From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul  1 16:06:49 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:06:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.01 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUL.2004.090649.0700.>

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From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.06.30 (05) [E]

I am sorry about Jean Duvivier. But he doesn't at all get the point
where this is all about in Belgium.
If you live in an area where you know people have been speaking a
certain language for ages.
The suddenly a generally more wealthy class comes to live in the rural
settings of your village and they do not want to adapt to the local
language, because they take it for granted that their language has to be
understood everywhere (which means the clear depreciation of the local
language), then I consider this as a pretentious invasion of people who
want to impose THEIR social attitude to the people where they immigrate,
refusing to learn the other language as a form of the so called courtoisie.
In Belgium it has allways been the other way up. We as Flemish are
generally bi-lingual. The Walloon or Brussels French spoken people (the
latter is changing) considered dutch as an ugly useless language, so why
would they learn it? (Allthough it is spoken by 22 million people in
Europe: is that a small language?????)
This has nothing to do with a difference of dialects as Jean Duvivier
quotes. It has nothing to do with helpfullness towards tourists. This
mentality of everything changing into English should at first be
explained to those who refuse to speak or learn another language
whatsoever. In the outskirts of Brussels you find countless people of them.

denis dujardin
vlaanderen

----------

From: jean duvivier <duvassoc at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.06.30 (05) [E]

Hi Ron,

I am afraid I did not express myself properly. Recognizing the legitimacy of
people of different regions wanting to retain their local language or
dialect, my point was that this should not be a first language for children
to learn, otherwise they will be left out of major activities in the world
we live in. As a second language if they so desire, why not.
However, I have detected an excessive emphasis placed on the local language
being the most important. This is partly a political issue, and all too
often , a manufactured one, to the detriment of the people themselves,
One can have two or more languages in use. For instance Switzerland. They
even have a fourth, Romanche, in a small valley. But all the Swiss I have
ever met spoke usually French and/or German but dealt with foreigners in
English.
We can remember the various attempts in the past 200 years to artificially
construct an international language, for instance Esperanto. But this was
artificial and did not become widely accepted.
I have no particular love for English of any kind, although I learned it and
know it well. But in the increasingly interactive and interconnected world
we live in, a single language that can be used widely is a benefit to
society. English  is happening anyway from necessity and ease of use,
whether one likes it or not.
My point about the local languages was not to disparage them but to keep a
sense of balance and not get carried away.
Thank you for your comments.

Dank U wel. Vielen Dank. Merci beaucoup. Muchas gracias. Muito obrigado.
Mille grazie. Ephaisto. Shukran. Domo arigato.

John

----------

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: "Language use" [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn
> Subject: Language use
>
> In such cases I can see "activists" (preferably many of which come from
> various walks of life with which other speakers can identify) playing the
> role not only of language assertion agents but also of moral support
agents,
> convincing the defeatist average speaker that the language *is* worthy of
> status and preservation, and that its extinction is *not* inevitable.

I don't think activists of any kind actually manage to do this.

I also don't think the average language speaker is defeatist either. They're
not trying to achieve anything in the first place because they don't see the
point. Defeatism would be if you wanted to achieve something and gave up.

The question "What can we do to make Scots speakers speak Scots?" used to be
asked amongst Scots activists but I think most of them (or at least the ones
that have been around long enough) have accepted that you can't _make_
anyone speak it.

Activists appeal to government, education boards, broadcasting companies and
so on for more recognition of the language, or provide more resources such
as disctionaries (the old SNDA), grammars (Colin), literature (me :) or
everything (Andy). What they don't do is appeal to language speakers to
"speak the language more". This wouldn't work because in the Scottish
Lowlands, for example, most speakers speak the language all the time at home
and amongst friends and relatives, but would feel like a fish out of water
doing this with people in the streets and in shops. They're already speaking
it in every situation they feel comfortable with and to get them to speak it
in the shops, you would have to raise the status of the language in their
eyes (or lower the status of the shopkeeper :)

Successful language activism consists of appealing to (or setting up)
organisations that are capable of raising the public profile of the
language, ie, capable of raising its status. If this is done well, then the
speakers of the language may take up on it at some critical mass.

Even if language activists could _make_ people speak the language, it
doesn't mean it would change the fortunes of the language. A few centuries
ago almost every native of the Scottish Lowlands spoke Scots, but that
didn't mean it was considered suitable for use in schools, nor in print,
unless the orthography made it look like a dialect of English.

A language can be spoken by everyone in a country, but that doesn't mean it
has high status.

As I said before it's all about status. This is what makes someone decide on
which language they want passed on to their children, spoken in public
situations &c.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language use

Hi, guys!

Thank you for your interesting responses.

Jean:

> Recognizing the legitimacy of
> people of different regions wanting to retain their local language or
> dialect, my point was that this should not be a first language for
children
> to learn, otherwise they will be left out of major activities in the world
> we live in. As a second language if they so desire, why not.

Why as a *second* language and not as a first, as a native language, being
their ancestral language, the language of their parents and of their
forebears?  Why would it have to be relegated to second or lower rank and
the non-native language of the state or of some state conglomeration be
imported into the home as the overriding one?  Simply because the home
language is nationally and internationally considered insignificant by
certain people?  Should it not be the family's language that comes first and
the language of the state second where they are not the same?  It tends to
be native languages that are utilized in language arts.  Does this mean that
after a while we'll have poetry, shortstories, novels and songs only in a
handful of languages in the world, eventually to be whittled down to English
only (as it has been in rock and pop music already)?  Apparently the
frequently offered argument that children who grow up with two or more
languages are held back educationally does not hold water.  On the contrary:
while there may or may not be some initial delay, bi- or multilingual
children, on the whole, have been known to do better in the long run, to
have "a leg up" on monolingual children.

Does it mean that now, that the number of the European Union member states
has increased again, the people of Malta, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania,
Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Slovenia and Greek
Cyprus should stop teaching their children Maltese, Estonian, Latvian,
Livian, Lithuanian, Polish, Kashubian, Czech, Slovak, Rusyn, Hungarian,
Romanian, Gagaus, Slovenian, Croatian, Yiddish and Romany because these are
"insignificant" in the great scheme of things, should just adopt English (or
French or German if they must) and be done with it, though they can still
have grandma and grandpa teach the kiddies some ditties in the old and soon
to be forgotten languages?   And what about some of the "older" member
states?  Should Danes, Swedes, Finns, Dutch, Italians and Greeks just "get
with it," because their languages fall into the same "insignificant"
category, leave alone the minorities in their countries (Rom, Jutes,
Faeroese, Kalallisut, Skanians, Saami, Low Saxons, Limburgers, Frisians,
Zeelanders, Tatars, Karelians, Albanians, Catalans, Corsicans,
Franco-Provençals, Slovenians, Croatians, Friulians, Ladins, Occitans,
Sardinians, Bayuvarians, Bulgarians, Macedonians, Arumansh (Romanian) and
Turks), and the minority languages of the EU states with the more
"significant" languages English, French, Spanish, Portuguese and German
(Romany, Cornish, Gaelic, Irish, Welsh, Scots, Shelta, Basque, Catalan,
Galician, Breton, Flemish, Occitan, Italian, Asturian, Miranda do Douro,
Hungarian, Croatian, Slovenian, Danish, Frisian, Lowlands Saxon, Polish and
Sorbian)?

Again: interregional and international language(s) is/are definitely needed.
But does this mean that linguistic (and cultural) diversity needs to be
sacrificed to that end?

Sandy:

> Even if language activists could _make_ people speak the language,
> it doesn't mean it would change the fortunes of the language.

I wasn't suggesting that they could or should.  I totally agree that
speakers can only be motivated to use of and loyalty to low-prestige
languages by means of creating incentives.  This includes raising language
profile, prestige and pride, including also the development of language arts
with broad appeal.

Again, thanks for sharing, guys!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul  1 17:33:06 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 10:33:06 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2004.07.01 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUL.2004.103306.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Administrativia

Dear Lowlanders,

A number of people have joined us since my last administrative message (June
16), and I would like to welcome them on everyone's behalf.  At the end of
this message you will find a list of their places of residence.

Please, please, pretty please, read and understand the rules and guidelines,
folks!  It's really important.

Rules and Guidelines:
Dutch: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=regels
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Russian: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules-ru

Even some people who have been with us for a while persistently ignore the
following rules:

(1) Keep subjects separate:
     Only one topic per posting!

(2) Stick to the subject title:
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     Just stick with the one we have, even if you think
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     needs to be.

(3) Edit quotes:
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     or after an unedited, complete quoted LL-L issue, please do not
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are
     relevant to your response.

(4) Give credit:
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     If you just hit the "reply" button, it will automatically give
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     more specific, and you owe authors the courtesy of
     crediting them by name.

As our long-standing members will attest, I very rarely come down hard on
people, very rarely "throw the book" at them.  Needless to say that "very
rarely" does not mean "never."  I will in fact do so if someone keeps
breaking these rules consistently despite reminders, especially if I get the
distinct impression they do so on purpose, to provoke me in a "passive
agressive" fashion (which has happened).  I do know that some of you have
only very rudimentary computer and emailing skills.  That is all right,
quite a different matter.  I can work around that, still encourage you to
muster the courage to share your thoughts, knowledge and questions (also if
you think your "technical" and language skills are wanting).


TEMPORARY ABSENCE
Before you take a trip or for some other reason need to stop LL-L mail
arriving for a given length of time, please write to us
(lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net) to let us know the date you want mail to be
stopped and the date you want mail to be resumed. As some of our members can
attest, this has been working really well, certainly beats the old, crude
method of signing off and on again. Once in a while people find themselves
unsubscribed without notice. Some of them immediately suspect the worst:
that I have "booted them out" for some infraction or other. (I know this for
sure only about those that contact me.) Please do not jump to this
conclusion unless you have received prior reprimands and warnings (which has
occurred very rarely, not at all for well over one year). If you find
yourself disconnected from Lowlands-L, the reason is most likely that the
automated server has unsubscribed your address because of repeated
"bouncing," i.e., because your mail servers keep informing the list server
that you cannot be reached or is filled above quota. Most of the time this
is due to temporary disconnection. Sometimes the reason is that a
subscriber's junk mail filter (or "spam" filter) has not been "told" to
exempt Lowlands-L mail, which is why our mailings do not arrive in your
inboxes. So, if Lowlands-L mail stops coming, please first check your "spam"
filters and adjust them if necessary, and only contact me about the problem
if all of the above fails. Should you indeed be disconnected, please write
to me or resubmit an application
(http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=subscription). I'll be more than
happy to bring you swiftly back to the fold.

Again, dear Lowlanders, thanks for your support and cooperation and for all
those interesting contributions past and future!

Regards,
Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
Founder & Administrator, Lowlands-L
lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
http://www.lowlands-l.net

***

Places of Residence of New Lowlanders since June 16, 2004:



     Australia:
          New South Wales:
               Newcastle [1]
     Austria (Österreich):
          Vienna (Wien):
               Vienna (Wien) [1]
     Belgium (België, Belgique, Belgien):
          Western Flanders (West-Vlaanderen]:
               Izegem [2]
     Germany (Deutschland):
          Berlin:
               Berlin [1]
     Malaysia:
          Selangor:
               Kajang [1]
     Netherlands (Nederland):
          Northern Holland (Noord-Holland):
               Amstelveen [1]
     Panama (Panamá):
          Panama (Panamá):
               Panama (Panamá) [1]
     Philippines (Pilipinas):
          Manila:
               Makati City (Bayan ng Makati) [1]
     Romania (Româniă):
          Bucarest (Bucureşti):
               Bucarest (Bucureşti) [1]
     United Kingdom:
          England:
               Lancashire:
                    St. Helens [1]
          Northern Ireland:
               County Down:
                    Newtownards [1]
     United States of America:
          Pennsylvania:
               Exton [1]
               Pittsburgh [1]

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul  1 17:42:35 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 10:42:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.01 (03) [E/Gaelic]
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUL.2004.104235.0700.>

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From: Gaidheal <gaidheal at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.01 (01) [E]


Latha math, a Lowlanders:

I've just finished reading a book called "Spoken Here" by Mark Abley. As
many of you probably know, it's about endangered languages and discusses
some problems with bringing them out of the emergency room and back home, if
you'll allow me that metaphor. He suggests as one of the problems to be
overcome is not to make people speak the language- not to institutionalize
it as the Irish government has unfortunately done to Irish Gaelic -but to
make them want to speak it. This is the hard part, finding a way to make the
language trendy and popular. You've got to get radio, TV, websites - you
have to modernize the language. All languages need this. And unfortunately,
in this globalized world (sounds redundant, doesn't it?) it's hard to get
corporations to do translate what's necessary.
One solution is open-source software. It's a beautiful idea, and any small
language can translate an open-source operating system. It could be done for
any of the Lowlands languages, any language that can write in the Latin
alphabet, and many that can't.
Anyway, that's the gist of what I'm getting from skimming these e-mails -
that you're discussing why people won't speak their languages. It's because
of a combination of factors, some too local to be spoken of broadly. But I
think it's a thinking their language is insignificant and unhelpful: that's
why parents won't pass it down to their children.

Beannachdan,
Uilleam Òg mhic Sheumais

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language use

'S math sin!  Mòran taing, a Uilleam!

It might be helpful to assumedly many of our members if you or someone else
(perhaps our open-source champion Kenneth) briefly explained what
"open-source software" is, also what its potentials are.

Mar sin leibh an dr� sda!

Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul  1 19:21:34 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 12:21:34 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.01 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUL.2004.122134.0700.>

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From: Andy (Scots-Online) <andy at scots-online.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.01 (03) [E/Gaelic]

Uilleam Òg mhic Sheumais wrote:

> I've just finished reading a book called "Spoken Here" by Mark Abley. As
> many of you probably know, it's about endangered languages and discusses
> some problems with bringing them out of the emergency room and back home,
if
> you'll allow me that metaphor. He suggests as one of the problems to be
> overcome is not to make people speak the language- not to institutionalize
> it as the Irish government has unfortunately done to Irish Gaelic -but to
> make them want to speak it. This is the hard part, finding a way to make
the
> language trendy and popular. You've got to get radio, TV, websites - you
> have to modernize the language. All languages need this. And
unfortunately,
> in this globalized world (sounds redundant, doesn't it?) it's hard to get
> corporations to do translate what's necessary.
> One solution is open-source software. It's a beautiful idea, and any small
> language can translate an open-source operating system. It could be done
for
> any of the Lowlands languages, any language that can write in the Latin
> alphabet, and many that can't.
> Anyway, that's the gist of what I'm getting from skimming these e-mails -
> that you're discussing why people won't speak their languages. It's
because
> of a combination of factors, some too local to be spoken of broadly. But I
> think it's a thinking their language is insignificant and unhelpful:
that's
> why parents won't pass it down to their children.

It helps if the language is part of everyday life. If it is confined to the
home and close acquaintances the 'power' langaugae soon replaces it. For
example Gaelic in the highlands and islands. I have no Gaelic. If I decided
to move to A Gaelic speaking area I could get by fine without it. All
institutions, workplaces etc. operate in English. I would be under no
compulsion to acquire Gaelic. As an outsider the locals are obliged to
occomodate me linquistically - not the reverse. Interesting that the
Government accepts Gaelic language proficiency as an alternative to English
when aliens are granted citizenship. Why not demand is a requirement to move
to (or remain in) Gaelic speaking areas - Economic arguments no doubt make
that one a non-starter. (Gaelic is off-list I'm juist using it as an example
of Lesser-used vs power language)

Andy Eagle

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul  1 22:16:37 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:16:37 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.07.01 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUL.2004.151637.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language use

Folks,

Perhaps we really should have a Frequently Asked Question webpage, since
certain questions just keep on coming.

The following question arrived from a non-subscriber:

<quote>
W. Schrobilgen (ddwines at yahoo.ca, from Canada) wrote:
Is the Luxemburgian language not part of the Low-German/Lowlands language
group?
Why does the Luxembourg\'s native language not fall into this grouping?
</quote>

Answer:
Quite some time ago, the membership of Lowlands-L decided to in its area of
consideration Limburgish, although, technically speaking, it has one foot,
or just a couple of toes, outside the Lowlands-range language varieties,
beginning to transition over to Central/Middle German (e.g., _ich_ vs. _ik_
for 'I').  Limburgish is still predominantly Low Franconian.  Luxembourgish,
on the other hand, is clearly Central/Middle German, belonging to the
Moselle range of Franconian dialects, having gained language status only
because it is predominant in a country and thus received official status.
It is very similar to the Rhenish-Franconian German dialects of Germany.
For this reason, the members of Lowlands-L decided not to officially include
Luxembourgish, though Luxembourgish, like other German dialects and Yiddish,
is frequently mentioned in discussions.

Examples of cognates:
1=English 2=Dutch 3=L.Saxon  4=W.Frisian  5=Limbg. 6=Luxb. 7=Germ.
1 path  2 pad  3 pad  4 paad  5 paod  6 Pad  7 Pfad /pfaad/
1 pole  2 paal  3 paal  4 peal  5 paol  6 Pal  7 Pfal /pfaal/
1 apple  2 appel  3 appel  4 apel  5 appel  6 Apel  7 Apfel /apfel/
1 open  2 open  3 apen  4 --  5 aope  6 offen  7 offen
1 cup  2 kop  3 kop  4 kop  5 köp  6 Kop  7 Kopf
1 sleep  2 slaap  3 slaap  4 sliep  5 sjlaop  6  7 Schlaf /šlaaf/
1 up  2 op  3 op~up  4 op  5 op  6 op 7 auf
1 tide  2 tijd  3 tied  4 tiid  5 tied  6 Zäit /tseit/ 7 Zeit /tsait/
1 let  2 laten  3 laten  4 (fer)litte  5 loate  6 loossen  5 lassen
1 eat  2 eten  3 eten  4 ite  5 aete  6 iessen 7 essen
1 water  2 water  3 water  4 wetter  5 water  6 waasser  7 Wasser
1 out  2 uit  3 uut  4 út  5 oet /uut/  6 aus  7 aus
1 foot  2 voet /fuut/  3 vout /fout/  4 foet /fuut/  5 voot /foot/  6 Fouss
7 Fuß /fuus/
1 heart  2 hert  3 hart  4 hart  5 herte  6 Häerz /herts/  7 Herz /herts/

So...

1,2,3,4,5, 6: p-   =   7: pf-
1,2,3,4,5, 6: -pp-   =   7: -pf-
1,2,3,4,5,6: -p   =   7: -pf
1,2,3,4,5: -p-   =   6,7: -ff-
1,2,3,4,5,6: -p   =  7: -f

1,2,3,4,5: t-   =   6,7: ts-
1,2,3,4,5: -t-   =   6,7: -ss-
1,2,3,4,5: -t   =   6,7: -ts
1,2,3,4,5: -t   =   6,7: -s

As you can see from the above, in the second group (old /t/), an partially
in the first group, Luxembourgish (not unlike Yiddish) falls with German in
a separate category based on the absence or presence of "High German shift."

I hope this clarified it.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul  1 22:18:33 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:18:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.01 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUL.2004.151833.0700.>

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.01 (01) [E]

> From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
> Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.06.30 (05) [E]
>
> The suddenly a generally more wealthy class comes to live in the rural
> settings of your village and they do not want to adapt to the local
> language, because they take it for granted that their language has to be
> understood everywhere
> We as Flemish are
> generally bi-lingual. The Walloon or Brussels French spoken people (the
> latter is changing) considered dutch as an ugly useless language, so why
> would they learn it?

Hello,

I have a different perception of this. Let me start saying that I do
projects all over Belgium, Northern France and in the South of the
Netherlands. Momentarily I'm involved for several months in a reorganization
project for a company at Brussels airport. Before I did a project in the
headquarters of Belgian Mail (downtown Brussels) and last year I did the
start-up of the TDS plant at the Southern outskirt of Brussels for supplying
preassembled parts to the Volkswagen Brussels plant. I have no formation in
sociology, nor in political science, but I have been recruiting, training
and helping to develop hundreds of people in this area as part of new
start-ups or change projects. My humble perception is a bit different.

A Over time

In the mid seventies I regularly participated in commission work for
standardization of gear wheel and belt transmissions at the offices of the
Belgian Standardization Commission BIN-IBN. (I was member as delegate of
Volvo Car Sint Truiden, and I represented Belgium at the ISO standardization
meetings in Bad Dürkheim, in 1978 I think it was). At that time, when
holding a meeting in Brussels, it was judged polite to hold the meeting in
French, since Walloons did not understand Dutch. So one could have meetings
fully in French with 19 Dutch speakers and one 1 French speaker. I remember
that at one of these meetings we realized we were holding the meeting in
French with Dutch speakers only.

Things have changed though:

In larger organizations and companies in the Brussels area, staff has to be
bilingual while operators may be monolingual French or Dutch speaking. It
practically means we have a downward pull in choice of the spoken language.
The supervisor adjusts to the language of the operator and not vice versa.

Between equals, people speak their own language each.

When taking for example the mechanics at Brussels airport, I'm working with:
while each mechanic speaks his own language, technical vocabulary is shared.
- For car parts one generally uses, as in the dialects, French terminology:
"jante" and not "velg", "embrayage" and not "koppeling".
- For airport equipment one generally uses English terminology "push back
tractor, towing bar, shear bolt" etc. or trademarks as "Goldhofer" for a
German nose-lifter-tower.
This works very well, technical support intervention teams on the tarmac
generally consists of a pair mechanics, and quite often the two belong to
different language groups.

Walloon mechanics I'm familiar with come from as far East a the Waremme area
and as far West as the Tournai area. Dutch speaking mechanics I'm familiar
with come from East Flanders, Flemish Brabant and Limburg.
When I talk to these folks I speak Belgian Dutch and Belgian French:
They would find it extremely strange me using "jij / je" in stead of "gij /
ge".
They would find it extremely strange me saying "soixante douze" and not
"septante deux".
I guess in both cases I would not really be part of the group, but some kind
of a snob.

I never heard these Walloon people speak Walloon or Picard in Brussels.

Our mechanics of Flemish Brabant switch to a strong Brabantish coloration
when talking to each other, but this variant is easily understandable by
others. I heard a Limburgish mechanic suddenly switch from Dutch to
Limburgish yesterday when arguing emotionally with an aircraft engineer
around a mechanical problem when lifting a plane with separate hydraulical
jacks. Emotion clearly can provoke a language switch.

B – Families

Since the North and the Brussels area are doing economically better than
parts of Wallonia, we have a drain of some Walloon people to the North.
People who migrated to the Brussels outskirts I’m familiar with speak French
and French only except for a few words of Dutch. I never had a feeling they
had a negative stance versus Dutch. They just do not understand the
political hassle. All Walloon immigrants I know, and it is quite some, send
their kids to the Dutch language schools in the municipalities in Flemish
Brabant where they live. As a rule they are quite proud their kids are
fluent in Dutch. This sending to Dutch language schools I even see happening
downtown Brussels with Italian, Armenian, … immigration families, often
having some small business, and judging it is better for their kids to be
sent to Dutch language schools. I guess quite some people in the Brussels
still think the Dutch language system is better in forming bilingual people
than the French language education net is.

It is my opinion that the votes political defenders of French in the suburbs
of Brussels get, come to a large extent, not from people who resist speaking
Dutch, but from people refusing to loose the freedom of choosing their
language in private life. Over-killing in imposing Dutch hurts sentiments of
personal freedom and may have adverse effects.

C – Immigrants

I’m personally more worried with the integration of immigrants in the
Brussels area.

Since they have quite some difficulties in finding decent jobs, they are
drained to low salary jobs as e.g. in distribution and logistics, often with
part-time contracts for reinforcing material handling crews at peak moments.
So one finds them e.g. in airport turnaround handling, e.g. stowing (often
overweight) luggage of passengers etc.

These kids (security screened for airport access) are often third generation
immigrants, born in Belgium and eventually have Belgian citizenship. What I
didn’t see before, but what’s rising rapidly, is their desire to affirm
their identity. Arabic language newspapers have been becoming quite popular
in the refreshment areas. The internal communication language in the groups
is becoming openly Arabic (or Berber language?)

I don’t know whether this is just a reaction to international events, or a
development into focused groups, with persistence of the language of their
grand parents.

Regards,

Roger

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul  1 23:34:03 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 16:34:03 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.01 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUL.2004.163403.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources


Dear Lowlanders,

During the past year or so I have been watching, with much gratification,
Scots reference books appearing on local bookstore shelves (here in
Seattle).  I was all the more "excited" (to use the word in the Americans
sense) to find a book *about* Scots in our University Bookstore this week!
Below please find a brief review, and please bear in mind that it is that of
a semi-informed, interested "outsider" who cannot vouch for the veracity of
all the information presented in the book.

Bibliographical Information:

     _The Edinburgh Companion to Scots_ edited by John Corbett,
     J. Derrick McClure and Jane Stuart-Smith, Edinburgh, Scotland:
     Edinburgh University Press (http://www.eup.ed.ac.uk), 2003,
     Paperback ISBN 0 7486 1596 2, Library of Congress Control
     Number: 2003501132; US $ 25.00, UK £ 16.99, EUR 27.90

Jacket description:

"A comprehensive introduction to the study of older and present-day Scots
language. The aim of the volume is to explain and illustrate methods of
research into Scots and Scottish English. Topics include the grammar,
vocabulary and pronunciation of contemporary speech in Scotland, and the
investigation of Older Scots written texts. There is further coverage of
issues such as modern literary Scots, language planning, placenames and
personal names, and the development of Scots overseas. Each chapter gives a
brief overview of the topic, and provides case studies to illustrate avenues
of exploration for those beginning to develop research techniques. The book
is designed as an accessible introduction to key issues and methods of
investigation for undergraduate students interested in the way language has
developed in Scotland.
     The editors, John Corbett, J. Derrick McClure and Jane Stuart-Smith,
lecture at the Universities of Glasgow and Aberdeen. They have all published
on the history, development and current status of Scots and Scottish
English."

Review:

Even a relatively cursory glance through this volume leads me to the
conclusion that it offers very useful background information to anyone
interested in Scots, from non-Scottish persons with a casual interest to
Scots speakers and academic researchers, including also those who focus on
the English language and need to acquaint themselves with delineations and
mutual influences between Scots, Scottish English and other varieties of
English.

The styles and language in which the information is presented on the whole
make it easily accessible even to the non-academic.

This is a collection of chapters about different aspects of Scots, written
by several authors, each chapter coming with its own list of recommended
reading:

* A brief history of Scots (John Corbett, J. Derrick McClure and Jane
Stuart-Smith)
As the title promises, the editors present the history of the language in a
concise fashion, and it sets the stage and tone for the following chapters.

* Scottish place-names (Margaret Scott)
In this chapter, Scots place-names are etymologized and categorized by
linguistic provenance.

* Scottish surnames (Carole Hough)
Surnames are presented by etymological categories: location, relationship,
occupation and nicknames.  Furthermore, there is a useful table of name
distribution.

* Studying Scots vocabulary (Caroline Macafee)
The Scots lexicon is analyzed, and issues of relations and overlaps with
Scottish English are discussed.  This includes useful sections on lexical
erosion and innovation.  Furthermore, the author presents lexical issues
from a variety of research field angles.

* Syntax and discourse in modern Scots (Jim Miller)
Syntactic features of Scots, their variety, levels and shifts are presented
and in part juxtaposed with English.

* The phonology of modern urban Scots (Jane Stuart-Smith)
Forms of and shifts in urban Scots phonology are explained on the basis of
what appears to be very thorough research, frequently presented in
juxtaposition with Scottish and British Standard English.

* The phonology of older Scots (Caroline Macafee : incorporating material by
the late A. J. Aitken)
This is an extremely useful article not only for the phonology specialist
but also for anyone interested in historical phonology generally, as well as
for anyone interested in pre-contemporary Scots literature.  Sound shifts
are clearly explained and presented.  A few samples of Old and Middle Scots
literature are presented in phonetic reconstruction.

* Corpus-based study of older Scots grammar and lexis (Anneli Meurman-Solin)
This chapter shows us how the method of corpus linguistics can help us to
reconstruct pre-contemporary Scots grammar and lexis.  Included is the issue
of work with electronic text corpora.

* The language of older Scots poetry (Jeremy J. Smith)
This is a fairly thorough introduction to various aspects of
pre-contemporary Scots poetic language modes: patterns of sound and grammar.

* The language of modern Scots poetry (J. Derrick McClure)
This chapter offers an overview of the development of Scots poetry, focusing
on its revival and then goes on to deal with more recent trends, including
experimental use of language.  It also deals with boundary issues between
Scots and English.

* The Scots language abroad (Michael Montgomery)
This chapter deals with Scots language use outside Scotland, dwelling much
on Northern Ireland, and then going on to mention evidence of Scots language
use in the earlier periods of European settlement in the United States.  It
also briefly deals with Scots in Canada and Australasia.  Regrettably,
explanations of the fate of Scots in other former British colonies and in
Scottish settlements in places like Prussia and Patagonia are not given.

* Language planning and modern Scots (John Corbett)
This chapter offers much food for thought, not only to those interested in
Scots.  It is particularly relevant to comparative situations in which
minority languages are closely related to the respective power languages.
It deals with reversing language shift, with the planning of status, corpus
and education/acquisition, and it also introduces avenues for research.

The book comes with a long reference list, not including online works (such
as those of some of our members), however.

I feel that this book ought to be recommended as background reading to
anyone who deals with the Scots language.  Furthermore, to various degrees
it is of relevance to anyone who deals with minority language issues,
especially with cases in which there is or is perceived to be no clear
dividing line between a minority language and the power language that
overshadows it (in our area of interest for instance the case of Lowlands
Saxon ["Low German"] under both Dutch and German dominance in the Eastern
Netherlands and Northern Germany).

Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
Founder & Administrator, Lowlands-L
lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
http://www.lowlands-l.net

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul  2 14:26:16 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 07:26:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUL.2004.072616.0700.>

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Language use

Beste liëglanners,

I've been living for decades on the outskirts of Brussels now (and
working in Brussels) and I fully subscribe to Roger's point of view
regarding the language situation in Brussels. I couldn't have described
it better myself.

Flemish language activists demand extreme respect for their language
(for example, they would like to enforce anybody moving to Flanders to
speak Flemish within a certain amount of time)...however...if they
themselves are moving to Lapland, Albania, Kamchatka or Madagascar for
that matter, very few of them will master the local language within that
same short amount of time. Sure, they will learn any language that is
considered more "powerful" than their own native Flemish, but not so
much if that language is held in low esteem. Clearly a case of double
standards.

Point is, how on earth can any language activist hope to get respect
from any "power-language" speaker (French, English, Chinese, Spanish...)
if he doesn't pay tribute himself to all the other (even) lesser known
languages?

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.01 (06) [E]

This is the Flemish problem. The up-side-down chauvinism.
There are several bilingual Walloon towns and villages, where Flemish
minorities
have theoretical rights to claim their administration in their language.
They are bullied to an extreme extend. How dare they ask for language rights
in a
French spoken area?
So, I have no respect for French speaking people who claim their right for
freedom if they do not have the intention whatsoever to learn the local
language.

Put me in Saoudi-Arabia and I will speak Arabic in a short while.
Frenchspeaking people in Brussel live on an island surrounded by
Dutch/Flemish
speaking area.
They are surrounded by an area where a language is spoken, which could as
well be
Swahili.
I live in Europe and I speak 7 languages. So I can adapt everywhere in
Europe.
The French speaking people in Brussels who highhartedly refuse to learn
Dutch do
not have my respect at all.
This claim for freedom of language makes me laugh bitterly.

denis dujardin
flanders

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul  2 14:29:32 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 07:29:32 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.07.02 (02) [E/F]
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUL.2004.072932.0700.>

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From: stellahenno <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.07.01 (05) [E]

Fan Ron:

Examples of cognates:
1=English 2=Dutch 3=L.Saxon  4=W.Frisian  5=Limbg. 6=Luxb. 7=Germ.
1 open  2 open  3 apen  4 --  5 aope  6 offen  7 offen

4 moat wêze: iepen [i. at pen], mei fallend twjilûd.

1 let  2 laten  3 laten  4 (fer)litte  5 loate  6 loossen  5 lassen

4: allinnich mar "litte", net "ferlitte" (ien ferlitte = to leave someone)

"foet" wurdt útsprutsen as [fu. at t] (dus wer sa'n twjlûd).

1 heart  2 hert  3 hart  4 hart  5 herte  6 Häerz /herts/  7 Herz /herts/

4 moat wêze "hert" of "herte" (it lêste is ferâlderjend), [hEt] of [hEt@]

Mei freonlike groetenis

Henno Brandsma

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul  2 14:59:58 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 07:59:58 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUL.2004.075958.0700.>

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From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (01) [E]

Let me put things clear. I am not a extreme language activist.
As I pointed out, I AM interested in learning other languages. I speak
and write French in an upmost degree. And I LOVE to speak it also.
I can not understand that some Flemish people tolerate, the lazyness (or
highharted mentality) of french-spoken people into the Flemish speaking
area.
I am sorry Luc, but your argument works against you.
I underlined that I speak 7 languages. French speaking people in Belgium
tend to speak only ONE, whereas most flemish ar bi-lingual.
So why the remark, that people moving abroad wouldn't be able to cope
with a local language, whereas the Brussels residents do not even know
or refuse to learn a language which surrounds them.
This has nothing to do with extremism, but with courtoisie or respect.
I remain convinced by the fact that people living in a city where the
outskirts speak another language ( -they are surrounded-), that the
least you can do, is to learn that language.
The other way up in towns like Mouscron shows how that works. How people
even get discriminated by asking their simple language rights.
Our Kings, Queens and princesses do not even speak the language of the
majority properly, whereas princess Maxima, being Argentinian,  in
Holland was able to do it in a short while.
So!??

denis dujardin

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul  2 18:48:00 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:48:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (04) [E]
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From: Troy Sagrillo <meshwesh at bigfoot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (01) [E]

Hello all,

I would like to comment on some of the issues regarding Flemish activism,
etc. in Belgium from the perspective of an immigrant. First of all, I do not
live in Brussel or the region (and avoid it as much as possible), so my
views may or may not apply there. Also, I am an American who is here due to
marriage and not because of NATO, work for a multinational, etc. (those
types of expats tend to just learn a minimum of French and be done with it
since they will leave again eventually and are mainly in and around
Brussel).

As soon as I moved here, I enrolled in Dutch courses offered for free with
the Onthaalbureau of the city of Leuven. In addition to the gratis language
courses, I also attended a weekly course over life in Belgium, social
services, Flemish society, etc. However, before being allowed to attend, I
had to sign a contract agreeing to come at least 75% of the time and take
the final examination. I do not know what would have happened if I had not
done so.

This language course was 4 days per week, for 4 hours per day and lasted
about 3 1/2 months. After successfully passing it, the Onthaalbureau
facilitated my moving to an intermediate course elsewhere. These courses are
also free, but do require payment for the course materials. Other students
chose to go into more technical Dutch for a particular job sector, or to
take job training courses.

In addition to myself, there was another Yank, a Canadian, a number of
Eastern Europeans, Arabs (mainly North African and Iraqi), Turks, and Nepali
(Leuven has a very large Nepali population for some reason), raging in age
from about 18 to late 60s.

Similar programmes are available in Onthaalbureaus in major cities around
Flanders and are, from what I understand, being strongly promoted. The aim
is of course the acquisition of language skills, but also an understanding
of Flemish and Belgian society with the goal of integration. Job assistance
is also provided. They will even pay for babysitting so mothers can come,
give free bus passes to those without cars or bikes, and will teach people
to read if they can't. (Well, "free" at taxpayer expense.) Most of the
students were very grateful for all this, though of course there were some
who didn't see the point as they they knew French and/or English already.
They were there for a job requirement more than anything.

Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be> wrote:

> Flemish language activists demand extreme respect for their language
> (for example, they would like to enforce anybody moving to Flanders to
> speak Flemish within a certain amount of time)...however...if they
> themselves are moving to Lapland, Albania, Kamchatka or Madagascar for
> that matter, very few of them will master the local language within that
> same short amount of time.

I have to disagree. People with a "minority" native language moving to
another area with a language they don't know tend to learn at least a basic
level as quickly as possible because they have to. Those with a "majority"
language just assume everyone else will accommodate them (and they will be
accommodated in most instances too). I made the decision to learn Dutch as
soon as possible because I want to work and participate in Flemish society.
I would find it exceptionally rude to not do so. I wouldn't expect any less
of an immigrant to the USA with regard to English.

In my opinion, I think it boils down to the acceptance or not of the native
peoples as to how much they are willing to accommodate. In past years in the
USA, learning English was a requirement (a legal one I believe). Now that is
considered by various activist groups be racist and consequently there are
large numbers of immigrants (legal and illegal) who do not speak English and
have no intention of doing so. The legal requirement certainly is no longer
there. American society is now then forced to become bilingual or to
unfortunately marginalise the the immigrants.

denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be> wrote:

> There are several bilingual Walloon towns and villages, where Flemish
> minorities have theoretical rights to claim their administration in their
> language. They are bullied to an extreme extend. How dare they ask for
> language rights in a French spoken area?

On a related note, Brussel is officially bilingual. However, it has been my
experience that even officials of the federal government refused to speak
Dutch (and they certainly must have known it to be hired). In my particular
case, I had to have some paper work stamped by the Ministry of the Interior
before I was allowed to marry in Belgium. The clerk who was "assisting" me
and my fiancée (who is Flemish) would not speak Dutch *at all*. Now if I had
been by myself I really would have been stuck since I don't know French.
Ironically I could have used English (not an official language), but not
Dutch. My wife just laughs about it and says "its just Brussel; ignore it"
but I found it incredibly disrespectful. It is one thing for a storekeeper
not to use Dutch, but not a government official conducting official
business.

All the best,

Troy

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language use

Troy, Lowlanders,

Here in my general work area there is a Belgian from Brussels.  He is of
Flemish background, and his first language is Flemish.  His wife is from
Antwerp and speaks Flemish and Belgian Standard Dutch, as he does.  Both of
them know French as a second language, besides English.

While he and his wife humor me when I want to converse with them in Dutch or
ask for help with Dutch, he has revealed to me several time that he firmly
believes that Dutch, including Flemish, Brabantish, etc., is a waste of
time, not only for foreigners to learn but in fact for Belgians to bother
with, and he has revealed his disdain for things Dutch and for the
Netherlands on many occasions, usually in a supposedly jocular fashion.

I can hear that he and his wife privately converse in Dutch/Flemish,
sometimes lapsing into English.  They do not speak Dutch to their three
children.  When I asked him why, he said that it was a waste of their time
and brain power.  Their children speak English as a first language.  Their
oldest daughter once expressed a desire to learn Dutch, because they often
visit Belgium, and their grandparents visit here, and she "just likes it."
He tried to talk her out of it, telling her that she would be better off
learning French and/or German.  (However, during a stay with her
grandparents she did manage to become moderately conversant in Dutch.)

By the way, as should be expected given what I have explained above, he
seems to regard my engagement regarding my ancestral Lowlands Saxon (Low
German) simply ludicrous.  His wife, on the other hand, said she finds it
"neat" that she and I can converse in our respective languages and
understand each other pretty well.  I don't really think this is
patronizing, because she seems to enjoy it and she is a generally
accommodating person (perhaps too accommodating as far as the education of
their children is concerned, if you ask me).

I do not know how representative this guy is for Flemish-background
residents of Brussels.  I can simply not understand how anyone can view his
own heritage with so much disdain.  (I have not even come across such an
extreme attitude of what almost seems like self-loathing among Israelis that
were born and raised in Germany.)  If this is not uncommon, the fate of
Flemish seems grim indeed, at least in Brussels, if disdain for and
disregard of it is not confined to French-speaking Belgians but has spilled
over to Flemish-speaking ones as well.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul  2 20:48:22 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:48:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUL.2004.134822.0700.>

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From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (04) [E]

So here we go again......
I wouldn't say that this desdain is typical Flemish, but some people have
this strange sort of attitude towards their own language.
I am not voting extreme-right, I am even strongly opposed to it, because
they manipulate the Flemish topic for their fascistoid aims,
but when you dare to express yourself, having a specific preference for your
language, you are treated suspiciously, in a way of being
extreme-right-nationalist. There are of course historical reasons that can
lead to this sort of connotation.
But when you are raised in a language, your thinking inherits a systematic
which influences your discourse.
You could call it part of your identity. This has nothing to do with ethnic
identity, which leads to awfull racism.
I call myself - quoting Geert Van Istendael, one of my favourite (even
left-winged) writers - a language-nationalist.
I am not ashamed to defend my language, which I consider as valuable an
equal to all other languages in the world.
The more languages, the more the difference and specificity in ways of
thinking.
This can only make the worl richer, enabling a confrontation of different
viewpoints.

But in Flanders there has allways been a strange thing going on.
Whe people go on Holliday to France for example and they see loads of French
banners, they do not bother
about the social or political background of this phenomenon. Yhe same
happens when you go to Scandinavia, where you see lots of Danish, Swedish
and Norwegian banners ornamenting houses and gardens.

When one dares to put a Flemish flag on their house, they are quite quickly
called nationalist (-extremist?-).
Flemish tend to dislike their identity, but there is ALLWAYS identity. You
cannot escape it.
The only way to express identity is language.
When you see European football teams, with different people of different
ethnic background, they at least will speak the language of the team they
are playing for.
I think this is a great thing, and it can wipe out that awfull ethnic
racism.

Therefore I only can congratulate Troy for his endeavour to learn the local
language.
This cannot be said for all those French spoken people who go and live there
and only want to speak one language.
Their own.

denis dujardin

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Language use

Beste Denis,

>I underlined that I speak 7 languages. French speaking people in
Belgium
>tend to speak only ONE, whereas most flemish ar bi-lingual.

I think you read my message too quickly.

I wasn't stating that Flemish expats don't try to learn another language
when living abroad, but merely that they will discriminate between
languages more "powerful" than Flemish (that they will indeed often try
to learn) and languages that in their opinion are less important than
Flemish (e.g. Lappish, Albanian, Yukaghir or Malagasy) that they would
rather not try to learn within one or two years time. When moving to
Flanders, native French speakers (unfortunately) regard Flemish in just
the same way as native Flemish speakers view Lappish, Albanian, Yukaghir
and Malagasy (when moving to Lapland, Albania, Yakutia or Madagascar).
Another example, how many Bulgarians will study Hawaiian if they decide
to move to Hawaii? I'm quite sure that most would rather opt for
English, knowing that they will get by on English.

Among the 7 languages that you speak Denis, is there any language that
has less speakers than Flemish has? See my point? I wasn't referring to
the number of languages that Flemish people can speak but rather to the
status of the languages they choose to speak.

I'm sure there's a psychological explanation for this.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (04) [E]

Ron wrote:

> I can hear that he and his wife privately converse in Dutch/Flemish,
> sometimes lapsing into English.  They do not speak Dutch to their three
> children.  When I asked him why, he said that it was a waste of their time
> and brain power.  Their children speak English as a first language.  Their
> oldest daughter once expressed a desire to learn Dutch, because they often
> visit Belgium, and their grandparents visit here, and she "just likes it."
> He tried to talk her out of it, telling her that she would be better off
> learning French and/or German.  (However, during a stay with her
> grandparents she did manage to become moderately conversant in Dutch.)

Now this is completely beyond me. How did those parents come by such an
"American" attitude (forgive me for using this stereotype, but that seems to
be such a widespread concept in the States - as in "taking Spanish instead
of German" in high school). Don't they know that the more languages their
children learn to speak fluently at a young age, the easier they will learn
even more when they're older? My children learned both German and Durch from
birth, and when we moved to the States, it took them about six weeks to
manage a fluent conversation in English (they were 7 and 5 then, the
youngest was born over there) - because they were used to "thinking" either
German or Dutch, and so they never tried to translate word for word, but
simply started "thinking" English. Sadly, I have met many, many people in
the USA whose parents were immigrants and never taught them their own native
languages. Except for Hispanic families, I recall only ONE case where the
other language was kept alive (I was thrilled to meet small children in
Oregon who spoke fluent Schwyzerdüütsch (Swiss German)!

Don't these parents know that letting a child grow up with a second language
(at least) means the gift of a whole new universe? Also, I find it very rude
to bring up a child who is unable to speak to its own grandparents - that
must be a heartbreaking experience for both sides! Good thing that little
girl semms to have more sense than both her parents.

Frankly, I wonder how much of this common attitude is a "power" issue - the
parents have a convenient way to speak to each other in front of the
children without being understood (or so they hope), AND they are making
sure that the children and grandparents can only have a relationship through
the controlling parents' interpretation.

Better stop before I'm getting all worked up... to me, depriving a child of
learning an alternative language, especially one that is spoken within the
family, is no less than a form of child abuse/neglect, even if there may be
well-meant motives lurking somewhere.

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language use

Gabriele:

> Now this is completely beyond me. How did those parents come by such an
> "American" attitude (forgive me for using this stereotype, but that seems
to
> be such a widespread concept in the States - as in "taking Spanish instead
> of German" in high school).

