LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.02.22 (01) [E]

Sun Feb 22 19:47:30 UTC 2004

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From: kcaldwell31 at comcast.net <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.02.21 (01) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Lexicon
>
> I can think of an example right away: "guest book" or "guestbook."  As far
> as I know, the "proper" English term is "visitors' book," but "guest book"
> or "guestbook" have come into general use lately, certainly on the Web.
> Similarly, lately I have seen instances of French _livre des visiteurs_
> when, as far as I know, _livre d'or_ ("book of gold") is the correct
general
> term, _livre des voyageurs_ ("travelers' book") in hotels, and _registre
des
> visiteurs_ ("visitors'/guests' register") in museums and other such public
> places.  In other words, I would use _livre d'or_ or _registre des
> visiteurs_ for web pages, in English "visitors' book."  However, at least
> "guestbook" seems to be on the way of becoming established.

I'm a native (American) English speaker, and I've never heard the term
"visitors' book".  It's always "guest book", or (at hotels) "guest
register".  A museum or monument might have a "guest book" or "visitor log."

Kevin Caldwell

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From: kcaldwell31 at comcast.net <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.02.21 (03) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Lexicon

> Ed [Alexander wrote]:
>
> > I don't think so.  In fact, I find the term "visitors' book" to be
> strange,
> > and have only used and seen used the term "guest book" all my life, and
I
> > know it was the only term used by my American parents, both of whom were
> > born before WWI.
>
> Interesting!  I checked with a number of Americans from various parts of
the
> US, and all agreed that "guestbook" is new and "visitor's book" is
> established.  (Interestingly, they all considered "guestbook" anywhere
> between tolerable and acceptable because it makes sense at first
encounter.)
> Furthermore, I consulted a number of offline English dictionaries, and
none
> of them contained the term "guest book," "guest-book" or "guestbook," but
> all of them gave "visitors' book."  Could it be that in your family a
calque
> (loan translation) from an immigrant language has been handed down?  I
know
> that there are such calque traditions that are specific to ethnic groups
and
> even to families.

I don't know about Ed, but in my case I don't think so.  My family is mainly
of English and Scotch-Irish descent, arriving in America in 1727.  "Guest
book" (or possibly "guest registry") is the only term I've ever heard for
this (you're talking about the book that guests sign at a wedding or
funeral, or that some people keep in their homes for their guests to sign,
correct?  And thus its extension to visitor logs for web pages.)  I just
checked with my wife, and she immediately used the terms "guest book" and
"guest registry".

I also did a google search on "guest book" plus "wedding", and got over
200,00 hits, so I'd guess that "guest book" is the standard term in the
wedding industry.  A search on "visitors book" [the apostrophe is irrelevant
to the search] plus "wedding" gives only 1510 hits, with a lot of them in
the UK or New Zealand.  So maybe it's a US vs. UK thing, or even regional
within the US.

Kevin Caldwell

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From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.02.21 (03) [E]

At 03:49 PM 02/21/04 -0800, you wrote:
>Interesting!  I checked with a number of Americans from various parts of
the
>US, and all agreed that "guestbook" is new and "visitor's book" is
>established.  (Interestingly, they all considered "guestbook" anywhere
>between tolerable and acceptable because it makes sense at first
encounter.)
>Furthermore, I consulted a number of offline English dictionaries, and none
>of them contained the term "guest book," "guest-book" or "guestbook," but
>all of them gave "visitors' book."  Could it be that in your family a
calque
>(loan translation) from an immigrant language has been handed down?  I know
>that there are such calque traditions that are specific to ethnic groups
and
>even to families.

If you consider that 100% of my ancestors were here well prior to the US
Civil War, probably 75% before the War of Independence, and over 50% around
300 years ago from Northern Ireland, I don't imagine so.

I just asked my Canadian wife, whose grandmother came from Scotland and
whose stepfather came from England as a child, and she said that she has
always used the term guestbook.  She pointed out that it might be more
appropriate to use the term visitors' book at a church or other public
place, but even in these cases I find people refer to them as guest books.

I couldn't find either use in my 1914 dictionary - perhaps the use of such
books is more recent?  I note after a brief Google search that the majority
web use seems to be "guestbook".  However, I remain to be convinced that
this is anything more than a reflection of the most common use in every day
North American speech.

Ed

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From: jkrause <jkrause at old-sod-shanty.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Ron & List,
    I think I remember the term Guestbook being used before the desktop
computer became a commonplace.  It seems to me that whenever I visited my
Low German speaking uncle's home, my aunt would remind me in no uncertain
terms that I must sign the guestbook before leaving.  This was back in the
early to mid 1970s in Wichita, KS, USA.
Jim Krause

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From: Peter Snepvangers <snepvangers at optushome.com.au>
Subject: Lexicon

From: Luc Hellinckx
From: R. F. Hahn
On a personal note, I am not terribly in favor of the use of "mother
language."  There must be millions of people that were not taught their
native languages by mothers but by grandmothers, fathers, uncles, neighbors
or whoever.

Hello Ron and Luc,
I enjoyed your discussion on the usage of "mother language" versus native
language. I always thought mother language was coined as a reference to
pagan religious use of naming the planet "mother earth"  or another example
using "princess Europa" as the personification of Europe. To me mother
tongue or mother language is not offensive from a politically correct
perspective, although I can understand how it may be for some people.
Perhaps I am wrong, but I think gender neutral evereything is boring and a
seperate issue to the historical misuse of gender in male dominated
societies. Can't we have just a little bit of diversification in our new
rules??? ( this is where the fembots throw bricks at me:) ). To me the
notion of language being nurtured is appealing. The word native probably
would conjure up issues of confusion with indidgenous for some people.
Incidentally, I have heard some people of European descent in Australia
refer to English as their "First language, (and Dutch, German, French etc
being their Second but preferred language.
On a side note, I enjoy this web site with its new words.
Web site dealing with "lexpionage"
http://www.wordspy.com
Cheers
Peter Snepvangers
snepvangers at optushome.com.au

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