Daci. Elsewhere ocean
> girds it, embracing broad peninsulas and islands of unexplored extent,
> where certain tribes and kingdoms are newly known to us, revealed by
> war. The Rhine springs from a precipitous and inaccessible height of the
> Rhaetian Alps, bends slightly westward, and mingles with the Northern
> Ocean. The Danube pours down from the gradual and gently rising slope of
> Mount Abnoba, and visits many nations, to force its way at last through
> six channels into the Pontus; a seventh mouth is lost in marshes."
> (Chapter 1 of "Germania".)
> Texas University website pictures this description in the following map:
> http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/ancient_germania.jpg
> Tacitus' description has Germania bordered by The Rhine, The Danube and
> the Atlantic Ocean. This is a bigger area of territory than Flanders.

I have some problems with touching historical theories, which are not
supported by historians. In literature one finds quite some books about
Atlantis, the Holy Grail, the pedigree of the Frankish king
Clodovech/Clovis, linking him somehow with Maria Magdalena from the Gospel
(I lost the reference).

Academic historians generally do not invest much time in these theories,
what generally contributes to the frustration of the discoverers.
>>From time to time somebody throws a message about one of these issues in a
newsnet list, provoking long threads with replies and often ending with
explosive flames.

Quite often these theories are based on a single source, or a cluster of
related sources. Common accepted knowledge on the contrary is often not
repeatedly supported with references in publications (the source is often a
combination of ancient texts with inscriptions on milestones, graves etc.
and nobody wants to include these many thousands of references, which
historically have lead to our actual knowledge, each time over and over in
every publication about ancient times.)

This does not exclude the possibility of findings, which require adjustments
of our common knowledge.

About “Germania”, what I learned, I could find back on the Larousse
Encyclopedia CD Rom (reproduced below)

Basically it includes 4 definitions:

1 - Germania, as described by Tacitus (cf. message of Tom). Later, as to
Larousse: “Germania magna” or “Germania libera”

2 - "Germania Inferior" (capital Köln) and
3 - "Germania Superior":
two Roman provinces West of the river Rhine. The East of the actual Belgium
belonged to Germania Inferior.

(Later, but not completely coincident: "Germania Secunda" and "Germania
Prima")

cf. Maps of Europe:
Year 1:
http://www.euratlas.com/big/0001big.jpg
Year 100;
http://www.euratlas.com/big/0100big.jpg
Year 200:
http://www.euratlas.com/big/0200big.jpg
Year 300:
http://www.euratlas.com/big/0300big.jpg
Year 400:
http://www.euratlas.com/big/0400big.jpg
Year 50:
http://www.euratlas.com/big/0500big.jpg

As concerning old texts of the Roman empire I found the AD 400 list of
dignitaries with areas of responsibility on the web at url:
http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~halsteis/notitia.htm
Please search with the “Find” function for “Germania” in:
http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~halsteis/occ001.htm
Also, illustrated, a version starting at:
http://www.fh-augsburg.de/~harsch/Chronologia/Lspost05/Notitia/not_intr.html

4. The "royaume de Germanie" (Kingdom of Germany): after the division at
Verdun in 843
This name was virtually completely replaced with “Saint Empire romain
germanique" (Holy Roman Empire) in French after 1024, and I guess also in
Latin.
(Actually one finally switched from “Germanie” to “Allemagne” in French; one
apparently started using "royaume des Allemands" in 911, a number easy to
remember)

Below:
Some texts pasted from the Larousse CD Rom

Regards,
Roger

-- quote (in French)

Germanie
en latin Germania

Ancienne contrée d'Europe centrale, limitée au N. par la mer du Nord et la
Baltique, Ã  l'E. par la Vistule, au S. par les Carpates et le Danube, et Ã
l'O. par le Rhin.

Peuplée progressivement par les Germains entre 1000 et 500 avant J.-C., elle
reçut son nom au plus tard au Ier s. avant J.-C. Jusqu'à cette époque, les
tribus germaniques progressèrent vers le S. et l'O., au détriment des
Celtes. En 55 avant J.-C., elles franchirent le cours inférieur du Rhin mais
furent repoussées par César. Auguste entreprit la conquête de la Germanie
jusqu'à l'Elbe : l'offensive dirigée par Drusus et Tibère fut freinée par la
révolte de l'Illyricum et le désastre de Quintilius Varus (9 après J.-C.).
Malgré les victoires de Germanicus (Idistaviso, 16), Tibère replia la
frontière sur le Rhin. En 90, Domitien fit de la région deux provinces : la
Germanie supérieure (chef-lieu Mayence) et la Germanie inférieure (chef-lieu
Cologne) après avoir occupé les champs Décumates. En dehors de l'Empire, la
Germania libera ou magna subit l'influence romaine. Les Romains
construisirent un limes, ligne continue fortifiée, entre Coblence et
Ratisbonne. La frontière rhénane, sur laquelle ils se replièrent en 257-258,
fut abandonnée dans les dernières années du IVe s. Au Ve s., les Francs, les
Saxons, les Burgondes et les Alamans pénétrèrent dans l'Empire.
© Larousse / VUEF 2002

royaume de Germanie

Né du démembrement de l'Empire carolingien et constitué par les territoires
de Francia orientalis accordés à Louis le Germanique en 843 au traité de
Verdun.
Après la mort de son dernier souverain carolingien, Louis III (ou IV)
l'Enfant, en 911, l'expression « royaume des Allemands » s'imposa sur un
territoire dont les limites étaient fluctuantes et qui allait
progressivement s'identifier au Saint Empire romain germanique. L'expression
« royaume de Germanie » cessa d'être employée à la mort d'Henri II, en 1024.
© Larousse / VUEF 2002

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