Again I hate to have to be the one who bursts your Gringo-grumble bubble,
Gabriele.

This person I am talking about, a man in his late 30s, is about as
"American" as a Tuareg, a Herero or a Samoyed.  After about 16 years of
residence in this country he has made hardly any attempt at cultural
adaptation, or at least accommodation, and frequently bewilders folks with
his seemingly excentric manners.  Besides -- I would say _�  l'européenne_ if
I were nasty and stereotyping -- he likes to rant to me, a fellow-European,
about the ills and evils of America and Americans, even though on several
occasions I have made it clear to him and to other fellow-Europeans around
here that I am not at all receptive to the bashing of Americans or of any
other ...ans and ...ers for that matter.  Furthermore, he does not plan to
remain in this country, often talks about returning to Europe, either to
Belgium or to Germany, excluding both France and the Netherlands as
unpalatable choices ...

> Sadly, I have met many, many people in
> the USA whose parents were immigrants and never taught them their own
native
> languages. Except for Hispanic families, I recall only ONE case where the
> other language was kept alive (I was thrilled to meet small children in
> Oregon who spoke fluent Schwyzerdüütsch (Swiss German)!

Again I appeal to you not to generalize on the basis of your experience in a
particular place in Oregon.  I know many American- and Canadian-born people
who are proficient in the languages of their immigrant parents, even
grandparents.  Perhaps this is somewhat more frequent in larger cities with
a diverse, liberal and tolerant base, especially here on the Pacific Coast,
where Asian and African languages tend to be handed down and this may
inspire other immigrants to do likewise; plus, there is a strong, proud
North European base in our area that keeps its cultural and linguistic
traditions as Americans.  I use Yiddish with second-and third-generation
American-born people, and only one of them could be loosely referred to as
"traditional" and "religious."  So, again, beware of generalizations!

Furthermore, it is a sad fact that many parents in Germany deliberately did
not teach their children their own native Lowlands Saxon (Low German),
Frisian or Sorbian, even *discouraging* them from learning and using those
languages.  This was not only so in my childhood years but I have heard of
similar situations *now*, where parents consider those languages, their
*own* languages, a waste of time, even detrimental to the development and
socio-economic opportunities of their offspring.  I remember Greenlandic
parents protesting when in the 1960s the government of Kalallit Nunaat
wanted to increase the use of Kalallisut (Greenlandic) and reduce Danish use
in school curricula.  They had come to view their own language as inferior,
at least as stumbling blocks.  I hear similar stories about former Soviet
republics where non-Russian parents pass on to their children Russian rather
than their native languages.  So, let's not point at specific people.  Let's
just accept that this is a phenomenon that can be encountered anywhere in
the world.

You will find linguistic chauvinism or even "linguistic suspicion" anywhere
in the world.  On my travels in many countries I have come across people
scolding immigrants and even visitors for speaking foreign or non-local
languages in their presence.

As on one of my Germany visits the middle-aged icecream vendor on the beach
promenade in Travemünde barked at me when I read aloud from her list of
flavors "Maple Walnut," _So weät hia abä nich geßprochn!_ (_So wird hier
aber nicht gesprochen_ 'You don't talk like that around here!'  I was
supposed to have Germanized it as "Mahple Vallnutt," I suppose ...)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul  2 21:29:14 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 14:29:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.02 (07) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUL.2004.142914.0700.>

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From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.01 (03) [E/Gaelic]
R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> It might be helpful to assumedly many of our members if you or someone
else
> (perhaps our open-source champion Kenneth) briefly explained what
> "open-source software" is, also what its potentials are.

I'm catching up on some email here, so I'm not sure whether or not this
has been explained yet. Ignore this message if it has.

For the true definition of open source one can have a look at
http://www.opensource.org

In short: Open source software is software of which the source is
available to anyone (almost always for free, but that's not a
requirement). Anyone may make modifications and/or redistribute the
software (without fees having to be payed to the author(s)).

So where can this help us? We as native speakers could obtain the source
of some piece of software we think is useful and translate it into our
native language, and redistribute it. Without cost. One could translate
the popular alternative web suite Mozilla for example, or Evolution, an
emailclient similar to Outlook (try Evolution and/or Mozilla sometime,
good chance you'll like it). And there's lots more useful software like
that which could be translated.

Ron, perhaps you remember from a long time ago (maybe 2, 3 years
already) how I asked about creating a common form of written Saxon,
which I intended to use to translate Mozilla.

On a side note: You seem to have changed your spelling system. Have you,
and if so, how exactly?

regards,
Henry Pijffers, native Saxon and Dutch speaker (in that order)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Leyve Henry,

Wees' veel maal bedankt vör Dyn bydrag (baven)!

> On a side note: You seem to have changed your spelling system.
> Have you, and if so, how exactly?

Ha, yeah, you missed out on the development!  (That's what you get for
leaving us!)  It's the "Algemeyne Neddersassische Schryvwys’" (ANS).  I've
married the former (Lowlands) system with one that is inspired by older
(Hanseatic) devices.  Myn Deenschen makker Kenneth Rohde Christiansen (an
Open Source champion!) and I have been working on presenting an outline, but
life keeps on interfering with and postponing such more important pursuits
...  ;-)  As far as I am concerned, you would be more than welcome to come
on board and help, Henry, myn vründ un mit-stryder.

For a sample, have a look under "ANS" (and contribute a Twente dialect
version if you feel so inclined):
http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/low-saxon/ls-story.html

(Translations into other languages varieties -- Lowlands or not -- would
also be welcomed with open arms.)

It's great to have you back, Henry!  :-)

Hold Dy vuchtig!
Vründliche Gröytens,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul  2 22:27:41 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:27:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (08) [E]
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From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (06) [E]

R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Don't these parents know that letting a child grow up with a second
language
> (at least) means the gift of a whole new universe? Also, I find it very
rude
> to bring up a child who is unable to speak to its own grandparents - that
> must be a heartbreaking experience for both sides! Good thing that little
> girl semms to have more sense than both her parents.
>
I cannot agree more. I'm planning on moving to Germany (as soon as
possible), and I only thought about sending my kids (yes, I have 2 now)
to a Dutch school for no longer than 2 seconds. Both are under the age
of 6 (one's 5.5 years old, the other's only 3 months old), so I'll send
them to a German school, they'll pick up the language fairly quickly
without much problem. Furthermore, I will teach the youngest Saxon (I'm
not the real father of the 1st, so whether she picks it up or not is her
choice), so she can talk to her family (who all speak Saxon, all the
time). How sad it would be if she could only speak Dutch and/or German.
My girlfriend only speaks Dutch, and she has trouble following
conversations between family members. Seeing that I'm moving to the area
of lower Niedersachsen or upper Westfalen, probably a small village in
the Grafschaft Bentheim, Niedersachen, they'll get into contact with at
least 2 varieties of Saxon. The eldest likes languages (she's very
bright and she's learning English), so I think both will pick it up, so
both will speak Saxon, Dutch, German, and most probably English. I think
these kids will have several advantages over others.

> Frankly, I wonder how much of this common attitude is a "power" issue -
the
> parents have a convenient way to speak to each other in front of the
> children without being understood (or so they hope)
 >
Children pick up languages *very* easily. Sometimes I and my girlfriend
speak English to eachother, when we don't want the eldest to know about
something, but it won't be long before she'll start understanding us in
English, so that won't fly.

regards,
Henry

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul  2 22:58:05 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:58:05 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2004.07.02 (09) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUL.2004.155805.0700.>

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From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: Orthography [E/LS]

R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> wrote:
 >
>>On a side note: You seem to have changed your spelling system.
>>Have you, and if so, how exactly?
>
> Ha, yeah, you missed out on the development!  (That's what you get for
> leaving us!)  It's the "Algemeyne Neddersassische Schryvwys’" (ANS).  I've
> married the former (Lowlands) system with one that is inspired by older
> (Hanseatic) devices.
 >
I like it! It looks almost exactly like the orthography I devised
myself. Probably because I used the same stuff as basis. Only difference
I see so far (just had a glance at your Tuunkrüper story) is the u/uu
sounds (as in Dutch). I use u for German u (as in "Flur"), ue for Dutch
short u (as in "put"), and uy for Dutch long u (as in "vuur"), so I
write "flure", "puette", and "duyre" (meaning door, because
"vuur"/"fire" would be "vöyr").

I'm going to look into your ANS, and see if I can adopt it, i.e. whether
it fits my Saxon dialect. I think I will, because it seems like it's 90%
the same. Or perhaps with a few modifications, I don't know... Will see.

> Myn Deenschen makker Kenneth Rohde Christiansen (an
> Open Source champion!) and I have been working on presenting an outline,
but
> life keeps on interfering with and postponing such more important pursuits
> ...  ;-)  As far as I am concerned, you would be more than welcome to come
> on board and help, Henry, myn vründ un mit-stryder.
>
Wat kan ik doon? Muet ik wat schryven? Kan ik wat bydreagen? Tyd het ik
wal, daet is geyn probleem.

> (Translations into other languages varieties -- Lowlands or not -- would
> also be welcomed with open arms.)

 > It's great to have you back, Henry!  :-)
 >
It's great to be back!

vreandelike grooten,
Henry Pijffers, native Saxon and Dutch speaker (in that order)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Henry:

> Wat kan ik doon? Muet ik wat schryven? Kan ik wat bydreagen? Tyd het ik
> wal, daet is geyn probleem.

Eyrstmaal kunst 'n vertellen vun "Dey Tuunkrüyper" schryven.  Up dey wys'
warst künnig, wouans dat mit düsse schryvwys' is, of sey vör Dyn dialekt tou
bruken is.

Den gift 't 'n barg annere saken, un daar hett upstünds us Kenneth dat
seggen.  (Dey junge snösel is dey motoor vun dat projekt un dey terrier, dey
my vaken by dey hakken tou byten is ...)  Wy wült dat systeem beschryven, in
Sassisch, Ingelsch, Düytsch un Hollandsch, wen 't gayt.  Wen Du mit-doun
wult, den kryg' ik min vun Kenneth syn druk tou spöyren ...  ;-)

> "duyre" (meaning door, because
> "vuur"/"fire" would be "vöyr").

Nourd-Sassisch vun Düytschland:

döör [dø:3] ~ [dœ:3] 'door'
düyr [dy:3] 'dear', 'expensive'
vüyr [fy:3] 'fire'
lüyd' [ly:.(d)] 'people' (< lüyde)
dröög' [drø:.j] ~ [drœ:.j] 'dry' (< dröge)
kou [ko.U] ~ [kaU] 'cow'
köy [kœ.I] ~ [kO.I] 'cows'
löyg' [lœ:Ij] ~ [lO:Ij] 'lie' (< löyge)
köyr [kœ.I3] ~ [ky.3] 'choice'*
beden ['be:dn] ~ ['bE:dn] 'to pray', 'to request'
beyden ['bE.Idn] 'to offer'
teert [te:3t] ~ [tE:3t] '(he) tars'
deyrt [dE.I3t] ~ [di:3t] 'animal'*
peyrd [pE.I3t] ~ [pi:3t] 'horse'*
peyrd' [pE:I3(d)] ~ [pi:.3(d)] 'horses'* (< peyrde)

* In some dialects, like those of the Lower Elbe region, diphthongs before
/r/ surface as high monophthongs.

Gröytens,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Jul  3 00:21:56 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 17:21:56 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (10) [E]
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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Language use

Beste Troy,

First of all I'd like to congratulate you for having decided to learn
Dutch as soon as possible. I truly wish that more people would be just
as interested in (Lowlands) languages, as you (and most other members
here) are.

>> Flemish language activists demand extreme respect for their language
>> (for example, they would like to enforce anybody moving to Flanders
to
>> speak Flemish within a certain amount of time)...however...if they
>> themselves are moving to Lapland, Albania, Kamchatka or Madagascar
for
>> that matter, very few of them will master the local language within
that
>> same short amount of time.

>I have to disagree. People with a "minority" native language moving to
>another area with a language they don't know tend to learn at least a
basic
>level as quickly as possible because they have to.

That's true if you're talking about people that are only able to speak
one language (their own "minority" native language). But this is almost
never the case with Flemish people because the bulk of them speaks
French and English (and often some German) as well. So in Madagascar for
example, most of them will not learn Malagasy, they will just revert to
French. This does not apply to myself (and many other members on this
board I guess), but then again, we're all language aficionados, aren't
we?

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Jul  3 16:50:51 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 09:50:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.07.03 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.3.JUL.2004.095051.0700.>

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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

> 1 apple  2 appel  3 appel  4 apel  5 appel  6 Apel  7 Apfel /apfel/
Hi Ron,
Just looked at the spelling of the word "apple" in  your list.
I think in English, one speaks of an "appel", and spells it as "apple".
In my Flemish, it is just the opposite;
I say "apple" and spell it "appel". So this happens with a great
variety of words like
(Flemish/Dutch): beutre/Boter , veugle/vogel , regle/regel ,
wizre/wijzer , Risle/Rijsel , kopple/koppel ,
voadre/vader , wezne/wezen ,... (but not in plural forms : veugels,
regels, wizers, koppels, voaders,  wezens...).
Is this a shift that has happened elswhere in the Lowland languages ?
And what is the oldest form here?

Groetjes,
luc vanbrabant
oekene

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Jul  3 17:38:21 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 10:38:21 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.03 (02) [D/E]
Message-ID: <SAT.3.JUL.2004.103821.0700.>

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From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (04) [E]

In message <008b01c46065$19e4e090$1c0d5f80 at dental.washington.edu>,
Lowlands-L <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net> writes
>On a related note, Brussel is officially bilingual. However, it has been my
>experience that even officials of the federal government refused to speak
>Dutch (and they certainly must have known it to be hired). In my particular
>case, I had to have some paper work stamped by the Ministry of the Interior
>before I was allowed to marry in Belgium. The clerk who was "assisting" me
>and my fiancée (who is Flemish) would not speak Dutch *at all*. Now if I
had
>been by myself I really would have been stuck since I don't know French.

I have had just this kind of experience in Brussels.  My spoken and
listening Dutch is awful, but my reading Dutch is quite good now.  My
French I learned in school, and have found adequate for making small
talk with colleagues from Francophone Africa, and central and eastern
Europe, but not used for research... I have no idea what the vocabulary
is for 'issue desk', 'restricted borrowing rights' or 'please ask a
librarian before photocopying this book'.  The librarians were all,
baffled by having to deal with someone who really did need to have it
said to them in Dutch!  But they coped, and invariably, with politeness.
I think they put it down to English eccentricity.

A fair number of Dutch people must visit Brussels - what do they do?  Do
most Dutch people speak French, or do both French Belgian and
Netherlander switch to English as an acceptable compromise?  I have
found it very useful in France to switch to Italian rather than English.

Best wishes to you all,

Pat
(who found typing her password into a French keyboard very hard)
--
Pat Reynolds
pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk
   "It might look a bit messy now,
                    but just you come back in 500 years time"
   (T. Pratchett)

----------

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: "Language use" [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language use
>
> You will find linguistic chauvinism or even "linguistic suspicion"
anywhere
> in the world.  On my travels in many countries I have come across people
> scolding immigrants and even visitors for speaking foreign or non-local
> languages in their presence.

I can add an extra level of incredulity to this. When I'm speaking to
someone in BSL in public I find there's no shortage of English-only speakers
who will interrupt the conversation to complain that they can't understand
what's being said. I suppose the feeling of being excluded from something
can quickly become so painful that a person will start to act quite
irrationally.

BSL, eh? I wonder if I should just start calling it "British" - couldn't be
confused with any other language, could it?  :)

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

----------

From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (03) [E]

> From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
> Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (01) [E]
>
> Let me put things clear. I am not a extreme language activist.
> As I pointed out, I AM interested in learning other languages. I speak
> and write French in an upmost degree. And I LOVE to speak it also.
> I can not understand that some Flemish people tolerate, the lazyness
> (or
> highharted mentality) of french-spoken people into the Flemish speaking
> area.
> I am sorry Luc, but your argument works against you.
> I underlined that I speak 7 languages. French speaking people in
> Belgium
> tend to speak only ONE, whereas most flemish ar bi-lingual.
> So why the remark, that people moving abroad wouldn't be able to cope
> with a local language, whereas the Brussels residents do not even know
> or refuse to learn a language which surrounds them.
> This has nothing to do with extremism, but with courtoisie or respect.
> I remain convinced by the fact that people living in a city where the
> outskirts speak another language ( -they are surrounded-), that the
> least you can do, is to learn that language.
> The other way up in towns like Mouscron shows how that works. How
> people
> even get discriminated by asking their simple language rights.
> Our Kings, Queens and princesses do not even speak the language of the
> majority properly, whereas princess Maxima, being Argentinian,  in
> Holland was able to do it in a short while.
> So!??
>
> denis dujardin
Hi denis,
I fully subscrive your point of view regarding the languages in
Belgium.  Every belgian kid should be imposed  to learn the tree
official languages . The freedom to choose in what language one is
willing  to speak would remain. I would have no problem if the whole of
Belgium would be bi-lingual,  but with our  history i  doubt very much
if the Walloons would co-opperate. For the moment a Flemich inhabitant
just has the choise to switch into French (in most of the cases). We
have had already enough etnocides in our regions. And yes, i am not an
extremist, just a realist, with respect for all the folks that are
willing to live in mutual respect for each other cultures.

Groetjes
luc vanbrabant
oekene

----------

From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (04) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language use
> I do not know how representative this guy is for Flemish-background
> residents of Brussels.  I can simply not understand how anyone can
> view his
> own heritage with so much disdain.  (I have not even come across such
> an
> extreme attitude of what almost seems like self-loathing among
> Israelis that
> were born and raised in Germany.)  If this is not uncommon, the fate of
> Flemish seems grim indeed, at least in Brussels, if disdain for and
> disregard of it is not confined to French-speaking Belgians but has
> spilled
> over to Flemish-speaking ones as well.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron
Beste Ron,

Ik denk dat je alles kan vergelijken met mensen die zich bekeren tot
een andere godsdienst. Alles wat dan van vroeger was, wordt hardnekkig
afgezworen en bestreden. Een protestant bij voorbeeld,  moet niets meer
weten van zijn vroegere katholieke godsdienst, enz... Vlaamse mensen
uit Brussel hebben zich laten verfransen om wat hoger op de sociale
ladder te kunnen staan en willen niet meer herinnerd worden aan de tijd
ervoor!

Groetjes
luc vanbrabant
oekene

----------

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (06) [E]

First of all:
Henry, the piece you quoted was written by me, nor Ron. I'm always willing
to let him take the blame for me, but since you agreed with what was said, I
insist that I was the author! :-))

Ron, I put "American" attitude in quote marks for a reason - I didn't mean
to make a sweeping generalization, but needed some kind of an "anchor
point". Still, I would say that in 95% of second or third generation
immigrant families that I met, the "original" language had disappeared.
often deliberately. Of course this tendency is much stronger among German
families who fled their country during the Third Reich and wanted to quickly
lose a language that wasn't very popular in the world back then, and that
maybe they had come to hate.

Very often, it is also the children who refuse to speak their parents'
language in another country, sometimes for fear of being ostracised and
sometimes because they're embarrassed or don't see the point. I think I
mentioned before that my own youngest daughter, born in the States, spoke
only German until she was three, although she understood English just fine.
Once she entered daycare/kindergarten, she switched to speaking nothing but
English, even though I spoke German to her all the time. We moved back to
Germany when she was five, and she practically didn't speak at all for a few
weeks - until her younger cousin bothered her no end, and she suddenly
opened her mouth and really let him have it - in fluent German, which she
has been speaking again ever since. She is now ten and currently reading the
Lord of the Rings in English, so she hasn't lost that either.

I know several families in the States where the children are embarrassed to
speak anything but English, and several families in Germany with at least
one foreign parent where the children will speak German only, except to
their grandparents, usually. In the village where I grew up, none of the
local children emmed to be interested in learning Saxon from their parents
which was considered "way uncool" and outdated; on the other hand, I don't
recall any parents who spoke it to them (Sollinger Platt is a really strong
flavour where you don't understand a word if you know only High German),
although they spoke it with their own parents all the time.

Coming to think of it: for the motivation of both parents and children to
keep the "other" language alive, it makes a big difference whether the
family is isolated or lives within an entire foreign community within
another country. That would also explain why Hispanics, for example, are
more likely to raise their children bilingually in the States.

Now why a parent wouldn't want his child to learn the language of a country
where it may be living later in life is really beyond me. Maybe your Flemish
friend is one of those people who will never make it back, griping to the
last...

Another thing I will never understand is how many people marry a foreign
partner and never bother to learn their language. Although there is nothing
I cannot express in English, it made a big difference to me when my American
husband became fluent in German and I could say just spontaneously say
anything to him which entered my mind without first having to make sure it
was in English (this is even more important because in our family, we love
to torture each other with bad puns and wordplay).

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language use

Gabriele (above):

> Another thing I will never understand is how many people marry a foreign
> partner and never bother to learn their language.

I agree with regard to cases in which this person lives among people that
speak the partner's language.  Basically, I agree with regard to *all*
cases.  However, where the partner's language is relatively remote it can be
difficult.  I myself am guilty of insufficiently helping my wife improve her
high school German.  I have never gotten over the discomfort barrier when I
tried to speak German with her.  While in English we are equals, so to
speak, when we try to speak German with each other it feels like she is the
child and I am the parent talking down to her, keeping my language very
simple and being unable to discuss complicated subjects.  Plus, she feels
intimidated for some reason.  (Hey! Why on earth would she?!  ;-) )  While
visiting Germany I have on a couple of occasions inadvertently eavesdropped
and heard her converse fairly well in German with older relatives while
believing I was out of earshot ...  I know that this works better where
people know the language of a spouse who is not very confident and is
grateful that the person they married speaks their language.  I have
observed this particularly among East Asians  married to "Westerners" who
know their languages.

Luc (above):

> Ik denk dat je alles kan vergelijken met mensen die zich bekeren tot
> een andere godsdienst. Alles wat dan van vroeger was, wordt hardnekkig
> afgezworen en bestreden. Een protestant bij voorbeeld,  moet niets meer
> weten van zijn vroegere katholieke godsdienst, enz... Vlaamse mensen
> uit Brussel hebben zich laten verfransen om wat hoger op de sociale
> ladder te kunnen staan en willen niet meer herinnerd worden aan de tijd
> ervoor!

Dat is een heel prima vergelijking!  Bedankt, Luc!

Luc, referring to my description of a Fleming from Brussels who has nothing
but disdain for Flemish, Dutch, etc. (and to a degree for France, by the
way), compares it to a person converting to a different religion and then
going overboard by rejecting everything vaguely associated with his or her
religious past.

I remember another case, a guy from Brussels with a "thoroughly" Flemish
first and last name I met in Taiwan.  Once, in a bit of a jocular mood, I
said something to him in Dutch.  He looked at me as though I had just called
him the worst name you can imagine.  It can't have been *what* I said or the
tone in which I said it, and his wasn't an expression of surprise either,
just of dismay.  He did understand what I said, because he acted on it, but
he answered in English and later told me that he doesn't speak Dutch if he
can help it.  It seemed like an uncomfortable topic to him, and he dropped
it quickly, just had to clear up to me this supposed case of "mistaken
identity," as if to tell me, "Never do that to me again!"  He can't have
been disgruntled for too long, for he kept me on his mailing list, and a few
months after my departure from Taiwan I received from his parents an
invitation to his wedding, *in French and English, without Dutch*, although
the names of all the people mentioned were Flemish ...  (By the way, both
families were aristocrats, going by some of the titles I saw.  I don't know
if that had any bearing on the matter.)  I had had a couple of similar but
less glaring experiences before that.  Since then, and remembering reports
about street battles concerning language in Belgium when I was a child, I
have learned not to touch this Belgian language thing with a ten-foot pole,
also to try not to pass judgment (because I try to cultivate compassion, and
I don't know how I myself would feel and act if I had grown up in Brussels).
I am only discussing this here in the presence of members of this list,
because I assume you all are more broad-minded and more enlightened.

Regards,
Reihard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Jul  4 03:48:32 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 20:48:32 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.03 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.3.JUL.2004.204832.0700.>

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From: Fred van Brederode <f.vanbrederode at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.03 (02) [D/E]

> From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
> Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (04) [E]
>
> I have had just this kind of experience in Brussels.  My spoken and
> listening Dutch is awful, but my reading Dutch is quite good now.  My
> French I learned in school, and have found adequate for making small
> talk with colleagues from Francophone Africa, and central and eastern
> Europe, but not used for research... I have no idea what the vocabulary
> is for 'issue desk', 'restricted borrowing rights' or 'please ask a
> librarian before photocopying this book'.  The librarians were all,
> baffled by having to deal with someone who really did need to have it
> said to them in Dutch!  But they coped, and invariably, with politeness.
> I think they put it down to English eccentricity.
>
> A fair number of Dutch people must visit Brussels - what do they do?  Do
> most Dutch people speak French, or do both French Belgian and
> Netherlander switch to English as an acceptable compromise?  I have
> found it very useful in France to switch to Italian rather than English.

I'm not sure Pat. Dutch people just love to show off. But not very many
Dutch people are able to speak French.

My experience is that using Dutch in Brussels usually works. But then, I am
not there in a dependant situation. I am sure I take advantage of the fact
that I am the consumer in a bar or in a shop.
Maybe reluctantly, but staff always managed to tell me what the price is in
Dutch.

I discussed the language problem with a Flemish friend a while ago. He told
me he was not on to forcing Brusselarians to speak Dutch. He told me the
courtesy was to help each other. My French is not too good, nor is your
Dutch, so how do we meet halfway?
Last summer in France I met a couple from Brussels. While we were doing the
small talk like 'where are you from', they told me they were from Brussels.
So I immediately changed to Dutch 'o maar dan spreekt u ook Nederlands' (I
know it is a teaser).They explained 'wij zijn Franstalig en wij kunnen dat
niet zo goed' Though it was perfectly said, it really seemed like a hard job
for them. So then I remembered the wise words of my Flemish friend to just
help each other. We did.

It was years ago when we were on a business trip to Brussels. After some
hard work we were celebrating the end of the day on the marked place with
some good Belgian beers. When the beers were finished one of our group liked
to show his knowledge of French. He called the waiter: ‘Garçon, le même’.
The waiter came up to us and said in perfect Dutch: 'Uitstekend meneer, maar
in het vervolg moet u wel zeggen 'la même chose''.
What did we learn: stick to Dutch in Brussels, French is harder for us than
Dutch is for them.
Sometimes it is a lot easier to be Dutch than to be Flemish. Flemish people
are expected to speak an excellent French. And yes, when they don’t, I
noticed Belgian (and Dutch) people tend to jump to the modern lingua franca,
English, the harmless solution.

Groeten
Fred van Brederode

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Jul  4 19:45:20 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 12:45:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.04 (01) [E/Breton/Portuguese]
Message-ID: <SUN.4.JUL.2004.124520.0700.>

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From: Carlos Eduardo Abbud <ceabbud at yahoo.com.br>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.01 (03) [E/Gaelic]

Dear Sir,
As bretonnant and intersted in celtic cultures, I agree with you about the
need of emphazising to parents in order to make them see that a languages is
a mankind's heritage and it must be protected.
Maybe to force the Mass Media and Internet sites having editions totally in
dangered languages was a good path.
Sincerally yours
professor doctor Carlos Eduardo Le Fur Abbud

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Language use

Estimado prof. Abbud,

Digemer mad!

Obrigado para seua contribuição, e bem-vindo ao grupo dos Lowlanders
"ativos".

Kenavo! D'ur wech all!

Com saudações amigáveis,

Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
Founder & Administrator, Lowlands-L
lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
http://www.lowlands-l.net

----------

From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.03 (03) [E]


From: Fred van Brederode <f.vanbrederode at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.03 (02) [D/E]


From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (04) [E]

I have had just this kind of experience in Brussels.  My spoken and
listening Dutch is awful, but my reading Dutch is quite good now.  My
French I learned in school, and have found adequate for making small
talk with colleagues from Francophone Africa, and central and eastern
Europe, but not used for research... I have no idea what the vocabulary
is for 'issue desk', 'restricted borrowing rights' or 'please ask a
librarian before photocopying this book'.  The librarians were all,
baffled by having to deal with someone who really did need to have it
said to them in Dutch!  But they coped, and invariably, with politeness.
I think they put it down to English eccentricity.

A fair number of Dutch people must visit Brussels - what do they do?  Do
most Dutch people speak French, or do both French Belgian and
Netherlander switch to English as an acceptable compromise? I have
found it very useful in France to switch to Italian rather than English.


I'm not sure Pat. Dutch people just love to show off. But not very many
Dutch people are able to speak French.
Pat and Fred,

But most Flemish, do speak French, because it is obligatory at school from
the age of 10 years.
French lessons are taken very seriously and important.
It is also obligatory in Wallonia, but it is mainly considered as boring and
unnecessary.
The awareness of Dutch being important in some more upperclass groups in
French spoken Belgium is though growing.


My experience is that using Dutch in Brussels usually works. But then, I am
not there in a dependant situation. I am sure I take advantage of the fact
that I am the consumer in a bar or in a shop.
Maybe reluctantly, but staff always managed to tell me what the price is in
Dutch.
The more expensive a shop is, the more bilingual staff will be. That doesnt
need any explantion of course.


I discussed the language problem with a Flemish friend a while ago. He told
me he was not on to forcing Brusselarians to speak Dutch.
That doesn't make any sense of course. You can't force people to switch
their basic language, but politically, one can organize an
institutionalisation of Dutch being equal in official matters. As it happens
theoretically right now.

He told me the

courtesy was to help each other.
But this courtesy between French spoken Belgians and Flemish generally turns
into one direction. The Dutch speaking person switches.

 My French is not too good, nor is your
Dutch, so how do we meet halfway?
Last summer in France I met a couple from Brussels. While we were doing the
small talk like 'where are you from', they told me they were from Brussels.
So I immediately changed to Dutch 'o maar dan spreekt u ook Nederlands' (I
know it is a teaser).They explained 'wij zijn Franstalig en wij kunnen dat
niet zo goed'
Let me put things clear. Only 14% of Brussels population is Dutch spoken.
Before the war, they were majority. A lot of people converted themselves to
French because of the collaboration of Flemish Nationalists with the Nazis.
A second reason of this conversion, was also the status of French being the
upperclass language (like it allways have been in a way from about the 16th
century onwards).
Flemish or Dutch was an inferior peasant-language, which wouldn't help you
to improve your social position.

 Though it was perfectly said, it really seemed like a hard job
for them. So then I remembered the wise words of my Flemish friend to just
help each other. We did.

It was years ago when we were on a business trip to Brussels. After some
hard work we were celebrating the end of the day on the marked place with
some good Belgian beers. When the beers were finished one of our group liked
to show his knowledge of French. He called the waiter: ‘Garçon, le même’.
The waiter came up to us and said in perfect Dutch: 'Uitstekend meneer, maar
in het vervolg moet u wel zeggen 'la même chose''.
What did we learn: stick to Dutch in Brussels, French is harder for us than
Dutch is for them.
Sometimes it is a lot easier to be Dutch than to be Flemish. Flemish people
are expected to speak an excellent French.
Things are though changing. Because of the big number of Arab (Maroccan)
immigration in Brussels, many French spoken parents send their children to
Dutch spoken schools because they have a much better reputation.
North-African an Turkish immigrants tend to send their children to French
spoken schools.
So those children have much more opportunity to know both languages. The
reason here is mainly not to double language knowledge, but more one of
avoiding a presumed deterioration of school environment.

And yes, when they don’t, I
noticed Belgian (and Dutch) people tend to jump to the modern lingua franca,
English, the harmless solution.
Of course we do not appose against the modern lingua franca (I am using it
right now....). The only problem is - as I repeatedly qouted - the stubborn
and highharted mentality of a group of French spoken immigrants in the
Flemish area who refuse to use a bit of 'courtoisie'. I think it is a
remnant of a language which is losing its power as a former lingua franca in
favour of Eglish.

Denis Dujardin
Flanders

----------

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.03 (02) [D/E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language use
> I do not know how representative this guy is for Flemish-background
residents of Brussels.  I can simply not understand how anyone can view his
own heritage with so much disdain.  (I have not even come across such an
extreme attitude of what almost seems like self-loathing among Israelis that
were born and raised in Germany.)

I cannot judge about individual cases, and visions of Belgians on issues
like this differ. Till the mid of last century, French continued to be
promoted as "the" national language by many. In schools this was often
inposed by different degrees of intimidation. Kids can be mutually cruel and
reinforce this kind of intimidation and even preserve someting of this
attitude, once they are grown up.
When reading political comments in walloon language usenetgroups, defendants
of the walloon language complain of similar intimidations, still strongly
persisting over there.
Prussians have thriven out the use of Dutch as school and church language in
the Kleve area (Niederrhein) in the beginning of the 19th century. They even
forced immigration from the Pfalz to this area (cf. the Pfälzer Dörfer South
of Kleve), breaking the cultural homogeneity.

It is my personal conviction, as regard to Dutch, attitudes are changing.
Since this switch, even when slow, is in our favour, I think it is better to
let it have its natural course, rather tan inverse the intimidation. I
believe one can only win in cultural battles, when one respects everybody's
freedom of choice in private life.
What I see, at meetings of the Chambre Franco-Belge in Lille (France), at
the dinners, generally at the end of the meetings, conversation language is
often switching from French into Dutch. I'm conviced Dutch is not suppressed
any more in business live. I'm also convinced this will work through slowly
through the social behaviour of new generations.
The francisation process in Brussels took several hundreds of years. It is
not realistic to suppose it can be fully reversed in a couple of years.

Further, I'm wundering whether or not these are the real social problems, we
Belgians have to focus on.
In the last two weeks we had a doazen of anti-semitic incidents in the
Antwerp area. One boy was stabbed with a knife in the back, by a group of
other kids, described as Arabic. Stones were thrown at a Jewish bow on a
bike a couple of days later etc. Jewish kids in Antwerp often belong to
Orthodox groups, are easely recognisable, and become easy targets.
We have a strong Arabic population in several towns. Arabic kids are
increasingly frustrated (because of lack of employment, because of
international events, because of ..?). Political parties in the North are
trying to cope with the growth of the "Vlaams Blok", a political party, who
clearly states they want to "encourage" the return of (muslim) foreigners to
their homelands. They got about 25 percent in regional elections.
So we have a quite large marginal third generation immigrants group, that is
rather further and further maginalized.
I'm very much afraid this is growing into a bomb, which will explode some
day.

So I'm less concerned with somme fossiled French-speaking people from
Brussels, who eventually continue to have an anti-Flemish attitude. Downtown
Brussels streets are linguistically predominantly Arabic-Berber by night
anyhow. So I'm much more concerned about the incapacity of our government to
deal with third generation North-African immigrants, than with some fossiled
reportedly anti-Flemish incidents. I personally think the Flemish movement
got almost all it wanted to get. So it's time to look around from time to
time and set priorities.

Regards,
Roger

----------

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.03 (02) [D/E]

Addendum to my comment to:

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language use
> I do not know how representative this guy is for Flemish-background
residents of Brussels.  I can simply not understand how anyone can view his
own heritage with so much disdain.  (I have not even come across such an
extreme attitude of what almost seems like self-loathing among Israelis that
were born and raised in Germany.)

This may be illustrated by the song "De Marollien" by Jef Elbers (dating
from the sixties or early seventies).
I leave it here for a couple of days:
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/marol.wma

It dates from times when it was still difficult to motivate parents to send
their kids to Flemish (Dutch language) schools in Brussels.
It is a little ballad about a boy marrying a girl, who's family opts for the
French culture. Their son is sent to a French language school and is ashamed
about his father being Flemish. When the father becomes aware of this, it is
to late for a reversal.
Since Flemish ballads end with a moral: it is recommended to send one's kids
to a Flemish school.
It is in mixed language: Brabantish from Brussels and French.

Some vocabulary:
ket:     boy (in Brussels)
poepa:     father
maske:     girl
fuur:     fair (kermis)
peire:     father
een peer draaien op zijne smoel:    hit him on his face / on his mouth:

Enjoy.
Regards,
Roger

----------

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.03 (02) [D/E]

One more reflection to:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc." <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
To: <lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET>
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 5:08 PM
Subject: Re: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.03 (02) [D/E]
> It dates from times when it was still difficult to motivate parents to
send
> their kids to Flemish (Dutch language) schools in Brussels.

Case:
A pupil with an extremely stong cockney accent in a London school.
What should the teacher do:

- Encourage him to learn standard English (with the motivation Cokney = bad
and English = good)?

- Encourage him to learn standard English (with the motivation Cokney = good
but our tricly world forces us to adjust our identity, play the game and use
an "English language mask")?

- Encourage him to use Cockney only, for the preservation of this language
variant, and rest in the reduction of his carreer opprtunities?

- Encourage him to become bilingual, Cockney for the friends and the
playground, and English for literature and contacts with snobs?

In the case of the Brussels song by Elbers,  "Brabantish from Brussels" and
"Dutch" are both called "Flemish" in opposition to French.
While the kid is switching from "Brabantish" to "French", the song presents
this as a betrayal of "Dutch".

So we can solve the enigma by stating that Flemish, Brabantish and
Limburgish are all just dialects of Dutch. In this political spirit the
Taaluniie advized negatively about the recognition of Limburgish in Belgium,
even after Limburgish was recognized for the Netherlands.

Regards,
Roger

----------

From: marco [evenhuiscommunicatie] <marco at evenhuiscommunicatie.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.03 (03) [E]

> > A fair number of Dutch people must visit Brussels - what do they do?  Do
> > most Dutch people speak French, or do both French Belgian and
> > Netherlander switch to English as an acceptable compromise?  I have
> > found it very useful in France to switch to Italian rather than English.

Folks,

I think even after all these postings about Brussels, the situation as
decribed on this list is still oversimplified. There are francophones in
Brussels that can't speak Dutch, there are people who have their reasons to
avoid speaking Dutch as much as they can, there are people that are
bilingual who are most willingly to switch to Dutch if necessary, there are
bilinguals that clearly have their preferred language, some people form
Brussels speak Dutch with a strong French accent, some speak French with a
strong Brabatish accent, some mix their French with words from Brabantish
(germanic!) dialect of the city and there are even parts of Brussels where
this old Brabantish dialect is still the preferred language in cafés and at
home.
The most complicated situation I once found myself in in Brussels, was when
I met a guy in a café in the Marollen-district. The bar appeared to have a
bilingual name, but in fact the two names where both mixed Dutch/Flemish and
French: 'Bij den Binche' was the "Dutch" version of the name, 'Chez Binchke'
was the "French" version (if I remember correctly). The guy I spoke with,
was speaking the old Brabantish dialect of Brussels with his friends, adding
French words and curses every now and then. I said something to him in
Dutch, but I think he felt uncomfortable in Standard Dutch (probably only
having learned French in school; his dialect only being an unwritten
language with a very low prestige, differing enormously from the Standard
Dutch he heard on tv or radio). So he appoligized for switching to French
and then started to speak French with a very, very strong Brabantish accent
and adding loads of Dutch/Brabantish words. I'm sure he was convinced that
he could get away with this unique mixed language in Paris just as well as
in his own pub. But I'm sure only people that speak French ánd Dutch and
have a little knowledge of Brabantish could follow him.
French was close to him, but it wasn't his real mother tongue. Dutch was
further away from him, but he could well understand it, although he didn't
dare to speak it - afraid as he was to make mistakes. His real mother tongue
was the germanic Brabantish dialect of his city, but that dialect is rapidly
dying out and I bet that over 80% of the francophone people in Brussels
don't even know about the existence of it. (Strange enough, with the actual
dialect gradually disappearing, more and more roadsigns in the
Marollen-district are becoming trilingual French, Dutch and the Brabantish
Brussels dialect: Rue Haute - Hoogstraat - Huëgstroet).
Then I realized that I probably will never fully understand Brussels. I said
that to the man I met in the café and he just replied 'Nobody understands
Brussels. That's why we're here, drinking beer. Allez santé, alleman!'

regards,

Marco

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Jul  4 19:49:30 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 12:49:30 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.07.04 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.4.JUL.2004.124930.0700.>

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From: GoodbyColumbus at aol.com <GoodbyColumbus at aol.com>
Subject: Appalachian English (Ap)

Hey y'all,

I like to consider myself an amateur spare-time linguist of sorts, and have
been lurking around this list for about a year now, without ever posting
anything. So, I guess there's a first time for everything.

I'd just like to ask someone, anyone, to point me in a general direction
where I can learn more about the Appalachian dialect of English. And just a
few (hopefully not too idiotic) questions:
What constitutes the "region" where this dialect is spoken? In what I've
read as being characteristic of the Appalachian English dialect, I've found
that a vast majority of vocabulary, grammar, usages, etc. are found as far
west as the Highland Rim in west middle Tennessee, where I grew up and from
where I write this e-mail. Is the infamous "country accent" and "country
talk" which I grew with up a derivative of the mountains? Maybe I just had
false impressions in thinking that it was more of a 'southern' accent. Am I
wrong?

Was there any influence from other lowlands tongues (i.e. Low Saxon, Dutch),
apart Scots by way of Ulster? I've even heard that "clabber" finds its roots
in a Gaelic word,  clabair, having something to do, I think, with the word
for mud.

I'm sort of tone-deaf, so, I ask, phonetically, what would differentiate a
native of southern Mississippi, a native of piedmont Virginia and a native
of central West Virginia?

I guess that's all for now, y'all. I hope I get some answers and that all
this will start up a new debate, and that there's other fellow Lowlanders
out there interested in this.

any help or dialogue would be much obliged,
Brad E. Conatser
goodbycolumbus at aol.com

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Language varieties

Hey, Brad!

Welcome among the vocal Lowlanders!  Nice to see two lurkers come forth out
of the shadows in one day.

Happy Fourth of July to you and to all Lowlanders in and from the United
States!

Regards,

Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
Founder & Administrator, Lowlands-L
lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
http://www.lowlands-l.net

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Jul  4 20:00:39 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 13:00:39 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.07.04 (03) [A/E]
Message-ID: <SUN.4.JUL.2004.130039.0700.>

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From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.07.03 (01) [E]

luc vanbrabant wrote:
 >
> I think in English, one speaks of an "appel", and spells it as "apple".
> In my Flemish, it is just the opposite;
> I say "apple" and spell it "appel". So this happens with a great
> variety of words like
> (Flemish/Dutch): beutre/Boter , veugle/vogel , regle/regel ,
> wizre/wijzer , Risle/Rijsel , kopple/koppel ,
> voadre/vader , wezne/wezen ,... (but not in plural forms : veugels,
> regels, wizers, koppels, voaders,  wezens...).
> Is this a shift that has happened elswhere in the Lowland languages ?
> And what is the oldest form here?
>
When reading veugle/vogel I thought of the oldest known piece of Dutch
text "hebben alle vogala". Perhaps in Flanders they went from vogala to
vogla/vogle or something similar? Or is it instead an indication that
the oldest known form was "vogal" or "vogel", with the plural being
"vogala"?

Or perhaps it's just French influence...

Henry

----------

From: marco [evenhuiscommunicatie] <marco at evenhuiscommunicatie.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.07.03 (01) [E]

Luc wrote:

> Just looked at the spelling of the word "apple" in  your list.
> I think in English, one speaks of an "appel", and spells it as "apple".
> In my Flemish, it is just the opposite;
> I say "apple" and spell it "appel". So this happens with a great
> variety of words like
> (Flemish/Dutch): beutre/Boter , veugle/vogel , regle/regel ,
> wizre/wijzer , Risle/Rijsel , kopple/koppel ,
> voadre/vader , wezne/wezen ,... (but not in plural forms : veugels,
> regels, wizers, koppels, voaders,  wezens...).
> Is this a shift that has happened elswhere in the Lowland languages ?
> And what is the oldest form here?

It is not a shift, it's just the old suffix -e that medieval Dutch also knew
and that survived in a number of dialects, including West-Flemish and
Zeelandic. I think the clue here is that there is an extra e (schwa) that
has become completely silent in most West-Flemish dialects. So your examples
should in fact be spelled appele, beutere, veugele, Riesele, vaodere, etc.,
but in reality do sound the way you described (apple, veugle, etc.). Compare
this to the suffix -e in words like straote, schuure, katte, etc. So it's
just stem+e and a 'forgotten' schwa in the stem... This also explains the
plural forms, which are just stem+s.

regards,

Marco

----------

From: Liza du Plooy <lizaduplooy at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.07.03 (01) [E]

Luc wrote:

Just looked at the spelling of the word "apple" in your list.
I think in English, one speaks of an "appel", and spells it as "apple".
In my Flemish, it is just the opposite;
I say "apple" and spell it "appel". So this happens with a great
variety of words like
(Flemish/Dutch): beutre/Boter , veugle/vogel , regle/regel ,
wizre/wijzer , Risle/Rijsel , kopple/koppel ,
voadre/vader , wezne/wezen ,...

