LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.02.23 (04) [E]

Tue Feb 24 00:04:15 UTC 2004

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
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From: d.denkers at home.nl <d.denkers at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2004.02.23 (03) [E]

Hi Peter and Ron,

> From:The only word I can think of that
> begins with Q is quatsch because I remember my father used to say it. I am
> not s

> Possibly from German _Quatsch_ 'nonsense'.  It is related to the Lowlands
> Saxon adjective _dwatsch_ 'silly' and _kwaad'_ 'evil', 'bad'.

It is a word strictly used  by people living near the German border. So it
is typically "east-dutch" . Quatsch is used In Gelderland,Brabant and
Limburg so you can even consider it as "south-eastern Dutch"

It is used as a (very) strong Nonsense. Quatsch! And AFAIK it is "imported"
from Germany.

Regards,

Rick [Denkers]

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From: Jannie Lawn <jannie.lawn at ntlworld.com>
Subject:  LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.02.23 (02) [E]

Hallo all

Tom said: Don't know whether this has been mentioned this or not but
isn't it "mother tongue" and "native language" in English?

I have been wondering about that.  If I had had children (which I haven't),
their 'mother tongue' might well have been Dutch, or they might have grown
up bi-lingually, with both Dutch and English playing an equal role in the
early years.  However, the 'native language' would definitely have been
English, as that is the language of the country.  What about being inventive
and calling it our 'original language' or 'first language'?

Groeten, Jannie Lawn-Zijlstra
Cambridge, UK

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Thanks, Rick and Jannie.

Hey, Rick!  I believe this is your posting debut.  If so, welcome among the
"vocal minority"!

Rick:

> It is used as a (very) strong Nonsense. Quatsch! And AFAIK it is
"imported"
> from Germany.

This is how it may be used in German as well.  To me it seems inherently
more casual than _Unsinn_ 'nonsense'.  Both can be used in a very emphatic
way though, depending upon context and intonation.

By the way, in the Lowlands Saxon (Low German) dialects of Germany the
equivalents are (with _kraam_ / _tüyg_ 'stuff'):

tüynkraam (Tüünkraam < tüynen 'to talk nonsense', 'to lie')
tüyderkraam ~ tüydelkraam (Tüderkraam ~ Tüdelkraam
   < tüydern ~ tüydeln 'to wind', 'to spin (yarn)', 'to tell tall tales',
   'to talk nonsense')
kwatsch(kraam) (Quatschkraam ~ Kwatschkraam < kwatschen
   'to chat (idly)', 'to talk nonsense')
dum tüyg (dumm Tüüg < dum 'stupid', 'foolish')
blöydsin (Blöödsinn < blöyd 'stupid', sin 'sense')
kwark (Quark ~ Kwark < Slavonic *tvarek for a type of soft cheese
   + kwarken 'to quack', 'to nag', 'to cry (like a baby)')
hop-hay (Hopphei -- orig. onomatop., substitute word)
jippel-jappel (Jippeljappel -- orig. onomatop., substitute word)
spyjöök (Spijöök 'silly stuff', 'joke', 'prank', 'foolishness')

In the sense of 'to have silly notions (in one's head = ... in d'n kop)':
grappen (Grappen 'joke', 'prank', 'mood')
kneep (Kneep 'pinch(es)', 'fib(s)', 'nonsense')
vlöyt (Flööt 'nonsense', '(silly) notions')
vlusen (Flusen 'nonsense', '(silly) notions')
grillen (Grillen 'crickets', '(silly) notions')
krayenschyt (Kreihenschiet 'crows' shit')

Note also a wealth of expressions for the same in Scots:

blethers
bletheration
haiver(s)
clavers
(buff an) styte
raible

In exclamations:
Blethers!
Haivers!
Hoot awa!
Toot(s)!
Hoot(s) toot(s)!
Fine day!

I'm sure there are more where these come from.  As far as I can tell,
_blether_ has the same dual function as does LS _kwatschen_: (1) 'to talk
idly', 'to chat along', (2) 'to talk nonsense'.

Jannie:

> I have been wondering about that.  If I had had children (which I
haven't),
> their 'mother tongue' might well have been Dutch, or they might have grown
> up bi-lingually, with both Dutch and English playing an equal role in the
early
> years.  However, the 'native language' would definitely have been English,
> as that is the language of the country.  What about being inventive and
calling
> it our 'original language' or 'first language'?

Sure, but how about 'maternal language' and 'paternal language' for people
with two native languages where they learned one from their mother and one
from their father?  That's how I do it.

In Lowlands Saxon I sometimes refer to LS as _vadderspraak_, because I got
it mostly from my father, his parents and his mates, i.e., from a "paternal
milieu."  (My maternal grandfather, a speaker of West Pomeranian LS, was
killed before I was born.)  I even called one of my published poems
_vadderspraak_ as a match to one entitled _vadderland_ in a series entitled
_Vadderland - Vadderspraak: un annere Riemels ahn Riem_, dealing with
father-son issues representative of _patria_ issues.

By the way, the notion of "mother tongue" goes beyond Indo-European.  In
Turkish (Oghuz < Western Turkic < Turkic < Altaic) you say _ana dili_ for
the same thing, literally "mother tongue" (and, interestingly, _ata sözü_
"father word" for 'proverb', perhaps because father's are/were in charge of
teaching morals).  Similarly in Uyghur (Eastern Turkic < Turkic < Altaic,
used mostly in Chinese-administered regions) _ana tili_ "mother language."
Likewise in Mongolian (< Mongolic < Altaic): _eke kele_ (> ex(e) xel "mother
tongue").  East Asian languages, on the other hand, have references to
"ancestral," "ethnic" and "own" in creating terms for "native language."
OK, so I may be getting carried away (again), but I cannot help wondering if
a contributing factor is that in "tribal" societies girls and women tended
to be abducted and traded intertribally, so that many people had a "mother
language" and a "(paternal =) tribal (= common) language."  :)  I wonder if
this is consistent with terminological tendencies in Native American
languages.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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