LL-L "Orthography" 2004.01.26 (02) [D/E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 26.FEB.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: d.denkers at home.nl <d.denkers at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2004.01.25 (04) [E]

> > Hi, Luc, Holger and other Lowlanders!

> > by way of foreign influence.  I guess that in the case of Dutch it is
due
> to
> > French influence, which also caused it in English and Scots.  Graphemic
> > representation then came to be considered necessary.
> >

It is a popular mistake to believe that the bulk of "latin words" in Dutch
came with the French.
The Netherlands was part of Spain during the 1500's . In that time a lot of
Spanish( = latin) influences arrived in the Dutch language.

After the war ( roughly 1550-1650) against Spain, The Netherlands was one of
the "superpowers" in the World. The contacts with England were intensived it
that period. At that time Dutch words ( like landscape) arrived in the Engli
sh Language. I think that the word initials /s/ - /z/ entered English/Scots
in that very same period. But, to be honest, it is an educated guess...

And not much later dutch words were used in the Russian Language. One of the
prime examples of that is the russian word for hairdresser( or better
barber) (in latin, phonetic): parjiekmacherskaja, or in dutch...
pruikenmaker, wigmaker.

Regards,

Rick Denkers

> > In German it did not happen.  Initial /s/ is always pronounced [z]
before
> a
> > vowel and [s] before a consonant; [z-] and [s-] are thus allophones of
> /s-/.
> > Certain foreign terms were imported and are supposed to be pronounced
with
> > an initial [s].  These are marked "foreign" in the lexicon, i.e., are
> > treated differently from native or nativized words.
> >
> > It is similar in Lowlands Saxon (Low German) of Germany and used among
> > Mennonites.
> .....
> Hello Ron !
> Let me add some little correction to Your words: In Eastern Friesland Low
> Saxon we don't have the strict rule of initial _s_ being [z]. You often
find
> initial [s] (word initial as well as syllable initial) in genuine words.
In
> some cases however the use of [s] vs. [z] varies between speakers (partly
> depending on their local heritage) while in other cases the distinction is
> general. For example "up söört" (separated) must always be [Up sœ:@t].
> Depending on the surrounding sounds You also often find a sound between
> those [s] and [z].
> In several foreign words initial [s] takes the place of German [ts] or
[S].
> For example sīğâr (cigar), sīğräet (cigarette), sukkeló (chocolate).
> In cases like "sīw'læren" words belonging to the genuine inventory prove
to
> be loans and their initial [s] might really be due to alien influence.
> Regards
> Holger
>
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Orthography
>
> Thanks, Holger.  Very interesting!
>
> > For example "up söört" (separated) must always be [Up sœ:@t].
>
> Can you also say this without the _up_ in front?  If so, is it still
> [sœ:@t], or is it [zœ:@t] then?  (I'm wondering about devoicing due to
> assimilation, as no doubt you have gathered by now.)
>
> > In several foreign words initial [s] takes the place of German [ts] or
> [S].
> > For example sīğâr (cigar), sīğräet (cigarette), sukkeló (chocolate).
>
> This applies to several dialects outside Eastern Friesland as well,
> certainly in the first two cases.  In these cases I posit
> (loanword-specific) /c/ as underlying, assuming that it is realized as
> either [ts] or [s], depending on the dialect; e.g., _cygaar_ [(t)si'gQ:@]
> 'cigar' (Germ. _Zigarre_), _cygaret_ [(t)sigQ'rEt] 'cigaret' (Germ.
> _Zigarette_), _cukker_ ['(t)sUk@] 'sugar' (Germ. _Zucker_), _cippel_
> ['(t)sIpl] 'onion', _cedel_ ['(t)se:dl] ~ ['(t)sE:dl] 'sheet', 'piece of
> paper' (Germ. _Zettel_), _cireyn_
> [(t)si're.In] ~ (nativized) _sireyn_ [zi're.In] 'elderbush', _citroon_
> [(t)si'tro:n] 'lemon' (Germ. _Zitrone_), _cik_ [(t)sIk] (vs. native-rooted
> _jit_) 'goat', _cop_ [(t)sOp] 'pigtail' ('hairbraid' < German _Zopf_,
> Central German _Zopp_, vs. native-rooted _top_ 'top', 'point', 'end',
> 'pigtail'), _Cigoyner_
> [(t)si'gO.In@] (vs. native or nativized _Tater_) 'Gypsy', 'Roma' (Germ.
> _Zigeuner_).
>
> In most cases it is easy to tell what is native _s-_ and what is
> foreign-derived _c-_.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: d.denkers at home.nl <d.denkers at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2004.01.25 (04) [E]

> > Hey, Luc,Holger  Lowlanders!
> >
> > Luc, you brought up an interesting and "hairy" issue by mentioning the
use
> > of <z> in Dutch, the issue of "phoneme inventory augmentation due to
> foreign
> > influence."
> >
> > As far as we can tell, Germanic languages inherently do not have a
> > word-initial /s/ - /z/ opposition but some of them, like Dutch, acquired
> it
> > by way of foreign influence.  I guess that in the case of Dutch it is
due
> to
> > French influence, which also caused it in English and Scots.  Graphemic
> > representation then came to be considered necessary.
> >
> > In German it did not happen.  Initial /s/ is always pronounced [z]
before
> a
> > vowel and [s] before a consonant; [z-] and [s-] are thus allophones of
> /s-/.

I found this "poem" dating from 1566. Mark the use of the S.

Een kort, dic, vet paterken,
laetst zijn nonnekens ondersochte,
Oft sy niet besmet en waren met Geuserije,
En vraegde int ronde wat haerlien dochte,
Dat ment geestelijc verjaegde, en haer goet verkochte,
Daer sy sachte op leefden in voorleden tije?
"tJae, seyder een jong nonneken, ick ben immers blije,
Want ic mach nu huwen, ten besten dat ick kan."
tIs goet sprack de pater, en wat seghde ghije,
Suster Peternelleken, hevet u niet an?
"Ba! neent, pater, ic heb ooc liever eenen man,
Want ic was gekloostert tegen mynen wille."

And Now something from just two years later:
1568
De prins van Orangiën is te velde gecomen

De prins van Orangiën is te velde gecomen,
Vive le Geus!
Ghy papen als apen, ghy meucht wel schromen,
Bedeckt u neus;
Door den prince, spijt alle papisten,
Wy blijven Geus.
Al die papisten nae haer goetdencken,
Vive le Geus!
Zy meenden Godes leer te krenken,
Sy zijn soo beus;
Al door den prins, spijt alle papisten,
Wy blijven Geus.
Godes leeringh sal blijven staen,
Vive le Geus!

You can see that the S and Z are both used. It is clear that this period was
a transition period.
Another interesting thing is: Vive le Geus! It clearly comes from a latin
language.

Regards,

Rick Denkers

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