This is why I love my language! In Afrikaans sê mens appel en jy spel dit
appel. Ek dink dit is 'n fantastiese en maklike taal. Hoera Afrikaans!

Liza du Plooy

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Haai, Liza!

In Nedersassies spel 'n mens ook "appel" (of "Appel") en sê "appel".  Maar
in die meeste tongvalle sê 'n mens die "-el" sonder 'n klinker; dis 'n
lettergrepig "l", asof "apl" gespel.

Groete,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Jul  4 23:23:59 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 16:23:59 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.04 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.4.JUL.2004.162359.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Dear Lowlanders,

Here's another question about lexical inventory in Lowlands languages.

I am more concerned about actual, native, original, normal usage than about
availability of lesser-used expressions and neologisms.

I have noticed that (again, in ordinary speech) both Lowlands Saxon (Low
German) and Scots tend to use the same word for "hill" and "mountain":

Lowlands Saxon: _barg_ <Barg> [ba:x]
Scots: _hill_ ~ _hull_

German and English, on the other hand, clearly distinguish between _Hügel_
and _Berg_ and between "hill" and "mountain" respectively.

Yiddish may represent an intermediate type, using _barg_ בארג (in some
dialects _berg_ בערג) for 'mountain' and its diminutive form _bergl_ בערגל
for 'hill'.

Now, in Lowlands Saxon you can use _bült_ <Bült> [bY.lt] or _knül_ <Knüll>
[knY.l] for 'hill', but I feel that these rather denote very small hills,
"glorified bumps," "knolls" in fact.  The normal word for both "hill" and
"mountain" is _barg_.

Similarly, you have available the Romance-derived word _muntain_ for
'mountain' in Scots, besides Celtic-derived _ben_ for very tall peaks of the
Scottish highlands.  But from my reading I take it that in normal Scots
_hill_ ~ _hull_ applies to 'mountain' as well.

Note also that in English "hill" is of native origin while "mountain" is a
Romance loan.

I believe that the numerous Frisian varieties of the Netherlands and Germany
have similar lack of distinction.

I keep wondering if this apparent (original?) lack of distinction is because
in the Lowlands you don't get anything that is taller than what we call a
"hill."  Real "mountains" are outside the original language region.
Newcomers to Hamburg, Germany, find it rather strange to find a range of
hills south of the southern branch of River Elbe referred to as _Harborger
Bargen_ (LS) and _Harburger Berge_ (G).  To people of the area they seem
like mountains (at least in the olden days), and they even try to ski on
them if there is snow in the winter.  The closest real mountains are the
Harz Mountains, that lie on the southern edge of the language area.

I wonder if there are similar situations in other Lowlands language
varieties, especially in the varieties of the Netherlands, Belgium and
Northern France.  I am less interested in reference to "real" ("exotic")
mountains outside that area.  I also wonder if those varieties "act"
differently from Afrikaans, given that Afrikaans-speaking areas (i.e.,
Southern Africa) do indeed have both hills (_heuwels_, _bulte_, _koppies_,
_rantjies_) and mountains (_berge_, _koppe_), besides knolls (_bulties_,
_heuwelties_).

Thanks for thinking about it!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul  5 18:36:05 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 11:36:05 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.05 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUL.2004.113605.0700.>

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From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Lexicon [E/N]

Dear all,

Interested in Ron's point that 'mountain' is a Romance
loan. In Northumbrian it becomes 'moontin', which
suggests a clear example of 'northumbrianisation'.
I've also noticed that hill gets used a lot instead of
mountain in Northumberland, e.g. the Cheviot Hills, an
area I suppose that could be classed as mountainous.

cheors,

Glenn Simpson

----------

From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.04 (04) [E]

R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> wrote:
 >
> I have noticed that (again, in ordinary speech) both Lowlands Saxon (Low
> German) and Scots tend to use the same word for "hill" and "mountain":
>
<snip/>
>
> Now, in Lowlands Saxon you can use _bült_ <Bült> [bY.lt] or _knül_ <Knüll>
> [knY.l] for 'hill', but I feel that these rather denote very small hills,
> "glorified bumps," "knolls" in fact.  The normal word for both "hill" and
> "mountain" is _barg_.
>
I can confirm it's the same in Twente Low Saxon, and I think in most
Saxon varieties on the Dutch side of the border. We also use "beld" for
hill, but it's used in more or less the same way as "bült".

grooten,
Henry

----------

From: Frédéric Baert <baert_frederic at CARAMAIL.COM>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.04 (04) [E]

Hi
As far as I know, french west flemish only know the word "berg" (with its
typical "e" pronunced much more like a "a" than like a "e") for
hill/mountain.
We use it to speak about our "mounts":
1: french flemish
2: french
3: english

1: Katsberg 2: mont des Cats 3: mount of the cats (an old tribe who has
lived there)
1: zwartenberg 2: mont noir 3: black mount
1: groenenberg of sintwinoksberg 2: mont vert ou mont Saint Winoc 3 the
green mount or mount of Saint Winoc (actual city of Bergues or Bergues
Saint Winoc)
1: kasselberg 2: mont Cassel 3 Cassel mount : the highest top of the whole
flanders with 176m.
and also in Belgium
1: Ro'enberg 2: mont rouge 3: red mount
1: Kemmelberg 2: mont kemmel 3: kemmel mount

As you said Ron, I think that, at least flemings did not need to have a
word for mountain since the highest tops are not more than 170m. In our
case, it's "berg" that have survived and we do not know a word related to
english "hill" any more.

Best regards
Frédéric Baert

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Thanks for the feed back, folks!

Here is my question again, because for some reason a whole bunch of people
have been joining us today, and I don't want them to be "deprived" of the
beginning of this thread.  ;-)  It will be followed by a postscript.

> Here's another question about lexical inventory in Lowlands languages.
>
> I am more concerned about actual, native, original, normal usage than
about
> availability of lesser-used expressions and neologisms.
>
> I have noticed that (again, in ordinary speech) both Lowlands Saxon (Low
> German) and Scots tend to use the same word for "hill" and "mountain":
>
> Lowlands Saxon: _barg_ <Barg> [ba:x]
> Scots: _hill_ ~ _hull_
>
> German and English, on the other hand, clearly distinguish between _Hügel_
> and _Berg_ and between "hill" and "mountain" respectively.
>
> Yiddish may represent an intermediate type, using _barg_ בארג (in some
> dialects _berg_ בערג) for 'mountain' and its diminutive form _bergl_ בערגל
> for 'hill'.
>
> Now, in Lowlands Saxon you can use _bült_ <Bült> [bY.lt] or _knül_ <Knüll>
> [knY.l] for 'hill', but I feel that these rather denote very small hills,
> "glorified bumps," "knolls" in fact.  The normal word for both "hill" and
> "mountain" is _barg_.
>
> Similarly, you have available the Romance-derived word _muntain_ for
> 'mountain' in Scots, besides Celtic-derived _ben_ for very tall peaks of
the
> Scottish highlands.  But from my reading I take it that in normal Scots
> _hill_ ~ _hull_ applies to 'mountain' as well.
>
> Note also that in English "hill" is of native origin while "mountain" is a
> Romance loan.
>
> I believe that the numerous Frisian varieties of the Netherlands and
Germany
> have similar lack of distinction.
>
> I keep wondering if this apparent (original?) lack of distinction is
because
> in the Lowlands you don't get anything that is taller than what we call a
> "hill."  Real "mountains" are outside the original language region.
> Newcomers to Hamburg, Germany, find it rather strange to find a range of
> hills south of the southern branch of River Elbe referred to as _Harborger
> Bargen_ (LS) and _Harburger Berge_ (G).  To people of the area they seem
> like mountains (at least in the olden days), and they even try to ski on
> them if there is snow in the winter.  The closest real mountains are the
> Harz Mountains, that lie on the southern edge of the language area.
>
> I wonder if there are similar situations in other Lowlands language
> varieties, especially in the varieties of the Netherlands, Belgium and
> Northern France.  I am less interested in reference to "real" ("exotic")
> mountains outside that area.  I also wonder if those varieties "act"
> differently from Afrikaans, given that Afrikaans-speaking areas (i.e.,
> Southern Africa) do indeed have both hills (_heuwels_, _bulte_, _koppies_,
> _rantjies_) and mountains (_berge_, _koppe_), besides knolls (_bulties_,
> _heuwelties_).

There's also the placename (nowadays a part of Hamburg, I believe) LS
_Bargdörp_ ['ba:xdœ.3p], German _Bergedorf_, literally "mountain village," a
place that has hills, at best.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul  5 18:39:35 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 11:39:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.05 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUL.2004.113935.0700.>

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From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.04 (01) [E/Breton/Portuguese]

I think Roger is fully right when setting up proportions. It is true that
other social problems are higher ranking.
But we are on a language forum aren't we?

denis dujardin

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul  5 19:02:34 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 12:02:34 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2004.07.05 (03) [A/E/LS]
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUL.2004.120234.0700.>

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From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen <kenneth.christiansen at gmail.com>
Subject: How open source can help us.

Hi there!

--
I like it! It looks almost exactly like the orthography I devised
myself. Probably because I used the same stuff as basis. Only difference
I see so far (just had a glance at your Tuunkrüper story) is the u/uu
sounds (as in Dutch). I use u for German u (as in "Flur"), ue for Dutch
short u (as in "put"), and uy for Dutch long u (as in "vuur"), so I
write "flure", "puette", and "duyre" (meaning door, because
"vuur"/"fire" would be "vöyr").
--

We use u for lax german u and for the ó (used in the Groninger
spelling) sound in dialects where u has turned into ó and is still
different from ò [O] and o.
We use ü for Dutch lax u.

--
I'm going to look into your ANS, and see if I can adopt it, i.e. whether
it fits my Saxon dialect. I think I will, because it seems like it's 90%
the same. Or perhaps with a few modifications, I don't know... Will see.
--

Sounds good :-)

--
Wat kan ik doon? Muet ik wat schryven? Kan ik wat bydreagen? Tyd het ik
wal, daet is geyn probleem.
--
As du tyd hest kinst misscheyn mit my ontmouten - k Bin nou in Grünnen
en ik dink tot vrydag.

--
Eyrstmaal kunst 'n vertellen vun "Dey Tuunkrüyper" schryven. Up dey wys'
warst künnig, wouans dat mit düsse schryvwys' is, of sey vör Dyn dialekt tou
bruken is.
--

Misscheyn kinst ook eyn mp3- of wav-bestand maken? It probleem mit
schryvwysen binnen vaak dey allofonen - lütje verschillen dat minschen
geern schyven willen.

--
Den gift 't 'n barg annere saken, un daar hett upstünds us Kenneth dat
seggen. (Dey junge snösel is dey motoor vun dat projekt un dey terrier, dey
my vaken by dey hakken tou byten is ...) Wy wült dat systeem beschryven, in
Sassisch, Ingelsch, Düytsch un Hollandsch, wen 't gayt. Wen Du mit-doun
wult, den kryg' ik min vun Kenneth syn druk tou spöyren ... ;-)
--

En dat dinkst? :P hahah

--
deyrt [dE.I3t] ~ [di:3t] 'animal'*
peyrd [pE.I3t] ~ [pi:3t] 'horse'*
peyrd' [pE:I3(d)] ~ [pi:.3(d)] 'horses'* (< peyrde)

* In some dialects, like those of the Lower Elbe region, diphthongs before
/r/ surface as high monophthongs.
--

en dat willen wy leiver neit in dey schyvwyse sein laden as it mögelk
is dat neit te doun.

We need to show the important differences between the dialects and not
the smaller ones. We need to unite the spelling and make it work for
most of the dialects - of course with out making it too difficult to
use. This is very important at least if we want to translate computer
software into Low Saxon.

----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.07.04 (03) [A/E]

Beste Liza du Plooy en Reinhard,

 Subject: LL-L "Phonology"

> This is why I love my language! In Afrikaans sê mens appel en jy spel dit
> appel. Ek dink dit is 'n fantastiese en maklike taal. Hoera Afrikaans!

Laat ons dit geniet wyls ons kan! Mense praat heelwat meer as hulle skryf,
en verander baie vinniger hul spreektaal as hul skryftaal. Eens op 'n tyd is
Engels ook gespreek soos dit geskryf is, nê? Ek verwag net so lank 'n
geskiedenis van Afrikaans as wat Engels tot op hede gehad het, en hoe sal
ons nageslag in die duistere toekoms vir ons Taal wil skel, met sy
ouderwetse en onnatuurlikke spelling!

(Let us enjoy it while we can! People speak rather more than they write, and
change their spoken language much quicker than their written language.  Once
upon a time English was also spoken as it was written, not so? I expect with
Afrikaans just as long a history as English has had until now, and how our
descendants in the distant future will want to cuss this language, with its
old-fashioned and unnatural spelling!)

> In Nedersassies spel 'n mens ook "appel" (of "Appel") en sê "appel".  Maar
> in die meeste tongvalle sê 'n mens die "-el" sonder 'n klinker; dis 'n
> lettergrepig "l", asof "apl" gespel.

Wil u aub hieroor uitbrei, Ron? Mynsinsiens het elke konsonant noodwendig 'n
"default" schwa: dit moet mos uitgespreek word, nê? Die Hebreuse alfabet is
baie afhanklik daarvan, maar is dit nie beter, in letterrgrepige verband, om
selfs die schwa by te voeg?

Groete,

Mark

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Mark (hierbo):

> Wil u aub hieroor uitbrei, Ron? Mynsinsiens het elke konsonant noodwendig
'n
> "default" schwa: dit moet mos uitgespreek word, nê? Die Hebreuse alfabet
is
> baie afhanklik daarvan, maar is dit nie beter, in letterrgrepige verband,
om
> selfs die schwa by te voeg?

Ja, dit glo ek dikwels ook, Mark, ook wat _-en_ en _-er_ betref.

Dis belangwekkend, dat ons in Nedersassies <-el>, <-en> en <-er> skryf maar
dit nooit met 'n klinker uitspreek nie.  (<-en> is 'n lettergrepige [n], [m]
of [N]/[ng], wat van die voorafgaande konsonant afhank. <-er> en <-r> is 'n
lettergreep met r-kleur -- "non-rhotic".)

Ek weet nie of hierdie <-el>, <-en> en <-er> in Middelsassies mit schwa word
uitgespreek nie, of of hierdie spellings aan invloed van Duitse en Hollandse
spellings te wyte is.  Maar vir die huidige dialekte neem ek fonemies
lettergrepig /-l/, /-n/ en /-r/ aan.

Groete,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul  5 19:05:25 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 12:05:25 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.05 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUL.2004.120525.0700.>

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From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen <kenneth.christiansen at gmail.com>
Subject: How open source can help us.

--
In short: Open source software is software of which the source is
available to anyone (almost always for free, but that's not a
requirement). Anyone may make modifications and/or redistribute the
software (without fees having to be payed to the author(s)).
--

Well open source is complicated because there are various different
licenses :) but generally it means what you said. Well, the most known
license is the GPL which requires you to always distribute the source
code (FOR FREE!) and if you make changes to the source (which is
allowed) you have to distribute the source code to those changes as
well (for free). You are allowed to sell products based on the source
code as long as you respect the license.

This means that we can take the source code and fix things that makes
the applicatiosn work with our languages, like for instance translate
different applications like GNOME, Evolution, OpenOffice, Mozilla
Firefox etc.

If anyone is interested in this I can surely help. I have many
contacts in the open source community (just came home from the open
source conference GUADEC - GNOME Users and Developers European
Conference in Kristiansand, Norway) and I used to be one of the
maintainers of the GNOME Translation Project.

Groutnis,
Kenneth

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul  5 19:23:45 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 12:23:45 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.05 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUL.2004.122345.0700.>

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From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.05 (01) [E]

Frederic,

But there are still some toponyms in Belgian Franders which refer to hill.
For example the village of Lotenhulle (near Gent), meaning Lo ten Hulle:
Forest on the hill.
Maybe "helling" is used in French Flemish. I never heard it though. "Helling
" meaning "slope" in Dutch.

best greetings

denis dujardin
kortrijk
flanders

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Denis, folks,

In the North Saxon dialects of Germany, the normal equivalent for the noun
'slope' or 'hillside' (i.e., sloping ground, German _Abhang_ lit. "off-hang"
or _Anhöhe_ lit. "on(to)-height") is _an-barg_ <Anbarg> ['?a.nba:x],
literally "on(to)-mountain/hill".  This can also denote a path or road that
goes up onto a hill or mountain.

Apparently, Scots has several general equivalents for this.  Of these, I
feel that _brae_ (related to or derived from Gaeilic _br� ighe_ 'upper part
(of a place)'?) is closest related in meaning to LS _an-barg_ in that it can
denote a fairly steep hillside or bank, an upland area, or a path or road
with a fairly steep gradient.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul  5 22:33:17 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 15:33:17 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.05 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUL.2004.153317.0700.>

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: "Lexicon" [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Lexicon
>
> Apparently, Scots has several general equivalents for this.  Of these, I
> feel that _brae_ (related to or derived from Gaeilic _br ighe_ 'upper part
> (of a place)'?) is closest related in meaning to LS _an-barg_ in that it
can
> denote a fairly steep hillside or bank, an upland area, or a path or road
> with a fairly steep gradient.

It doesn't have to be steep at all to qualify as a "brae".

Some common terminology:

braefit: the foot of a "brae".

braeheid: the flatter area at the top of a "brae".

snab: the place where the "brae" starts to level off before reaching the
"braeheid".

a stey brae: a steep "brae".

braes: an area with a number of topographically related "braes" or a
continuous winding embankment, eg "Lade Braes" in St Andrews, Fife.

A well-known proverb is "A stoot hert tae a stey brae." [@ stu? hIr? tI a
st at I bre:] - meaning "A stout (strong) heart to a steep
hillside/slope/path."

A popular idiomatic phrase for "to climb the hill" is "tae speel the brae".

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul  5 22:37:48 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 15:37:48 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.05 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUL.2004.153748.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Apparently, there is some etymological uncertainty here.

The _Chambers Concise Scots Dictionary_ connects Scots _brae_ and Gaelic
_br� ighe_ with Gaelic _bruach_ '(river) bank', 'brink'.

If so, there may be a connection with Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _brouk_
(<Brook>) [broUk] ~ [braUk] 'grassy slope by a (river) bank', also German
_Bruch_* (< _bruoh_), hence also with Dutch _broek_ and English "brook" <
Old English _brōc_.

* In Northern German dialects, the LS loan _Brook_ is often used instead of
German _Bruch_.  This is similar to LS-derived _Reet_ (< _reyd_ [rE.It] ~
[ra.It]) for _Ried_ 'reed'.  I am never sure if these refer to North German
variants (e.g., Northern-style reed-thatched houses) or are simply due to
"interference.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Andy (Scots-Online) <andy at scots-online.org>
Subject: [SPAM] Re:      LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.05 (05) [E]

Ron wrote:

> Apparently, Scots has several general equivalents for this.  Of these, I
> feel that _brae_ (related to or derived from Gaeilic _br ighe_ 'upper part
> (of a place)'?) is closest related in meaning to LS _an-barg_ in that it
can
> denote a fairly steep hillside or bank, an upland area, or a path or road
> with a fairly steep gradient.
>
Brae may also be related to Old Norse brá, eyelash , Anglo-Saxon bræcirc;w,
bréaw, eyelid, Old High German brâwa, German. braue, with development of
meaning from eyelash, eyelid, eyebrow, brow, to brow of a hill. Brow is brou
[bru:] in Scots

Andy Eagle

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Lexicon

Beste Ron,

The word "hill" (E) still exists in Brabantish, but is pronounced as
"(h)ül".

"een hülleken gras" (D) ~ "ön ülleke gäs" (B) is a bunch of grass, standing
out in a lawn that is otherwise level.

In other Dutch dialects "hil(le)" can also mean "height", "mound" and
"dune". The word appears to be cognate with Latin "collis" (= hill), Greek
"kolōnós" (= hill), Middle Irish "coll" (= head), Old Slavic "čelo" (=
forehead).

Another related expression is "met hulten en bulten" (D), "mé ujltn èn
bujltn" (B), which is most often used to describe farmland that has been
badly ploughed, making it look like a huge washboard with many ups and
downs. In this case however, "hult(e)" has probably been derived from
"hol(te)" (D), "hollow" (E); "bult" means "bulge".

Which makes me wonder by the way, why the Downs in Southern England actually
denote a range of hills?!?

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul  5 22:43:28 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 15:43:28 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2004.07.05 (08) [A]
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUL.2004.154328.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Mark, almal,

Ek het geskryf:

>  Mark (hierbo):
>
> > Wil u aub hieroor uitbrei, Ron? Mynsinsiens het elke konsonant
noodwendig
'n
> > "default" schwa: dit moet mos uitgespreek word, nê? Die Hebreuse alfabet
> is
> > baie afhanklik daarvan, maar is dit nie beter, in letterrgrepige
verband,
> om
> > selfs die schwa by te voeg?
>
> Ja, dit glo ek dikwels ook, Mark, ook wat _-en_ en _-er_ betref.
>
> Dis belangwekkend, dat ons in Nedersassies <-el>, <-en> en <-er> skryf
maar
> dit nooit met 'n klinker uitspreek nie.  (<-en> is 'n lettergrepige [n],
[m]
> of [N]/[ng], wat van die voorafgaande konsonant afhank. <-er> en <-r> is
'n
> lettergreep met r-kleur -- "non-rhotic".)
>
> Ek weet nie of hierdie <-el>, <-en> en <-er> in Middelsassies mit schwa
word
> uitgespreek nie, of of hierdie spellings aan invloed van Duitse en
Hollandse
> spellings te wyte is.  Maar vir die huidige dialekte neem ek fonemies
> lettergrepig /-l/, /-n/ en /-r/ aan.

Hier is nog 'n paar oorweginge met betrekking tot die vra, of die
agtervoegsels _-el_, _-en_ en
_-er_ 'n klinkerfoneem het of nie.

In die geval van _-el_ sou ons sê, dat dit fonemies /-l/ (sonder
klinkerfoneem) is, omdat dit skynbaar in geen Laaglandse variëteit met 'n
klinker uitgespreek word.  In die gevalle van _-en_ en _-er_ is ek met
betrekking tot die Nederfrankiese variëteite (Afrikaans inbegrepe) nie so
seker nie.

(1) _-en_
Die meeste Nederfrankiese variëteite (Hollands, Vlaams, Seelands, Afrikaans
en die Nederfrankiese dialekte van Duitsland) spreek dit _-en_ soos _-e_
(schwa [@]) geskryf uit, en in Afrikaans skryf 'n mens dit ook _-e_.  Maar
teoreties kan dit 'n sekondêr-ontwikkeling wees: /-n/ > [@n] = _-en_ > [@] >
_-e_.  In die veroostelike Nedersassiese dialekte (van die gebiedee, wat
teenswordig in Noordpole en Russies Kaliningrad is) is dit ook die geval.
(Die meeste daarvan is al uitgesterf, maar die Mennonietiese dialekte
("Plautdietsch") bestaan nog buite daardie gebiede, en hulle s'n spelling is
ook _-e_ soos in Afrikaans.)

(2) _-er_
Die meeste Nederfrankiese variëteite (Hollands, Vlaams, Seelands, Afrikaans
en die Nederfrankiese dialekte van Duitsland) is "rhoties" (d.w.s. julle
spreek _-r_ aan die einde van 'n lettergreep uit), en daarom moet tussen die
_-r_ en 'n voorafgaande medeklinker 'n schwa uitgespreek word.  Of hierdie
schwa fonemies (d.w.s. onderlêend) of epenteties (d.w.s. reëlmatig ingevoeg)
is ... hmm ... Hoe kan ons dit uitvind?

Groete,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul  5 22:46:53 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 15:46:53 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.05 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUL.2004.154653.0700.>

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From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.05 (04) [E]

Kenneth Rohde Christiansen <kenneth.christiansen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> In short: Open source software is software of which the source is
> available to anyone (almost always for free, but that's not a
> requirement). Anyone may make modifications and/or redistribute the
> software (without fees having to be payed to the author(s)).
> --
>
> Well open source is complicated because there are various different
> licenses :) but generally it means what you said. Well, the most known
> license is the GPL which requires you to always distribute the source
> code (FOR FREE!) and if you make changes to the source (which is
> allowed) you have to distribute the source code to those changes as
> well (for free).
>
No, not for free, that's a common misconception. The point is: you have
to charge everybody equally, with no exclusion for certain fields of
endeavours. The open source definition does not say per definition that
you have to share the source for free. However, 99.99% of open source
software is distributed for free.

As, for example, the GPL says:

Preamble: [Our General Public Licenses are designed to make sure that
you have the freedom to distribute copies of free software (and charge
for this service if you wish)]

Clause 1: [You may charge a fee for the physical act of transferring a
copy] (copy meaning of the source code)

Anyway, that doesn't matter much, since virtually every bit of open
source software is distributed gratis. That means we can get the source
code, translate it to Saxon (or whatever non-represented minority
language you like), and publish the translated software (preferrably
compiled). We could for example put together an Internet suite and
translate it into Saxon. Or OpenOffice (which is like Microsoft Office).
Or both.

regards,
Henry

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul  6 14:34:55 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 07:34:55 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.06 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.073455.0700.>

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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.04 (04) [E]


  From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
  Subject: Lexicon

  Dear Lowlanders,

  Here's another question about lexical inventory in Lowlands languages.

  I am more concerned about actual, native, original, normal usage than
about
  availability of lesser-used expressions and neologisms.

  I have noticed that (again, in ordinary speech) both Lowlands Saxon (Low
  German) and Scots tend to use the same word for "hill" and "mountain":

  Lowlands Saxon: _barg_ <Barg> [ba:x]
  Scots: _hill_ ~ _hull_

  German and English, on the other hand, clearly distinguish between _Hügel_
  and _Berg_ and between "hill" and "mountain" respectively.

  Yiddish may represent an intermediate type, using _barg_ ???? (in some
  dialects _berg_ ????) for 'mountain' and its diminutive form _bergl_ ?????
  for 'hill'.

  Now, in Lowlands Saxon you can use _bült_ <Bült> [bY.lt] or _knül_ <Knüll>
  [knY.l] for 'hill', but I feel that these rather denote very small hills,
  "glorified bumps," "knolls" in fact. The normal word for both "hill" and
  "mountain" is _barg_.

  Similarly, you have available the Romance-derived word _muntain_ for
  'mountain' in Scots, besides Celtic-derived _ben_ for very tall peaks of
the
  Scottish highlands. But from my reading I take it that in normal Scots
  _hill_ ~ _hull_ applies to 'mountain' as well.

  Note also that in English "hill" is of native origin while "mountain" is a
  Romance loan.

  I believe that the numerous Frisian varieties of the Netherlands and
Germany
  have similar lack of distinction.

  I keep wondering if this apparent (original?) lack of distinction is
because
  in the Lowlands you don't get anything that is taller than what we call a
  "hill." Real "mountains" are outside the original language region.
  Newcomers to Hamburg, Germany, find it rather strange to find a range of
  hills south of the southern branch of River Elbe referred to as _Harborger
  Bargen_ (LS) and _Harburger Berge_ (G). To people of the area they seem
  like mountains (at least in the olden days), and they even try to ski on
  them if there is snow in the winter. The closest real mountains are the
  Harz Mountains, that lie on the southern edge of the language area.

  I wonder if there are similar situations in other Lowlands language
  varieties, especially in the varieties of the Netherlands, Belgium and
  Northern France. I am less interested in reference to "real" ("exotic")
  mountains outside that area. I also wonder if those varieties "act"
  differently from Afrikaans, given that Afrikaans-speaking areas (i.e.,
  Southern Africa) do indeed have both hills (_heuwels_, _bulte_, _koppies_,
  _rantjies_) and mountains (_berge_, _koppe_), besides knolls (_bulties_,
  _heuwelties_).

  Thanks for thinking about it!

  Regards,
  Reinhard/Ron


Hi Ron,
In Dutchwe have: berg, heuvel, bult, top
In Flemish we have: berg, heuvle, hille, hil, bulte, hoôgte, top, hoôp,
molshoôp.
Something that is higher than its surroundings is called a "hul" (V: een hul
tubak stikt uut de pupe/een hul boôm'/ een hul bloem' / een hul ges (=D:
gras)...)
"Knol" is only used for round roots of plants.
Everything that is higher than a 100 metres is called a "berg" in our
lowland.

groetjes
luc vanbrabant
oekene

----------

From: Peter Snepvangers <snepvangers at optushome.com.au>
Subject: Lexicon


From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
I am more concerned about actual, native, original, normal usage than about
availability of lesser-used expressions and neologisms.
I have noticed that (again, in ordinary speech) both Lowlands Saxon (Low
German) and Scots tend to use the same word for "hill" and "mountain":

Hello Ron and Lowlanders,
I asked my mum and some of her friends ( some Dutch and some Limbugers) what
they use and this was the reply. Generally for Mountain they all use Berg
(one said Bergketen). Other words used are Alp, Hanekam (for ridge), Piek ,
Spits and Naas. I think this is the same as Neus or nose. The words used for
Hill are Heuvel, Hull (not sure how spelt) and Kopp.
Cheers
Peter Snepvangers
snepvangers at optushome.com.au

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul  6 15:39:49 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:39:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.06 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.083949.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Folks,

With regard to words for "hill" and "mountain" we have been discussing under
"Lexicon" and "Etymology" I ought to mention that in many Lowlands Saxon
(Low German) dialects, certainly those in the Northern range, _barg_ [ba:x]
'hill/mountain' is frequently used to denote 'many' or 'much', much like
English 'a bunch of'.  This is not necessarily used with nouns that denote
items that can be heaped up.

The usual way of using it is with _'n_ (or "formally" _eyn_) 'a', but in
some dialects you can omit this; thus for example

_('n) barg böyker_ 'many books'*
_('n) barg minschen_ 'lots of people'
_('n) barg saken_ 'many matters', 'many things'
_('n) barg tüyg_ 'a lot of fabric', 'lots of clothes'
_('n) barg tüynkraam_ 'a bunch of nonsense'
_('n) barg spraken_ 'many languages'
_('n) barg arbayd_ 'loads of work'

* different from _'n stapel böyker_ 'a stack of books'

However, there seem to be some restrictions of use.  It does not work with
most uncountable nouns, in which case the first choice would be _veel_
[fe:l] ~ [fE:l] 'much', 'many'; for instance

_veel water_ 'much water', 'a lot of water' (not *_('n) barg water_)
_veel sand_ 'a lot of sand' (vs _('n) barg sand_ 'a mound/heap of sand')

This includes most temporal expressions; for instance

_veel tyd_ 'a lot of time' (not *_('n) barg tyd_)
_veel~vele daag'_ 'many days' (not *('n) barg daag'_)
_veel ogenblikken_ 'many moments' (_('n) barg ogenblikken_?)

But the following sound somewhat acceptable to me:

_('n) barg jaren_ ~ _veel jaren_ 'many years'
_('n) barg maanden_ ~ _veel maanden_ 'many months'
_('n) barg weken_ ~ _veel weken_ 'many years'
_('n) barg jaarhunderden~ewen_ ~ _veel jaren~ewen_ 'many centuries'

Perhaps this is because these are definitely countable.

_('n) barg ogenblikken_ 'many moments' sounds marginal to me but may be all
right.

Theoretically, this _('n) barg_ ought not work with _arbayd_ 'work'
mentioned above, but I guess _('n) barg arbayd_ implies the sense of
countable jobs.

Incidentally, _veel_ can be used with all countable nouns as well; e.g.,
_veel böyker_ 'many books', etc.

I believe there are similar devices in the dialects of Eastern Friesland,
using _bült_ 'hill', 'mound'.  Is that correct?

How about similar expressions in other Lowlands varieties?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul  6 16:01:08 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 09:01:08 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.06 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.090108.0700.>

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From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen <kenneth.christiansen at gmail.com>
Subject:

--
No, not for free, that's a common misconception. The point is: you have
to charge everybody equally, with no exclusion for certain fields of
endeavours. The open source definition does not say per definition that
you have to share the source for free. However, 99.99% of open source
software is distributed for free.
--

I was talking about the GPL here

--
Clause 1: [You may charge a fee for the physical act of transferring a
copy] (copy meaning of the source code)
--

Yes, PHYSICAL act of transferring. Ie. for instance a copy on a cd.

--
Anyway, that doesn't matter much, since virtually every bit of open
source software is distributed gratis. That means we can get the source
code, translate it to Saxon (or whatever non-represented minority
language you like), and publish the translated software (preferrably
compiled). We could for example put together an Internet suite and
translate it into Saxon. Or OpenOffice (which is like Microsoft Office).
Or both.
--

Well the idea is to get it in the official distribution

Cheers,
Kenneth
kenneth at gnu.org

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Resources

Folks,

The person Kenneth quoted above was Henry Pijffers.

Regards,
Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
Founder & Administrator, Lowlands-L
lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
http://www.lowlands-l.net

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul  6 21:06:56 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 14:06:56 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Events" 2004.07.06 (04) [D/E]
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.140656.0700.>

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: Events

I got in the announcement below.
Regards,
Roger

Beste Roger, Patrick
Hierbij een uitnodiging; Kan jij die verspreiden bij je geïnteresseerde
vrienden, collega's?
Op 29 augustus vindt van 10u tot 12u in de bovenzalen van het kasteel van
Bokrijk,  een symposium plaats over dialecten.

Het programma omvat:

  - Gerard Rooijakkers: Anders en/ of eigen? De rol van het andere Limburg
in de eigen identiteitsconstructie. Over het thema transnationale
identiteiten in de beide Limburgen in een ruimere volksculturele context.

  - Rob Belemans: Dialectkennis en dialectbeleving in de beide Limburgen.
Over de taalgebonden aspecten op basis van de Limburg - enquête

  - Georg Cornelissen: de Rijnlandse dialecten: oost-oost - Limburgs? Deze
spreker verruimt het blikveld door de aangrenzende dialecten voor te stellen
vanuit hun verwantschap met de Limburgse

  Toegangsprijs: 10 euro: koffie en ticket Openluchtmuseum inbegrepen

  Het programma in het Openluchtmuseum omvat een gevarieerd aanbod van
muziek en theater in het dialect. Met een infobeurs waar geschied- en
heemkundige kringen + dialectverenigingen publicaties in het dialect te koop
aan bieden, een dialectbox en een interactief spel op en rond een
dialectkaart van beide Limburgen. Later op de dag is er een
"dialect-popfestival" met gerenommeerde groepen als de Jansse Bagge Band, Gé
Reinders, Perrongeluk, Ongenode Gasten, Kate Ryan, Tony en de Hangmatten en
Neet oet Lottem.

Graag vooraf inschrijven per telefoon 011 265323, per fax 011265310 of via
email aboesmans at limburg.be

Met vriendelijke groet en dank bij voorbaat

Annick Boesmans

Conservator Openluchtmuseum Bokrijk
Domein Bokrijk - 3600 Genk
tel 32-011/265 322
fax 32-011/265 310
e-mail: aboesmans at limburg.be

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul  6 21:08:18 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 14:08:18 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.06 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.140818.0700.>

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.05 (06) [E]

Dear Sandy Fleming & All,

Subject: "Lexicon" [E]

> Some common terminology involving 'brae'.

It's no surprise to me how developed a terminology the Scots have on every
kind & context or degree of 'slope'.
is there any level place in that country at all - apart from the courtyard
before Holyrood Castle?

Yrs,
Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul  6 21:13:10 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 14:13:10 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.06 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.141310.0700.>

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: "Idiomatica" [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Idiomatica
>
> With regard to words for "hill" and "mountain" we have been discussing
under
> "Lexicon" and "Etymology" I ought to mention that in many Lowlands Saxon
> (Low German) dialects, certainly those in the Northern range, _barg_
[ba:x]
> 'hill/mountain' is frequently used to denote 'many' or 'much', much like
> English 'a bunch of'.  This is not necessarily used with nouns that denote
> items that can be heaped up.

In Scots a "bing" is a slag heap, ie the hills of slag left after many years
of mining operations. It's used copiously in Scots, usually in the plural:

bings o beuks: 'many books'*
bings o fowk: 'lots of people'
bings o 'hings: 'lots of things'
bings o claes: 'lots of clothes'
bings o langages: 'many languages'
bings o wark: 'loads of work'

but:

a heap o nonsense: 'a bunch of nonsense'

I think the reason you wouldn't use "bings" with "nonsense" is that "bings"
is used to express an abundance and so wouldn't be used with something
negative like "nonsense".

It does work with uncountable nouns:

bings o sugar: 'a lot of sugar'
bings o sand: 'a lot of sand'

However, I think it does apply only to uncountable nouns that could actually
be heaped up, so not "*bings o watter".

I think large quantities of time are most commonly expressed by saying that
they follow one after the other:

years on end: 'many years'
months on end: 'many months'
weeks on end: 'many weeks'
days on end: 'many days'
oors on end: 'many hours'

but not for units smaller than this (it might raise a laugh to say, "He can
sit thare an read for meenits on end"  :)

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul  6 21:29:39 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 14:29:39 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.06 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.142939.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Sandy listed the following Scots phrases under "Idiomatica":

> years on end: 'many years'
> months on end: 'many months'
> weeks on end: 'many weeks'
> days on end: 'many days'
> oors on end: 'many hours'

Of course, "on end" in this sense is used in English as well, probably
denoting "an endless string of" or "endless" originally.

I often think about this and wonder if this "on" is unrelated to the usual
word "on," if it is related to Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _aan_ and German
_ohne_, meaning 'without'.  In LS you can say _aan end_ also, meaning
"without end," 'endless(ly)', German _endlos_ (also _ohne Ende_).

Of course, then this particular "on end" would have a different origin from
that of "on end" as in "My hair(s) stood at end."

I can find nothing in etymological notes and in Old English that would
support this.  However, "on end" in the sense of "without end" seems a bit
strange, doesn't it?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul  6 21:44:23 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 14:44:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.06 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.144423.0700.>

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: "Lexicon" [E]

> From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.05 (06) [E]
>
> Dear Sandy Fleming & All,
>
> Subject: "Lexicon" [E]
>
> > Some common terminology involving 'brae'.
>
> It's no surprise to me how developed a terminology the Scots have on every
> kind & context or degree of 'slope'.
> is there any level place in that country at all - apart from the courtyard
> before Holyrood Castle?

It's not called the Lowlands for nothing! There are many flat, arable areas.

Large flat areas are called "plains" as in English, eg the Lothian Plain.

A low-lying region amongst hills (a hollow as in Sleepy Hollow) is called a
"howe", eg the Howe o Fife, the Howe o Auchterless.

A small, flat low-lying area, perhaps as small as a few fields, is called a
"hauch", usually written "Haugh" on maps, eg the North Haugh in St Andrews,
Fife.

A fertile low-lying region in a glaciated valley with a river running
through the middle is called a "carse", eg the Carse o Gowrie.

A flat arable area that has been turned into fields is called "meedaes"
(cognate with English "meadows"), eg "The Meedaes" - the plot of fields to
the west of my own village.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul  6 22:04:32 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:04:32 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.06 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.150432.0700.>

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From: Gavin Falconer <Gavin.Falconer at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.06 (07) [E]

Ron said:

"I often think about this and wonder if this "on" is unrelated to the usual
word "on," if it is related to Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _aan_ and German
_ohne_, meaning 'without'.  In LS you can say _aan end_ also, meaning
"without end," 'endless(ly)', German _endlos_ (also _ohne Ende_)."

Scots of course has its own privative prefix wan-, as in wanhowp, wanchance,
etc.  I don't think it's used productively any more, except perhaps by Scots
who know German ohn- and wish to create a reformed anti-Latinate language.

--
Gavin

Gavin Falconer

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Ah!  Thanks, Gavin!  You made my penny drop.  ;-)

Old English has _wan_ 'lacking' (= 'without'), and _wana_ 'lack', and I
assume "want" (_wan+t_ "lack"/"absence" > "need") is related to these.

Modern Lowlands Saxon (Low German) has for instance _wanschapen_
['va.nSQ:pm] for 'ugly'.  (I take it that this _schapen_ is related to
'create' and in this case refers to 'proper/pleasing form'.)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Wim <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.06 (07) [E]

>>From wim verdoold  wkv at home.nl

Hi

about "on end" how about "un ending"   as  a root for  that?

wim

http://members.home.nl/wkv/index.html

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul  7 03:14:22 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 20:14:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2004.07.06 (10) [D/E]
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.201422.0700.>

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From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2004.06.30 (03) [D/E]

Hallo Henno,

Vlamingen gebruiken gij/ge als gewone aanspreekvorm. Wel stel ik vast
dat heel wat jongere Vlamingen problemen beginnen te krijgen met de
sterke vormen met verlengde klinker in de verleden tijd. Ik hoor vaak
vormen met korte klinker in de tweede persoon, bv. ge nam(t). Er lijkt
steeds meer onzekerheid te groeien over deze werkwoordsvormen. Toen ik
onlangs een kennis van mij, een jongedame die  pas afgestudeerd was als
'regentes Nederlands' (d.i. een lerares voor het lager secundair
onderwijs), erop wees dat 'gij hadt' met dt diende te worden geschreven,
geloofde ze me niet en bekeek ze me of ik pas van de planeet Mars
gekomen was. Het kostte me heel wat moeite om haar er uiteindelijk van
te overtuigen dat ik het bij het rechte eind had.

Hartelijk,

Roger Hondshoven

-----Original Message-----


From: Stella en Henno <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.06.30 (01) [E]

Tony schreef:

> read in a national news paper). One thing he would not teach, however,

> was how to conjugate verbs with "gij". This is, in my opinion, very
unfortunate
> as you *will* hear it everyday in Flanders, so it might be useful to
> know, even if you don't actually use it yourself. (And if anyone knows

> of a book or website with it, please contact me offlist.)

Wel, ik reageer even op de lijst zelf, aangezien andere leerders er
wellicht baat bij hebben. Ik heb er even de ANS (algemene Nederlandse
spraakkunst) bijgehaald, en die vermeldt (2de druk) de (regelmatige)
vormen op pagina 83 en 84. In de tegenwoordige tijd: de -t vorm als bij
"hij" (de t verdwijnt niet in de inversie): ge loopt, loopt ge? (zowel
enkelvoud als meervoud) [as an historical aside: gij/ge is the same as
English "ye", (and Northern Dutch jij, Low Saxon ji etc.) and originally
a plural form (like "vous" in French); originally it also was "jullie
komt"..] ge vindt, vindt ge? etc. In de verleden tijd wordt zwak gewoon
-te of -de gebruikt: ge werkte, ge leefde. Sterk behoudt men een -t,
hetgeen er vreemd uitziet: gij vondt, gij liept, gij kwaamt (met een uit
het meervoud afkomstige lange a, vergelijk wij kwamen). Als enkelvoud en
meervoud sterk zijn en een verschillende lengte hebben geldt dit steeds,
dus ook "ge naamt" bijv. (nam - namen). Steeds geldt dit voor enkelvoud
en meervoud.

Groeten,

Henno Brandsma

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

The North Saxon dialects of Lowlands Saxon (Low German) retain the old
personal pronoun system (with the regular/weak verb _leyren_ /leir-/ 'to
learn', 'to teach' as example):

PRESENT:
Singular:
   1st: ik ... (ik leyr < ik leyre)
   2nd: du ...st (du leyrst)
   3nd: hey/sey/et~it~dat ...t (hey/sey/et~it~dat leyrt)
Plural:
   1st: wy ...t ~ ...en (wy leyrt ~ wy leyren)
   2nd: jy ...t ~ ...en (jy leyrt ~ jy leyren)
   3nd: sey ...t ~ ...en (sey leyrt ~ sey leyren)

PRETERITE:
Singular:
   1st: ik ... (ik leyr < leyrde)
   2nd: du ...st (du leyrst < leyrdest)
   3nd: hey/sey/et~it~dat ... (hey/sey/et~it~dat leyr < leyrde)
Plural:
   1st: wy ...en (wy leyren < leyrden)
   2nd: jy ...en (jy leyren < leyrden)
   3nd: sey ...en (sey leyren < leyrden)

_Jy_ [(d)ji:] (< _gy_), objective _ju_ [(d)ju:], still functions as the
second person plural pronoun, while the Low Franconian, English and Scots
equivalents shifted, becoming the second person polite pronoun (both
singular and plural), and in English and Scots finally the general second
person plural (English "you," gradually dropping objective "ye," and Scots
generalizing to _ye_), almost completely relacing familiar singular "thou"
(objective "thee").

North Saxon:
   ik - my ([?Ik] - [mi:])
   du - dy ([du:] - [di:])
   m. hey - em ([hE.I] ~ [?E.m])
   f. sey - er ([zE.I] - [?E.3`])
   n. it ~ et ~ dat - it ~ et ~ dat ([?It] ~ [?Et] ~ [dat])
   wy - uns ~ us ([vi:] - [?U.ns] ~ [?U.s])
   jy - ju ([(d)ji:] ~ [(d)ju:])
   sey - jüm ~ jem ([zE.I] - [(d)jY.m] ~ [(d)jE.m])

Under German influence, _Sey_ (<Se>, originally 'they') has come to be used
as the polite second person pronoun (singular and plural), but most people
do not use expected _Jüm_ ~ _Jem_ in the objective case; they use _Sey_,
influenced by German accusative _Sie_.  "Purists" like myself say _Jüm_ or
_Jem_ in such cases.  In fact, especially many urbanites are gradually
disregarding even non-polite objective _jüm_ ~ _jem_ and use _sey_ instead.
I have to admit that hearing and reading this makes me cringe, even *if* I
try not to think in prescriptive terms.

When polite pronouns where used before the 20th century (which was reserved
to addressing a small number of "higher-ups") it was _Jy_ (with the
predictable objective form _Ju_, see above).

As in German, talking down to "underlings" was also possible before the 20th
century (typically used by aristocrats, squires and their kin in addressing
peasants).  In those cases the third person pronouns were used.  (See
above.)  So, a male would be addressed as _hey_ (German _er_), a female as
_sey_ (German _sie_) and several people as _sey_ (German _sie_).

Polite forms used to be used very rarely, very sparingly, much less than in
German, only in addressing outsiders of "high" standing (if they were
addressed in LS).  Certainly, parents and grandparents were not addressed
using polite pronouns, which until about the middle of the 19th century this
*was* the custom in "better" German-speaking families, using also "Mister,"
"Mistress" and _Miss_ (e.g., _Herr Papa_ 'father', _Frau Mama_ 'mother',
_werte Frau Großmama_ 'dear grandmother', _das Fräulein Tochter_ lit. "Miss
Daughter" = 'the young lady' [the latter used by servants]).  This was alien
to LS-speaking communities, thoroughly _geel_ "yellow" (= "High" German).
Even now, to many people, especially those in rural areas, any use of polite
pronouns is _geel_.  Many enjoy the use of "the old language" in part
because it allows you to disregard social class in most cases without danger
of causing offense.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul  7 03:16:35 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 20:16:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.06 (11) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.201635.0700.>

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From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.05 (01) [E]

Dear all,

General Dutch distinguishes between 'heuvel' ("hill") and 'berg'
("mountain"). Flemish, indeed, has lost 'heuvel'. All mountains and hills,
whether low or tall, are indiscriminately called 'berg'. In some placenames,
however, 'hil/hul' has been preserved: e.g. Lotenhulle (in East-Flanders).

Kind regards,

Roger

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul  7 14:40:04 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 07:40:04 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.07 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUL.2004.074004.0700.>

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S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.04 (04) [E]

Lowlands-L wrote:
For me because of  my surname all this talk about mountain terms is very
interesting :-)

Even if it has been semantically demoted

David Barrow

>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Lexicon
>
>Dear Lowlanders,
>
>Here's another question about lexical inventory in Lowlands languages.
>
>I am more concerned about actual, native, original, normal usage than about
>availability of lesser-used expressions and neologisms.
>
>I have noticed that (again, in ordinary speech) both Lowlands Saxon (Low
>German) and Scots tend to use the same word for "hill" and "mountain":
>
>Lowlands Saxon: _barg_ <Barg> [ba:x]
>Scots: _hill_ ~ _hull_
>
>German and English, on the other hand, clearly distinguish between _Hügel_
>and _Berg_ and between "hill" and "mountain" respectively.
>
>Yiddish may represent an intermediate type, using _barg_ בארג (in some
>dialects _berg_ בערג) for 'mountain' and its diminutive form _bergl_ בערגל
>for 'hill'.
>
>Now, in Lowlands Saxon you can use _bült_ <Bült> [bY.lt] or _knül_ <Knüll>
>[knY.l] for 'hill', but I feel that these rather denote very small hills,
>"glorified bumps," "knolls" in fact.  The normal word for both "hill" and
>"mountain" is _barg_.
>
>Similarly, you have available the Romance-derived word _muntain_ for
>'mountain' in Scots, besides Celtic-derived _ben_ for very tall peaks of
the
>Scottish highlands.  But from my reading I take it that in normal Scots
>_hill_ ~ _hull_ applies to 'mountain' as well.
>
>Note also that in English "hill" is of native origin while "mountain" is a
>Romance loan.
>
>I believe that the numerous Frisian varieties of the Netherlands and
Germany
>have similar lack of distinction.
>
>I keep wondering if this apparent (original?) lack of distinction is
because
>in the Lowlands you don't get anything that is taller than what we call a
>"hill."  Real "mountains" are outside the original language region.
>Newcomers to Hamburg, Germany, find it rather strange to find a range of
>hills south of the southern branch of River Elbe referred to as _Harborger
>Bargen_ (LS) and _Harburger Berge_ (G).  To people of the area they seem
>like mountains (at least in the olden days), and they even try to ski on
>them if there is snow in the winter.  The closest real mountains are the
>Harz Mountains, that lie on the southern edge of the language area.
>
>I wonder if there are similar situations in other Lowlands language
>varieties, especially in the varieties of the Netherlands, Belgium and
>Northern France.  I am less interested in reference to "real" ("exotic")
>mountains outside that area.  I also wonder if those varieties "act"
>differently from Afrikaans, given that Afrikaans-speaking areas (i.e.,
>Southern Africa) do indeed have both hills (_heuwels_, _bulte_, _koppies_,
>_rantjies_) and mountains (_berge_, _koppe_), besides knolls (_bulties_,
>_heuwelties_).
>
>Thanks for thinking about it!
>
>Regards,
>Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Tom <jmaguire at pie.xtec.es>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.06 (05) [E]

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>

>Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.05 (06) [E]
>
>Dear Sandy Fleming & All,
>
>Subject: "Lexicon" [E]
>
>>Some common terminology involving 'brae'.
>
>It's no surprise to me how developed a terminology the Scots have on every
>kind & context or degree of 'slope'.
>is there any level place in that country at all - apart from the courtyard
>before Holyrood Castle?
>
>Yrs,
>Mark

Well consider yourself lucky to live after the ice age when the glaciers
rounded down the Scottish mountains which were then higher than the Alps.

Regards,

Tom [Maguire]

----------

From: marco [evenhuiscommunicatie] <marco at evenhuiscommunicatie.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.06 (11) [E]

Roger Hondshoven wrote:

> General Dutch distinguishes between 'heuvel' ("hill") and 'berg'
> ("mountain"). Flemish, indeed, has lost 'heuvel'. All mountains and hills,
> whether low or tall, are indiscriminately called 'berg'. In some
placenames,
> however, 'hil/hul' has been preserved: e.g. Lotenhulle (in East-Flanders).

Zeelandic has the words 'berg' (pronounciation mostly 'barg') and '(h)il'.
'Berg' is used for almost every bump in the landscape, but is used
particularly for artificial mouds that were erected as a safe have during
floodings and (viking) raids in the 10th-13th century. Some of them have
eroded and are only 50cm high now, others have changed very little and still
have their original, impressive dimensions (usually between 20 and 30 meters
in diameter, 2-12 meters high) and are a very characteristic feature in the
landscape of some parts of Zeeland. On the isle of Walcheren, about 20 of
these 'bergen' still exist.
More information (in Dutch) and a picture can be found at
http://www.hetzeeuwselandschap.nl/kaart/index.php?kaart=23

The word '(h)il' can be used for a proper hill, but is mostly used for high
sand dunes along the coast. In the coastal town of Domburg for instance, one
of the most prominent dunes in the village is called 'den 'ogen 'il' (the
high hill).
On the isle of Goeree-Overflakkee, a 'hil' is one of the words for a farm. I
bet this goes back to the days when houses, farmhouses, etc. where built on
a mound for protection against floodings.

Regards,

Marco

----------

From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Lexicon [E/N]

Dear Ruth/Mark & all,

The word 'haugh(s)' is extremely common in
Northumberland. It is understood as a flat area of
land usually adjacent to a river. I suspect it is an
area of flood plain that is highly fertile which our
Anglian ancestors made particular note of, hence the
number of them across Northumberland. There is also
the word 'heugh', which I've forgotten the meaning of
but will research it.

On hills, the word 'bank' is often used where a hill
has a road, footpath or steps going up/down.

Gan canny,

Glenn Simpson

----------

From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.06 (08) [E]

> From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
> Subject: "Lexicon" [E]
>
>> From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
>> Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.05 (06) [E]
>>
>> Dear Sandy Fleming & All,
>>
>> Subject: "Lexicon" [E]
>>
>>> Some common terminology involving 'brae'.
>>
>> It's no surprise to me how developed a terminology the Scots have on
>> every
>> kind & context or degree of 'slope'.
V:schuinte / helling / glooiing /
>> is there any level place in that country at all - apart from the
>> courtyard
>> before Holyrood Castle?

In Flemish there is a disappeard word, "bra" that had the meaning of
"berm"(=E:verge).
We still use the word the verb "brauwen" in " 't land brauwen" (= to
make a winterbed of the soil in the garden, to make verges)
"een brauw" was a little path on a hight.
Could that be related to our eyebrow (V: wenkbrauw)?

> It's not called the Lowlands for nothing! There are many flat, arable
> areas.
>
> Large flat areas are called "plains" as in English, eg the Lothian
> Plain.
 From French: la plaine
V: vlakte
>
> A low-lying region amongst hills (a hollow as in Sleepy Hollow) is
> called a
> "howe", eg the Howe o Fife, the Howe o Auchterless.
>
> A small, flat low-lying area, perhaps as small as a few fields, is
> called a
> "hauch", usually written "Haugh" on maps, eg the North Haugh in St
> Andrews,
> Fife.
>
> A fertile low-lying region in a glaciated valley with a river running
> through the middle is called a "carse", eg the Carse o Gowrie.
>
> A flat arable area that has been turned into fields is called "meedaes"
> (cognate with English "meadows"), eg "The Meedaes" - the plot of
> fields to
> the west of my own village.
V: meers / bilk / (wei)land /
>
> Sandy
> http://scotstext.org/
groetjes
luc vanbrabant
oekene

----------

From: Brian Holton <ctbah at polyu.edu.hk>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.05 (05) [E]

I've just had a squint at the Scots Thesaurus (Scottish National Dictionary
Association: Aberdeen, 1990), where i see pp42-45 are devoted to
topographical  vocabulary. Well worth a look, as is  the CASD/DoST site at
http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/, where you can enter "hill" or "mountain" and
search for all occurences in definitions - which pretty much gives you and
English-Scots dictionary, too.

brian

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul  7 14:42:22 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 07:42:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.07 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUL.2004.074222.0700.>

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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.06 (02) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Idiomatica
>
> Folks,
>
> With regard to words for "hill" and "mountain" we have been discussing
> under
> "Lexicon" and "Etymology" I ought to mention that in many Lowlands
> Saxon
> (Low German) dialects, certainly those in the Northern range, _barg_
> [ba:x]
> 'hill/mountain' is frequently used to denote 'many' or 'much', much
> like
> English 'a bunch of'.  This is not necessarily used with nouns that
> denote
> items that can be heaped up.
>
> The usual way of using it is with _'n_ (or "formally" _eyn_) 'a', but
> in
> some dialects you can omit this; thus for example
>
> _('n) barg böyker_ 'many books'*
> _('n) barg minschen_ 'lots of people'
> _('n) barg saken_ 'many matters', 'many things'
> _('n) barg tüyg_ 'a lot of fabric', 'lots of clothes'
> _('n) barg tüynkraam_ 'a bunch of nonsense'
> _('n) barg spraken_ 'many languages'
> _('n) barg arbayd_ 'loads of work'
>
> * different from _'n stapel böyker_ 'a stack of books'
>
> However, there seem to be some restrictions of use.  It does not work
> with
> most uncountable nouns, in which case the first choice would be _veel_
> [fe:l] ~ [fE:l] 'much', 'many'; for instance
>
> _veel water_ 'much water', 'a lot of water' (not *_('n) barg water_)
> _veel sand_ 'a lot of sand' (vs _('n) barg sand_ 'a mound/heap of
> sand')
>
> This includes most temporal expressions; for instance
>
> _veel tyd_ 'a lot of time' (not *_('n) barg tyd_)
> _veel~vele daag'_ 'many days' (not *('n) barg daag'_)
> _veel ogenblikken_ 'many moments' (_('n) barg ogenblikken_?)
>
> But the following sound somewhat acceptable to me:
>
> _('n) barg jaren_ ~ _veel jaren_ 'many years'
> _('n) barg maanden_ ~ _veel maanden_ 'many months'
> _('n) barg weken_ ~ _veel weken_ 'many years'
> _('n) barg jaarhunderden~ewen_ ~ _veel jaren~ewen_ 'many centuries'
>
> Perhaps this is because these are definitely countable.
>
> _('n) barg ogenblikken_ 'many moments' sounds marginal to me but may
> be all
> right.
>
> Theoretically, this _('n) barg_ ought not work with _arbayd_ 'work'
> mentioned above, but I guess _('n) barg arbayd_ implies the sense of
> countable jobs.
>
> Incidentally, _veel_ can be used with all countable nouns as well;
> e.g.,
> _veel böyker_ 'many books', etc.
>
> I believe there are similar devices in the dialects of Eastern
> Friesland,
> using _bült_ 'hill', 'mound'.  Is that correct?
>
> How about similar expressions in other Lowlands varieties?
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron
Hi Ron,
To denote "many" or "much" in Flemish we use the following  words...
veel/vele
veel tijd, veel goeste, vele verdragen, veel kinders, ...
vele vele jaren

bergen
bergen werk, ne berg problem'...

hoop, hopen
hopen werk, nen hoôp volk, nen hoôp problem',...
(hoôp= E: a bunch of... / hoop= E: hope)

zee
'n zeê van tijd,

zonder ende/einde
een wandelinge zonder ende, ne speech zonder ende

een mondje = een beetje (=E: some)
Ik spreek al een mondje Frans

groetjes
luc vanbrabant
oekene

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul  7 16:00:54 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 09:00:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.07 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUL.2004.090054.0700.>

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From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.06 (07) [E]

I've found in 'The Dream of the Rood'
'þæt wæs géara iú   - ic þæt gýta geman
þæt wæs áhéawan  holtes on ende'

where 'on ende' is glossed as 'from the edge' .

Since 'on end'  means 'consecutively' I think 'many years on end' in the
sense of one year from the edge of the previous year  could quite easily
evolved to mean 'many consecutive years'

David Barrow

>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Etymology
>
>Sandy listed the following Scots phrases under "Idiomatica":
>
>>years on end: 'many years'
>>months on end: 'many months'
>>weeks on end: 'many weeks'
>>days on end: 'many days'
>>oors on end: 'many hours'
>
>Of course, "on end" in this sense is used in English as well, probably
>denoting "an endless string of" or "endless" originally.
>
>I often think about this and wonder if this "on" is unrelated to the usual
>word "on," if it is related to Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _aan_ and German
>_ohne_, meaning 'without'.  In LS you can say _aan end_ also, meaning
>"without end," 'endless(ly)', German _endlos_ (also _ohne Ende_).
>
>Of course, then this particular "on end" would have a different origin from
>that of "on end" as in "My hair(s) stood at end."
>
>I can find nothing in etymological notes and in Old English that would
>support this.  However, "on end" in the sense of "without end" seems a bit
>strange, doesn't it?
>
>Regards,
>Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.06 (09) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Ah!  Thanks, Gavin!  You made my penny drop.  ;-)
>
> Old English has _wan_ 'lacking' (= 'without'), and _wana_ 'lack', and I
> assume "want" (_wan+t_ "lack"/"absence" > "need") is related to these.
>
> Modern Lowlands Saxon (Low German) has for instance _wanschapen_
> ['va.nSQ:pm] for 'ugly'.  (I take it that this _schapen_ is related to
> 'create' and in this case refers to 'proper/pleasing form'.)
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron
Hi Ron,
In Dutch we also have  words left  with  "wan-"
wanbesef / wanhof / wandaad / wangeboorte / wansucces / wanvoeding /
wanhoop...
and several more.
groetjes
luc vanbrabant
oekene

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks a lot for your interesting points above, David and Luc!

David, under "Lexicon" you wrote today:

> For me because of  my surname all this talk about mountain terms is very
> interesting :-)
>
> Even if it has been semantically demoted

Perhaps it consoles you that Gothic _bairgz_, Old Norse _berg_ ~ _bjarg_,
English (_beorƽ_ >) "barrow" (~ "bargh" ~ "barf"), W. Frisian (/berg/)
_berch_, Lowlands Saxon (_berg_ >) _barg_, Low Franconian _berg_, German
_Berg_, etc. for 'mountain' and 'hill' raises fascinating etymological
questions, taking us all over the Indo-European map.  Here just a snippet or
two.

These tend to be seen as linked with Celtic: Old Irish _brigh_ 'mountain'
(and I wonder about Scottish Gaelic _brìg_ 'heap', 'pile', even though
Alexander McBain links it with English "brick").

Furthermore, there seem to be links with Slavonic; e.g., Old Slavonic
_brĕgŭ_ 'height', 'mountain' (i.e., "elevated place"), also Russian _bereg_
берег, Ukrainian _bereg_ берег, Czech _břeh_, Polish _brzeg_, Bulgarian
_brjag_ бряг, etc., 'bank', 'shore' (i.e., "rising/raised ground").

Going even farther afield, there is the reconstructed (Indo-)Aryan word
*_bhergh_ 'height'.  Sanskrit _br'hant_ 'high' tends to be shown as
connected with it and "barrow" etc.  I am tempted to go as far as linking it
with the Sanskrit root _bhar-_ 'to bear', 'to lift', 'to raise', 'to carry',
and the extension _bharat_ 'bearing', 'carrying', 'lifting', 'that which
bears' > 'India', probably also with Germanic *_ber-_ > English (_beran_ >)
"to bear," Gothic _bairan_, and Indo-Iranian: Persian (Farsi) _bordan_ بردن,
(< /bur-/), etc., all in the sense of 'to bear', and numerous derivatives
denoting 'to bear/carry/behave oneself', 'to give birth' and 'to be born'.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul  7 20:39:42 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 13:39:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2004.07.07 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUL.2004.133942.0700.>

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From: jkrause <jkrause at old-sod-shanty.com>
Subject: Grammar

Ron wrote
> When polite pronouns where used before the 20th century (which was
reserved
> to addressing a small number of "higher-ups") it was _Jy_ (with the
> predictable objective form _Ju_, see above).

You know, in my albeit limited experience of hearing my ancestral
Plautdietsch used in conversation, I don't believe I've ever heard the
polite forms Jy (Jie) Jum (Jün) used at all.  This is understandable
considering that when Low German was used at all, it was used among close
friends and among family, or later private conversations between husband and
wife.  If folk wanted to be formal, they switched to German, as during
worship services in church, or English.

Jim Krause

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul  7 20:42:09 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 13:42:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.07 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUL.2004.134209.0700.>

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From: jkrause <jkrause at old-sod-shanty.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Dear Ron,
    Your discussion on the use of the word _barg_ (Boajch in Mennonite
Plautdietsch) reminds me of the colloquial use of the English word heap; as
in
a heap of books
a heap of trouble

Jim Krause

----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.07 (01) [E]

Dear Tom,

Subject: Lexicon

You Patriot, you!

> Well consider yourself lucky to live after the ice age when the glaciers
> rounded down the Scottish mountains which were then higher than the Alps.

By the way, do you use the word coom or comb or something like it (Welsh
Cwm) in Scots?
I ask because it is used in Afrikaans (kom - kommetjie) for a short, broad
or hanging valley, of which we have very few (no glacial geomorphology). I
have no idea how it came here; certainly not through the English.
Another use, excuse the frank inclination of my tongue, is for the aptly
named 'kommetjiegat jakkals', a form of jackal unendowed with buttocks, but
instead a broad shallow crater with the anus nestled in the middle.

Regards, Mark

P.S. We had the Dwyka formation, & of course, Antarctic glaciation ground
better than any Arctic variety, & earlier. So there!

Dear Marco,

Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" >
> Zeelandic has the words 'berg' (pronounciation mostly 'barg') and '(h)il'.
> 'Berg' is used for almost every bump in the landscape, but is used
> particularly for artificial mouds that were erected as a safe have during
> floodings and (viking) raids in the 10th-13th century. Some of them have
> eroded and are only 50cm high now, others have changed very little and
still
> have their original, impressive dimensions (usually between 20 and 30
meters
> in diameter, 2-12 meters high) and are a very characteristic feature in
the
> landscape of some parts of Zeeland. On the isle of Walcheren, about 20 of
> these 'bergen' still exist.

> On the isle of Goeree-Overflakkee, a 'hil' is one of the words for a farm.
I
> bet this goes back to the days when houses, farmhouses, etc. where built
on
> a mound for protection against floodings.

In our family the word for these artificial mounds is 'terp - terpen'
Is there nothing in a Lowlands Language covering this word?

Yrs,
Mark

Dear Glen

Subject: Lexicon

> The word 'haugh(s)'

I have read the word, but I dare not try to pronounce it.
For this reason alone, I presume it might have some association with  the
Afrikaans 'hoewe = agricultural holding - allotment' & 'hof = courtyard -
garden'?

Yrs,
Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul  7 20:44:08 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 13:44:08 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.07 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUL.2004.134408.0700.>

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.07 (03) [E]

Dear David

 Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

> I've found in 'The Dream of the Rood'
> 'þæt wæs géara iú   - ic þæt gýta geman
> þæt wæs áhéawan  holtes on ende'
>
> where 'on ende' is glossed as 'from the edge' .

Well, I don't altogether agree with that gloss
Going strictly with Afrikaans I would read it as 'oneindig = unending or
endlessly, without end'
I read the 'on' as meaning 'un' or without.

Yrs Sincerely,
Mark

----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.06 (09) [E]

Dear Gavin

 Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

> Scots of course has its own privative prefix wan-, as in wanhowp,
wanchance,
> etc.  I don't think it's used productively any more, except perhaps by
Scots
> who know German ohn- and wish to create a reformed anti-Latinate language.

I believe you are wrong, & that it is fundamental to your old language. It,
or the cognate 'waan' is still a necessary tool in Afrikaans.

Waan = fancy, delusion, idolum (logic), hallucination, conceit, error.
as in: Gewaan = fancy, waanbeeld = fantasy, delusion, waandenkbeeld = false
notion, waangeloof = superstition, waanhoop = despair, waansin = insanity
(that old one), waanvoorstelling = hallucination, waanwys = conceited.

On the other hand, 'wan', as a prefix simply meaning 'without' (as I take it
in Old English & Old Northumbrian) takes simply pages of the dictionary,
from:

'Wanaangepas = maladjusted (the psychological condition - again)', through
'wanhoop = desparation', to 'wantrouheid = distrustfulness'.

I do remember C S Lewis using the word 'wanhope' in context, but such a
scholar would have more & older words in his working vocab than most of us.

Yrs Sincerely,
Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul  7 21:11:31 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 14:11:31 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Name the language" 2004.07.07 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUL.2004.141131.0700.>

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From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.07 (03) [E]

I've been asked for an authoritative (!) pronunciation guide for a
charity which is producing an audioversion of a work by J.R.R. Tolkien.
The elvish isn't a problem ... mooreeffoc is a bit challenging ... but I
have my own opinion.

However, one of the phrases I just don't remember from the work.  Can
anyone spot the language?  And provide a pronunciation?

twe tusend Johr

With best wishes,

Pat
--
Pat Reynolds
pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk
   "It might look a bit messy now,
                    but just you come back in 500 years time"
   (T. Pratchett)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Name the language

Hey, Pat!

> twe tusend Johr

If it were _twe dusend Johr_ it would be "perfect" Lowlands Saxon (Low
German), North Saxon dialect, with German-based spelling (for my _twey
dusend jaar_) meaning 'two thousand years'.

The pronunciation is [tvE.I du:znt 'j@:3`], if you rely on (non-rhotic)
English approximation: "tvey dooznt yawr" (or far-Northern dialects "tvey
dooznt jawr" -- "tvey dooznt yaw" or "tvey dooznt jaw" being close enough
for most of our Irish and North American friends), Dutch-based spelling
_twei doeznt (d)joar_.

Now, rather than believing that this is a Lowlands Saxon loan phrase in
Elvish ;-) I assume that Tolkien read the Lowlands Saxon story _Von dem
Machandelboom_ ("(About) the Juniper Tree") in the "German" original in the
Grimm Brothers' collection
(e.g., http://home.t-online.de/home/rudolf-steiner/machandl.htm) and,
probably influenced by his knowledge of German (_tausend_ 'thousand') or
being influenced by the spelling of English "thousand," he got the second
word a tad incorrect.

The story begins:
"Dat is nu all lang heer, wol twe dusend Johr ..."

My spelling:
"Dat is nu al lang her, wol twey dusend jaar ..."

In German translation:
"Das ist nun sehr lange her, wohl zweitausend Jahre ..."
(Should be "Das ist nun SCHON lange her, wohl zweitausend Jahre ...")

In English translation:
"Long, long ago, some two thousand years or so ..."
(Should be literally "This/It is now a long time ago already, probably two
thousand years ...")

I hope this helped.

Cheerio!
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul  8 14:33:13 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:33:13 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Name the language" 2004.07.01 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUL.2004.073313.0700.>

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From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Name the Language" 2004.07.07


Hi Lowlanders!

Here I go inserting my proboscis dilettantis into fine distinctions I know
little about:

Pat Reynolds asked a fascinating question about the J.R.R. Tolkien usage of

> twe tusend Johr<

to which Ron Hahn responded that, were the initial consonent of the second
word voiced, i.e., "d" instead of "t", it would be perfect Lower Saxon.

I have no doubt that Ron is Right as Rain (or Ragnarok). However, while
living in Stade, Niederelbe, I attended weekly meetings of the local Platt
club, and they occasionally published articles in Lower Saxon in the
newspapers.

Their word for "thousand" was indeed "tusend" with an unvoiced initial
consonent.
They were, or are, indeed aware that the entire Altes Land voices the first
letter, thus "dusend". Stade, it was speculated, was owned by the Swedes
during most of the Thirty Years' War, hence the Swedish "tusen" may have
intruded via superstrate influence.

In fact, there still seem to be significant variances of pronunciation
across the Lower Elbe behind the dikes; Buxtehude and Cuxhaven are as
different, to my uneducated ear, as Philadelphia is to Richmond. But, once
again, I am a rank amateur.

I am preparing a paper about Appalachian, and will post the first draft here
before proceeding further. As to British lowlands (Southeastern) origins,
that is correct. As to Ulster elements as well, correct again.

Beste Groeten,

Arthur Jones
arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com

----------

From: ezinsser at tiscali.co.za <ezinsser at tiscali.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Name the language" 2004.07.07 (07) [E]

Hi julle,

Pat Reynolds asked about the language that Tolkien used.
If you ask me, the guy used good ole' Bloemfontein Afrikaans
and merely changed the spelling to look exotically Elvish.

> twe tusend Johr

Is merely 'twee duisend jaar' and pronounced [twe: d at is@nt j:ar]

Tata!
Elsie Zinsser

----------

From: Szelog, Mike <Mike.Szelog at citizensbank.com>
Subject: LL-L "Name the language" 2004.07.07 (07) [E]

Hi Pat and all,

Excellent answer as always, Ron!

I believe the language Tolkien uses this phrase in is the one spoken by the
Rohirim (sp!). They are the people with the horses from whom Gandalf obtains
"Shadowfax" (again, if I remember correctly - it's been a while since I've
actually read the books).

These people Tolkien loosely bases on Germanic/Scandinavian traditions and I
believe the language they speak is based somewhat on Anglo-Saxon with other
elements of Germanic languages. I believe it's also the one that's written
in "Angerthas" runes.

Mike S
Manchester, NH

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.07 (03) [E]

I've been asked for an authoritative (!) pronunciation guide for a
charity which is producing an audioversion of a work by J.R.R. Tolkien.
The elvish isn't a problem ... mooreeffoc is a bit challenging ... but I
have my own opinion.

However, one of the phrases I just don't remember from the work.  Can
anyone spot the language?  And provide a pronunciation?

twe tusend Johr

With best wishes,

Pat
--
Pat Reynolds
pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk
   "It might look a bit messy now,
                    but just you come back in 500 years time"
   (T. Pratchett)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Name the language

Hey, Pat!

> twe tusend Johr

If it were _twe dusend Johr_ it would be "perfect" Lowlands Saxon (Low
German), North Saxon dialect, with German-based spelling (for my _twey
dusend jaar_) meaning 'two thousand years'.

The pronunciation is [tvE.I du:znt 'j@:3`], if you rely on (non-rhotic)
English approximation: "tvey dooznt yawr" (or far-Northern dialects "tvey
dooznt jawr" -- "tvey dooznt yaw" or "tvey dooznt jaw" being close enough
for most of our Irish and North American friends), Dutch-based spelling
_twei doeznt (d)joar_.

Now, rather than believing that this is a Lowlands Saxon loan phrase in
Elvish ;-) I assume that Tolkien read the Lowlands Saxon story _Von dem
Machandelboom_ ("(About) the Juniper Tree") in the "German" original in the
Grimm Brothers' collection
(e.g., http://home.t-online.de/home/rudolf-steiner/machandl.htm) and,
probably influenced by his knowledge of German (_tausend_ 'thousand') or
being influenced by the spelling of English "thousand," he got the second
word a tad incorrect.

The story begins:
"Dat is nu all lang heer, wol twe dusend Johr ..."

My spelling:
"Dat is nu al lang her, wol twey dusend jaar ..."

In German translation:
"Das ist nun sehr lange her, wohl zweitausend Jahre ..."
(Should be "Das ist nun SCHON lange her, wohl zweitausend Jahre ...")

In English translation:
"Long, long ago, some two thousand years or so ..."
(Should be literally "This/It is now a long time ago already, probably two
thousand years ...")

I hope this helped.

Cheerio!
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Name the language" 2004.07.07 (07) [E]

That helpped a great deal!

Twe dusend thanks (to mingle languages/dialects!)

The context has given me a clue as to where in the book (The Tolkien
Reader) the phrase might be used ('On Fairy Stories') - and, indeed, it
is in a paragraph referring to the Grimm version of 'The Juniper Tree'.

Pat
--
Pat Reynolds
pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk
   "It might look a bit messy now,
                    but just you come back in 500 years time"
   (T. Pratchett)

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul  8 14:35:02 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:35:02 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2004.07.01 (02) [A]
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUL.2004.073502.0700.>

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2004.07.05 (08) [A]

Beste Ron,

Subject: Orthography

> > > Wil u aub hieroor uitbrei, Ron? Mynsinsiens het elke konsonant
>>> noodwendig 'n "default" schwa: dit moet mos uitgespreek word, nê?

Ek sal nie u inset herhaal nie; die wat belang stel het seker soos ek dit
gestoor het. Dankie.
Ek het bra min om by te voeg. u Besef seker lankal u kan dieper in die
onderwerp in waad as die meeste van ons kan swem!

Die Uwe,
Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul  8 14:41:38 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:41:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2004.07.01 (03) [D]
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUL.2004.074138.0700.>

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From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2004.07.06 (10) [D/E]

Hallo Henno,

In mijn vorige posting vermelddeik het geval van de jongedame die een
probleem had met de spelling van 'gij hadt'. De reden voor haar
onzekerheid/onwetendheid dient wellicht gezocht te worden in het feit
dat, naar ik vermoed,  de ge/gij-vormen en de bijbehorende
werkwoordsvormen in het onderwijs niet meer onderwezen worden en dat
enkel je/jij aangeleerd wordt. Daarbij wordt over het hoofd gezien dat
ge/gij in Vlaanderen nog springlevend zijn. Ik meen te mogen stellen dat
meer dan 95 % van de Vlamingen in ongedwongen taalgebruik onder vrienden
enkel ge/gij gebruiken. Alleen in toespraken wordt vrij algemeen
overgeschakeld naar je.  Hetzelfde verschijnsel merken we op in
interviews die politici toestaan: bijna uitsluitend maken ze gebruik van
'je' als onbepaald voornaamwoord. Mijns inziens is er in Vlaanderen een
grote passieve tolerantie gegroeid ten opzichte van 'je'. Opvallend is
echter dat de beklemtoonde vorm 'jij' haast systematisch vermeden wordt.
Tegenover de beklemtoonde objectvorm 'jou' bestaat helemaal een
duidelijke aversie. Het woord is vrijwel onbestaand in algemeen Belgisch
Nederlands. Dat leidt er dan toe dat in dergelijke situaties
overgeschakeld wordt naar 'u', de normale objectvorm bij 'gij'. Op die
manier worden helaas twee systemen door elkaar gehaspeld.

Hartelijk,

Roger

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul  8 14:43:06 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:43:06 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.01 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUL.2004.074306.0700.>

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From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Lexicon [E/N/A]

Mark,

'Haugh', I think, is pronounced like your 'hof' but
there again I'm no linguist! Interesting, there seem
to be some similarities between the languages.

Another topograpical term  in my part of the world is
'hoe', as in my home town Prudhoe 'the hill or
heights' of Prudda's people or it could mean 'Proud'
(Prood in Northumbrian) heights'. Hoe is normally an
elevation on a spur of a river apparently.

Keep ahaad,
Glenn

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul  8 14:51:24 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:51:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.01 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUL.2004.075124.0700.>

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From: Gavin Falconer <Gavin.Falconer at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.07 (06) [E]

Mark said:

"I believe you are wrong, & that it is fundamental to your old language. It,
or the cognate 'waan' is still a necessary tool in Afrikaans."

It depends how old the language is.  It would be conceivable for a person to
have a fairly good knowledge of modern Scots without ever having encountered
wan-, except perhaps in wanchancie (I hope I don't offend anyone with my low
standards).  I always assumed that most wan- words started out as nouns from
which adjectives were sometimes derived whereas the un- words were mainly
negations of adjectives.  Perhaps I'm being influenced by my knowledge of
German here, in which case A'll awa dree ma wanweird.  Ill- or mis- would be
much more indispensible elements in Scots.

According to the DSL at http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/, wan- ceased to be
productive in word formation except in Scots and Northern English after the
Middle English period, and I suspect that Scots simply followed suit after a
delay, with it falling together with un- in many cases.

The number of Afrikaans and German words using the element could be to do
with their lack of direct Latinate loans (as opposed to calques) and
creation of abstract concepts using native elements, which brings me back to
my original point.  It wouldn't surprise me in the least if someone such as
Hately Waddell had coined a few words with wan-, but if one represents Scots
as the hybrid Latinised Germanic language that it is rather than reforms it
so that it's a purely Germanic one, there's no need for the like.

--
All the best,

Gavin

Gavin Falconer

"Tharfor wordly happe es ay in dout
Whilles dam fortune turnes hir whele about."

----------

From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.07 (06) [E]

Re: on end

I had always thought it mean something along the lines of "end to end."  For
example, "He reads mystery novels for hours on end."  I'm visualizing
several hours lined up end "on end" (one after the other) with the meaning
of "consecutively."

Mark Brooks

----------

From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.07 (06) [E]

>From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.07 (03) [E]
>
>Dear David
>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology"
>
>>I've found in 'The Dream of the Rood'
>>'þæt wæs géara iú   - ic þæt gýta geman
>>þæt wæs áhéawan  holtes on ende'
>>
>>where 'on ende' is glossed as 'from the edge' .
>
>Well, I don't altogether agree with that gloss
>Going strictly with Afrikaans I would read it as 'oneindig = unending or
>endlessly, without end'
>I read the 'on' as meaning 'un' or without.
>
>Yrs Sincerely,
>Mark
>
>----------
>
Mark,

My English is pretty basic but I've added a few previous lines and tried
a rough translation

...........................   Hælendes tréow,
........................   Saviour's tree (cross)
oþ þæt ic gehýrde   þæt hit hléoðrode     until I heard        that it spoke
ongan þá word sprecan   wudu  sélesta   began then words to speak:
best of woods
þæt wæs géara iú - ic þæt gýta geman     that was years ago - I still
remember that-
þæt ic wæs áhéawan holtes on ende'       that I was hewn down  from the
forest's edge

However don't take my word for it. I got the gloss for 'on ende' from
Mitchell and Robinson's A Guide to Old English.

And here's an interlinear translation

http://www.flsouthern.edu/eng/abruce/rood/ROODTEXT/ALL%7E1.HTM

see lines 25 to 29

David Barrow

----------

From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.07 (03) [E]

>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Etymology
>
>Thanks a lot for your interesting points above, David and Luc!
>
>David, under "Lexicon" you wrote today:
>
>>For me because of  my surname all this talk about mountain terms is very
>>interesting :-)
>>
>>Even if it has been semantically demoted
>
>Perhaps it consoles you that Gothic _bairgz_, Old Norse _berg_ ~ _bjarg_,
>English (_beorƽ_ >) "barrow" (~ "bargh" ~ "barf"), W. Frisian (/berg/)
>_berch_, Lowlands Saxon (_berg_ >) _barg_, Low Franconian _berg_, German
>_Berg_, etc. for 'mountain' and 'hill' raises fascinating etymological
>questions, taking us all over the Indo-European map.  Here just a snippet
or
>two.
>
>These tend to be seen as linked with Celtic: Old Irish _brigh_ 'mountain'
>(and I wonder about Scottish Gaelic _brìg_ 'heap', 'pile', even though
>Alexander McBain links it with English "brick").
>
>Furthermore, there seem to be links with Slavonic; e.g., Old Slavonic
>_brĕgŭ_ 'height', 'mountain' (i.e., "elevated place"), also Russian _bereg_
>берег, Ukrainian _bereg_ берег, Czech _břeh_, Polish _brzeg_, Bulgarian
>_brjag_ бряг, etc., 'bank', 'shore' (i.e., "rising/raised ground").
>
>Going even farther afield, there is the reconstructed (Indo-)Aryan word
>*_bhergh_ 'height'.  Sanskrit _br'hant_ 'high' tends to be shown as
>connected with it and "barrow" etc.  I am tempted to go as far as linking
it
>with the Sanskrit root _bhar-_ 'to bear', 'to lift', 'to raise', 'to
carry',
>and the extension _bharat_ 'bearing', 'carrying', 'lifting', 'that which
>bears' > 'India', probably also with Germanic *_ber-_ > English (_beran_ >)
>"to bear," Gothic _bairan_, and Indo-Iranian: Persian (Farsi) _bordan_
بردن,
>(< /bur-/), etc., all in the sense of 'to bear', and numerous derivatives
>denoting 'to bear/carry/behave oneself', 'to give birth' and 'to be born'.
>
>Regards,
>Reinhard/Ron
>
Ron

'bear' = carry from OE 'beran' from IE  *_bher ; 'barrow' = mountain
from IE *_bhergh. Some common earlier root linking them  under the theme
of 'elevation'? Which would be interesting as there is another 'barrow'
(as in wheelbarrow) from OE *bearwe from OE 'beran' from  IE *_bher. You
could say things have come full circle. :-)

David Barrow

----------

From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.07 (03) [E]

A point I should have included in my message below about 'on end'
Neither of the two dictionaries where I found the expression has it as
meaning 'without end'  One says 'consecutively' and the other
continuously without pause
(between one day/year/whatever and the next). Neither of these
definitions necessarily implies 'non-stop'

'Susan used to disappear for days on end. Nobody knew where she went'

The idea of 'without end' is perhaps a more recent semantic development

David Barrow

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul  8 22:13:14 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:13:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Name the language" 2004.07.01 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUL.2004.151314.0700.>

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Name the language" 2004.07.01 (01) [E]

Hi Everybody,

 Subject: LL-L "Name the language"

> Pat Reynolds asked about the language that Tolkien used.
> If you ask me, the guy used good ole' Bloemfontein Afrikaans
> and merely changed the spelling to look exotically Elvish.
>
> > twe tusend Johr
>
> Is merely 'twee duisend jaar' and pronounced [twe: d at is@nt j:ar]

>If it wasn't for the extraordinary breadth of Tolkien's Learning, I would
go straight for Elsie Zinsser's
interpretation. He couldn't use the Afrikaans orthography, since that would
lead the English reader to pronounce it  'twi: daiz at nde djo:h' - Eina!

Otherwise, I wouldn't challange the thesis that he used these exact words
because he read those exact words (& studied them) in Grimm. This was his
way.

This phrase (if he didn't use it again elsewhere) is quoted from his essay
'Tree & Leaf' in a paragraph discussing the impact of the 'Old' in
fairytales, & expanding on the "--- beauty & horror of 'The Juniper Tree
(Von dem Machandelbloom) ---" & it's impact on him. It is abundently clear
that this tale is not couched in Standard German.

By the way: His Elvish 'Middle Earth' was not the only fields of his
wandering. He most likely never used the 'Elvish' or 'Middle Earth' mode
outside of those writings dedicated to them; not even 'Smith of Wootton
Major'.

Yrs,
Mark

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Name the language

Mark,

You wrote above:

> This phrase (if he didn't use it again elsewhere) is quoted from his essay
> 'Tree & Leaf' in a paragraph discussing the impact of the 'Old' in
> fairytales, & expanding on the "--- beauty & horror of 'The Juniper Tree
> (Von dem Machandelbloom) ---" & it's impact on him. It is abundently clear
> that this tale is not couched in Standard German.

Far be it from me to nitpick, especially in the case of you gender-deprived,
albeit learned Afrikaans-speaking lot, but that would be _Von de
Machandelbloom_ (my spelling _Von dey machandel-bloum_) "(About) The Juniper
Flower/Blossom" (feminine), rather than the original _Von dem Machandelboom_
(my spelling _Von dem machandel-boum_) "(About) The Juniper Tree"
(masculine).

What a difference a slip of the key can make!

Poking fun aside, the objective masculine form _dem_ is no longer used in
the majority of today's dialects.  It's now _den_, _d'n_ or just _'n_ (the
latter directly attached to the preceding word, _von'n_ ~ _vun'n_ ~ _van'n_,
because _von 'n_ would be "of/from a").  I write it _d'n_ to distinguish it
from indefinite (_eyn_ >) _'n_ [n], because initial /d/ regularly
assimilated to a preceding consonant, as also in many Afrikaans dialects;
e.g., _van die_ -> _vannie_, Lowlands Saxon (Low German) (fem.) _von dey_ ->
_vonney_ ['fOnEI] ~ _vonne_ ['fOne], (neut.) _von dat_ -> _vonnat_ ['fOnat]
~ _von't_ [fO.nt], (masc.) _von den_ -> _vonnen_ -> _von'n_ [fO.n:].

Consequently, _machandel_ 'juniper' is pronounced _machannel_ (or _machanl_)
in most dialects of today, and in my spelling it's all right to write it
_machannel_.

Elsie wrote:

> If you ask me, the guy used good ole' Bloemfontein Afrikaans
> and merely changed the spelling to look exotically Elvish.

Yep!  Goes to show you just how similar some of those Lowlands varieties can
be to each other, especially if you write them more alike.  {Hint, hint,
blink, blink ...}

A LS speaker has no problem understanding Afrikaans _twee duisend jaar_,
certainly not in writing.

Greutn oen koemplmentn,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul  8 22:15:44 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:15:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.01 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUL.2004.151544.0700.>

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Etymology

Beste Ron,


Re "on end", I'd like to add that in Dutch you could say "aan een stuk".
"Hij kon praten, uren aan een stuk". "Zij kon
uitgaan, dagen aan een stuk", which has evolved from "aan één stuk", meaning
without interruption. Time is here viewed as an
interval, litterally comprising "one piece", having only a starting and
ending point, with no discontinuity.

Maybe "on end" reflects the idea that the next time period starts
immediately when the previous one has ended, so there is no
interruption. A bit like elephants in a circus, each one holding the tail of
his predecessor with his own trunk. So "hours on
end", is a set of hours, each individual hour piled on top of the previous
one...making both ends meet, so to speak *s*.

Kind greetings,


Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.01 (05) [E]

'on' as meaning 'un' or without.
>>
>>Yrs Sincerely,
>>Mark
>>
>>----------
>
>Mark,
>
>My English is pretty basic but I've added a few previous lines and tried
>a rough translation
>
That should say my Old English is pretty basic

David Barrow

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul  8 22:29:43 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:29:43 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.01 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUL.2004.152943.0700.>

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From: Stella en Henno <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.07 (05) [E]

> > On the isle of Goeree-Overflakkee, a 'hil' is one of the words for a
farm.
> I
> > bet this goes back to the days when houses, farmhouses, etc. where built
> on
> > a mound for protection against floodings.
>
> In our family the word for these artificial mounds is 'terp - terpen'
> Is there nothing in a Lowlands Language covering this word?
>
> Yrs,
> Mark

To get to the word "terp": this actually doesn't mean "hill" or "artificial
mount" originally, although
it has come to mean this in Dutch, eg.
The word comes from Old Frisian, where "terp" is the regular development of
a Germanic
stem *thurpi, from which also derives Dutch "dorp", German "Dorf", older
English -thorp (in place names only nowadays, maybe in dialects as well?)
etc, = "village". this is probably due to the fact that in Frisian areas a
village had such a mount with a church on it, very prominently in its
centre. So the mount came to be known as "village". In modern West Frisian
we even borrowed the Dutch word "dorp" (as doarp [dwarp]), and only use
"terp" in the artificial mount meaning only.
In North Frisian the word is still used (saarep/taarep on Amrum/Feer resp.
eg.) in the village meaning.

Regards,

Henno Brandsma

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Good one, as usual, Henno!

> The word comes from Old Frisian, where "terp" is the regular development
of
> a Germanic
> stem *thurpi, from which also derives Dutch "dorp", German "Dorf", older
> English -thorp (in place names only nowadays, maybe in dialects as well?)
> etc, = "village". this is probably due to the fact that in Frisian areas a
> village had such a mount with a church on it, very prominently in its
> centre. So the mount came to be known as "village". In modern West Frisian
> we even borrowed the Dutch word "dorp" (as doarp [dwarp]), and only use
> "terp" in the artificial mount meaning only.

In most Lowlands Saxon (Low German) dialects of the North it's _dörp_,
though some have _dorp_.

In Denmark and in the partly Jutish-speaking (nowadays Danish-speaking) and
partly LS-speaking (and now German-speaking) areas of Germany you find place
place names ending with _-torp_ or (metathesized) _(s)trup_, _-drup_ and
_-rup_; e.g., Brædstrup, Vamdrup, Otterup, Dollerup, Hörup, Sörup, Wanderup.

There's also metatheized _-throp_ in England.

> In North Frisian the word is still used (saarep/taarep on Amrum/Feer resp.
> eg.) in the village meaning.

th (þ) > North Frisian /s/

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul  9 14:27:01 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 07:27:01 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.09 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUL.2004.072701.0700.>

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L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.01 (05) [E]

Dear Gavin Falconer

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.07 (06) [E]

> According to the DSL at http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/, wan- ceased to be
> productive in word formation except in Scots and Northern English after
the
> Middle English period, and I suspect that Scots simply followed suit after
a
> delay, with it falling together with un- in many cases.

> The number of Afrikaans and German words using the element could be to do
> with their lack of direct Latinate loans (as opposed to calques) and
> creation of abstract concepts using native elements, which brings me back
to
> my original point.  It wouldn't surprise me in the least if someone such
as
> Hately Waddell had coined a few words with wan-, but if one represents
Scots
> as the hybrid Latinised Germanic language that it is rather than reforms
it
> so that it's a purely Germanic one, there's no need for the like.

Thanks for that. Mind you, it is largely the Germanic elements of Scots that
so attract me!

Yrs,

Mark

Dear Mark Brooks

Subject: LL-L "Etymology"
Re: on end

> I had always thought it mean something along the lines of "end to end."
For
> example, "He reads mystery novels for hours on end."  I'm visualizing
> several hours lined up end "on end" (one after the other) with the meaning
> of "consecutively."

Yes; what tickles me is the figure of speech - why it was phrased that way.
For instance, a Korean who had got rather far in English without ever
speaking to an English-speaker shared this problem with me: As he understood
it, 'end' is a terminus - OK, how can it go with 'end-less'? Surely 'on end'
means it stops!

Eventually I got him around to our way of thinking, but he had the
expression of one 'over-persuaded that black is white'. I think I had just
betrayed one of his insights into the language.

Yrs Sincerely,
Mark Dreyer

> >>I've found in 'The Dream of the Rood'
> >>'þæt wæs géara iú   - ic þæt gýta geman
> >>þæt wæs áhéawan  holtes on ende'

> >>where 'on ende' is glossed as 'from the edge' .

> >Well, I don't altogether agree with that gloss

> My English is pretty basic but I've added a few previous lines and tried
> a rough translation
>
> ...........................   Hælendes tréow,
> ........................   Saviour's tree (cross)
> oþ þæt ic gehýrde   þæt hit hléoðrode     until I heard        that it
spoke
> ongan þá word sprecan   wudu  sélesta   began then words to speak:
> best of woods
> þæt wæs géara iú - ic þæt gýta geman     that was years ago - I still
> remember that-
> þæt ic wæs áhéawan holtes on ende'       that I was hewn down  from the
> forest's edge

> However don't take my word for it. I got the gloss for 'on ende' from
> Mitchell and Robinson's A Guide to Old English.

Apologies to you then, & to them, but I hold with my objection about the
present usage of 'hours on end' meaning an 'extended period'. I would still
look for a structural motivation in earlier language for the phrase 'on end'
to meen 'without end'.

Thanks for the interlinear translation.

Thanks also for the translation. I find great pleasure in doing that too.
Here is the same bit from mine, in Afrikaans.

                        '-----    Heiland se boom
           Toe hoor ek    hoe hyg dit;
    beginne spreek,    die saligste van houd,
  "Jare uitgedagte,    so onthou ek
is ek van die woud    se wand weggekap---" '

Yrs sincerely,
Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul  9 15:09:55 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:09:55 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.09 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUL.2004.080955.0700.>

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From: Liza du Plooy <lizaduplooy at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.06 (02) [E]


Ron wrote:

>The usual way of using it is with _'n_ (or "formally" _eyn_) 'a', but in
>some dialects you can omit this; thus for example
>
>_('n) barg böyker_ 'many books'*
>_('n) barg minschen_ 'lots of people'
>_('n) barg saken_ 'many matters', 'many things'
>_('n) barg tüyg_ 'a lot of fabric', 'lots of clothes'
>_('n) barg tüynkraam_ 'a bunch of nonsense'
>_('n) barg spraken_ 'many languages'
>_('n) barg arbayd_ 'loads of work'
>
>* different from _'n stapel böyker_ 'a stack of books'

I don't know if it's just the way I speak Afrikaans, but I would use "baie"
for nearly every example you gave:

baie boeke
baie mense
baie sake / baie dinge / baie goeters
baie materiaal / baie klere
* 'n spul nonsens
baie tale
baie werk

I wouldn't not hesitate to use "'n berg werk" in the sense of "ek het 'n
berg huiswerk om te doen" (I have a mountain of homework to do).

A stack of books in Afrikaans is also "'n stapel boeke"

>_veel water_ 'much water', 'a lot of water' (not *_('n) barg water_)
>_veel sand_ 'a lot of sand' (vs _('n) barg sand_ 'a mound/heap of sand')

I'd say
baie water
'n hoop sand

>How about similar expressions in other Lowlands varieties?

Not quite the same thing, but I thought these might be of interest while we
are on the subject of expression incorporating mountains/hills. I looked in
my 1961 edition of the "Afrikaanse Spreekwoordeboek en die Engelse
Ekwivalent" by Kritzinger, de Villiers and Pienaar and found these:

'n Berg van 'n molshoop maak: Baie oordryf: To make mountains out of
mole-hills.
As die berg nie na Mohammed wil kom nie, moet Mohammed na die berg gaan: 'n
Mens moet die mindere wees as 'n ander nie wil toegee nie: If the mountain
won't come to Mohammet, Mahommet must go to the mountain.
Die berg het 'n muis gebaar: Groot dinge is verwag en net iets kleins het
gebeur: The mountain brought forth a mouse.
Sy hare het te berge gerys: Hy het baie groot geskrik: His hair stood on
end.
Iemand goue berge beloof: Iemand die mooiste beloftes maak: To promise the
moon.
Berge versit: Baie uitrig: To move mountains.
And my favourite one (from the old wives tale that babies are little baboons
caught in the mountains and then shaved)
Berge toe gaan: 'n Babetjie ryker word: To be visited by the stork, to have
an addition to the family.

So what I'd like to know is whether other lowlands languages have similar
expression. I'd be very interested to know if any of these are unique to
Afrikaans.

On a personal note, I'd like to share with the list that I have been
accepted to study linguistics at the University of Texas this coming
semester!

Liza du Plooy


----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Liza:


> On a personal note, I'd like to share with the list that I have been
accepted
> to study linguistics at the University of Texas this coming semester!

That's great news, Liza.  Congratulations!  Soon you'll put us all to shame.
:-)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul  9 16:57:38 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:57:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Education" 2004.07.09 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUL.2004.095738.0700.>

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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.09 (02) [E]

Liza said: "I have been accepted > to study linguistics at the
University of Texas this coming semester!"

Excellent!  UT is where I graduated from with a BA in linguistics in
1984.  At the time it was among the top 3-5 schools in the field of
linguistics in the U.S.  But, don't let the year of graduation fool you.  I
didn't start college until I was 25, and I crammed 4 years into 9 ;-).
Congratulations.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Education

Folks,

Talking about education, I think it would be a great idea if we compiled
display lists of programs teaching Lowlands languages to non-native
speakers.  In the case of non-power languages (Scots, Northumbrian, Lowlands
Saxon, Limburgish, Appalachian, etc.) this would be *any* program.  We could
also include (and mark accordingly) any programs that deal with Lowlands
languages and cultures as significant minor components, such as Lowlands
Saxon within Neerlandistics and Germanistics programs, Afrikaans as a major
area in a linguistics program, English dialects within English departments,
Lowlands literature within comparative literature programs, Lowlands history
within history programs, Lowlands arts and architecture within art history
programs, etc.

I frequently receive inquiries about such educational opportunities, so this
is a needed information service.

You could send such information to me (sassisch at yahoo.com), and I will see
to it that it be incorporated in resource lists at our website.

Please include the following information if possible:

1. Names of institution (or web-based course) and department or division
2. Language(s) and/or related discipline(s) taught
3. Number of units/terms
4. Characteristics, structure and types of media
5. Prerequisits
6. Mailing address
7. Email address
8. Website URL

Thanks in advance!
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul  9 20:43:45 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 13:43:45 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.09 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUL.2004.134345.0700.>

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From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.09 (01) [E]

>From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.01 (05) [E]
>
>Dear Gavin Falconer
>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.07 (06) [E]
>
>>According to the DSL at http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/, wan- ceased to be
>>productive in word formation except in Scots and Northern English after
>>
>the
>
>>Middle English period, and I suspect that Scots simply followed suit after
>a
>
>>delay, with it falling together with un- in many cases.
>
>>The number of Afrikaans and German words using the element could be to do
>>with their lack of direct Latinate loans (as opposed to calques) and
>>creation of abstract concepts using native elements, which brings me back
>>
>to
>
>>my original point.  It wouldn't surprise me in the least if someone such
>as
>
>>Hately Waddell had coined a few words with wan-, but if one represents
>>
>Scots
>
>>as the hybrid Latinised Germanic language that it is rather than reforms
>>
>it
>
>>so that it's a purely Germanic one, there's no need for the like.
>
>Thanks for that. Mind you, it is largely the Germanic elements of Scots
that
>so attract me!
>
>Yrs,
>
>Mark
>
>Dear Mark Brooks
>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology"
>Re: on end
>
>>I had always thought it mean something along the lines of "end to end."
>>
>For
>
>>example, "He reads mystery novels for hours on end."  I'm visualizing
>>several hours lined up end "on end" (one after the other) with the meaning
>>of "consecutively."
>
>Yes; what tickles me is the figure of speech - why it was phrased that way.
>For instance, a Korean who had got rather far in English without ever
>speaking to an English-speaker shared this problem with me: As he
understood
>it, 'end' is a terminus - OK, how can it go with 'end-less'? Surely 'on
end'
>means it stops!
>
>Eventually I got him around to our way of thinking, but he had the
>expression of one 'over-persuaded that black is white'. I think I had just
>betrayed one of his insights into the language.
>
>Yrs Sincerely,
>Mark Dreyer
>
>>>>I've found in 'The Dream of the Rood'
>>>>'þæt wæs géara iú   - ic þæt gýta geman
>>>>þæt wæs áhéawan  holtes on ende'
>
>>>>where 'on ende' is glossed as 'from the edge' .
>
>>>Well, I don't altogether agree with that gloss
>
>>My English is pretty basic but I've added a few previous lines and tried
>>a rough translation
>>
>>...........................   Hælendes tréow,
>>........................   Saviour's tree (cross)
>>oþ þæt ic gehýrde   þæt hit hléoðrode     until I heard        that it
>>
>spoke
>
>>ongan þá word sprecan   wudu  sélesta   began then words to speak:
>>best of woods
>>þæt wæs géara iú - ic þæt gýta geman     that was years ago - I still
>>remember that-
>>þæt ic wæs áhéawan holtes on ende'       that I was hewn down  from the
>>forest's edge
>
>>However don't take my word for it. I got the gloss for 'on ende' from
>>Mitchell and Robinson's A Guide to Old English.
>
>Apologies to you then, & to them, but I hold with my objection about the
>present usage of 'hours on end' meaning an 'extended period'. I would still
>look for a structural motivation in earlier language for the phrase 'on
end'
>to meen 'without end'.

The basic idea of days/hours/years etc on end is that there are several
of them with no break from on to the next that is the following one
starts 'from the edge' of the previous one. I think perhaps the fact
that number of days etc is never a specific number is what has led it
to be sometimes  used for periods without end .  But we would never use
'on end'  for  an  endless period  that  included  interruptions:  every
other day.  Or put another way the 'on end' part of the phrase indicates
its consecutiveness not its endlessness.

>Thanks for the interlinear translation.
>
>Thanks also for the translation. I find great pleasure in doing that too.
>Here is the same bit from mine, in Afrikaans.
>
>                        '-----    Heiland se boom
>           Toe hoor ek    hoe hyg dit;
>    beginne spreek,    die saligste van houd,
>  "Jare uitgedagte,    so onthou ek
>is ek van die woud    se wand weggekap---" '
>
>Yrs sincerely,
>Mark
>
I know close to zero Afrikaans, which version did you translate it from?
I'm trying to work out which of the words means 'hewn down'  weggekap?

David Barrow

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

David wrote:

> ...........................   Hælendes tréow,
> ........................   Saviour's tree (cross)
> oþ þæt ic gehýrde   þæt hit hléoðrode     until I heard        that it
spoke
> ongan þá word sprecan   wudu  sélesta   began then words to speak:
> best of woods
> þæt wæs géara iú - ic þæt gýta geman     that was years ago - I still
> remember that-
> þæt ic wæs áhéawan holtes on ende'       that I was hewn down  from the
> forest's edge

Here's my wild stab at an Old Saxon translation:

Hêliandes bôm (= krûci)
and that ik gihôrde that it rêthion
afhêbbade thâr word gisprêkan holte sâligste
that uuas for gêrta – ik farsinnare noh that
that ik uuas âhauwon fan des holtes (~ uualdes) rand (~ and ~ sôm)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul  9 21:21:07 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 14:21:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.09 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUL.2004.142107.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Literature

Folks,

Does any of you have the words of the old (somewhat gruesome) Frisian ballad
_A redder träd a bai un a daans_ (or was it _A redder träd un a daans met a
baai_?) and can share it with me/us?

I learned some of the verses in my teen years and have forgotten them almost
totally.  I imagine this would be interesting material for many of us.

Any annotation or translation would be appreciated also.

Regards and thanks,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul  9 22:22:09 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:22:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Education" 2004.07.09 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUL.2004.152209.0700.>

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From: Leslie Decker <lekkermeisje at earthlink.net>
Subject: LL-L "Education" 2004.07.09 (03) [E]

Congrats Liza!

And I have a B.A. in linguistics from UT from 1998, and am currently an
M.A. student there in Foreign Language Education (ESL/EFL).  If you
speak either German or Dutch and are interested in a conversation
group,  we have a Deutschuebende Gesellschaft every Wednesday evening at
Scholz Biergarten, and a Nederlands Borreluurtje every other Tuesday at
various locations (not so many of us, so we like to vary it!) Beginners
welcome! Email me privately if you're interested in any of these
activities, or info about Austin or UT in general.

Leslie Decker
leslie at volny.cz

>From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
>Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.09 (02) [E]
>
>Liza said: "I have been accepted > to study linguistics at the
>University of Texas this coming semester!"
>
>Excellent!  UT is where I graduated from with a BA in linguistics in
>1984.  At the time it was among the top 3-5 schools in the field of
>linguistics in the U.S.  But, don't let the year of graduation fool you.  I
>didn't start college until I was 25, and I crammed 4 years into 9 ;-).
>Congratulations.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Jul 10 16:49:11 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:49:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Name the language" 2004.07.10 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUL.2004.094911.0700.>

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From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Name the language" 2004.07.01 (06) [E]

Dear All,

I'm not sure whether the way I'm taking this thread is within the scope
of LL-L: the remit there seems to imply that it's the _real_ languages
and cultures of the Lowlands that are to be discussed.  However, I don't
think that anyone would argue that Tolkien, born in Bloemfontain,
ancestrally from the West Midlands and Germany, is a Lowlands Author.
His invented languages Quenya and Sindarin (there is no 'Elvish' any
more than there is 'Germanic' or 'Semitic') are largely inspired by
Welsh and Finnish, so not particularly 'Lowlands'.

Mark's comment that
> He most likely never used the 'Elvish' or 'Middle Earth' mode
>outside of those writings dedicated to them; not even 'Smith of Wootton
>Major'.
>
I wonder what he means by 'mode'.  If he means 'language', then he's
right, Sindarin and Quenya are limited to Middle Earth - the only
exception I can think is his Valedictory Lecture, which concludes with a
short piece of poetry which he dismisses as 'Nonsense', just as (with
the same humorous and ironic intent) that he has just dismissed some old
English poetry as 'language'.

Best wishes,

Pat
--
Pat Reynolds
pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk
   "It might look a bit messy now,
                    but just you come back in 500 years time"
   (T. Pratchett)

----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Name the language" 2004.07.01 (06) [E]

Dear Ron,

Subject: Name the language

Erm, gender? What's that?

> Far be it from me to nitpick, especially in the case of you
gender-deprived,
> albeit learned Afrikaans-speaking lot, but that would be _Von de
> Machandelbloom_ (my spelling _Von dey machandel-bloum_) "(About) The
Juniper
> Flower/Blossom" (feminine), rather than the original _Von dem
Machandelboom_
> (my spelling _Von dem machandel-boum_) "(About) The Juniper Tree"
> (masculine).

> What a difference a slip of the key can make!

I type it as I read it, from the book, 'TREE AND LEAF Including the poem
'Mythopoeia': JRR Tolkien Unwin Paperbacks 2nd Edition 1988. P32: "(Von dem
Machandelbloom)"

Now I, trying to write convincing High German, & since the word for juniper
I know is 'machholder" would rather have written 'Von dem Machholderbaum'
and preferably, by contraction, 'Vom Machholderbaum.' That, Ron, is why I
decided it wasn't Standard High German. Eh?

> Consequently, _machandel_ 'juniper' is pronounced _machannel_ (or
_machanl_)
> in most dialects of today, and in my spelling it's all right to write it
> _machannel_.

> Yep!  Goes to show you just how similar some of those Lowlands varieties
can
> be to each other, especially if you write them more alike.  {Hint, hint,
> blink, blink ...}

Hoor, Hoor!

> A LS speaker has no problem understanding Afrikaans _twee duisend jaar_,
> certainly not in writing.

Groete en Komplimente

Mark

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Name the language

Haai, Mark!

> I type it as I read it, from the book, 'TREE AND LEAF Including the poem
> 'Mythopoeia': JRR Tolkien Unwin Paperbacks 2nd Edition 1988. P32: "(Von
dem
> Machandelbloom)"

Oops!  So then it was the author's error.  I can assure you that it is _Von
dem Machandelboom_ as firmly as that it is _twe dusend Johr_ (rather than
_twe tusend Johr_).

> Now I, trying to write convincing High German, & since the word for
juniper
> I know is 'machholder" would rather have written 'Von dem Machholderbaum'
> and preferably, by contraction, 'Vom Machholderbaum.' That, Ron, is why I
> decided it wasn't Standard High German. Eh?

Oops again!  Perhaps your Afrikaans- and German-influenced North German
(Saxon) roots are showing.  The German word is _Wacholder_ with a "v" sound,
while the Saxon one is _Machandel_.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Jul 10 16:51:16 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:51:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.10 (02) [A/E]
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUL.2004.095116.0700.>

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.09 (02) [E]

Beste Liza

Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica"

> I don't know if it's just the way I speak Afrikaans, but I would use
"baie"
> for nearly every example you gave:

Pardon the interjection, Liza, but Ron is surely referring to hyperbole
here. I also would simply refer to all of the following in terms of 'baie',
but for - oordrewing nê? - I would say,

 baie boeke - 'n stapel boeke
baie mense - 'n trop mense
baie sake / baie dinge / baie goeters - 'n moeras sake? dinge / goeters vir
Afrika!
baie materiaal / baie klere - pakhuise vol materiaal / kaste klere
'n spul nonsens
baie tale / 'n Babel se tale
baie werk / hope werk

> On a personal note, I'd like to share with the list that I have been
> accepted to study linguistics at the University of Texas this coming
> semester!

Geluk, Liza, en aanhou wen!

Die Uwe,
Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Jul 10 17:08:22 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:08:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.10 (03) [A/E/F]
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUL.2004.100822.0700.>

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.01 (05) [E]

Dear Gavin,

LL-L "Etymology"

> The number of Afrikaans and German words using the element could be to do
> with their lack of direct Latinate loans (as opposed to calques)

You have me there, only I would rather say, on behalf of Afrikaans at least,
'scorn' of (unnecessary Latinate constructions) In Afrikaans, native
elements, is the way to go.

Same to yourself,
Mark
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Mark,

Subject: LL-L "Etymology"
Re: on end

> I had always thought it mean something along the lines of "end to end."
For
> example, "He reads mystery novels for hours on end."  I'm visualizing
> several hours lined up end "on end" (one after the other) with the meaning
> of "consecutively."

What tickles me is the 'on' which I would like to read as 'un-' or as in
Afrikaans, 'on-'

Yrs,
Mark

-----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.01 (08) [E]

Beste Stella en Henno

Subject: LL-L "Lexicon"

> To get to the word "terp": this actually doesn't mean "hill" or
"artificial
> mount" originally, although
> it has come to mean this in Dutch, eg.
> The word comes from Old Frisian, where "terp" is the regular development
of
> a Germanic
> stem *thurpi, from which also derives Dutch "dorp", German "Dorf", older
> English -thorp (in place names only nowadays, maybe in dialects as well?)
> etc, = "village". this is probably due to the fact that in Frisian areas a
> village had such a mount with a church on it, very prominently in its
> centre. So the mount came to be known as "village". In modern West Frisian
> we even borrowed the Dutch word "dorp" (as doarp [dwarp]), and only use
> "terp" in the artificial mount meaning only.
> In North Frisian the word is still used (saarep/taarep on Amrum/Feer resp.
> eg.) in the village meaning.

 Henno & Ron, this kind of stuff is meat & drink to me: Many thanks!

Groete,
Mark

----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.01 (07) [E]

Dear David

Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

> That should say my Old English is pretty basic.

Not as basic as mine, & I like what you do.

Yrs, Mark

----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.09 (04) [E]

Dear David & Ron,

LL-L "Etymology"

> I know close to zero Afrikaans, which version did you translate it from?
> I'm trying to work out which of the words means 'hewn down'  weggekap?

Spot on! 'weg' = 'away' & gekap = 'chopped'.
I used 'weg' rather than 'af' or 'neer' = 'down' or 'uit' = 'out' in order
to scan - sorry alliterate - with the first half-line.

I had only the English to work from, & snippets from my studies.
'ANGLO-SAXON POETRY'  Selected & Translated by Prof. R K Gordon. 'The Dream
of the Rood', a prose translation. I prefer to work with such. One can lose
so much in accuracy for the sake of making good verse.

> Here's my wild stab at an Old Saxon translation:
>
> Hêliandes bôm (= krûci)
> and that ik gihôrde that it rêthion
> afhêbbade thâr word gisprêkan holte sâligste
> that uuas for gêrta – ik farsinnare noh that
> that ik uuas âhauwon fan des holtes (~ uualdes) rand (~ and ~ sôm)

Ron, die taal laat my hare opstaan!

Die Uwe,
Mark

----------

From: Stella en Henno <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.01 (08) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Good one, as usual, Henno!
>
> > The word comes from Old Frisian, where "terp" is the regular development
> of
> > a Germanic
> > stem *thurpi, from which also derives Dutch "dorp", German "Dorf", older
> > English -thorp (in place names only nowadays, maybe in dialects as
well?)
> > etc, = "village". this is probably due to the fact that in Frisian areas
a
> > village had such a mount with a church on it, very prominently in its
> > centre. So the mount came to be known as "village". In modern West
Frisian
> > we even borrowed the Dutch word "dorp" (as doarp [dwarp]), and only use
> > "terp" in the artificial mount meaning only.
>
> In most Lowlands Saxon (Low German) dialects of the North it's _dörp_,
> though some have _dorp_.

Grappich om te sjen dat hjir ek de foarm mei omlûd it wûn hat. My tinkt, dy
foarm komt út it meartal wei, lykas it Dútsk ek Dorf - Dörfer hat, of faaks
ek it oare bûgde foarmen (*thurpis as genityf, miskjin). Yn it Aldfrysk
waard in [ö] of [ü] ûntrûne ta [E] (Aldeilânnoardfrysk feroare de earste yn
[E] mar de twadde yn [i]; dit is ien fan 'e redenen om ta in âlde skieding
yn oarsprong tusken de eilannen en de fêstewâl te kommen), en dy is yn it
Westerlauwersk Frysk [e] bleaun of rutsen ta [E:]  ("rêst" = Ingelsk "rest"
= Ndl "rust", "rêch" komt oerien mei Ingelsk "ridge", en it Nederlânske
"rug", mar soms hat it Frysk ek in [I], as yn "mich" = Ing."midge" = Ndl.
"mug" bygelyks. [It Ingelsk hat yn dizze wurden ek mear palatalisearre as it
Frysk]. Dizze ûntrûning sit miskjin ek yn it al neamde "hil" (Siuwsk, tocht
my, dôchs?), dêr't ek de foarm "hel" yn Fryske plaknammen foarkomt ("de
reade hel" bygelyks), en ek yn de Noard-Hollânske plaknamme "Den Helder" (in
meartal: "de heuvels" ("den" út bûgde foarmen), dit plak leit op hege dunen,
oarspronklik). Ek it Ingelsk "hill" soe dan in ûntrûne foarm hawwe. Dit fynt
ek stipe yn it etymologysk wurdboek, dat "hill" (< "hyll") as besibbe sjocht
mei Latyn "collis" < *kolnis en útgiet fan it stam [*hulni] yn it Germaansk,
dêr't ek Middelnederlânsk "hulle" fan komt. It wurd "heuvel" (yn it
Westerlauwerk Frysk in lienwurd) hat wer in oare oarsprong, dy't mei in
Indoeuropeeske stam fan "bûge" te krijen hat. By hel/hill/hil soene ek
Gryksk "kolo:nos" (heuvel) en Aldslavyske en Keltyske foarmen hearre.
[knip]
>
> > In North Frisian the word is still used (saarep/taarep on Amrum/Feer
resp.
> > eg.) in the village meaning.
>
> th (þ) > North Frisian /s/

Allinnich yn it Amrumer Noardfrysk! Mar de oare dialekten hawwe allegearre
in t-, lykas de measte Skandinaafske talen ek. Dit jildt ek foar it
Westerlauwersk en it Sealter Frysk. Allinnich yn âlder Söl'ring en Fering
hearde je in ferskil tusken "gewoane" t en t út [þ], mar dat is no (hast)
útstoarn. It Wangereager Frysk (no ek "dea") hie noch in echt [þ]-lûd, mar
dat wie ek tige behâldend!

> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

Mei freonlike groetnis,

Henno

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Henno (boppe):

> Grappich om te sjen dat hjir ek de foarm mei omlûd it wûn hat. My tinkt,
dy
> foarm komt út it meartal wei, lykas it Dútsk ek Dorf - Dörfer hat, of
faaks
> ek it oare bûgde foarmen (*thurpis as genityf, miskjin).

Ja, wurklik grappich.  Miskijn fan *_thorpo_ > *_thorpe_, lyk as Ingelsk
_thorp_ ~ _thorpe_?

Mar is _terp_ net ek mei omlûd!

Mark (above):

> Ron, die taal laat my hare opstaan!

Oh, Mark!  I'm happy I was able to give you that thrill.  But don't tell me
Old Saxon does to you what Scots does to Gabriele!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Jul 10 17:19:03 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:19:03 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.10 (04) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUL.2004.101903.0700.>

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.01 (04) [E]

Dear Glenn,

Subject: Lexicon

> 'Haugh', I think, is pronounced like your 'hof' but
> there again I'm no linguist! Interesting, there seem
> to be some similarities between the languages.

I agree, & not merely the language, but the people too.
Herewith a short list of Old Afrikaans Families: McDonald, Cambell, Murray,
Barnard, McAlpine, Gordon, Grant, Greeen (three 'e's - it used to be
McGregor), Turner (it used to be Lamont). There is even a family that
supposes it was Scots, but which I happen to have learned, In Situ, came
from immediately south of the Border - Starbuck: Must have eaten a lot of
Scottish beef though. The family is still in the cattle business.
Incidentally, many Scots incomers to this day seem to drift to the Afrikaans
side of the community. I put it down to the ease with which they, (unlike
Pommies) can pick up the language.

I have read that many from Scotland and the Border took service under the
Dutch East India Company, & it didn't end there. Lord Charles Somerset,
sometime Governor of the Cape,  tried to 'Anglicise' the Afrikaner, & to
this purpose imported a body of Scots Predicants, by their 'Covenanter'
persuasion a community highly respected in my country. They forthwith became
Afrikaans. Scratch that plan!

> Another topograpical term  in my part of the world is
> 'hoe', as in my home town Prudhoe 'the hill or
> heights' of Prudda's people or it could mean 'Proud'
> (Prood in Northumbrian) heights'. Hoe is normally an
> elevation on a spur of a river apparently.

We would follow that. We pronounce the comparative 'higher' as 'hu:@r' -
spelt 'hoër' the word we use is 'hoogte' as in 'Voortrekkerhoogte -
Voortrekker Heights'.

Yrs Sincerely,
Mark

----------

From: yasuji <yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Plattdeutsch

Hallo leve Plattsnacker/erin,
as ik in düsse April Sleswig-Holsteen besökt heff, heff ik een Woort
"snacken" vun mien Frünnen hört. Jo is een hoochdüütsche Wort "snacken".
Brukt man "snacken" oft op Hoochdüütsch? Mien Platt is nich ganz goot. Ik
haap, Se all köönt verstahn, wt ik schreven heff.

Hartlich,

Yasuji Waki, ut Japan

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Beste Yasuji,

> Mien Platt is nich ganz goot. Ik
> haap, Se all köönt verstahn, wt ik schreven heff.

Ik kann dat prima verstahn.

Ik kan dat prima verstaan.

"Snacken" is keen "hooch"-düütschet Woort, man över dat Missingsch (ook
_snacken_) hebbt 'n Barg noorddüütsche Dialekten vun 't Düytsche dat Woord
as _schnacken_ övernahmen.

"Snakken" is keyn "Hoog"-Düytschet wourd, man över dat Missingsch (ook
_snakken_) hebt 'n barg Nourddüütsche dialekten vun 't Düytsche dat wourd as
_schnacken_ övernamen.

Yasuji asked if the Lowlands Saxon (Low German) verb _snakken_ (<snacken>),
used in North Saxon dialects to mean 'talk', 'speak', 'chat', etc., is used
in German as well.  I responded by saying that it is not a "High"-German
word but is used as a loanword (_schnacken_) in North German dialects of
German, loaned via Missingsch, German dialects with LS substrates.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Jul 10 23:50:38 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:50:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.10 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUL.2004.165038.0700.>

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From: Frank Verhoft <frank.verhoft at skynet.be>
Subject: Resources

Hi everybody

Some time ago i could buy Paul's Grundriss der germanischen Philologie, 2nd
edition, Vol. I and III, and now i'm looking for the 2nd volume. Alas, i
couldn't find neither a description of that 2nd vol., nor any e-shop where
it can be found.
Can anybody help me out?

Many thanks in advance,

Frank

PS: My apologies for cross-posting

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Jul 10 23:52:25 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:52:25 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Levity" 2004.07.10 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUL.2004.165225.0700.>

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From: Edwin Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
Subject: ENDANGERED LANGUAGE

For those of you who watch what you eat, here's the final word on nutrition
and health.  It's a relief to know the truth after all those conflicting
medical studies.

1) The Japanese eat very little fat and suffer fewer heart attacks than the
British, Americans or Canadians
2) Mexicans eat a lot of fat and suffer fewer heart attacks than the
British, Americans or Canadians
3) Africans drink very little red wine and suffer fewer heart attacks than
the British, Americans or Canadians
4) Italians drink large amounts of red wine and suffer fewer heart attacks
than the British, Americans or Canadians
5) Germans drink a lot of beer and eat lots of sausages and fats and suffer
fewer heart attacks than the British, Americans or Canadians

Conclusion:  Eat and drink to your heart's content.  Speaking English is
apparently what is killing you.

Ed Alexander

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Jul 11 14:14:04 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 07:14:04 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.11 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.11.JUL.2004.071404.0700.>

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.10 (03) [A/E/F]

Ron wrote:

> Oh, Mark!  I'm happy I was able to give you that thrill.  But don't tell
me
> Old Saxon does to you what Scots does to Gabriele!

It's a little more complicated than that, dearest Ron; first of all, the
speaker has to be male and handsome, of course, and second - the content
accounts for at least 50%! :-)

Gabriele "Mae" Kahn

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Jul 11 14:16:13 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 07:16:13 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.11 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.11.JUL.2004.071613.0700.>

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From: Mike <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.10 (05) [E]

Frank wrote:

Some time ago i could buy Paul's Grundriss der germanischen Philologie, 2nd
edition, Vol. I and III, and now i'm looking for the 2nd volume. Alas, i
couldn't find neither a description of that 2nd vol., nor any e-shop where
it can be found.
Can anybody help me out?

Cannot help you, Frank, rather lauch my own request:
Anybody who can help me to find ФАСМЕ� , Etymological Dictionary of the
Russian Language
(Этимологический Словарь � усского Языка)?
Sorry for stepping over the edge of LL.

Greetings, Mike Wintzer

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Jul 11 20:29:43 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:29:43 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Levity" 2004.07.11 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.11.JUL.2004.132943.0700.>

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Etymology

Beste Gabriele,

> Ron wrote:
>
> > Oh, Mark!  I'm happy I was able to give you that thrill.  But don't
> > tell
> me
> > Old Saxon does to you what Scots does to Gabriele!
>
> It's a little more complicated than that, dearest Ron; first
> of all, the speaker has to be male and handsome, of course,
> and second - the content accounts for at least 50%! :-)
>
> Gabriele "Mae" Kahn

The content of what? Content of his wallet? Content of his kilt? *s*

Greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Jul 11 22:22:07 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 15:22:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Levity" 2004.07.11 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.11.JUL.2004.152207.0700.>

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.11 (01) [E]

Dear Gabriele & Ron,

Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

> > But don't tell me Old Saxon does to you what Scots does to Gabriele!
>
> It's a little more complicated than that, dearest Ron; first of all, the
> speaker has to be male and handsome, of course, and second - the content
> accounts for at least 50%! :-)

I'm so glad I waited to respond! On behalf of my wife, I must inform you,
Ron, that I'm a happily married man.

& Gabriele, purely in the spirit of Academic inquiry, What would this
content embrace; exactly?

Yrs,
Mark

----------

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Levity" 2004.07.11 (03) [E]

Luc wrote:

> > It's a little more complicated than that, dearest Ron; first
> > of all, the speaker has to be male and handsome, of course,
> > and second - the content accounts for at least 50%! :-)
> >
> > Gabriele "Mae" Kahn
>
> The content of what? Content of his wallet? Content of his kilt? *s*

The content of his brain. Unlike many people, I don't consider somebody's
wallet an erogenous zone... that's why, sadly, I have to support myself to
this day instead of whooping it up in a gated community in Berverly Hills
(oh, the horror!). Or maybe you meant the content of his glenwillie?
According to the late Douglas Adams ("The Meaning of Liff"), that is "a
protective pouch worn under the kilt during thistle harvest".

Actually, when my husband is trying to entice me to shut down the computer
and come to bed at night, he usually waves a shiny new cryptic crossword
puzzle under my nose. That's the one thing I cannae resist!

Cryptically,
Gabriele Kahn

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Jul 11 22:25:35 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 15:25:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Name the language" 2004.07.11 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.11.JUL.2004.152535.0700.>

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Name the language" 2004.07.10 (01) [E]

Hi, Pat!
Subject: LL-L "Name the language"

> I'm not sure whether the way I'm taking this thread is within the scope
> of LL-L:
> However, I don't think that anyone would argue that Tolkien, born in
Bloemfontain,
> ancestrally from the West Midlands and Germany, is a Lowlands Author.

I stand with you that he was not a Lowands Languages 'author', to any
extant, but he was manifestly a 'scholar', not merely Lowlands Languages,
but of the Teutonic languages as a whole. The University, on awarding him
their honour, were at some pains (because of the publicity his fiction had
gathered to him) that they were recognising his Scholarship, not his 'Lord
of the Rings'.

This doesn't mean he didn't have fun in any other language. While in the
English department at Leeds, as a member of the 'Viking Club', he & E V
Gordon met with the undergraduates to drink large quantities of beer, read
the sagas, translate Nursary Rhymes into Old English, lampoon fellows &
students, & compose comic songs in Old Norse. He did the same with the
'Inklings' & the 'Kolbìtar' in Oxford. (J R R TOLKIEN: A Biography:
H.Carpenter).

> I wonder what he means by 'mode'.  If he means 'language', then he's right

Yes: Well, for Tolkien Language had a broader application than many, so in
his case I'd stick with mode.

Yrs Sincerely,
Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Jul 11 23:31:00 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 16:31:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "In the media" 2004.07.11 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.11.JUL.2004.163100.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: In the media

Folks,

I believe that on this list we have a large number of people that are
interested in British history and folklore.  Those of you, and perhaps even
others, might be tempted to watch the newly released movie _King Arthur_
(http://kingarthur.movies.go.com/main.html).  I watched it yesterday.

The movie is of course predominantly entertaining, and educational messages
must be taken with a couple of grains of salt.  Nevertheless, it is
interesting in that it goes beyond the traditional story by incorporating
some more recent research findings which point toward Arthur having been a
part-British (i.e., Brython, Pictish) and part-Roman officer in Roman employ
who attempted to fill the void when the Romans withdrew from Britain and the
Saxons were just beginning to invade.  Furthermore, it shows Arthur's
knights as Samartians* that had been drafted by the Romans from their
homeland in what are now areas of Poland and Ukraine.

Some reading and TV-watching revealed that according to the latest theories
the King Arthur saga is largely based upon Samartian* folk epics, including
drawing the sword from a rock, the Holy Grail being based on a cauldron that
revived fallen warriors and made them indestructable and unfeeling battle
machines, and even the name Lancelot being based on the name of a hero in
one of these Samartian* epics.

In the movie the Picts speak what I assume is a made-up Celtic-based
language.  The Saxons -- who, understandably are portrayed in a less than
flattering light and, being deemed "German," display slight shades of
Hollywood Nazi stereotypes -- actually use an Old Saxon battle cry.  (Mark,
I wonder if it would make your hair stand on end ...)  For the sake of those
of you who (will) wonder about it, and for the sake of discussion, let me
say that I identified it as being _Slahan fîand!_ ['sla:xan 'fi:ant],
something like "Slay(ing) the foe!"  _Fîand_, being a cognate of both
English "fiend" and German _Feind_ 'enemy', means 'demon', 'ghoul', 'fiend'
and also 'foe' or 'enemy' in Old Saxon.  I wonder if others agree with my
understanding of the battle cry.

* The Samartians are believed to have moved to Eastern Europe from Central
Asia and appear to have been nomadic or semi-nomadic.  They were the eastern
neighbors of the Scythians whom they later annexed.  Most scholars believe
that they spoke an Iranian varity.  In the early part of Slavonic
colonization of Poland, the nobility of that region claimed to be Samartian
and referred to their land as Samartia.  Even though Samartia was not a part
of the Roman Empire, Romans routinely "recruited" (by force) Samartian
youths (who came with superior equestrian skills) and posted them at the far
reaches of their borderlands in the west, for instance along the Rhine and
also along Hadrian's Wall in Northern Britain.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul 12 16:04:40 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:04:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "In the media" 2004.07.12 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUL.2004.090440.0700.>

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: In the media

Beste Ron,

> Folks,
>
> I believe that on this list we have a large number of people
> that are interested in British history and folklore.  Those
> of you, and perhaps even others, might be tempted to watch
> the newly released movie _King Arthur_
> (http://kingarthur.movies.go.com/main.html).  I watched it yesterday.
>
> The movie is of course predominantly entertaining, and
> educational messages must be taken with a couple of grains of
> salt.  Nevertheless, it is interesting in that it goes beyond
> the traditional story by incorporating some more recent
> research findings which point toward Arthur having been a
> part-British (i.e., Brython, Pictish) and part-Roman officer
> in Roman employ who attempted to fill the void when the
> Romans withdrew from Britain and the Saxons were just
> beginning to invade.  Furthermore, it shows Arthur's knights
> as Samartians* that had been drafted by the Romans from their
> homeland in what are now areas of Poland and Ukraine.
>
> Some reading and TV-watching revealed that according to the
> latest theories the King Arthur saga is largely based upon
> Samartian* folk epics, including drawing the sword from a
> rock, the Holy Grail being based on a cauldron that revived
> fallen warriors and made them indestructable and unfeeling
> battle machines, and even the name Lancelot being based on
> the name of a hero in one of these Samartian* epics.
>
> In the movie the Picts speak what I assume is a made-up
> Celtic-based language.  The Saxons -- who, understandably are
> portrayed in a less than flattering light and, being deemed
> "German," display slight shades of Hollywood Nazi stereotypes
> -- actually use an Old Saxon battle cry.  (Mark, I wonder if
> it would make your hair stand on end ...)  For the sake of
> those of you who (will) wonder about it, and for the sake of
> discussion, let me say that I identified it as being _Slahan
> fîand!_ ['sla:xan 'fi:ant], something like "Slay(ing) the
> foe!"  _Fîand_, being a cognate of both English "fiend" and
> German _Feind_ 'enemy', means 'demon', 'ghoul', 'fiend'
> and also 'foe' or 'enemy' in Old Saxon.  I wonder if others
> agree with my understanding of the battle cry.
>
> * The Samartians are believed to have moved to Eastern Europe
> from Central Asia and appear to have been nomadic or
> semi-nomadic.  They were the eastern neighbors of the
> Scythians whom they later annexed.  Most scholars believe
> that they spoke an Iranian varity.  In the early part of
> Slavonic colonization of Poland, the nobility of that region
> claimed to be Samartian and referred to their land as
> Samartia.  Even though Samartia was not a part of the Roman
> Empire, Romans routinely "recruited" (by force) Samartian
> youths (who came with superior equestrian skills) and posted
> them at the far reaches of their borderlands in the west, for
> instance along the Rhine and also along Hadrian's Wall in
> Northern Britain.

I take it you are willing to refer to the Sarmatians here? Metathesis? Maybe
caused by the Samara oblast? Anyway, very interesting, to say the
least...unfortunately "King Arthur" has not been released here yet.
I read something equally compelling in an article on how British men could
easily be descendants of Genghis Khan. You can find it here:
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20040621/genghis.html
The survey was held at Oxford University by Bryan Sykes, a geneticist, and
the results could be explained by the fact that the Mongols first killed all
the men, then inseminated all the women and finally handed down the empire
from son to son...this would explain why Genghis' Y chromosome spread as far
as the UK.

Greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "In the media" 2004.07.11 (06) [E]

About the new King Arthur movie:
Here's a review I read, and it's not very flattering:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5343992

By John Hartl
Film critic
MSNBC
Updated: 2:24 p.m. ET July 06, 2004

Everyone has a favorite Camelot movie. Producer Jerry Bruckheimer and
director Antoine Fuqua’s “King Arthur” tries very hard not to resemble any
of them.

Aside from a few lustful glances, very little is left of the
Arthur-Guinevere-Lancelot triangle. The gritty style suggests “Braveheart,”
the script’s occasional pretensions recall “Lord of the Rings” and
“Gladiator” (which was partly written by this film’s screenwriter, David
Franzoni), while the grotesque makeup and special effects appear to be left
over from Bruckheimer’s “Pirates of the Caribbean.”

 Quick facts
Starring: Clive Owen, Stephen Dillane, Keira Knightley, Hugh Dancy, Ioan
Gruffudd
Director: Antoine Fuqua
Running time: 2 hours, 10 minutes
MPAA rating: PG-13

But where is Johnny Depp, or any actor willing to walk the plank to give
this “Arthur” a lift? Clive Owen’s Arthur is relentlessly morose, Ioan
Gruffudd’s Lancelot is poorly defined, and it comes as a major surprise —
almost a plot twist midway through the movie — when it’s revealed that they’
re the best of friends.

True, Keira Knightley (from “Pirates”) is easily the most aggressive
Guinevere in film history, challenging Arthur’s political and religious
allegiances and savagely fighting back in the battle scenes, but there’s not
much more to her character or her relationships.

And the supporting cast, which includes such accomplished actors as Stephen
Dillane (as Merlin) and Stellan Skarsgaard (as a vicious Saxon warlord),
have even less to work with. Fuqua may have guided Denzel Washington to an
Oscar in “Training Day,” but he often seems defeated by the size of this $90
million production.

He appears to be most comfortable with the battle scenes, especially a tense
episode in which Arthur & Co. lure the gullible Saxons into an icebound lake
that starts to crack up when they try to cross it. Yet even the action
scenes are always on the verge of collapsing into “Monty Python and the Holy
Grail” hilarity.

Guinevere never misses with her bow and arrow, while the supposedly tough
and well-trained Saxons rarely seem capable of doing anything right. There’s
even a fake Stonehenge by the sea that seems to embarrass the actors. Owen
in particular appears to be cracking up as he tries to deliver a somber
curtain speech.

The movie begins as the story of the child Lancelot, who is taken from his
family in 452 A.D. Fifteen years later, it suddenly becomes Arthur’s story,
and there are other dismayingly abrupt changes in the point of view. For
awhile, Franzoni’s dialogue emphasizes religious debates, between Arthur and
Lancelot, between Arthur and Guinevere, and between Arthur and the sadistic
priests and traitorous representatives of Rome, but it all seems like filler
between battles.

Franzoni’s screenplay does try to break from the past by positioning Arthur
as a reluctant pawn in the Roman empire’s abandonment of the British Isles.
Alas, Arthur’s gradual realization that Britain needs a unifying king, and
that he’s the man for the job, is sketchily handled. Perhaps “King Arthur”
is closer to historical truth than any previous Camelot movie, but it really
doesn’t matter because so little about the characters rings true.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------

So much for the review. By the way, what Ron wrote about
> "the Holy Grail being based on a cauldron that revived fallen warriors
> and made them indestructable and unfeeling battle machines
sounds like it's taken straight from Lloyd Alexander's Prydain books (the
Taran series; there's even a Disney movie about "The Black Cauldron").

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "In the media" 2004.07.11 (06) [E]

Dear Ron,

Subject: In the media

Don't you mean Sarmations?

I loved the 'Matter of Britain' since early childhood. It is one of the most
consistant collections of books I have made. One of these is an interesting
view from the - well 'West Saxon' perspective, entitled, 'The Conscience of
the King' (He was notable for not having one), as clinical an analysis of a
sociopath as I have read in fiction), but but not destructive for all that.
Here for the first time, I read of the British use of Catephracti against
the Saxons. Actually, it seems to me the Clinibarii (ovens), even more
heavily armoured, even with armoured horses, were more likely, if they were
Sarmatian based.

Too few people bear in mind that at the end of the Roman Empire most of
their Army (like 90%) was German, & of the very tribes that invaded them.
They had had hundreds of years of exposure to Roman military & cultural
techniques, & by then there was little difference between the humble Roman
peasant (Humilior) & the German peasant, except that he wasn't humble, was
armed, & moreover, wouldn't pay any tax at all, let alone a crippling one.
Little enough attention is paid to the part that bureaucratic proliferation
played in the collapse of the Roman Empire - & NASA

>(Mark, I wonder if it would make your hair stand on end ...)  For the sake
of those
> of you who (will) wonder about it, and for the sake of discussion, let me
> say that I identified it as being _Slahan fîand!_ ['sla:xan 'fi:ant],

I would understand that: & it probably would! Afrikaans _ Slaan die Vyand!_
['sla:n di f@:iand'] = Slay the enemy! Afrikaans 'slag' [slax] = slaughter &
'in die slag gebly' [@n di slax x at bl@:i] = defeated in battle.
This is probably 'Old Hat' to you, Ron, though others may be interested.

But perhaps you can help me with 'sneuwel - gesneuwel' [sni:@v at l -
x at sni:@v at l], a word we use exclusively for one who has died in combat?

Groete,
Mark

----------

From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: "In the Media."

Hello, Ron and other Lowlanders!

Ron, in your posting about the new film 'King Arthur' you repeatedly speak
about the SAMARTIANS. I think you must be referring to the SARMATIANS, and
must be guilty of a lapsus keyboardus!

The Sarmatians were called Sauromati by the early Greeks, and Sarmati (Latin
Sarmatae) by their later descendants and by the Romans.Heredotus speaks of
them as living beyond the River Tanais, which corresponds to the modern
Don.They later allied themselves with Rome, and often acted as buffers
between the Romans and hostile Germanic tribes.Not far from my hometown of
Preston is a small place called Ribchester; this was an important Roman
settlement called Bremetennacum Veteranorum, and apparently many of the men
stationed there were in fact Sarmatians.

Much is made by some researchers of the fact that one of the commanders of
the Sarmatian horsemen in Britain was called Lucius Artorius Castus, who put
down a rebellion in Gaul in 184 AD. Others suggest that the Sarmatian
religion revolved around Arthurian-type motifs like people pulling swords
out of stones. I wonder though just how much is actually known about
Sarmatian culture, given the fact that there still seems to be conjecture
even about the origins of their language: although the concensus considers
them to have spoken an early Iranic language, there are still people trying
to claim that thiir speech was Proto-Slavonic or Proto-Hungarian.

C. Scott Littleton and Linda Malcor suggest (in their book 'From Scythia to
Camelot') that many of the elements of the Arturian legends originate in the
mythology of the Sarmatians and Alans. There is apparently a figure in the
'Alan Nart cycle' (actually the Ossetian Nart Cycle) called Batraz whom they
take to be Arthur by another name. Lancelot they suggest takes his name from
'Alanz-lot', 'the parcel of land of the Alan'. One major problem with their
conjectures is that the very elements that the Arthurian and 'Scythian'
legends (Sarmatians and Alans are considered to be Sythians, though I am not
sure that this is totally correct; Herdotus clearly distinguishes between
them) have in common - the sword in the stone, the grail, the return of the
sword to the enchanted lake - so not appear in the earlier versions of the
story. The Ossetian epic cycle too was only written down in the 19th
century, so it would not be possible for outside elements to have entered
it.

Well, I started off correcting one word and I seem to have written a short
essay!

John Duckworth
Preston, UK

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: In the media

Folks,

Yes, yes, I did mean "SaRmatians."  Sorry about the error, and thanks for
the corrections and elaborations.

This one certainly struck a cord with quite a few of you, judging by a few
off-list responses as well.  I assumed many of you would be a lot more
knowledgeable about this than I am, and obviously I was right.  Also, please
bear in mind that this type of movie is first of all for entertainment, not
for genuine education, and supposedly its educational value ought to be
taken with a grain of salt or two, as I had mentioned.

I need to stress that none of the theories are in any way espoused by me.

One off-list response mentioned that it is not necessary to resort to
"exotic" explanations when elements of folk epos, such as that of the
cauldron, can be found within Celtic societies as well.  Again, I stress
that I do not in any way endorse the story line of the movie and the
supposed research it is based on.  Furthermore, I agree that oftentimes
people resort to "exotic" explanations and ignore the obvious, mostly for
reasons of relying on spotty information, obsession with one's own little
research niche, sensationalism and "splash" value.

As far as I am concerned, what this ought to remind us of is that very often
we deal with common or widespread Eurasian folkloristic heritage, a heritage
going back to oral transmission from an ancient and misty past.  Either it
was passed on from group to group (because in the past there used to be much
more interethnic communication across the entire Eurasian continent than
even now many people want to believe or admit) or, as is also possible in
this case, it goes back to a common, pre-diversification heritage.  I feel
that, even though we deal with a relatively small field of interest, we
ought to always bear in mind that there are fewer differences than
similarities among the world's people and their thoughts, languages,
cultures, technologies, beliefs and aspirations, that virtually nothing can
be looked at in total isolation.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 13 15:52:23 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 08:52:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.13 (01) [D/E]
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUL.2004.085223.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Literature

Folks,

I am here to help one of our new subscribers who lives in Mühlheim on the
Ruhr, a Low-Franconian-speaking area of Germany close to the borders with
Netherlands and Belgian Limburg.  Although he follows our discussions with
interest, he is not sufficiently confident to participate in English.
Please find a copy of his German message below.

[At this point I ought to interject, emphasizing once again that it is not
necessary, certainly not required, to write in English on this list.  You
are welcome to write in any language you wish, not only Lowlands languages
either (in this case either in German or in Mühlheim dialect), although it
is true that English reaches more people.]

Anyway, here is the thing.  The oldest known Mühlheim Low Franconian piece
of literature is a Martinmas song sung while going from door to door
"begging" for treats (in the style of Halloween trick-o-treating), a song
that has relatives in an area from Dunkerque (Flemish) to Pomorania
(Lowlands Saxon/Low German).  Our new Lowlander invites everyone to share
related versions from other regions.  (I ought to add our Belgian friends,
and indeed anyone to this list.)

We have mentioned this Martinmas song before.  You can search for it in our
archives (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html) under
"Search the Archives."  (Just input "Martinmas" in the search box and make
sure you check the box for "Substring Search.")

Below please find a copy of the Mühlheim version of the song, first in
German-based spelling and then in my transliteration into what is roughly
Limburgish spelling as used in the Netherlands and Belgium.  By the way, the
indented verse is in ("High") German.

Laaglanders, voornamelijk u mensen in of van Nederland en België, laat ons
onse nieuwe vriend verwelkomen en hem helpen om onse gemeenschappelijke
erfgoederen te ontdekken!  Bij voorbaat bedankt.

Furthermore, our new member wishes to know what the pronunciation of "g" is
in Limburgish, whether or not it is like in German _ach_, which is the case
in the dialect of Mühlheim.

I take it that _Äässe_ (my _Èse_) refers to the nearby German city of Essen.

The Mühlheim webpage (currently down) is here:
http://www.muelheim-ruhr.de/

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

From: "Franz Firla" <f.firla at web.de>
To: "Hahn, R.F." <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Ssinter_Mätes_Vögelsche
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:50:59 +0200


Lieber Herr Hahn,

ich muß gestehen, dass ich die Diskussionen in LOWLANDS zwar mit Interesse
verfolge, mich aber mit meinem ungeübten Englisch kaum in eine Diskussion
einlassen könnte.
Nun habe ich aber die große Hoffnung, dass Sie mir bei der Verbreitung
bestimmter Anliegen in den Niederlanden behilflich sein könnten.
Die Verwandtschaft unseres Mölmsch mit dem Limburgs ist hier bekannt.
Die historische Richtung der Verbreitung bleibt jedoch unklar.
Das älteste Zeugnis unserer Mundart ist das Martinslied "Ssinter Mätes
Vögelsche". Auch dies ist keine Singularität sondern ein Version eines
Liedtypus, der von Dünkirchen bis nach Pommern nachzuweisen ist.
Ihre niederländischen Kollegen kennen möglichweise noch mir unbekannte
Textversionen.Dafür wäre ich sehr dankbar!
Der Text unserer Version findet sich in den Ihnen bekannten Internet-Seiten
unter "Mölmsche Lieder"

Ach, by the way, eine Frage:
Wird das g bzw. das ch im Limburgs wie das deutsche ch in "ach"
ausgesprochen, was wir ja tun?

Mit herzlichen Grüßen aus dem schönen Mülheim a.d.Ruhr

Ihr

Franz Firla


***
German-based spelling:

   SSINTER MÄÄTES VÖÖGELSCHE

   Ssinter Määtes Vöögelsche
   heet ssu'n roat Kapöögelsche,
   cheflooge, chestoowe
   wiet, wiet ööwer dä Rhien,
   woo die fette Ferkes ssien.
   Chutt Frau, cheeff uss wat,
   aal die Hünnerkes leege wat!

   Boowen in die Fääsche
   hangen di lange Wööste,
   cheeft uss di lange,
   loot di kotte hangen.
   Loot uss nee ssu lang hie stohn,
   we-i mööten en Hüüske widder chohn;
   hie van dän noh Äässe,
   hoolen en fettem Bläässe;
   hie vöär, doo vöär,
   vöär die rieke Koupmannsdüär.

      Hier wohnt ein reicher Mann,
      der uns was geben kann,
      viel soll er geben, lang soll er leben,
      selig soll er sterben,
      das Himmelreich erwerben!

   Die Maad, die löp di Trappen 'erop,
   pack wahl in dä Nöötesack,
   pack wahl nee derneewe,
   sse wädd uss wahl wat cheewe.
   Chiff wat, haul wat,
   teegen't Johr wirr wat.
   Ssinter Määtes Stuppstatt,
   schmiet en Appel duar dat Chatt,
   schmiet en nee ssu’ wiet,
   ssüss fällt hee in ,en Driet,
   schmiet en nee ssu' hatt,
   ssüss fällt hee in 'et Chat!

   Muus, Muus kumm 'eruut,
   chiff uss Äppel un Nööte;
   Äppel un Nööte ssiend ssu' chutt
   füär dän aulem Pattsfoot!

***
Limburgish-based spelling:

   SINTER MÈTES VEUGELSJE

   Sinter Mètes veugelsje
   heet soe'n roat kapeugelsje.
   Geflogen, gestoven
   wiet, wiet euver dè Rhien,
   wò die vetten verkes sien.
   Goed vrau, geef oes wat!
   Aal die hunnerkes legen wat!

   Boven in die vèsje
   hangen die langen weuste.
   Geeft oes die langen!
   Lòòt die kotten hangen!
   Lòòt oes ne soe lang hie sjtòòn!
   Wei meuten en huuske widder gòòn,
   hie van dèn nò Èse,
   hòlen en vetten blèèssen;
   hie vöär, dò vöär,
   vöär die rieke koupmansduer.

      Hier wohnt ein reicher Mann,
      der uns was geben kann,
      viel soll er geben, lang soll er leben,
      selig soll er sterben,
      das Himmelreich erwerben!

   Die maad, die leup die trappen erop,
   pak waal in dè neutesak,
   pak waal ne derneven.
   Se wèd oes waal wat geven.
   Gif wat, haul wat,
   tegen't jòòr wir wat.

   Sinter Mètes sjtoepsjtat.
   Sjmiet en appel duar dat gat!
   Sjmiet en ne soe wiet,
   sus vèlt he in en driet.
   Sjmiet en ne soe hat,
   sus vèlt he in et gat!

   Moes, moes, koem eroet!
   Gif oes èppel oen neute!
   Èppel oen neute siend soe goed
   vüär dèn aulen patsvoot!

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 13 16:54:20 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:54:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.13 (02) [E/German]
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUL.2004.095420.0700.>

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.13 (01) [D/E]

First of all - hello, Franz - I live not far from you and actually used to
work for a well-known software company in Mülheim (the one in the red brick
building next to the train station...) until two years ago.

Here's a Martinmas verse we used to sing as children in South Lower Saxony.
Please keep in mind that, as that area is largely Protestant, all these
songs refer to Martin Luther there (same day - his birthday), not St.
Martin.

"Matten Matten Abend,
de Äppel unn de Pären,
dat Himmelreich is uppgedaan,
da wollmer alle rinnegaan,
an düsen Matten Abend."

Viele Grüße ans liebliche Ufer der Ruhr,
Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Literature

Here are a couple of Rhenish Martinmas songs:


Ripurarian Rhenish of Cologne (Köln):

DÄ HELLGE ZENTER MÄTES

   Dä hellge Zenter Mätes, dat wer ne jode Mann.
   Dä jev dä Kinder Kärzer un stoch se selver an.
   Butz, butz widder butz, dat wer ne jode Mann.

   Dä hellge Zenter Mätes, dä kütt och hück zo uns.
   Drom gommer met dä Fackele. Et freut sich kleen und groß
   Butz, butz widder butz, dat wer ne jode Mann

***

Low Franconian of the Lower Rhine area (where?)

SÜNTE MARTINS VÖGGELKEN

  Sünte Martins Vöggelken,
   dat hadde sun rot Köggelken.
   Dat flogg all so hooge,
   öwwer denn Kerksturme,
   öwwer denn Rhin.
   Hei, Sünte Martin!

   Sünte Martin is et kold.
   Gewwt uns een Stücksten Holt,
   woar wij uns an wörmen
   Könnten met unse blanke Arme.
   Gewwt wat, hollt wat,
   gewwt denn armen Thomes wat.

   Thomes, Thomes, dicken Schleef,
   heww kin Vader un Moder neet leef.
   De Köije hebbt de Hürne.
   De Kerken hebbt de Türne.
   De Hüser hebbt 'ne Gewwel.
   Den Tutemann heww denn Kenewwe!

      Hier wohnt ein reicher Mann,
      der uns vieles geben kann.
      Vieles soll er geben!
      Lange soll er leben!
      Selig soll er sterben!
      Den Himmel soll er erben!

   Gott sall 't um lohnen
   met hunderdusen Kronen,
   met hunderdusen Röckskes an ...
   door kümp Sünte Martin an!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 13 18:12:52 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:12:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.13 (03) [E/German]
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUL.2004.111252.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Literature

Below are a few related Martinmas songs of the Netherlands.

(Eine kurze Aussprachehilfe für Deutschsprachige befindet sich am Ende.)

Enjoy!
Reinhard/Ron

***


Netherlands Limburg (where?)

   Sintemertens veugelke
   Haet n roëd keugelke
   Haet n blauw stertje
   Danke, Sintemerte!

Netherlands Limburg (where?)

   Sinte Martens veugeltje,
   Rood, rood, reugeltje,
   Rood, rood rokje an,
   Dat is Sinte Martens man.


Venloo (Netherlands):



   Sinter Merte's veugelke
   Hèt ein roët neugelke
   En ein blouw stertje,
   Hoepsa, Sinter Merte!

Netherlands (where?):

   Kip, kap, kogel,
   Sinte Meertens vogel
   Vloog over dijk, vloog over dam,
   Kwam een schip met appels an.
   Zoeten, zuren, kunnen op 't langste duren.
   Hier woont een rijke man,
   Die ons wel wat geven kan,
   Veul zal hij geven, lang zal hij leven,
   Zalig zal hij sterven,
   't Koninkrijke beërven
   Geeft ook wat, 'n appel of 'n peer.
   Kom veur ankomende jaar niet weêr.

Lowlands Saxon of Emden (Drenthe, Netherlands -- not of Germany!):

   Kip, kap keugel,
   Sunder-Martens veugel
   Woel so wiët flegen
   Al euver den Rün.
   Hei je Sunder-Martens veugel niet sien?
   Sunder-Martens gense
   Sunt ook gaar te bense,
   Biten de olle wive
   De titten van den live,
   Braden ze op 'n reuster,
   Smekken ze as 'n keuster.
   D'r vlogen twee robiintjes na 't papenhoes to,
   Dat papenhoes weer d'r versloten,
   De himmel stoen speerwijd open.
   Als Josef oet de schale kwam,
   He har d'r geen botter,
   He har d'r geen brood,
   He lee siin kop in Marye heur schoot.
   Marye dee har d'r goerrel an,
   Daar hongen wol doesent klokjes an.
   De klokjes foengen an to pingelen,
   Leeve engeltjes foengen an to singen,
   Van hier an, van daar an.
   Boven woont de rike man,
   Dee oens waal wat geven kan.
   Rike man te pere,
   Oense lieve Heere
   Dee let wassen
   Good koorn oet good flassen,
   Good koorn oen good liinsaad.
   Trooke, is dat geen hoesgeraad?

Lowlands Saxon of Emden (Drenthe, Netherlands -- not of Germany!):

   Kip, kap keugel,
   Sunder-Martens veugel
   Sunder-Martens dikkeboek,
   Stekt siin eers to 't fenster oet.
   Hier woont 'n rieke man,
   Die veul geven kan.
   Veul kan he geven,
   Lank zal he leven;
   Wen he koemt to starven,
   De hemel sal he arven,
   God sal 'm lonen
   Mit hondert-doesend kronen,
   Mit hondert-doesend klokjes d'r an,
   Daar koemt Sunder-Marten an.

___
Ungefähre Aussprache:
   g = ch (wie in “acht”)
   s = ss, ß
   sch = ßch
   z = s
   v = zwischen w und f, im Zweifelsfall wie "f"
   oe = u
   eu = öö
   ij = äi/ai
   ei = äi/ai
   u (kurz) = zwischen ö und ü, fast wie ü in “küsst”
   u (lang) oder uu = üü
   -en = -e (in vielen niedersächsischen Mundarten auch -n)
   ê = ä
   è = ä
   ë = vom vorhergehenden Laut getrennt ausgesprochen

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 13 21:23:30 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:23:30 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.13 (04) [D/E/German]
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUL.2004.142330.0700.>

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From: Mathieu van Woerkom <mathieu at brabants.org>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.13 (01) [D/E]

Ron wrote:

> Limburgish-based spelling:
>
>    SINTER MÈTES VEUGELSJE
>
>    Sinter Mètes veugelsje
>    heet soe'n roat kapeugelsje.
>    Geflogen, gestoven
>    wiet, wiet euver dè Rhien,
>    wò die vetten verkes sien.
>    Goed vrau, geef oes wat!
>    Aal die hunnerkes legen wat!
>
>    Boven in die vèsje
>    hangen die langen weuste.
>    Geeft oes die langen!
>    Lòòt die kotten hangen!
>    Lòòt oes ne soe lang hie sjtòòn!
>    Wei meuten en huuske widder gòòn,
>    hie van dèn nò Èse,
>    hòlen en vetten blèèssen;
>    hie vöär, dò vöär,
>    vöär die rieke koupmansduer.
>
>       Hier wohnt ein reicher Mann,
>       der uns was geben kann,
>       viel soll er geben, lang soll er leben,
>       selig soll er sterben,
>       das Himmelreich erwerben!
>
>    Die maad, die leup die trappen erop,
>    pak waal in dè neutesak,
>    pak waal ne derneven.
>    Se wèd oes waal wat geven.
>    Gif wat, haul wat,
>    tegen't jòòr wir wat.
>
>    Sinter Mètes sjtoepsjtat.
>    Sjmiet en appel duar dat gat!
>    Sjmiet en ne soe wiet,
>    sus vèlt he in en driet.
>    Sjmiet en ne soe hat,
>    sus vèlt he in et gat!
>
>    Moes, moes, koem eroet!
>    Gif oes èppel oen neute!
>    Èppel oen neute siend soe goed
>    vüär dèn aulen patsvoot!

It is indeed remarkable to see how much the dialect of Mühlheim resembles
Limburgish, this especially comes out when you use Limburgish spelling, of
course.

Where exactly is Mühlheim, and does this count for all dialects in the
Ruhr-area?

regards,
Mathieu

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Literature

Beste Franz,

Bij ons (Belgisch West-Brabant) wordt Sint-Maarten niet gevierd voor zover
ik weet, maar in de naburige Denderstreek (omgeving Aalst), is hij wel
populair. Je kan meer informatie vinden op
http://www.meertens.knaw.nl/feesten/sintmaarten.html . De liedjes zelf kan
je horen op http://www.meertens.knaw.nl/feesten/sintmaartenszingen.html#2 (+
teksten).

Tussen haakjes, het Brabantse Mollem wordt in het plaatselijke dialect
"Möllem" uitgesproken, net zoals Mülheim in het Mülheims lijkt het wel.

Met vriendelijke groeten,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Literature

Hoi, Mathieu!

> It is indeed remarkable to see how much the dialect of Mühlheim resembles
> Limburgish,

See?  I told you so.  ;-)

> this especially comes out when you use Limburgish spelling, of
> course.

Just the result I was shooting for.  :-)

Yep, much of what we find "weird" in each other's Lowlands varieties is only
due to "orthographic distortions," especially where political boundaries
have led to orthographic alienation.  We'd be "cookin' with grease" if we
had a uniform spelling system for all varieties.

> Where exactly is Mühlheim,

Here's something starting you off with:

Mühlheim on Ruhr (and there are other Mühlheims, such as the one on the Main
river) is just a bit southwest of Essen and a bit east of Duisburg (which is
just east of Krefeld).  Go a bit farther west from Duisburg, and you cross
the border into the Netherlands and hit Venlo and Tegelen.

See this map:
http://www.daf.uni-mainz.de/landeskunde/1999_2/Essen/Images/Ruhrgebiet.jpg

> and does this count for all dialects in the
> Ruhr-area?

I'm not sure if it applies to *all* dialects, but I am pretty sure that it
applies to many, where the old Low Franconian dialects are still alive, that
is.  I hope others can help us here.  I know that the dialect of
Viesche/Viësje/Viersen is rather similar, and I have always thought of it as
some sort of quasi-Limburgish at least.  This town is situated southwest of
Krefeld, right next to Mönchengladbach, is thus geographically even closer
to "official" Limburg.  I imagine that, if still alive, the dialects of
places such as Mönchengladbach, Nettetal, Lobberich, Süchteln and Kempen are
pretty close to Limburgish proper, if they should not be considered parts of
Limburgish.  Once you start heading southeast from there you hit the
Ripuarian dialect area (e.g., Cologne).

This is what German Wikipedia has to say
(http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niederrheinische_Sprache):
<quote>

Als Niederrheinische oder besser Niederrheinisch-Bergische Sprache
bezeichnet man die in Deutschland gesprochenen niederfränkischen Dialekte.
Diese gliedern sich grob in:

  a.. Limburgisch-Bergische Dialekte gesprochen in Krefeld, Mönchengladbach,
den Kreisen Viersen, Heinsberg, Mettmann, sowie im nördlichen Kreis Neuss,
im Kreis Mettmann, in Düsseldorf, Solingen und Remscheid
  a.. Kleverländische Dialekte, gesprochen am unteren Niederrhein, im
westlichen Ruhrgebiet und im östlichen bergischen Land.
Während die Kleverländischen Mundarten eindeutig als niederländische
Dialekte eingeordnet werden können, ist die Zuordnung der
limburgisch-bergischen Mundarten umstritten.

Die sehr stark von der deutschen Hochsprache abweichende Niederrheinische
Sprache wurde nach dem zweiten Weltkrieg mehr und mehr von dieser verdrängt.

</quote>
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limburgisch-Bergisch
<quote>


Limburgisch-Bergisch
aus Wikipedia, der freien Enzyklopädie
Limburgisch-Bergisch (auch Westplatt) ist eine Dialektgruppe des
Südniederfränkischen, deren Dialekte sowohl in Belgien und den Niederlanden
(Limburgs) als auch in Deutschland am mittleren und südlichen Niederrhein,
in Düsseldorf und in Teilen des Bergischen Landes gesprochen werden. Die
Uerdinger Linie trennt das Limburgisch-Bergische von den übrigen
niederdeutschen und niederländischen Mundarten. Zum Limburgisch-Bergischen
zählen folgende Dialekte:

  a.. Westlimburgisch (St. Truiden-Hasselt-Weert)
  b.. Zentrallimburgisch (Tongeren-Maaseik-Panningen)
  c.. Südlimburgisch (St. Maartens-Voeren-Hombourg-Hergenrath-Epen)
  d.. Ostlimburgisch
(Hertogs-Voeren-Sittard-Roermond-Heinsberg-Viersen-Krefeld)
  e.. Bergisch (Düsseldorf-Mülheim an der Ruhr-Solingen-Remscheid-Wuppertal)
Umstritten ist, ob das "Limburgisch-Bergische" als Dialekt des
Niederländischen oder als eigene Sprache aufgefasst werden soll. In den
Niederlanden genießt das "Limburgisch-Bergische" den Status einer
Regionalsprache.

In Deutschland wird das "Limburgisch-Bergische" häufig gemeinsam mit dem
Kleverländischen (einer unbestritten niederländischen Mundart) als
"Niederrheinische" oder "Niederrheinisch-Bergische" Sprache zusammengefasst.
</quote>

Franz,

Unser treuer belgischer Freund Luc Hellinckx schrieb oben, dass bei ihm im
Westbrabantischen St. Martin nicht gefeiert wird, während sich dieses Fest
jedoch im benachbarten Denderstreek (Kreis Aalst) sehr großer Beliebtheit
erfreut.

Weitere Informationen: http://www.meertens.knaw.nl/feesten/sintmaarten.html
Lied mit Ton und Text:
http://www.meertens.knaw.nl/feesten/sintmaartenszingen.html#2

Luc fügte hinzu, dass der Name des Brabantische Mollem wie "Möllem"
ausgesprochen wird und somit dem einheimischen Namen "Mölm" für Mülheim sehr
ähnlich ist.

Wird "Mölm" nicht auch eher wie "Möllem" ausgesprochen?

Groetjes,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 13 21:55:52 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:55:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.13 (05) [E/German]
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUL.2004.145552.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Literature

Franz, folks,

Mathieu hat mir privat mitgeteilt, dass das "g" im Limburgischen "weich"
ausgesprochen wird, etwa wie in deutsch "ich".

Mathieu notified me privately that the Limburgish pronunciation of "g" is
"soft," about like in German _ich_.

Mathieu also gave me some spelling pointers for my Limburgish
transliteration of the Mühlheim Martinmas song.  Below is my revision on
that basis.

I wonder if I should use "ae" instead of "è" ...

Enjoy!
Reinhard/Ron

***
   SINTER MÈTES VEUGELSJE

   Sinter Mètes veugelsje
   heet soe'n roat kapeugelsje.
   Geflogen, gestoven
   wiet, wiet euver dè Rien,
   wò die vetten verkes sien.
   Goed vrau, geef oes wat!
   Aal die hunnerkes legen wat!

   Boven in die vèsje
   hangen die langen weuste.
   Geeft oes die langen!
   Laot die kotten hangen!
   Laot oes ne soe lang hie sjtaon!
   Wei meuten en huuske widder gaon,
   hie van dèn nò Èse,
   hòlen en vetten blèèssen;
   hie väör, dò väör,
   väör die rieke koupmansduer.

      Hier wohnt ein reicher Mann,
      der uns was geben kann,
      viel soll er geben, lang soll er leben,
      selig soll er sterben,
      das Himmelreich erwerben!

   Die maad, die leup die trappen erop,
   pak waal in dè neutesak,
   pak waal ne derneven.
   Se wèd oes waal wat geven.
   Gif wat, haul wat,
   tegen't jaor wir wat.

   Sinter Mètes sjtoepsjtat.
   Sjmiet en appel duar dat gat!
   Sjmiet en ne soe wiet,
   sus vèlt he in en driet.
   Sjmiet en ne soe hat,
   sus vèlt he in et gat!

   Moes, moes, koem eroet!
   Gif oes èppel oen neute!
   Èppel oen neute siend soe goed
   vüär dèn aulen patsvoot!

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 13 23:02:04 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:02:04 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.13 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUL.2004.160204.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Literature

Folks,

Below is another text in a Lowlands Franconian variety of Germany,
apparently in the dialect of either Gladbach (Gläbbääk, Glèbèèk) or Neuss
(Nüß, Nuus), about a political (anti-Prussian) struggle in 1849.

I present it here in my attempt at a Limburgish transliteration.  You can
find the German-based version and the German translation here:
http://www.wdomes.de/1848/maiunruhen.html

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

Dè tsog der Glèbbèker Burgerweer
nao Nuës em jaor 1849

   "Jonges, hoolt dat broeët herop!
   On mar gau en de kaar gesjtop!
   Die burgerweer sjteet hai om maat
   On es to'm trekke al paraat.
   Dat reep en Glèbbèk ene bèkkesjbaas!
   Griep die vlent zech oet dem kaas.
   "Plaats haze sjeet ech huut dè Pruus!
   Wir vare mut voraasj no Nuus!"
   Ze treffe boete zech om maat:
   Dale! Wates on de haat.
   Op Nuisjtroate venge Viësje wier,
   Dat zèt os èeves dè sjtaffeterier.
   Frai wir welle maleke lèeve
   On kene penning sjtuër mie gèeve!
   Freiheit, Gleichheit! Republik!
   Wuëre wier maar die Pruse kwit."
   Van der tribuun do huët mer dat,
   Op d'r maat woer die gesat,
   On die luud mut kloare trakteert,
   On van M e c h e l rait animeert.
   Twaai mut roeë mutskes
   Klumde en d'r toeër;
   Um vuur die klok te trekke,
   Net op wol make dè pastoeër.
   Noe koame ze duur alle poate
   Em blauë kiel heraangesjoate.
   Die vlent, montoer on anger denge,
   Dat daaite ze en Nuus te venge.
   Dagluëner von de iezerbaan,
   Dè Hendrik holde die heraan.
   Die koame mut de sjup om ruk.
   Op klompe mènnige och noch vluk.
   On dè notaar heel noch en reed.
   "Zum Abmarsch!" woad dan kommandeert.
   Roeë bèndsjes, am hoot on um de been,
   Riek on èrm, ze lepe ongereen.
   Votwoarjuus dè letste man,
   Klom da baas op zien gespan;
   Noam noch mut twaai luëze ritter:
   Kauërts Waailern on Bussems Pitter.
   En kotte tied geng alles good.
   D'r ene meek dem angere moot.
   Dat ze kriege kleen da Pruus,
   Dat meke ze zech zelver wis.
   Wie ze noe voare en et Butger Lang,
   Soage ze Leberger uzel mut zang.
   Do repe die kreger: "Dat zend die kanon!"
   On bang on verwongert blieve ze sjton:
   "Allons enfants de la patrie,
   Dè bokseboam da halt net mië!"
   Zie repe hulp en uërer noeët
   On sjloge op die kaar mut broeët
   On riete oet no alle zieë;
   No kaar on pèëd kiek niemes mie.
   Èver och da vusjte trek
   Hot zech unuuslerwies versjrek.
   Zie sjtoave vot no alle zieë,
   Hulane vonge kene mieë.
   Koom als langs Melledonk zie woare,
   Loage ze zech al en die hoare.
   Wolle guk die sjenke aete,
   Die repoebliek woar al vergaete.
   So leep al vuur on no gants husj.
   Da en no'm angere en d'r busj.
   Die boks, die geng mut gronkies drieve.
   "Wuëre wier maar teheem geblieve!"

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 14 04:08:55 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:08:55 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.13 (07) [E/German]
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUL.2004.210855.0700.>

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From: Jan Strunk <strunkjan at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.13 (04) [D/E/German]

Hello,

Mathieu wrote:
> Where exactly is Mühlheim, and does this count for all dialects in the
> Ruhr-area?

This kind of dialect is not at all typical for the Ruhr area. First of all,
nowadays people
in the whole Ruhr area speak a relatively homogenous dialect often called
Ruhrdeutsch which
is basically Standard German on quite a strong Low Franconian and Low Saxon
substrate.
Moreover, most of the Ruhr area was (and still is in very small remnants)
Low Saxon speaking,
the South Westphalian dialect to be precise (all towns west of Bottrop and
north of Essen and the
whole Sauerland). Only small parts of Essen, the whole of Mühlheim and
some even more western towns were/are Low Franconian speaking.

I'll try to give a small translation of a part of the song in Ruhrdeutsch
and Westphalian.

Ruhrdeutsch:
>    Sjmiet en appel duar dat gat!
Schmeiß nen appel durch dat loch
>    Sjmiet en ne soe wiet,
Schmeiß ihn nich so weit
>    sus vèlt he in en driet.
sons fällta inne driete (oder innen dreck)
>    Sjmiet en ne soe hat,
Schmeiß ihn nich so feste
>    sus vèlt he in et gat!
sons fällta int loch

Westphalian (Disclaimer: I am not a native speaker...)
>    Sjmiet en appel duar dat gat!
Smiet en appel düär dat gat
>    Sjmiet en ne soe wiet,
smiet en nich sau wiet
>    sus vèlt he in en driet.
süss falt he inne driete
>    Sjmiet en ne soe hat,
smiet en nich sau hat
>    sus vèlt he in et gat!
süss falt he int gat

Gued gaon!

Jan Strunk
strunk at linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Literature

Thanks for explaining today's linguistic situation in the Ruhr Region above,
Magister Johannes.

North Saxon:
>>    Sjmiet en appel duar dat gat!
>Smiet en appel düär dat gat
Smiet een Appel dör(ch) dat Gatt!
Smyt eyn appel dör(ch) dat gat!

>>    Sjmiet en ne soe wiet,
>smiet en nich sau wiet
Smiet em nich so (~ sau) wiet!
Smyt em nich sou wyd!

>>    sus vèlt he in en driet.
>süss falt he inne driete
Süss fallt he in'n Schiet.
Süs(t) valt hey in d'n schyt.

>>    Sjmiet en ne soe hat,
>smiet en nich sau hat
Smiet em nich so (~ sau) hatt (~ hart)!
Smyt em nich sou hat (~ hart)!

>>    sus vèlt he in et gat!
>süss falt he int gat
Süss fallt he in dat Gatt.
Süs(t) valt hey in dat gat.

Leute,
Um der niederfränkischen und niedersächsischen Begegnung über die
politischen Grenzen hinweg weiterhin dienlich zu sein, liefere ich
untenstehend die vorher gebrachten St.-Martins-Verse aus den Niederlanden in
deutscher Schreibweise.

Folks,
In order to continue helping the Lowlands Franconian and Lowlands Saxon
rendezvous across the political border I am supplying the previously posted
Martinmas verses from the Netherlands with German-based spelling.

Gruß/Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

Niederländisch-Limburg (wo?):
Netherlands Limburg (where?):

>   Sintemertens veugelke
>   Haet n roëd keugelke
>   Haet n blauw stertje
>   Danke, Sintemerte!

   Ssinte Mertens Vögelke
   Hät 'n rooet Kögelke,
   Hät 'n blau Stertje.
   Danke, Ssinte Merte!

Niederländisch-Limburg (wo?):
Netherlands Limburg (where?):

>   Sinte Martens veugeltje,
>   Rood, rood, reugeltje,
>   Rood, rood rokje an,
>   Dat is Sinte Martens man.

   Ssinte Martens Vögeltje,
   Root, root Rögeltje,
   Root, root Rockje an.
   Dat is Ssinte Martens Mann.

Venloo (Niederlande):
Venloo (Netherlands):

>   Sinter Merte's veugelke
>   Hèt ein roët neugelke
>   En ein blouw stertje,
>   Hoepsa, Sinter Merte!

   Ssinter Mertes Vögelke
   Hät äin rooet Nögelke
   En äin blau Stertje.
   Huppsa, Ssinter Merte!

Niederlande (wo?):
Netherlands (where?):

>   Kip, kap, kogel,
>   Sinte Meertens vogel
>   Vloog over dijk, vloog over dam,
>   Kwam een schip met appels an.
>   Zoeten, zuren, kunnen op 't langste duren.
>   Hier woont een rijke man,
>   Die ons wel wat geven kan,
>   Veul zal hij geven, lang zal hij leven,
>   Zalig zal hij sterven,
>   't Koninkrijke beërven
>   Geeft ook wat, 'n appel of 'n peer.
>   Kom veur ankomende jaar niet weêr.

   Kipp, Kapp, Kogel,
   Ssinte Meertens Vogel
   Floog over Däik, floog over Damm,
   Quam een Schipp met Appels an.
   Suten, süren, künnen op 't langste düren.
   Hier wohnt een räike Mann,
   Die ons well wat geven kann.
   Vööl sall häi geven, lang sall häi leven,
   Salig sall häi sterven,
   't Koninkräike be'erven!
   Geeft ook wat, 'n Appel of 'n Peär!
   Komm vöör ankomende Jahr niet weär.

Niedersächsisch von Emden (Drenthe, Niederlande -- nicht von Deutschland!):
Lowlands Saxon of Emden (Drenthe, Netherlands -- not of Germany!):

>   Kip, kap keugel,
>   Sunder-Martens veugel
>   Woel so wiët flegen
>   Al euver den Rün.
>   Hei je Sunder-Martens veugel niet sien?
>   Sunder-Martens gense
>   Sunt ook gaar te bense,
>   Biten de olle wive
>   De titten van den live,
>   Braden ze op 'n reuster,
>   Smekken ze as 'n keuster.
>   D'r vlogen twee robiintjes na 't papenhoes to,
>   Dat papenhoes weer d'r versloten,
>   De himmel stoen speerwijd open.
>   Als Josef oet de schale kwam,
>   He har d'r geen botter,
>   He har d'r geen brood,
>   He lee siin kop in Marye heur schoot.
>   Marye dee har d'r goerrel an,
>   Daar hongen wol doesent klokjes an.
>   De klokjes foengen an to pingelen,
>   Leeve engeltjes foengen an to singen,
>   Van hier an, van daar an.
>   Boven woont de rike man,
>   Dee oens waal wat geven kan.
>   Rike man te pere,
>   Oense lieve Heere
>   Dee let wassen
>   Good koorn oen good flassen,
>   Good koorn oen good liinsaad.
>   Trooke, is dat geen hoesgeraad?

   Kipp, Kapp, Kögel,
   Sünder-Martens Vögel
   Wull so wieet flegen
   All över den Rhüün.
   Häi je Sünder-Martens Vögel niet sien?
   Sünder-Martens Gänse
   Sünd ook gaar te bense,
   Bieten de olle Wieve
   De Titten van den Lieve,
   Braden se op 'n Rööster,
   Smecken se as 'n Kööster.
   D'r flogen twee Robientjes na 't Papenhuus to,
   Dat Papenhuus weer d'r versloten,
   De Himmel stunn speerwiejd open.
   Als Josef ut de Schale quam,
   He harr d'r geen Botter,
   He har d'r geen Broot,
   He lee sien Kopp in Marieje hör Schoot.
   Marieje dee harr d'r Gurrel an.
   Daar hongen woll dusent Klockjes an.
   De Klockjes fungen an to pingelen,
   Leve Engeltjes fungen an to singen,
   Van hier an, van daar an.
   Boven wohnt de rieke Mann,
   Dee uns waal wat geven kann.
   Rieke Mann te Pere,
   Unse lieve Here,
   De lett wassen
   Goot Koorn un goot Flassen,
   Goot Koorn un goot Liensaat.
   Troke, is dat geen Huusgeraat?

Niedersächsisch von Emden (Drenthe, Niederlande -- nicht von Deutschland!):
Lowlands Saxon of Emden (Drenthe, Netherlands -- not of Germany!):

>   Kip, kap keugel,
>   Sunder-Martens veugel
>   Sunder-Martens dikkeboek,
>   Stekt siin eers to 't fenster oet.
>   Hier woont 'n rieke man,
>   Die veul geven kan.
>   Veul kan he geven,
>   Lank zal he leven;
>   Wen he koemt to starven,
>   De hemel sal he arven,
>   God sal 'm lonen
>   Mit hondert-doesend kronen,
>   Mit hondert-doesend klokjes d'r an,
>   Daar koemt Sunder-Marten an.

   Kipp, Kapp, Kögel,
   Sünder-Martens Vögel,
   Sünder-Martens Dickebuuk,
   Steekt sien Eers to 't Fenster ut.
   Hier wohnt 'n rieke Mann,
   Die vööl geven kann.
   Vööl kann he geven,
   Lank sall he leven;
   Wenn he kummt to starven,
   De Hemel sall he arven,
   Gott sall 'm lohnen
   Mit hondert-dusend Kronen,
   Mit hondert-dusend Klockjes dran.
   Daar kummt Sünder-Marten an.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 14 15:08:17 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:08:17 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.07.14 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUL.2004.080817.0700.>

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From: D.M.Pennington <dmpmos at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.06.22 (02) [E]


Sirs:

As regards the plural of fthe English "shoe", my grandmother (born 1902)
used to use the north-west England Lancashire dialect "shoen" in the plural.

The Lancashire dialect, which is also my native dialect, also uses the Old
English for "she", namely "he" which was pronounced with a long "e" rhyming
with modern English "day".

The present Lancashire dialect pronunciation of the Old English feminine
third person singular personal pronoun differs to that of the Old English in
that the vowel sound has shifted to the "schwa" sound.

Hence mayt southern English speakers think that Lancashire dialect speakers
are saying "her" instead of "she".

The "standard" English: "She has a new husband" would sound to a southerner
like: "Her's getten a new mon."!.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 14 15:10:10 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:10:10 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.14 (02) [German]
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUL.2004.081010.0700.>

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From: Franz Firla <f.firla at web.de>
Subject: "Literature"


Hallo Leute,

herzlichen Dank für die Beiträge zum Thema „Ssinter Mätes Vögelsche“. Ich
würde mich freuen, wenn auch  weiterhin dazu noch das ein oder andere zu
erfahren ist.
Zu Rons Frage bezüglich der Aussprache von „Mölm“:
Es stimmt, man spricht es etwas wie „Möllem“ aus, und es wurde um 1920 auch
oft so geschrieben.
Das Umwandeln der Rechtschreibung von Mundartexten in die jeweilige
Bezugssprache (Hochsprache) des heutigen politischen Raumes ist in der Tat
sehr hilfreich beim Vergleich!
Danke auch für diese neue Erfahrung!

Chutt choon

bös doher

Franz

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 14 17:50:27 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:50:27 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.07.14 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUL.2004.105027.0700.>

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From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Morphology


Greetings Lowlanders!

D.M. Pennington wrote:

"The Lancashire dialect, which is also my native dialect, also uses the
Old English for "she", namely "he" which was pronounced with a long "e"
rhyming with modern English "day"."

I don't know what part of Lancashire this usage is from, but I remember my
grandmother's generation still using the third person singular pronoun
_(h)oo_ [with silent _h_, but somehow I always perceived that it was there!]
Although my grandmother and my great aunt lived in Preston I have an idea
that they originated from some country place just outside, but I am fairly
certain that this was true Prestonian usage at one time.

The old form _heo_ for 'she' dropped out of use in most of England in the
12th century; the 1898 edition of the Oxford English Dictionary mentions
that it survived in the south and w. midl. as a literary word till the 15th
c., and is still vernacular from Lancashire to Devon and Sussex, under the
forms hoo, huh (the latter often mistaken for the objective her), uh, u.”

John Duckworth
Preston, UK

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

John (above):

> I don't know what part of Lancashire this usage is from, but I remember
> my grandmother's generation still using the third person singular pronoun
> _(h)oo_ [with silent _h_, but somehow I always perceived that it was
there!]

Might this be due to the absence of a glottal stop ([u:] instead of [?u:])
after pauses?

(This is what happens in certain Hebrew sociolects, by the way, and it
happens to apply in the case of _huw_ > _hu_ הו [hu(:)] -> [u(:)] 'he'.)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 14 23:45:58 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 16:45:58 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.07.14 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUL.2004.164558.0700.>

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From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Morphology


Ron asked:

"Might this [sc. the absence of initial h- in _hoo_ (she) ]be due to the
absence of a glottal stop ([u:] instead of [?u:]) after pauses?"

Although your Modern Hebrew example is interesting, the answer is no, this
is not due to the absence of a glottal stop; the loss of _h_ is normal and
regular in all positions in the Lancashire dialect of English. I suppose the
fact that I used to feel the h- was still there was an influence from
Standard English.

John Duckworth
Preston, UK.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Thanks, John.

Sorry if I seem overly persistent ...  So you are actually saying, aren't
you, that pairs like _heel_ and _eel_, _heart_ and _art_, and _hoar_ and
_oar_ are pronounced alike, with or without glottal stop?  I just want to be
sure there isn't something you hadn't thought about before now.  ;-)

In Hebrew the difference between a deleted /h/ and an "initial" vowel (which
in writing at least would be after an _'alef_ א or an _`ayin_ ע, both [?]
nowadays) is that there is no glottal stop in the case of the former but
there is a glottal stop in the case of the latter.

Similarly, in French an original /h/ in Germanic (and Breton?) loans,
although not sounded, reveals itself by the absence of liaison (e.g., _le
havre_ rather than *_l'havre_).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 14 23:54:45 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 16:54:45 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.07.14 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUL.2004.165445.0700.>

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From: passmarts at ig.com.br <passmarts at ig.com.br>
Subject: Doubt

Everybody, please tell me something about the great vowel shift and how it
affected the Dutch language vowel system.I would also like to know about
dutch short and long vowels.

[Ívison dos Passos Martins]

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 15 14:38:39 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:38:39 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.15 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUL.2004.073839.0700.>

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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: television/radio

Hi lowlanders,

When anybody wants to listen (and look) to Dutch/Flemish news-items, i
just found a very interesting website:

http://www.nieuwsbronnen.com/algemene/index.html

It gives you a large variety of radio  and television adresses where
you can  hear our languages.
One particular story you have to visit is this link:

http://vrtnieuws.telenet-media.be/nieuwsnet_master/default/systeem/
instellingen_telco/index.html?mode=BB_Telenet&player=Windows

Just click on the sentence: Ja, ik wil een test zien.
You'll find a short selection of a  most popular humorous
televisionprogram. Here, it shows you a class where the pupils want to
learn more about computerlanguage, and the teacher explains it all in
West-Flemish! Have a look, and tell me how it sounds.

Groetjes
luc vanbrabant
oekene

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 15 14:40:31 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:40:31 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.07.15 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUL.2004.074031.0700.>

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From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Morphology [E/N]

Dear all,

Use of the word her. In Northumbrian we say 'hor',
unfortunately pronounced in the same way as a dodgy
lady of the night. Whether this is a corruption of her
or has evolved from the same Lancastrian lineage, I'm
not sure, although Lancaster is part of the wider
northern dialect area.

tek id easy,
Glenn

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 15 14:42:03 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:42:03 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.07.15 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUL.2004.074203.0700.>

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From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Phonology


Ron said:

"Sorry if I seem overly persistent ...  So you are actually saying, aren't
you, that pairs like _heel_ and _eel_, _heart_ and _art_, and _hoar_
and _oar_ are pronounced alike, with or without glottal stop?  I just want
to be sure there isn't something you hadn't thought about before now. ".

True, I haven't thought about it until now, but I still don't think it has
much to do with the presence or otherwise of the glottal stop.The glottal
stop actually performs an important function in the Lancashire Dialect,
often replacing the definite article; this is still often the case in the
very eroded version of the dialect that is spoken today. I have tried
considering whether there is any difference between pairs with etymological
h- or without it when preceded by the article, but it seems to me that there
is not.

Before consonants the definite article is often just a glottal stop /'/, as
in: / am goin t@ ' taun / (I am going to THE town) as opposed to / am goin
t@ taun / (I am going to town).

When I was a child the definite article before a vowel was represented by /
'th / (where th is the theta / thorn sound): / 'thowd man towd me / (the old
man told me). I think it is right to say that the glottal stop may have been
dropped in places. Another variant, which I think may have been an older
version, was to say / t' owd man / (the old man), in which case I am fairly
certain the glottal stop followed the / t /-sound, rather than preceded it.

Now, to get back to h-, in words written with h-, we get the article that
normally precedes vowels. Thus: / i fel in 'th o:l / (he fell in(to) the
hole ) [also / i fel int@ 'th o:l ]. There may be cases today where people
might treat such words as beginning in a consonant, and saying / in ' o:l /,
but these may be a kind of hypercorrection, because I don't remember them
from earlier decades. Of course, some words written with h- followed by a
vowel actually begin with a consonant once the h- isn't pronounced, such as
_huge_, so we would say / in ' yu:j o:l / (in the huge hole).

John Duckworth
Preston, UK


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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 15 15:23:16 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:23:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.07.15 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUL.2004.082316.0700.>

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From: D.M.Pennington <dmpmos at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.07.14 (03) [E]


Dear Sirs:

Sorry!

Slip of the pen!

The Old English for "she" was, indeed, "heo".

I mistakenly wrote previously that "he" (rhyming with Modern English "day")
was the Old English for "she"; I should have written that Old English "he"
gave, after the vowel shift, the Modern English "he".

The Lancashire pronunciation of the modified Old English "heo" that I
referred to is that of the Wigan-Leigh area; this pronunciation sounds like
"her" with a dropped "h" and , as I mentioned previously, sounds to non
Lancastrians as though the speaker is using the third person singular
feminine personal pronoun instead of the standard subject form "she", e.g.
"Her's getten a mard lip!"

I've also heard this dialect usage of the archeic "heo" in the Wolverhampton
area of the West Midlands which leads me to think that the Mercians may have
been the most linguistically conservative of Old English speakers.

The Mercians were, at any rate, extremely conservative in another respect,
namely that they were the last of the Old English to convert to
christianity, and stubbornly fought for years against Christian Northumbrian
incursions.

D.M.Pennington

Moscow

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 15 16:04:06 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:04:06 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2004.07.15 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUL.2004.090406.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Administrativia

Dear Lowlanders,

A number of people have joined us since my last administrative message (July
1), and I would like to welcome them on everyone's behalf.  At the end of
this message you will find a list of their places of residence.  Please bear
in mind that many of our subscribers live in places and countries in which
they are not native.  In fact, with regard to languange, ethnicity and
nationality our group is more diverse than a mere list of places of
residence seems to indicate.

These few weeks our subscription rate has been on the increase, rising above
our usual average number.  In other words, there have been more people
getting on board than getting off.  This comes as a bit of a surprise, given
that in previous years the number of subscribers tended to go down during
the Northern Hemisphere summer.  In part this could be due to the
convenience of requesting vacation status (as mentioned farther below) and
to an increase in computer users generally.

Please, folks, read and understand the rules and guidelines!  It's really
important.

Rules and Guidelines:
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Even some people who have been with us for a while persistently ignore the
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TEMPORARY ABSENCE
Before you take a trip or for some other reason need to stop LL-L mail
arriving for a given length of time, please write to us
(lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net) to let us know the date you want mail to be
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attest, this has been working really well, certainly beats the old, crude
method of signing off and on again. Once in a while people find themselves
unsubscribed without notice. Some of them immediately suspect the worst:
that I have "booted them out" for some infraction or other. (I know this for
sure only about those that contact me.) Please do not jump to this
conclusion unless you have received prior reprimands and warnings (which has
occurred very rarely, not at all for well over one year). If you find
yourself disconnected from Lowlands-L, the reason is most likely that the
automated server has unsubscribed your address because of repeated
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that you cannot be reached or is filled above quota. Most of the time this
is due to temporary disconnection. Sometimes the reason is that a
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if all of the above fails. Should you indeed be disconnected, please write
to me or resubmit an application
(http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=subscription). I'll be more than
happy to bring you swiftly back to the fold.

Again, dear Lowlanders, thanks for your support and cooperation and for all
those interesting contributions past and future!

Nine months to go till our 10th anniversary ...

Regards,
Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
Founder & Administrator, Lowlands-L
lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
http://www.lowlands-l.net

***

Places of Residence of New Lowlanders since July 1, 2004:

     Australia:
          Queensland:
               Brisbane [1]
     Belgium:
          Antwerp (Antwerpen):
               Antwerp (Antwerpen) [1]
               Antwerpen-Deurne [1]
               Mortsel [1]
          Eastern Flanders (Oost-Vlaanderen):
               Herzele [1]
          Western Flanders (West-Vlaondern):
               Blankenberge [1]
               Izegem [1]
               Tielt [1]
     Brazil:
          São Paulo:
               São Paulo [1]
     Cayman Islands:
          Grand Cayman:
               George Town [1]
     France:
          Morbihan:
               Questembert [1]
     Germany:
          North-Rhine-Westphalia (Nordrhein-Westfalen):
               Mühlheim an der Ruhr [1]
     India:
          Pondicherry:
               Pakkamudian Pet [1]
     Netherlands:
          South Holland (Zuid-Holland):
               Rotterdam [1]
     Romania:
          Bucharest (Bucureşti)
               Bucharest (Bucureşti) [1]
     South Africa:
          Gauteng:
               Pretoria [1]
          Western Cape Province:
               Kaapstad/Cape Town [1]
     United Kingdom of Britain and Northern Ireland:
          England:
               Cumbria:
                    Penrith [1]
          Scotland:
               Lanarkshire:
                    East Kilbride [1]
               Perthshire:
                    Blackford [1]
     United States of America:
          Washington:
               Oak Harbor [1]



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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 15 18:30:10 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:30:10 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.15 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUL.2004.113010.0700.>

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From: Mathieu van Woerkom <mathieu at brabants.org>
Subject: Literature

Ron wrote:

> Mathieu also gave me some spelling pointers for my Limburgish
> transliteration of the Mühlheim Martinmas song.  Below is my revision on
> that basis.
>
> I wonder if I should use "ae" instead of "è" ...

I think you should! Below is my transcription of the Martinmas song, into
Limburgisch spelling system. I made just a few changes to your version.

By the way, is there also a German (or Dutch) translation available? That
way, I might be able to make a Limburgish version of this song, so show the
similarities between Lim. and the dialect of Mühlheim even more.

Regards,
Mathieu

PS: I have heard before that the dialects of the neighboring parts of
Germany have a lot in common with Limburgish. This counts especially for the
area of Selfkant, and the areas just over the border ("euver de päöl") near
the city of Venlo (Nettetal etc.). However, as far as I know, not much
dialect is spoken in those areas anymore.


======

SINTER MAETES VEUGELSJE

Sinter Maetes veugelsje
heet soe'n raod kapeugelsje.
Gevloge, gesjtove
wied, wied euver dae Rien,
wo die vette verkes sien.
Goed vrouw, geef oes wat!
Aal die hunnerkes lege wat!

Baoven in die vaesje
hangen die lange weuste.
Geeft oes die lange!
Laot die kotte hange!
Laot oes nee soe lang hie sjtaon!
Wei meuten en huuske widder gaon,
hie vandaen nao Aesse,
haolen en vettem blaesen;
hieveur, daoveur,
veur die rieke koupmansduer.

Die maad, die löp die trappen erop,
pak waal in dae neutezak,
pak waal nee d’rneve.
Se waed oes waal wat geve.
Gif wat, haul wat,
tegen't jaor wir wat.

Sinter Maetes sjtoepsjtat.
Sjmiet ‘n appel duar dat gat!
Sjmiet ‘n nee soe wiet,
sus vèlt hee in ‘n driet.
Sjmiet ‘n nee soe hat,
sus vèlt hee in ‘t gat!

Moes, moes, koem eroet!
Gif oes èppel oen neute!
Èppel oen neute siend soe goed
veur den aulen patsvoot!

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Literature

Thanks, Mathieu!

But didn't you forget a few instances of "è"?

Below my update:


SINTER MAETES VEUGELSJE

Sinter Maetes veugelsje
heet soe'n raod kapeugelsje.
Gevloge, gesjtove
wied, wied euver dae Rien,
wo die vette verkes sien.
Goed vrouw, geef oes wat!
Aal die hunnerkes lege wat!

Baoven in die vaesje
hangen die lange weuste.
Geeft oes die lange!
Laot die kotte hange!
Laot oes nee soe lang hie sjtaon!
Wei meuten en huuske widder gaon,
hie vandaen nao Aese,
haolen en vettem blaesen;
hieveur, daoveur,
veur die rieke koupmansduer.

Die maad, die löp die trappen erop,
pak waal in dae neutezak,
pak waal nee d'rneve.
Se waed oes waal wat geve.
Gif wat, haul wat,
tegen't jaor wir wat.

Sinter Maetes sjtoepsjtat.
Sjmiet 'n appel duar dat gat!
Sjmiet 'n nee soe wiet,
sus vaelt hee in 'n driet.
Sjmiet 'n nee soe hat,
sus vaelt hee in 't gat!

Moes, moes, koem eroet!
Gif oes aeppel oen neute!
Aeppel oen neute siend soe goed
veur den aulen patsvoot!


> By the way, is there also a German (or Dutch) translation available? That
> way, I might be able to make a Limburgish version of this song, so show
the
> similarities between Lim. and the dialect of Mühlheim even more.

If there isn't, I understand all but the following words.  Perhaps someone
can help with those.

kapeugelsje (hood, crest?)
gesjtove
vaesje
blaesen
haul (fetch? bring?)
sjtoepsjtat
patsvoot

By the way, it would be neat if people who deal with Limburgish would
present to the Limburgish language community some of this sort of material
from obviously very closely related varieties of Germany.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 16 14:27:41 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:27:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.07.16 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUL.2004.072741.0700.>

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From: D.M.Pennington <dmpmos at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.07.15 (03) [E]


Dear Lancastrians and any other intereted parties:

For me, the classic example of the glottal stop in Lancashire is the
Lancastrian rendition of: "It isn't in the tin" which sounds like: "Tin tin
tin"!

D.M.Pennington

Moscow

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 16 15:22:32 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:22:32 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.16 (02) [E/German]
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUL.2004.082232.0700.>

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From: Franz Firla <f.firla at web.de>
Subject: Literature


Hallo Leute,

eine Übersetzung des Textes und auch Erläuterungen und "even more" befindet
sich unter der von mir bereits angegebenen Internetadresse.
Hier die spezielle Seite:
http://www.muelheim-ruhr.de/text_und_uebersetzung.html

Zu den einzelnen Wörtern:

kapeugelsje (hood, crest?) = kleine Kaputze, von lat. cappa
gesjtove = gestoben, von auseinanderfliegen
vaesje = Fäsche, Dachgebälk, First, wo früher die Würste hingen
blaesen = Blässe, eine Kuh mit weißer Stirnzeichnung
haul (fetch? bring?) = holen
sjtoepsjtat = Stummelschwanz, abgeschnittener Schwanz
patsvoot = Pferdefuß, Zeichen des Teufels, vor dem Mittelalter: Pan


viel Spaß

Grüße

Franz


----------

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Literature

Thanks, Franz.

Here is my translation into English (with notes):

   St. Martin's birdies --
   (Had) Wore such little red hoods --
   Have flown, have scattered
   Far, far across the Rhine,
   Where the fat pigs are.

   Dear lady, give us something.
   All chickens lay something.
   Long sausages are hanging
   Up under the rafters.
   Give us the long ones,
   and leave the short ones hanging.
   Don't let us standing here all that long.
   We've got to go on to the next house.

   From here to Essen
   To get a fat cow with a blaze. [1]

   In front of this, in front of that,
   In front of the rich merchant's door.

   <German>
      Here lives a wealthy man
      That can give us something.
      Much shall he give!
      Long shall he live!
      Blessed shall he die,
      Shall inherit heaven.
   </German>

   The maid runs up the stairs,
   Puts her hand into the bag of nuts,
   Hopefully won't miss.
   Hopefully will give us something.
   Give something, hold [onto] something,
   Next year again something.

   St. Martin's stubby tail! [2]
   Throw the apple through he hole!
   Don't throw it too far,
   Or it'll fall into the muck.
   Don't throw it too hard,
   Or it'll fall into the hole.
   Mouse, mouse, come on out! [3]
   Give us apples and nuts!
   Apples and nuts are so good
   For warding off the old Horse's Foot. [4]

[1] Äässe-Bläässe: reference to Essen's cattle market
[2] reference to a Rhenish custom
[3] reference to exterminating vermin by means of brushwood and straw
[4] the devil

If the owner gives the children nothing, they sing:

   Dat Huus, dat steiht op einem Pinn,
   do wonnt dä chitzige (soa un soa) drinn!

   Dat hoes, dat staait op aainem pin.
   Dao wont dae gitsige (zoa oen zoa) d'r in.

   The house stands on a single pin/peg.
   Miserly [name] lives in it.

By the way, that's a nice website of the city of Mühlheim
(http://www.muelheim-ruhr.de/).  Nice also that there are an English version
and a French version besides the German one.  I just wish that, given the
neighborhood, there were a version in Dutch, if not in Limburgish also.  If
the city is interested in creating such versions, perhaps a couple of our
subscribers could be recruited.

Übrigens ist das eine nette Website der Stadt von Mühlheim
(http://www.muelheim-ruhr.de/). Schön ist es auch, daß eine englische und
eine französische Version außer der deutschen geboten werden. Wenn man
allerdings die Nachbarschaft bedenkt, wäre es nett, wenn es auch eine
niederländische Version gäbe, wenn nicht sogar eine limburgische. Sollte die
Stadt daran interessiert sein, könnten vielleicht einige von unseren
Abonnenten dafür angeworben werden.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Jul 17 15:51:15 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 08:51:15 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.17 (01) [D]
Message-ID: <SAT.17.JUL.2004.085115.0700.>

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From: Mathieu van Woerkom <mathieu at brabants.org>
Subject: resources

Beste Laaglanders,

De Nederlandse provincie Noord-Brabant heeft (via de Stichting het Brabants)
sinds kort een streektaalfunctionaries aangesteld, zie persbericht
hieronder:

-------------

Met ingang van 1 juli 2004 is dr. Jos Swanenberg (36) uit 's-Hertogenbosch
door Stichting het Brabants aangesteld als streektaalfunctionaris. De
streektaalfunctionaris is een coördinator ten behoeve van de Noord-Brabantse
dialecten en werkt in het Erfgoedhuis Noord-Brabant in 's-Hertogenbosch,
behalve op vrijdag, wanneer hij op de Katholieke Universiteit Nijmegen
werkt.
De streektaalfunctionaris zal zich bezighouden met het verspreiden en
verwerven van kennis over Brabantse dialecten; dat wil zeggen dat hij
informatie beschikbaar stelt en onderzoek doet. Hij kan dus inspelen op
vragen over Brabantse dialecten en hij ondersteunt indien nodig bestaande
dialectactiviteiten of begint nieuwe activiteiten. U kunt de
streektaalfunctionaris bereiken via josswanenberg at erfgoedbrabant.nl of tel.
073-6156282.

http://www.erfgoedbrabant.nl
http://www.brabants.org

--------------

Groeten,
Mathieu

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Jul 18 20:19:12 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 13:19:12 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.07.18 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.18.JUL.2004.131912.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Dear Lowlanders,

Last week we talked about Mühlheim (Mölm) on the Ruhr river, a city in
Germany near the Netherlands border at Limburg.

My penny was once again slow to drop.  I admit this to demonstrate how
orthographic differences can throw a person off, how such differences can
obscure relationships that otherwise might be obvious.

I take it that the name of the river called _Ruhr_ in German is spelled
_Roer_ in Limburgish and Dutch (German _uh_ and Dutch _oe_ denoting the same
sound [u:], as in "tour").  If so, I further assume that the name of the
Limburgish city of Roermond means "Roer Mouth" (_Ruhrmündung_ in German),
with "mouth" as in Plymouth, Yarmouth, etc.  Is this correct?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Jul 18 22:13:58 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:13:58 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.07.18 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.18.JUL.2004.151358.0700.>

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From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.07.18 (01) [E]

R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> wrote:
 >
> I take it that the name of the river called _Ruhr_ in German is spelled
> _Roer_ in Limburgish and Dutch (German _uh_ and Dutch _oe_ denoting the
same
> sound [u:], as in "tour").
 >
No, that's not correct. The river Ruhr and Roer are 2 separate rivers.
The river Roer is actually called Rur (without the h) in Germany.

 > If so, I further assume that the name of the
> Limburgish city of Roermond means "Roer Mouth" (_Ruhrmündung_ in German),
> with "mouth" as in Plymouth, Yarmouth, etc.  Is this correct?
>
That it does. Exept it'd be _Rurmündung_ in Germany, again without the h.

Henry

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Names

Beste Ron,

> I take it that the name of the river called _Ruhr_ in German
> is spelled _Roer_ in Limburgish and Dutch (German _uh_ and
> Dutch _oe_ denoting the same sound [u:], as in "tour").  If
> so, I further assume that the name of the Limburgish city of
> Roermond means "Roer Mouth" (_Ruhrmündung_ in German), with
> "mouth" as in Plymouth, Yarmouth, etc.  Is this correct?

You're definitely right, but the Ruhr-river like in "Mülheim an der Ruhr" is
another river than in "Roermond". Mülheim is located on the right bank of
the river Rhine, whereas the Roer-river, like in Roermond (cf. "Ruregemunde"
in 1130), is on the left bank. This Roer originates in the German-speaking
part of Belgium (Bütgenbach), flows through the German cities of Düren and
Jülich and then finally hits Roermond, where it runs into the Maas. Rivers
that are called "Roer" (and the like) get their names because they are
swift-flowing, cf. "roeren" (D), "rühren" (G), "to stir" (E), and "hrôr"
(Old English), meaning "movement".

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.07.18 (01) [E]

Ron,
Everybody will indeed explain you, that "monde" means mouth. In dutch
the official word is monding.
But even in the north of France you have Germanic toponyms like f.e.
Deulemont near Lille. It is not a mount or mont, but a "mond", - in this
particular case the mouth or "mond" of the river Deule.
In Flanders you have several "monde" toponyms , like f.e. Rupelmonde,
Dendermonde.

Denis Dujardin

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Thank you so much for your responses (above), Henry, Luc and Denis!

Henry:

> No, that's not correct. The river Ruhr and Roer are 2 separate rivers.
> The river Roer is actually called Rur (without the h) in Germany.

Luc:

> You're definitely right, but the Ruhr-river like in "Mülheim an der Ruhr"
> is another river than in "Roermond".

I could have looked at a map, couldn't I?  ;-)  But by the time the penny
had dropped I had become so sure about my "discovery" that I didn't bother
...

Luc:

> Rivers that are called "Roer" (and the like) get their names because they
> are swift-flowing, cf. "roeren" (D), "rühren" (G), "to stir" (E), and
"hrôr"
> (Old English), meaning "movement".

So the Roer (German _Rur_) and the Ruhr may be two rivers bearing the same
name.  Right?

Denis:

> Everybody will indeed explain you, that "monde" means mouth. In dutch
> the official word is monding.

In the North Saxon dialects of Lowlands Saxon (Low German) it tends to be
_mün_ (usually written <Münn> in German-based spelling).  I am not sure if
it comes from _munde_ (> münde > münne > mün, as in the place name G.
Travemünde, LS _Travemünn_ "mouth of the Trave river") or from _münnen_
(pronounced [mY.n(:)]).*   So you say for instance _Elv-mün_ (_Elvmünn_) for
'mouth of river Elbe'.

* _Münnen_ would be a nominalized infinitive, which in the modern dialects
tends to replace verb-derived nouns ending with old _-ing_ (German _-ung_,
English _-ing_).  In most dialects, _-ing_ has disappeared.  (I think it's
still widely used in Eastern Friesland, Oldenburg and other areas near the
Netherlands border.)  The German suffix _-ung_ tends to be used with German
loans only but tends to be avoided also; thus _rekening_ > _reken_ (G.
Rechnung) 'reckoning', 'bill', _regering_ > _regeren_ (G. Regierung)
'government', översetting > översetten 'translation', but German-derived
_satzung_ (formerly _wet_, still used in some dialects) 'statutes'.

Regards,
Reuinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul 19 02:59:04 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:59:04 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.18 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.18.JUL.2004.195904.0700.>

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Etymology

Beste liëglanners,

Films like "Shrek" and "Lord of the Rings" seem to have one important
character in common, and that's the revival of "Orcus". Linguistically at
least. "Orcus" is the Roman God of death and the underworld, and has come to
us in many shapes and forms, during the last two thousand years:

"ogre" (E, 18th century) < "ogre" (French, early 14th century < *orc) ~
"orco" (Italian, bogeyman) ~ "ör(re)k" (B) (harsh and callous person,
tyrant, 16th century, but still in use today) ~ "orke" (Middle High German)
~ "(n)org" (elfish creature in many (South?) German(ic) folk tales, the
initial _n_ can result from the final n of the article preceding it) ~ "Orc"
(Tolkien)

Whether the killer whale "orc(a)" is also related to this family, is not
sure. Maybe the maker of the tv-series "Mork and Mindy" (in the late 70's)
was also inspired by "Orc", when he created "Mork from Ork" (played by Robin
Williams; Ork was a planet where the inhabitants had very different
feelings...if any *s*)?

There's another word that has puzzled me lately, "camelot" being the case.
In Brabantish, "kammelot" is used for anything which is low-quality and
inferior, "ersatz" we also say (< German occupation during WW2). "Camelot"
used to be an expensive fabric from the Middle East however (made of camel
hair...hence the name), but quite soon cheap imitation stuff started
circulating and so it got a bad name. Now I wonder if there could be any
relationship with king Arthur's Camelot...and if so, how???

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul 19 16:11:19 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:11:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.19 (01) [E]
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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.18 (03) [E]

Beste Luc Hellinckx

Subject: Etymology

> Films like "Shrek" and "Lord of the Rings" seem to have one important
> character in common, and that's the revival of "Orcus". Linguistically at
> least. "Orcus" is the Roman God of death and the underworld, and has come
to
> us in many shapes and forms, during the last two thousand years:

> "ogre" (E, 18th century) < "ogre" (French, early 14th century < *orc) ~
> "orco" (Italian, bogeyman) ~ "ör(re)k" (B) (harsh and callous person,
> tyrant, 16th century, but still in use today) ~ "orke" (Middle High
German)
> ~ "(n)org" (elfish creature in many (South?) German(ic) folk tales, the
> initial _n_ can result from the final n of the article preceding it) ~
"Orc"
> (Tolkien)

Well, in Afrikaans schoolboy slang, to call someone an 'urk' - [@rk] is to
denounce him as a graceless monstrosity. I have never found that word in a
dictionary, but my mother a & grandmother knew it, though they denied ever
using it! So use goes back to before 'The Hobbit' & 'The Lord of the Rings'.

That is not the only insinuation of S. African 'schoolboy language' into
Tolkien's books. Here is another, from the Hobbit, where Bilbo teases the
spiders in Mirkwood to a frenzy by singing a song calling them 'attercop',
Afrikaans 'etterkop' - (pus-head) . This word was identified to his
correspondants by Tolkien as from Old English 'Aetercop' - (poison head);
suitable for an adder or a spider, but sure'nuff in his childhood in
Bloemfontein, the use of that word would have reduced the entire school
playground to a shocked & echoing silence.

> There's another word that has puzzled me lately, "camelot" being the case.
> In Brabantish, "kammelot" is used for anything which is low-quality and
> inferior, "ersatz" we also say (< German occupation during WW2). "Camelot"
> used to be an expensive fabric from the Middle East however (made of camel
> hair...hence the name), but quite soon cheap imitation stuff started
> circulating and so it got a bad name. Now I wonder if there could be any
> relationship with king Arthur's Camelot...and if so, how???

Could the Arthurian 'Camelot' have something to with the Romano-British
'Camelodinum'?

Groete,
Mark

----------

From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.18 (03) [E]

Hello Luc,

You wrote "the initial _n_ can result from the final n of the article
preceding it". You seem to assume that Dutch words 'nurk, nurks', East
Brabant 'nörk' "grumbler, grumpy and unfriendly person" were derived from
the adjective 'ork', Kiliaan 'orck' next to 'norck', Middle Dutch 'norke'
"surly, grumpy". This view is not supported by Franck/Van Wijk's
Etymologisch Woordenboek, which states "Kil. norck  enz. is bezwaarlijk een
jongere, naast Kil. orck, als znw. Nog zuidndl. dial. [..], opgekomen vorm."
To me it is unclear which form was original and which secondary.

Best regards,

Roger Hondshoven

----------

From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Etymology

Luc said:

"There's another word that has puzzled me lately, "camelot" being the
case."

Strangely, I don't think the name _Camelot_ appears in the earlier accounts
of King Arthur. It is difficult though not to see in it the Romano-British
place name (Colonia) Camulodunum, a city now known as Colchester in Essex.
Various attempts have been made to identify KIng Arthur's Camelot with
Cadbury Castle (the largest ancient hillfort in Somerset) and with the Welsh
town of Caerleon, but can there really be any doubt that Camelot <
Camelodunum.

Camelodunum incidentally comes from the name of a Celtic god of war Camulos,
and hence means 'Fort (dun) of Camulos'.

Regarding the cloth of which you speak, Grimms Deutsche Woerterbuch gives it
as: Kamelott, Kamelot or Camelott, and defines it as a material originally
made of camel wool, but which now usually refers to a half-woolen material.
The word also occurs as French camelot / chamelot; Spanish camelote; Italian
cambellotto, ciambelotto; and English camlet / camelot.

The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary gives Camlet, which at first referred
to a very fine, opulent cloth from the east, but was later used to refer to
a less expensive material. It gives the etymology as being from the Arabic
khamlah (  nap, the pile of velvet).(Nap < Middle Dutch = a hairy or downy
surface [on cloth]).

The two words are therefore not related.

John Duckworth
Preston, UK

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Roger (above):

> East Brabant 'nörk' "grumbler, grumpy and unfriendly person"

I wonder if this one is related to German _nörgeln_ 'to grumble', 'to
complain', 'to criticize' (which is attested only since the 17th century).

Luc Hellinckx wrote yesterday under "Names":

> Rivers
> that are called "Roer" (and the like) get their names because they are
> swift-flowing, cf. "roeren" (D), "rühren" (G), "to stir" (E), and "hrôr"
> (Old English), meaning "movement".

Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _röyren_ (<röhren> [rø:3`n] ~ [ry:3`n]) 'to
stir', 'to move'.

'Stir' applies in both senses: (1) transitive: to stir = to mix, (2)
intransitive: to stir = to move.

The _Herkunftsduden_ (which I do not entirely trust when it comes to
non-German items) gives Old English _hroe^ran_ (ligature oe with a macron).
Can anyone think of any Modern English and/or Scots derivation of this?

Furthermore, Old Saxon has _hro^r_ 'busy' (= 'diligent'), and Old Englsh has
_hro^r_ 'busy' (= 'diligent'), 'strong', 'courageous'.

Supposedly this goes back to Indo-European *_k^er(@)-_ 'to mix'.  I don't
understand how the extra /r/ got into the mix, though.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul 19 21:42:02 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:42:02 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.19 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.19.JUL.2004.144202.0700.>

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.19 (01) [E]

Dear Ron & All,

 Subject: Etymology

> > East Brabant 'nörk' "grumbler, grumpy and unfriendly person"

> I wonder if this one is related to German _nörgeln_ 'to grumble', 'to
> complain', 'to criticize' (which is attested only since the 17th century).

We, in Afrikaans, use the word 'nors' for one who is surly, crusty,
cantankerous & a whole lot more besides. I thought it had something to do
with our experiences at the hands of Norsemen, (See Aegil's Saga, raiding in
the Netherlands)

> > Rivers that are called "Roer" (and the like) get their names because
they areswift-flowing, cf. "roeren" (D),  > >"rühren" (G), "to stir" (E),
and "hrôr" (Old English), meaning "movement".

> Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _röyren_ (<röhren> [rø:3`n] ~ [ry:3`n]) 'to
> stir', 'to move'.

> The _Herkunftsduden_ (which I do not entirely trust when it comes to
> non-German items) gives Old English _hroe^ran_ (ligature oe with a
macron).
> Can anyone think of any Modern English and/or Scots derivation of this?

We have this from the Old English poem, 'Ardstapa' - The Wanderer, line 4
Hreren mid hondum    hrimcealde sae
(Row with [my] hands    rime-cold sea)
 but 'roar' is a word that originally belongs to water, as in the psalm,
PSALM 46, 3 {King James}
'Though the waters thereof roar, & be troubled,'

In Afrikaans we say 'roei' for row; 'roer' for stir & move

Yrs sincerely,
Mark

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Dag, Mark!

>  but 'roar' is a word that originally belongs to water, as in the psalm,
> PSALM 46, 3 {King James}
> 'Though the waters thereof roar, & be troubled,'

I take "to roar" to belong to a different group of apparently
onomatopoetically derived cognates: Old English _rārian_, Middle Saxon
_rāren_ ~ _rēren_ > Modern Saxon _raren_ ~ _reren_ (<rahren> ~ <rohren> ~
<rehren>), Middle Dutch _reeren_, Old German _rērēn_ > Middle German _rēren_
> Modern German _röhren_ (of male deer during the rut), apparently related
to Slavic words like Russian раять _rajat'_ 'to sound (loudly)' and
Indo-Aryan words such as Sanskrit रायित _rāyati_ '(he/she/it) barks'.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul 19 22:20:55 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:20:55 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.19 (03) [E]
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Folks,

I have been wondering about the phrase "... across the Rhine" in a couple of
Martinmas song versions we have been discussing:

Lowlands Franconian of Mölm/Mühlheim on Ruhr, Germany:

>    Ssinter Määtes Vöögelsche
>    heet ssu'n roat Kapöögelsche,
>    cheflooge, chestoowe
>    wiet, wiet ööwer dä Rhien,
>    woo die fette Ferkes ssien.
>   ...

>    St. Martin's birdies --
>    (Had) Wore such little red hoods --
>    Have flown, have scattered
>    Far, far across the Rhine,
>    Where the fat pigs are.
>   ...

Lowlands Saxon of Emden (Drenthe, Netherlands)

>   Kip, kap keugel,
>   Sunder-Martens veugel
>   Woel so wiët flegen
>   Al euver den Rün.
>   Hei je Sunder-Martens veugel niet sien?
>   ...

   Kipp, kapp, keugel (spheres, balls?),
   St. Martin's birds
   Were going to flow so far away
   All over the Rhine.
   Haven't you seen St. Martin's birds?
   ...

Is this only a device to indicate something like "far away" or is it a
reference to historical events, as has been claimed to be the case with
other parts of these songs.

I ought to be safe to assume that this song inventory is an areal one, the
exact origin being unknown.  As far as I can tell, variants of the song are
found on both sides of the Rhine.  So we need to ask "across the Rhine in
which direction, east or west?"

Might this refer to medieval (mostly 12-13th century) migration of Saxons,
Franks and various other Germanic people to predominantly Slavonian-speaking
areas of the east, then touted as the land of milk and honey, ripe for the
picking (as were the Slavs, who were "pagans" and therefore considered fair
game)?

And do the red hoods refer to anything other than birds' crests?

Does anyone have an inkling about any reference to historical events here?
Franz Firla's annotations to the Mölm/Mühlheim version do seem to point to
petrified historical references.

Just wondering ...

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul 19 23:50:35 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:50:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Oral tradition" 2004.07.19 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.19.JUL.2004.165035.0700.>

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: "In the media" [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: In the media
>
> must be taken with a couple of grains of salt.  Nevertheless, it is
> interesting in that it goes beyond the traditional story by incorporating
> some more recent research findings which point toward Arthur having been a
> part-British (i.e., Brython, Pictish) and part-Roman officer in Roman
employ
> who attempted to fill the void when the Romans withdrew from Britain and
the

I'm not really up to date on the theories of Arthur, but I've often wondered
why  Arthurs Seat (a large promontory of volcanic rock within the city of
Edinburgh) is so called.

Also, why is there such a strong tradition of Merlin in Berwickshire in the
Scottish Borders? They have "Merlin's Cave", for example, and a local
tradition that particularly associates Merlin with the river Tweed.

And why do archeologists still keep digging in Wales for evidence of Arthur
when they never manage to find anything? The idea that Avalon or Camelot was
at Glastonbury in Somerset is an obvious linguistic gaffe - Arthur was said
to have built a city of glass, but the "glas" in Glastonbury refers to the
woad that used to be grown there (cf Welsh "glas" - "blue/grey/green").

I was wondering if perhaps, like the works of other Welsh poets, stories of
Arthur were taken to Wales by refugees from the Lothians when the Brythonic
kingdom there fell to the Northumbrians? Does the name "Arthurs Seat" go
back a long way?

I'm prepared to accept that Merlin might have been a real person - he could
have been a "wizard" in the same sense as other Scottish "wizards" such as
Michael Scot and John Napier, scholars whose abilities were so remarkable
that the general populace credited them with magical powers.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul 19 23:58:18 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:58:18 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.19 (05) [E]
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From: Patrick or Cynthia Karl <pkarl at grasshoppernet.com>
Subject: Etymology

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

I take "to roar" to belong to a different group of apparently
onomatopoetically derived cognates: Old English _rārian_, Middle Saxon
_rāren_ ~ _rēren_ > Modern Saxon _raren_ ~ _reren_ (<rahren> ~ <rohren> ~
<rehren>), Middle Dutch _reeren_, Old German _rērēn_ > Middle German _rēren_
But note the etymology from the OED entry for the 2nd  instance of roar, n:
Forms: a. 5–6 roore, 5–7 rore. b. 6 roare.  [a. MDu. roer, = OS. hrôra (LG.
rôre, rôr), OHG. ruora (MHG. ruore, G. ruhr), related to OE. and OS. hrór
stirring, active: see also rore v. and cf. uproar. The rime of rore: pore (=
poor) in Chaucer proves that the word is different from roar n.1]

This seems semantically and phonetically to be a pretty good match to G.
ruehren.  I don't understand the OED's "G. ruhr" reference, unless it's to
the Ruhr Valley.  Do we know the etymology of that?

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, Patrick or Cynthia (whichever of you sent this).

> This seems semantically and phonetically to be a pretty good match to G.
ruehren.

Indeed!  Note also German _Aufruhr_, Dutch and Afrikaans _oproer_ and
Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _uprour_ (<Uprohr>) ~ _oprour_ (<Oprohr>)
'uproar', 'revolt', 'rebellion'.  So it's a "stirring up."

We might be dealing with coalescence in the case of English, the "roar" of
"uproar" alone being defunct ...

Thanks again.

Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 20 04:39:36 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:39:36 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.19 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.19.JUL.2004.213936.0700.>

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S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From: Hugo Zweep <hugo.zweep at valuersillawarra.com.au>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.19 (03) [E]

Silly me. I have been looking at this "kip kap keugel" thinking on how
familiar the rhythm of the verses seemed. Not being religious, the St
Maarten bit didn't ring a bell either. Now the bell has rung and the penny
has dropped.

When I was young, in Winschoten, Groningen (the Oldambt area and therefore
close to the German border) during the 1940s, a group of us would go out at
one night during November. We'd have candle lighted lanterns. Paper ones
that folded like a concertina so that you could tend to the candle. Then we
would sing "Kip Kap Kogel ..." after we knocked on a door or rung the bell
and someone opened up.

We'd always be given something. I only remember sweets but there could have
been other things. We would also sing a thank you and then go on our way to
the next house. When we'd have had enough we usually divided the spoils
amongst a group of from 5 to 10 children. I still can't see paper lanterns
without having nostalgic and quite specific memories.

Look up www.sillius.nl/groningana/sintmaarten.html We sang some of those
rhymes especially the second one and I have some recollection of the second
one to be sung if we were refused.

Geuko Zweep

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 20 05:23:15 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 22:23:15 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.19 (07) [A/E/German]
Message-ID: <MON.19.JUL.2004.222315.0700.>

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From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.19 (05) [E]

This from http://www.etymonline.com/

rare (adj.2) - "undercooked," 1655, variant of M.E. rere, from O.E. hrer
"lightly cooked," probably related to hreran "to stir, move." Originally
of eggs, not recorded in reference to meat until 1784, and according to
O.E.D., in this sense "formerly often regarded as an Americanism,
although it was current in many English dialects ...."

uproar - 1526, used as a loan-translation of Ger. Aufruhr or Du. oproer
in Ger. and Du. Bibles (cf. Acts xxi:38), "outbreak of disorder, revolt,
commotion," from Ger. auf "up" + ruhr "a stirring, motion." Meaning
"noisy shouting" is first recorded 1544, probably by mistaken
association with roar. First record of uproarious is from 1819.

David Barrow

-------------

From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.19 (05) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Thanks, Patrick or Cynthia (whichever of you sent this).
>
> > This seems semantically and phonetically to be a pretty good match to G.
> ruehren.
>
> Indeed!  Note also German _Aufruhr_, Dutch and Afrikaans _oproer_ and
> Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _uprour_ (<Uprohr>) ~ _oprour_ (<Oprohr>)
> 'uproar', 'revolt', 'rebellion'.  So it's a "stirring up."
>
> We might be dealing with coalescence in the case of English, the "roar" of
> "uproar" alone being defunct ...

What about the English verb "rear", meaning to raise or lift up (to rear
children, to rear one's head) or, intransitively, to rise on the hind legs
or to tower? The Amer. Heritage Dict. (2nd College ed.) traces it to OE
"roeran", and it definitely carries the idea of motion.

About "orc", I wouldn't say that the "Lord of the Rings" and "Shrek" movies
revived the word. Not only is it used in Tolkien's novel, which has long
been popular and widely read, but orcs appear in the extremely popular
fantasy role-playing genre of games (such as Dungeons & Dragons, which
appeared in the mid-1970s and drew largely from Tolkien at first) and
collectible card games (such as Magic: The Gathering, which came out in the
early 1990s).  I'd say large numbers of Americans under the age of about 45
are quite familiar with the word, even if they don't know where it comes
from.

----------

From: HALLS Haeng-Cho <zzhhalls at student.uq.edu.au>
Subject:

the Sanskrit actually reads as rayita

----------

From: John Baskind <jbaskind at mac.com>
Subject: Etymology

Nuwe Vriende:

Ek is die nuwe lid vanaf Washington, US. Ek het grootgeword in the
Noord-Transvaalse bosveld, in 'n klein dorpie meet een klein drie-kamer
plaasskooltjie. My Afrikaans is dus effens "boers", maar só praat ek,
en 'n liewe, lekker ryk taal is dit  vir my ook.

Mark het gesê, ten opsigte van "orc":

> Well, in Afrikaans schoolboy slang, to call someone an 'urk' - [@rk]
> is to
> denounce him as a graceless monstrosity. I have never found that word
> in a
> dictionary, but my mother a & grandmother knew it, though they denied
> ever
> using it! So use goes back to before 'The Hobbit' & 'The Lord of the
> Rings'.
>
> That is not the only insinuation of S. African 'schoolboy language'
> into
> Tolkien's books. Here is another, from the Hobbit, where Bilbo teases
> the
> spiders in Mirkwood to a frenzy by singing a song calling them
> 'attercop',
> Afrikaans 'etterkop' - (pus-head) . This word was identified to his
> correspondants by Tolkien as from Old English 'Aetercop' - (poison
> head);
> suitable for an adder or a spider, [sny]

See this, found at: http://www.tolkiensociety.org/tolkien/biography.html

"...John Ronald ("Ronald" to family and early friends) was born in
Bloemfontein, S.A., on 3 January 1892. His memories of Africa were
slight but vivid, including a scary encounter with a large hairy
spider, and influenced his later writing to some extent; slight,
because on 15 February 1896 his father died, and he, his mother and his
younger brother Hilary returned to England - or more particularly, the
West Midlands."

Daar staan Mark se etterkop, vris en sterk.  Mar ek moet sê dat,
kontekstuëel  gesproke, dit vir my onredelik is dat 'n vier-jarige
knapie van 'n koloniale Engelse familie "etterkop" kon geleer het.
Sulke "rooinekke" sou nooit Afrikaans geleer het nie, veral in 1896
nie. Nederlands, miskien ja, óf in die Vrystaat óf die Transvaal, waar
Nederlands die amptelike taal was.

Nooit "urk" gehoor vanuit enige Afrikaans-sprekende mond, maar dit was
beslis  in my (Engels-sprekende) höerskool gesê. "Baskind, you bloody
urk, you!" byvoorbeeld.

I've also heard (and used) the expression in London (England), which
was for me, like many SA exiles, a second home during the bad old days.
Roughly, as my friends and I used the expression, it carried the
meaning  of  blunderer or maker of stupid mistakes.

John

John Baskind

mailto:jbaskind at mac.com
360.675.3483
604.488.1020

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Etymology

Beste Roger,

> Hello Luc,
>
> You wrote "the initial _n_ can result from the final n of the
> article preceding it". You seem to assume that Dutch words
> 'nurk, nurks', East Brabant 'nörk' "grumbler, grumpy and
> unfriendly person" were derived from the adjective 'ork',
> Kiliaan 'orck' next to 'norck', Middle Dutch 'norke'
> "surly, grumpy". This view is not supported by Franck/Van
> Wijk's Etymologisch Woordenboek, which states "Kil. norck
> enz. is bezwaarlijk een jongere, naast Kil. orck, als znw.
> Nog zuidndl. dial. [..], opgekomen vorm."
> To me it is unclear which form was original and which secondary.

Indeed, it wasn't obvious for Franck/Van Wijk which form was original, "ork"
or "nork" (that was 92 years ago by the way). Unfortunately, nor is there
any consensus today, as Prof. dr. A. A. Weijnen writes in his "Etymologisch
Dialectwoordenboek" (1994):

hork: "Waarschijnlijk < *hornik ~ mnl. hornete (~ hornet (E)) 'naam van
verschillende insecten' (usually a "horzel" (D)) and so on...

...again another explanation...which basically means that he too doesn't
seem to believe in what Franck/Van Wijk were not sure about either.
Personally I think that both theories are a little far-fetched. Let me try
to explain.

Semantically speaking, the words starting with _n_ describe more of a
grumbling person (somebody who is "stuur" (B)...also called a "drömmer" here
btw) and are indeed cognate with German "nörgeln" ("to grump" (E)); whereas
an "örk" is definitely evil, and has an utterly cruel, sadistic nature.
Please read the following definitions, from Lexer and Grimm respectively:

orke swm. böser dämon, teufel. so sagt manger, er hab den orken und elben
gesechen VINTL. 7686. aus lat. orcus, it. orco, fz. ogre waldgeist. vgl.
MYTH. 291. 454. SCHM. Fr. 1,142. SCHÖPF 482. ROCHHOLZ naturmythen 96 anm.

ORKE,ORK,ORG, m. gespenstisches wesen, böser dämon, spukmännchen, teufel,
it. l'orco (von lat. Orcus, als gottheit gedacht, s. norke und oger sp. 899.
1198), cimbr. orko SCHM. 151b, bair. tirol. orke, org, deminutiv örkel
SCHM.2 1, 142. SCHÖPF 482. ZINGERLE sagen 63. s. MANNHARDT baumkultus 73.
110. 333:

so sagt auch maniger ze teute,
er hab den orken und elben gesehen.
         VINTLER 7802.

This fits nicely the meaning of "ör(re)k" in my version of Brabantish, be it
for a human being. Surely the two nouns may have influenced each other at
some point in time. Especially in those places, where also the verb "hörken"
(~ "hearken" (E), "horchen" (G)) was in use (like in Eastern North Brabant),
metanalysis may have urged speakers even more to reinterpret "den ork" as
"de(n) nork" (due to so called "fear of homonyms"). I know metanalysis can
work both ways (either adding or deleting _n_), but to my knowledge I know
of no example in my dialect where _n_ is deleted. I'm not stating that such
words do not exist, but there is a very strong tendency of adding  _n_,
e.g.:

"ast" > "nast" ("oast" (E))
"heef" > "nèèf" ("sourdough" (E))
"oord" > "nood" ("farthing"(E))
"oncle" (F) > "noenkel" ("uncle" (E))
"echel" > "nechel" ("leech"(E))
"azen" > "nèèzn" ("to bait" (E))...

Yet, with "ör(re)k", it's not done. We will say for example "Ör(re)k mürre
d� � vöö zaën, vöö aa vraa zoe af te sl� � ge".

Moreover, Kiliaan referred "norck" to "orck" (not the other way round) in
his Etymologicum Teutonicae linguae sive Dictionarium Teutonico - Latinum
(16th century), and also listed "orckachtigh" but not "norckachtigh". In
short, I don't think that "ork" has been derived from "nork" or vice versa,
but rather that they originally were (completely) different words.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Welcome to the List and to its "vocal" chapter, Haeng-Cho and John!  It's
great to have you here.

I wrote:

> Indo-Aryan words such as Sanskrit रायित _rāyati_ '(he/she/it) barks'.

Haeng-Cho:

> the Sanskrit actually reads as rayita

Hmmm ...  It clearly reads _rāyati_ here (r(a)-ā-ya-t(a)i).  (The -i
half-graph is written *before* the consonant it follows, while the long -i
half-graph is written behind.)  Maybe there's an encoding problem at your
end.  Nice to know, though, that there's someone else interested in this
fascinating language.

Liewe John,

> My Afrikaans is dus effens "boers", maar só praat ek,
> en 'n liewe, lekker ryk taal is dit  vir my ook.

Op Lowlands-L kan jy "praat" sonder bang te wees en sonder verskoning te
vra.  Alle Laaglandse taalsorte is by ons welkom en op prys gestel.

Luc regarding initial _n-_ added as a remnant of an infinitive article
(_een_, _eyn_, _'n_, etc.):

> "ast" > "nast" ("oast" (E))
> "heef" > "nèèf" ("sourdough" (E))
> "oord" > "nood" ("farthing"(E))
> "oncle" (F) > "noenkel" ("uncle" (E))
> "echel" > "nechel" ("leech"(E))
> "azen" > "nèèzn" ("to bait" (E))...

In North Saxon dialects of Lowlands Saxon (Low German) we have _naars_
(<Naars>, <Noors>, <Nors> etc.) and _maars_ (<Maars>, <Moors>, <Mors> etc.)
'arse' (American 'ass', as in 'backside'), based on _aars_, which is hardly
ever used now.  Perhaps the _maars_ variant comes from _an dem aars_ > _an
'em aars_ > _am aars_ 'on the ...', perhaps from the "colorful" invitation
_Lek/Lik my am aars!_ (<Leck/Lick mi am Aars!>, nowadays _... an'n ..._,
dative forms having disappeared).  It's an invitation in reverse, so to
speak.  I guess I can spare you the translation.

How's this for "boers," John?

Groete,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 20 14:38:43 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 07:38:43 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.20 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUL.2004.073843.0700.>

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From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.19 (07) [A/E/German]

>From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.19 (05) [E]
>
>This from http://www.etymonline.com/
>
>rare (adj.2) - "undercooked," 1655, variant of M.E. rere, from O.E. hrer
>"lightly cooked," probably related to hreran "to stir, move." Originally
>of eggs, not recorded in reference to meat until 1784, and according to
>O.E.D., in this sense "formerly often regarded as an Americanism,
>although it was current in many English dialects ...."
>
>uproar - 1526, used as a loan-translation of Ger. Aufruhr or Du. oproer
>in Ger. and Du. Bibles (cf. Acts xxi:38), "outbreak of disorder, revolt,
>commotion," from Ger. auf "up" + ruhr "a stirring, motion." Meaning
>"noisy shouting" is first recorded 1544, probably by mistaken
>association with roar. First record of uproarious is from 1819.
>
>David Barrow
>
>-------------
>
>From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.19 (05) [E]
>
>>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>>Subject: Etymology
>>
>>Thanks, Patrick or Cynthia (whichever of you sent this).
>>
>>>This seems semantically and phonetically to be a pretty good match to G.
>>>
>>ruehren.
>>
>>Indeed!  Note also German _Aufruhr_, Dutch and Afrikaans _oproer_ and
>>Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _uprour_ (<Uprohr>) ~ _oprour_ (<Oprohr>)
>>'uproar', 'revolt', 'rebellion'.  So it's a "stirring up."
>>
>>We might be dealing with coalescence in the case of English, the "roar" of
>>"uproar" alone being defunct ...
>
>What about the English verb "rear", meaning to raise or lift up (to rear
>children, to rear one's head) or, intransitively, to rise on the hind legs
>or to tower? The Amer. Heritage Dict. (2nd College ed.) traces it to OE
>"roeran", and it definitely carries the idea of motion.
>
rǽran  not roeran the ae ligature might look a bit like an oe ligature
as it does below when in italics

rear (v.) - O.E. rǽran"to raise, build up, set on end," from P.Gmc.
*raizijanau "to raise," causative of *risanan "to rise" (see raise).
Meaning "bring into being, bring up" (as a child) is recorded from
c.1420; that of "raise up on the hind legs" is first recorded 1375.

it is cognate with:

raise (v.) - c.1200, from O.N. reisa "to raise," from P.Gmc. *raizjan
(cf. Goth. ur-raisjan, O.E. rǽran "to rear," see rear (v.)), causative
of base *ris- "to rise" (see rise). At first sharing many senses with
native rear (v.). Used in most of the varied modern senses since M.E.;
some later evolutions include "to bring up" (a child), 1744; "to
elevate" (the consciousness), 1970. The noun is first recorded 1500 in
sense of "a levy;" meaning "increase in amount or value" is from 1728,
specific sense in poker is from 1821. Meaning "increase in salary or
wages" is from 1898, chiefly Amer.Eng. (British preferring rise).

the s (/z/) of rise/raise v the second 'r' of rear is due to rhotacism.
The same thing happened with 'was' and 'were'

There was once 'rear' /rE:r/ as variant spelling of rare above but not
to be confused with rear /rI:r/ just above.

David Barrow

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Etymology

Traces of this /r/~/z/ alternation can be found in the Low German group as
well; e.g., Lowlands Saxon _verleyren_ ~ _verleysen_ ~ _verlysen_
(<verleren> ~ <verlieren> ~ <verlesen> ~ <verliesen>) and Dutch _verliezen_
'to lose', and Lowlands Saxon _köyren_ (<kören> ~ <köörn> ~ <küren> ~
<küürn>) vs Dutch _kiezen_ 'to choose', LS _köyr_ (<köör> ~ <küür>) vs Dutch
_keuze_ 'choice' but _voorkeur_ 'preference' ("fore-choice").

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 20 16:13:33 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 09:13:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Oral tradition" 2004.07.20 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUL.2004.091333.0700.>

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From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Oral Tradition


It seems that the earliest known reference to 'Arthur's Peak' only dates
back to the 15th century. There are ,however, the remains of an ancient
hillfort on the slopes of Arthur's Peak (as there are also underneath
Edinburgh Castle) and these forts were most probably built by the Brythonic
tribe known to the Romans as the Votadini. The word Votadini is a Latinized
form of the word Goutodin or later Gododdin, the name of the people and
kingdom that extended from Stirling to the River Tyne.Their first capital
was at Taprain Law in East Lothian and was then transferred to Edinburgh.
Their exploits are recorded in the Old Welsh epic poem Y Gododdin by
Aneirin. In this poem, which may well have been written in Edinburgh, the
city is referred to as Eidin, the forerunner of the Gaelic Dun Eideann,
which the English later Saxonized to Edin-burgh 'the Burgh (fort) of Edin'.

Edinburgh is mentioned a number of times in the Gododdin, as in stanza
60:(Joseph Clancy's translation)

'Thus had the Gododdin wine and mead in Eidin, ruthless in strife, firm
ranks.'

The poem also contains perhaps the earliest reference to Arthur, and proves
that the people of Gododdin must have known of him: (stanza 98):

'He brought black crows to a fort's wall, though he was not Arthur.'
((Describing the exploits of a warrior).

 John Duckworth
Preston, UK

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 20 16:16:19 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 09:16:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.20 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUL.2004.091619.0700.>

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From: Lone Olesen <istranza at yahoo.dk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Hello all,

Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net> wrote:

> That is not the only insinuation of S. African
> 'schoolboy language' into
> Tolkien's books. Here is another, from the Hobbit,
> where Bilbo teases the
> spiders in Mirkwood to a frenzy by singing a song
> calling them 'attercop',
> Afrikaans 'etterkop' - (pus-head) . This word was
> identified to his
> correspondants by Tolkien as from Old English
> 'Aetercop' - (poison head);
> suitable for an adder or a spider, but sure'nuff in
> his childhood in
> Bloemfontein, the use of that word would have
> reduced the entire school
> playground to a shocked & echoing silence.

Incidentally, the Danish word for "spider" is
"edderkop", with no name-calling intended. The first
syllable "edder" also means poison and can be used for
swearing or for reinforcing a statement.
Unfortunately, I don't have my ethymological
dictionary at the moment, and looking it up on the web
I only got the children's song "itsy bitsy spider"
(Lille Peter Edderkop).
Rgds, Lone Olesen

----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.19 (02) [E]

Beste Ron,

Subject: Etymology

> I take "to roar" to belong to a different group of apparently
> onomatopoetically derived cognates: Old English _rārian_, Middle Saxon
> _rāren_ ~ _rēren_ > Modern Saxon _raren_ ~ _reren_ (<rahren> ~ <rohren> ~
> <rehren>), Middle Dutch _reeren_, Old German _rērēn_ > Middle German
_rēren_
> > Modern German _röhren_ (of male deer during the rut), apparently related
> to Slavic words like Russian раять _rajat'_ 'to sound (loudly)' and
> Indo-Aryan words such as Sanskrit रायित _rāyati_ '(he/she/it) barks'.

You've got me there! This is what Chambers's Etymological Dictionary says;
"--- to cry as a beast --- [Anglo-Saxon 'rárian', Old German 'reran', --- to
cry as a stag, to bellow; ---]." Here comes my face-saver, "[--- influenced
also by an old verb 'hroren', the German rühren, to move ---."

Groete,
Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 20 16:41:54 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 09:41:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.20 (04) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUL.2004.094154.0700.>

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From: rick denkers <d.denkers at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.19 (06) [E]

Moye Hugo,

> When I was young, in Winschoten, Groningen (the Oldambt area and therefore
> close to the German border) during the 1940s, a group of us would go out
at
> one night during November. We'd have candle lighted lanterns. Paper ones
> that folded like a concertina so that you could tend to the candle. Then
we
> would sing "Kip Kap Kogel ..." after we knocked on a door or rung the bell
> and someone opened up.
>
> We'd always be given something. I only remember sweets but there could
have
> been other things. We would also sing a thank you and then go on our way
to
> the next house. When we'd have had enough we usually divided the spoils
> amongst a group of from 5 to 10 children. I still can't see paper lanterns
> without having nostalgic and quite specific memories.
>
T zal du nijt verbaozn dat die St maarten nog zeer wiet gefiert wurt int
Grun' en dreentse land !
Mien kinder goan ieder jaor nog langs de deurre om Sint Martinus te fiern .
Grout'n
Rick
_________________________
Denn die einen sind im Dunkeln
Und die andern sind im Licht.
Und man siehet die im Lichte
Die im Dunkeln sieht man nicht.

"Dreigroschenoper., B. Brecht
--------------------------------------

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Literature

Folks,

I am interested in code switching in verse, and I wonder if you can think of
such instances involving Lowlands language varieties.

As far as I can tell, this phenomenon ranges between the following two
types:

(1) Macaronic devices (in which language switches occur seemingly randomly)
(2) Devices highlighting social or ethnic differences

Are there any other types?

Below I will provide one example for each of the above-mentioned types: a
Welsh song that switches between English and Welsh in a macaronic fashion,
and a Lowlands Saxon (Low German) song that uses genteel 19th-century German
to highlight a person's perceptively higher social standing or ambitions, or
rather his social airs, thus contrasting two milieus and showing off a son's
alienation from his roots.

I do not know who the authors are.

Regards and thanks.

Reinhard/Ron

***

   CÂN MERTHYR
   [Song of Merthyr, Wales]

   Ye lads all thro' the country,
   Gwrandewch ar hyn o stori! [1]
   You better go dros ben y graig, [2]
   Than go with gwraig i'r gwely. [3]

   My wife did send me waerad [4]
   Down to the river Deifad:
   I told her I wouldn't go—
   She knock me with the lletwad. [5]

   My wife did send me i weithio [6]
   Without a bit of bacco; [7]
   She got plenty in the house—
   Ni chawn i ounce ohono. [8]

   My wife did go to dinner,
   Cig moch a phalfais wether; [9]
   She eat the cig, [10] give me the cawl— [11]
   A dyna'i chi ddiawl o bardner. [12]

   O! O! O!


Welsh items:
   [1] Listen to this story!
   [2] over the top of the cliff
   [3] the wife to bed
   [4] away
   [5] soup ladle
   [6] to work
   [7] tobacco
   [8] I wasn't allowed an ounce of it.
   [9] bacon and shoulder of lamb
   [10] meat
   [11] soup, broth
   [12] Now there's a devil of a partner.

***


   DEI GROFFSMIDT
   (Mecklenburg)

   Ein Groffsmidt set in goder Rauh
   un smöök sien Piep Toback dortau.

   »Wat kloppt denn dor an miene Dör,
   as wenn 't dei Dübel sülben weer?

   All wedder 'n Breif von dei Hallsche Post,
   dei mi so manchen Daler kost't.

   Wat schrifft denn dor mien leiwe Fritz,
   dei up dei hohge Schaul rümflitzt?«

   »Du sast mal fix nah Halle kamen,
   dien Sœhn will sick dat Läben nahmen!«

   Un as dei Oll nah Halle kem,
   donn drünk hei ierst 'n groten Kœm.

   »Wo wahnt denn hier mien leiwe Fritz,
   dei up dei hohge Schaul rümflitzt?«

   »Dien Sœhn, dei wahnt in'n 'Gollen Stiern',
   hei hett dei lütten Dierns so giern.«

      »Guten Tag, guten Tag, mein Herr Papa!
      Wie geht 's zu Haus der Frau Mama?
      Wie geht es meinem Schwesterlein?
      Wie mag 's mit meinem Wechsel sein?«

   »Von dissen Wessel holl dat Muul,
   süss slah ick di dat Ledder vull!«

      »Was hab ich Euch zu Leid getan?
      So fährt man keinen Burschen an!
      Den ganzen Tag hab ich studiert
      und abends auch noch kommersiert!«

   »Dat Rümpossieren, dat süsst man laten,
   süsst leiwer up den Amboß slahn.«

      »Viel eher, daß ich Grobschmied werd,
      werd ich Soldate hoch zu Pferd.
      Und gebt Ihr mir nicht gleich das Geld,
      so seht Ihr Euren Sohn als Held.«

   »För dit Mal sall 't vergäben sien,
   du Hawerlump, du Rœbenswien.

   Gott segne deine Studia,
   ut di ward nicks, hallelujah!«

===
My transliteration:

   DEY GROVSMID
   (Mecklenburg)

   Eyn grovsmid seet in goder rou
   un smöyk syn pyp tobak daar tou.

   »Wat klopt den daar an myne döör,
   as wen 't dey düyvel sülven weer?

   Al wedder 'n breyv von dey Hallsche Post,
   dey my so manchen daler kostt.

   Wat schrivt den daar myn leyve Fritz,
   dey up dey hoge schoul rüm-vlitst?«

   »Du sast maal viks na Halle kamen.
   Dyn söön wil sik dat leven namen!«

   Un as dey old' na Halle keem,
   don drünk hey eyrst 'n groten kööm.

   »Waar waant den hyr myn leyve Fritz,
   dey up dey hoge schoul rüm-vlitst?«

   »Dyn söön, dey waant in d'n 'Golden Steyrn'.
   Hey het dey lütten deyrns so geyrn.«

      »Guten Tag, guten Tag, mein Herr Papa!
      Wie geht's zu Haus der Frau Mama?
      Wie geht es meinem Schwesterlein?
      Wie mag's mit meinem Wechsel sein?«

   »Von dissen wessel hold dat muul,
   süs sla ick dy dat ledder vul!«

      »Was hab ich Euch zu Leid getan?
      So fährt man keinen Burschen an!
      Den ganzen Tag hab ich studiert
      und abends auch noch kommersiert!«

   »Dat rüm-posseyren, dat süst man laten,
   süst leyver up d'n amboss slaan.«

      »Viel eher, daß ich Grobschmied werd,
      werd ich Soldate hoch zu Pferd.
      Und gebt Ihr mir nicht gleich das Geld,
      so seht Ihr Euren Sohn als Held.«

   »Vör dit maal sal 't vergeven syn,
   du haver-lump, du röven-swyn.

   Gott segne deine Studia!
   Uut dy wardt niks. Hallelujah!«

===
My translation ([LS] = Lowlands Saxon, [G] = German):

   THE BLACKSMITH
   (Mecklenburg)

   [LS] A blacksmith sat in peace and quiet
   And smoked a pipe of tobacco.

   "Who's that knocking on the door
   As if it were the devil himself?"

   Again a letter by mail coach from Halle
   That costs me many a pretty dollar.

   What's he writing there, my dear son Fritz,
   Who's running around at the university up there?"

   "You'd better come to Halle, quick.
   Your son's about to commit suicide!"

   And when the old man got to Halle
   He first had a large stiff drink

   "Where around here does he stay, my Fritz,
   Who's running around at the university up here?"

   "Your son's staying at the Golden Star.
   He's pretty darn fond of the girls, I'd say."

      [G] "Good day, good day, sir, dear Papa!
      How is Madam Mama faring back home?
      How might my dearest sister be?
      How might things stand �  propos my bill?"

   [LS] "You'd better not mention a bill of exchange,
   Or else I'll give you a good hiding!"

      [G] "What have I done to you, good sir?
      Is this a way to talk to a lad?
      I have been studying all day,
      Was sociable at night as well."

   [LS] "You'd better be done with your courting, I say,
   Had better be making that anvil sing."

      [G] "Much rather than becoming a blacksmith, sir,
      I'd become a soldier high on a horse.
      And if you don't give me my money right now
      You'll see your son end up as a hero."

   [LS] "Now, now! You'll be forgiven this once,
   You rascal, you ... you scalawag!

   [G] May God bless all your _studia_,
   [LS] You good-for-naught! Hallelujah!"

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 20 17:57:16 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:57:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Oral tradition" 2004.07.20 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUL.2004.105716.0700.>

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Oral tradition" 2004.07.19 (04) [E]

Dear Sandy Fleming

Subject: "In the media"

> I'm not really up to date on the theories of Arthur, but I've often
wondered
> why  Arthurs Seat (a large promontory of volcanic rock within the city of
> Edinburgh) is so called.

> Also, why is there such a strong tradition of Merlin in Berwickshire in
the
> Scottish Borders? They have "Merlin's Cave", for example, and a local
> tradition that particularly associates Merlin with the river Tweed.

> And why do archeologists still keep digging in Wales for evidence of
Arthur
> when they never manage to find anything? The idea that Avalon or Camelot
was
> at Glastonbury in Somerset is an obvious linguistic gaffe - Arthur was
said
> to have built a city of glass, but the "glas" in Glastonbury refers to the
> woad that used to be grown there (cf Welsh "glas" - "blue/grey/green").

> I was wondering if perhaps, like the works of other Welsh poets, stories
of
> Arthur were taken to Wales by refugees from the Lothians when the
Brythonic
> kingdom there fell to the Northumbrians? Does the name "Arthurs Seat" go
> back a long way?

I'm with you there. The late Prof. Abercrombie of St Andrews told me that
the 'Inglis' speaking parts of Scotland were once Welsh-speaking, & the
language receded to English less by conquest (of course there was a complete
turnover in aristocracy, as in the Norman conquest of England) than by
cultural drift (which continues to this day). Since it wasn't by invasion or
population displacement, the Brythonic names & tales stayed with the
locations identified in the 'Folk Record'.
But he said that the Arthurian Tradition was entrenched in all Brythonic
communities before Anglo-Saxon hegemony, which accounts for the breadth &
consistency of the tradition among groups so thoroughly isolated, in the
Lothians, Whales, Cornwall & Devon, & (a special case - they were once
Island British) Brittany.
The Arthurian Tradition was once very strong, embracing the whole Island. I
wonder what he did to get Gildas so cut up that he cut him out of British
History?
The writings of Geraldus Cambriensis makes it plain that it was not so
'dark' in the 'Dark Ages' of your Island. Records of the time were made at
the time, & kept, & they survive. But there is a real & measurable gap in
British history covering exactly the Arthurian period, & the manifest
disparity between the rich folk record & the bare scholastic record shows it
was deliberate, on the part of the official record keepers. I hope those
clerics are proud of what they did!

I reckon archaeological research of the Arthurian period should cover the
whole Island, & auger in on folk traditions, not the 'historical record'
(which is "cooked"). Before the balkanisation of Britain under the Angles,
Saxons (my ears prick up here!) & Jutes (or were they Geats?) the Island had
a unitary Roman administration, infrastructure, military, road system & even
national consciousness (which is remembered in the Lay of Mancsen Wledig).
To my mind, the Count of Britain may well have held court in Glastonbury &
sat on Arthur's Seat. If Harold of England could fight battles at Stamford
bridge & at Sandlac in such a short space of time just think what a few
cavalry brigades could do along Roman roads!

Yrs sincerely,
Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 20 17:58:45 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:58:45 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.20 (06) [A/E]
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUL.2004.105845.0700.>

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.19 (07) [A/E/German]

Dear Reinhard & John,

Of course the LARP fraternity post-dated, by just a bit, the explosion of
popularity of Tolkien in the USA.
Those who played D&D, & designed that & similar games, knew the books well,
& found in them ready inspiration for their own inventions, not to mention
rich ores for their delving! Tolkien is recorded having said, "These young
people are involved in my tales in a way that I am not!"

> About "orc",

> I'd say large numbers of Americans under the age of about 45 are quite
familiar with the word, even if they
> don't know where it comes from.

John; geluk en aangename kennis!

> Mark het gesê, ten opsigte van "orc":

> > Well, in Afrikaans schoolboy slang, to call someone an 'urk' - [@rk] is
to
> > denounce him as a graceless monstrosity.

> > Bilbo teases the spiders in Mirkwood to a frenzy by singing a song
calling them
> > 'attercop', Afrikaans 'etterkop' - (pus-head).

> Daar staan Mark se etterkop, vris en sterk.  Mar ek moet sê dat,
kontekstuëel  gesproke, dit vir my onredelik > is dat 'n vier-jarige knapie
van 'n koloniale Engelse familie "etterkop" kon geleer het. Sulke
"rooinekke" sou  > nooit Afrikaans geleer het nie, veral in 1896 nie.
Nederlands, miskien ja, óf in die Vrystaat óf die Transvaal,  > waar
Nederlands die amptelike taal was.

Ek stem nie saam nie. Ek onthou hoe ek op daardie ouderdom deur die
volwassenes uitgelag is oor vuil taal wat ek van 'n ietwat ouer maatjie
geleer, en in hulle geselskap gebruik het (die gelag het harder getug as
enige streepsuiker, ek sê jou!).
Nog wat: Anthony Trollope, die roman skrywer (Barsetshire Chronicles), het
Suider Afrika deur getoer, net 'n bietjie voor daai tyd, en daaroor boek
geskryf. Onder andere het hy Bloemfontein in die Vrystaat besoek, en daar,
soos ons lees het die bittere gees wat in die Transvaal reeds ontstaan nog
nie ontwyk nie. Boer en Brit het mooi oor die weg gekom, beide sosiaal en
professioneel.
Die hart van die huishoud in die jare is die kombuis gewees, veral vir die
kinders, tussen die bediendes, en in daardie jare is Afrikaans maar 'n
kombuis-taal, nê? Hollands, in teendeel, veral in 'n Engelssprekende gesin,
sou net nie voorgekom het nie. Ja, selfs in Afrikaner geledere is dit net in
skool, en dit net in klas, geleer.
Om 'n voorbeeld van die blootstelling wat 'n Engelssprekende kind van
daardie jare aan Afrikaans geniet het, lees maar gerus 'The Diary of Iris
Vaughan' - al te prettig!
Skryf maar nog, John!

Die Uwe,
Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 20 18:09:11 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:09:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.20 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUL.2004.110911.0700.>

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=======================================================================

From: Szelog, Mike <Mike.Szelog at citizensbank.com>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.20 (04) [E/LS]

Hello all,

I've also heard a version of Dei Groffsmidt, can't recall who sung it, but
it's also about Fritz and his extracurricular activities at university.

In the version I've heard, it's Kiel (Dat is een Brief van de Kieler Post,
dey twee un twinning Penning kost, etc. - sorry for the spelling,I'm going
by memory).

But he at first addresses his father in very High German, and then at the
end is begging his father to let him stay at the university, but in perfect
Lowlands rather than formal High German!

The only other example I can think of is also a Welsh folk song, but only
parts of it switch languages. The verses are sung in Welsh, but the
chorus/refrain goes:

"Happy are we now all my boys, happy are we now all;
Gobeithio gawn ni etto gordd yng nglwad yn Cymru'n oll" (I think something
like, "here's hoping we'll all meet in old Wales")

Again, sorry for the Welsh spelling; I'm going by memory!

Only other ones I've heard are Romany, but because I'm not all that familiar
with the languages used (Romany and Hungarian), I'm not entirely sure there
were two languages used in the same songs.

Mike S
Manchester, NH - USA

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Literature

Thanks, Mike.

I think you are talking about the Holstein dialect version Hannes Wader
performs.  In it the son adds that two friends of his had quarreled and made
him the referee for their fight (assumedly one of those old-fashioned
university student duels).  I have a feeling that this is a later,
"jazzed-up" version, but I may be wrong there.  I will try to find the words
of that version.

Thanks again!

Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 20 23:06:13 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:06:13 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.20 (08) [E]
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From: Szelog, Mike <Mike.Szelog at citizensbank.com>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.20 (07) [E]

Hello all,

Ron Wrote:

"I think you are talking about the Holstein dialect version Hannes Wader
performs."

I think that's it!! I "had" both the tape and words to the song, but
unfortunately now have no idea where they are! The name sounds very
familiar, and after seeing the other versions you posted, I believe it is
indeed a "jazzed up" version of a popular folk tune. On the tape, I believe
it's him with a guitar on this song, but on others there are fiddle ,
harmonica, spoons and auto-harp. With some of the tunes and the instruments
used, along with the style of playing, you can see where some of American
"Country & Western" got its roots!

Mike S.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 20 23:20:48 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:20:48 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Oral tradition" 2004.07.20 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUL.2004.162048.0700.>

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From: Andrys Onsman <Andrys.Onsman at CeLTS.monash.edu.au>
Subject: LL-L "Oral tradition" 2004.07.19 (04) [E]

From: Andrys Onsman
Subject: Oral Tradition
To: Sandy et al

>And why do archeologists still keep digging in Wales for evidence of Arthur
>when they never manage to find anything?
>
I'm not sure that such is the case. In /The Keys to Avalon: the true
location of Arthur’s Kingdom revealed /(Blake, S & Lloyd, S;
Shaftesbury: Element, 2000) the thesis that the stories of Arthur and
Camelot are localised in northern Wales is posited. Although I wasn't
entirely convinced by their argument, and some of the detail became
somewhat trivial, it's an interesting theory, with numerous lowland
language area precedents. Well worth a read, if you're interested in
such things - but nowhere near as spectacular as the movie!

Guid will,
Andrys Onsman

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 21 20:03:25 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:03:25 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Oral tradition" 2004.07.21 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.130325.0700.>

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: "Oral tradition" [E]

> From: Andrys Onsman <Andrys.Onsman at CeLTS.monash.edu.au>
> Subject: LL-L "Oral tradition" 2004.07.19 (04) [E]
>
> From: Andrys Onsman
> Subject: Oral Tradition
> To: Sandy et al
>
> >And why do archeologists still keep digging in Wales for evidence of
Arthur
> >when they never manage to find anything?
> >
> I'm not sure that such is the case. In /The Keys to Avalon: the true
> location of Arthurs Kingdom revealed /(Blake, S & Lloyd, S;
> Shaftesbury: Element, 2000) the thesis that the stories of Arthur and
> Camelot are localised in northern Wales is posited. Although I wasn't
> entirely convinced by their argument, and some of the detail became
> somewhat trivial, it's an interesting theory, with numerous lowland
> language area precedents. Well worth a read, if you're interested in
> such things - but nowhere near as spectacular as the movie!

That sounds interesting, although I'm extremely sceptical about the value of
trying to reconstruct lost history without very solid evidence (as opposed
to, say, toponymic or etymological evidence).

Although aware of some of the pitfalls, I'm inclined to give more (though
not necessarily much) credence to oral tradition. An example of why is the
tradition of Old King Cole. While the Scottish oral tradition of King Cole
is quite strong  (as, for example, when Scottish poets refer to Scotland as
"Coila"), in England there is a Colchester so everybody believes he was
based there, without a shred of evidence. In fact Burns believes King Cole
to be associated with Kyle in Scotland, and refers to Kyle thusly (in "The
Two Dogs"):

'Twas in that place o' Scotland's Isle,
That bears the name o' auld King Coil,

You'll note that Burns Rhymes "Coil" with "Isle" just as in modern Scots
"voice", "boil", "choice" &c is pronounced "vyce", "byle", "chyce" &c. He
means "Kyle".

On the whole, though, I think this sort of thing - oral tradition - should
be taken much more seriously than simply matching "Cole" with "Colchester",
or "glass" with "Glastonbury". Yet there seem to be many books putting
forward theories that are based on little more than a few approximate
pattern matches.

Another pitfall with lost history is that the legends tend to build - people
spot connections that really don't exist, and like the canals of Mars an
Arthurian landscape is built right across the island. But just because
legends of Arthur are everywhere doesn't mean Arthur was everywhere. The
idea that the literature of Arthur moved from Ediinburgh to Wales at least
involves a route over which refugees are known to have taken other works of
Brythonic literature. This might spread "Arthurmania" over a wide area and
the connections would begin to be built. And of course the notoriously
self-publicising monks of Glastonbury Abbey made more of it than most!

The association of Camelot (though not Cole!) with Colchester is very
striking, though.

It's also true that the Welsh tended to write up stories from other areas as
if they had actually happened in Wales. For example, the traditional Welsh
story "The Drowning of the Bottom Hundred", tells how a series of sea-dykes
stretching along the west coast of Wales were left in such neglect that the
sea broke in and submerged the town of Aberdovy, so that sometimes the
famous "Bells of Aberdovy" can be heard ringing below the sea, obviously
couldn't have happened in Wales. In fact it relates actual incidents that
occurred on the Dutch coastline.

All this talk of Arthur still leaves me wondering why there's such a strong
tradition of Merlin in Berwickshire, though. It might be worth considering
how the other two wizards I mentioned - Michael Scot and John Napier - fared
in oral tradition. It might not actually cast light on Merlin, but could
give us an idea how large a pinch of salt we need with oral tradition.

John Napier (pronounced "Naper" /ne:p at r/ in Scots) owned Merchiston Castle
just outside Edinburgh. His household (you know, the servants and suchlike)
observed him day after day and night after night moving tablets with arcane
markings on them over a mysterious board, also covered in arcane markings.
He kept a black cockerel as a familiar, which everyone feared because
anything it saw, John Napier would also see. Criminals had been arrested and
found guilty simply because the master wizard had caught them red-handed via
the cockerel. Later in his life, wizards from the furthest reaches of the
island would visit Napier, not to work with him or learn from him, but just
for the honour of meeting him and paying reverence to him for his powerful
works.

Michael Scot was a wizard from the Scottish Border country, born aound 1180.
He was of fairy parentage and is mentioned in many supernatural tales, where
he duels with witches and even defeats the Pope. He and the Devil built
Watling Street in England in a single night, and it was he or one of his
familiars who split Eildon Law in three (Eildon Law is a dramatic
triple-peaked mountain near Melrose in the Scottish Borders). Like Merlin,
Michael Scot never died, his whereabouts are simply unknown.

John Napier is of course recent history. When a theft was committed in the
castle, he covered a black cockerel in soot and led the servants one at a
time into a dark room where the were instructed to stroke the cockerel,
which would cry out when touched by a thief. The thief was caught because he
hadn't dared touch it and his hands were still clean (this also happens in
an episode of M*A*S*H but Napier seems to have done it for real!). Napier
spent much of his time slidign counters over a board as he attempted to
devise effiecient methods of calculation. He eventually devised a system of
calculation by logarithms that was so successful it extended the working
life of astronomers ten or twentyfold and they would come up to Scotland
from Cambridge just to meet him and pay their respects.

Michael Scot studied in Paris and was tutor to Frederick II who later became
emperor.  Michael distinguished himself as an alchemist in Spain. On visits
to Spain he read many of the great Arabic works and a treatise on algebra is
credited to him. I suppose it's possible that the Scottish Lowlanders were
simply overawed by his learning and the strange sort of books he wrote and
read. Such wonders as Eildon Law and Watling Street (actually a Roman road)
were attributed to him, although the Roman name "Trimontanum" for the Eildon
area seems to give the game away to us moderns! I've read varying accounts
of his death - either he died in obscurity amongst the ordinary folk of the
Scottish Borders, or he met with some mischance on one of his trips to
Spain.

Even so, I think that with oral tradition there's usually a real person
behind it no matter how warped the truth becomes, and I think that oral
tradition might be a better guide to the location of an obscure historical
character, when you consider that oral tradition tends to stay put (unless
there's a mass migration) whereas once something's written down it might end
up anywhere. Oral tradition can be seriously warped, but perhaps it's sheer
incredibility makes it less misleading than the doctoring of written texts
with its synthetic credibility, or modern scholars on a treasure hunt for
similar names and suchlike.

Anyway, it all leads me to wonder if there really isn't something _behind_
the oral tradition of Merlin in Berwickshire. But perhaps we just sometimes
have to accept that lost history really is lost.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 21 20:51:44 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:51:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.21 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.135144.0700.>

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From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.20 (01) [E]

From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.19 (07) [A/E/German]

From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.19 (05) [E]

This from http://www.etymonline.com/

rare (adj.2) - "undercooked," 1655, variant of M.E. rere, from O.E. hrer
"lightly cooked," probably related to hreran "to stir, move." Originally
of eggs, not recorded in reference to meat until 1784, and according to
O.E.D., in this sense "formerly often regarded as an Americanism,
although it was current in many English dialects ...."

uproar - 1526, used as a loan-translation of Ger. Aufruhr or Du. oproer
in Ger. and Du. Bibles (cf. Acts xxi:38), "outbreak of disorder, revolt,
commotion," from Ger. auf "up" + ruhr "a stirring, motion." Meaning
"noisy shouting" is first recorded 1544, probably by mistaken
association with roar. First record of uproarious is from 1819.

David Barrow

-------------

From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.19 (05) [E]

    From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, Patrick or Cynthia (whichever of you sent this).

      This seems semantically and phonetically to be a pretty good match to
G.

        ruehren.

Indeed!  Note also German _Aufruhr_, Dutch and Afrikaans _oproer_ and
Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _uprour_ (<Uprohr>) ~ _oprour_ (<Oprohr>)
'uproar', 'revolt', 'rebellion'.  So it's a "stirring up."

We might be dealing with coalescence in the case of English, the "roar" of
"uproar" alone being defunct ...
      What about the English verb "rear", meaning to raise or lift up (to
rear
children, to rear one's head) or, intransitively, to rise on the hind legs
or to tower? The Amer. Heritage Dict. (2nd College ed.) traces it to OE
"roeran", and it definitely carries the idea of motion.

    rǽran  not roeran the ae ligature might look a bit like an oe ligature
as it does below when in italics
  rǽran below was supposed to appear in italics like this rǽran. The
formatting was lost because my email was set to text only.

David Barrow

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Etymology

David, Lowlanders,

The list server processes in plain text mode only.  This means it strips
messages of all formatting, not only HTML formatting but also text style
fomatting (including colors).  This is why we use symbols instead, such as
_italics_ and *bold*.

Also, the server ignores most type of indent used to mark quotes text, which
is why we prefer other types of marking (as in Troy's posting below) and why
we indent text manually if indenting is important.

Regards,
Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
Founder & Administrator, Lowlands-L
lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
http://www.lowlands-l.net

----------

From: Troy Sagrillo <meshwesh at bigfoot.com>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.20 (03) [E]

Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net> wrote:

> That is not the only insinuation of S. African 'schoolboy language' into
> Tolkien's books. Here is another, from the Hobbit, where Bilbo teases the
> spiders in Mirkwood to a frenzy by singing a song calling them 'attercop',
> Afrikaans 'etterkop' - (pus-head) . This word was identified to his
> correspondants by Tolkien as from Old English 'Aetercop' - (poison head);
> suitable for an adder or a spider, but sure'nuff in his childhood in
> Bloemfontein, the use of that word would have reduced the entire school
> playground to a shocked & echoing silence.

That may be the case, but it does remain that "at(t)orcoppe" 'spider' does
occur in Old English. "at(t)or" = poison, venom" (realised as "adder", in
modern English); "coppe" = "head". I would tend to trust Tolkein on this
one.

Cheers,

Troy

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 21 21:20:06 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:20:06 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.21 (03) [A/E]
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.142006.0700.>

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From: John Baskind <jbaskind at mac.com>
Subject: Etymology

Beste, Ron en Mark:

Dankie virrie oophartige groete!

On Jul 19, 2004, at 10:23 PM, Lowlands-L wrote:

> In North Saxon dialects of Lowlands Saxon (Low German) we have _naars_
> (<Naars>, <Noors>, <Nors> etc.) and _maars_ (<Maars>, <Moors>, <Mors>
> etc.)
> 'arse' (American 'ass', as in 'backside'), based on _aars_, which is
> hardly
> ever used now.  Perhaps the _maars_ variant comes from _an dem aars_ >
> _an
> 'em aars_ > _am aars_ 'on the ...', perhaps from the "colorful"
> invitation
> _Lek/Lik my am aars!_ (<Leck/Lick mi am Aars!>, nowadays _... an'n
> ..._,
> dative forms having disappeared).  It's an invitation in reverse, so to
> speak.  I guess I can spare you the translation.
>
> How's this for "boers," John?
>
> Groete,
> Reinhard/Ron

Ja-nee!  Dis maar lekker boers!

(This is off-topic, being a semantic rather than an etymological query,
but I beg indulgence:)

I have chewed over this quintessentially Afrikaans expression (ja-nee)
for years, but have always been frustrated in my quest for information
on it's origins. I hope that someone here might be able to shed some
light.

Ja-nee is difficult to translate accurately, as it carries a wide range
of meaning, depending on the inflection and which of the two words is
emphasized. In the case above it provides  delighted
acceptance/agreement with a salient point; but it can also carry the
meaning of a considered acceptance of present realities, as in the case
below,  a wonderful series of advertisements from South Africa's
erstwhile governing Party which appeared in the Afrikaans Press during
the run-up to the epochal 1994 elections:

Ad 1, Full Page:

Ja

Ad 2, Full Page:

Nee

Ad 3, full page

Ja-Nee

Ad 4, full page

Ag, Ja.

Which begs the question of whether Afrikaans has (I"m not a linguist, I
just love language) been influenced by the tonal African languages it
has grown up with to develop, _beyond_ its European cousins.
those of  an entire substrate of tonal inflections

Groete, en nogmaals dank,
John

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Idiomatica

John, Lowlanders,

In Northern Germany this _ja-nee_ (literally "yes-no") is also very popular,
though it's popularity seems to be dwindling with the acceleration of
Germanization.  (People there don't seem to be as aware of this as I am,
because there are several years between my visits form overseas.)

I am pretty sure that this _ja-nee_ originated from Lowlands Saxon (Low
German), the earlier language of the land.  In this language I pronounce it
something like [dZQ:'nE.I] (approximately "jåh-ney" in English spelling, the
the "åh" as in "posh" Southern England English "father" or long Swedish
"a").  In "broadest" Missingsch (i.e., German on LS substrate) it's
pronounced the same, in "tamed" Missings or "broad" Northern German
[jQ:'ne:] ("yåh-neh"), and in more "sophisticated" Hamburg German [ja:'ne:].
I *have* heard the German(ized?) version _ja-nein_, but I am not sure if it
has the same semantic range.

As you said, this can convey all sorts of things, from being a filler to
mild disagreement, may even express surprise.  It seems semantically really
complex to me.  Much depends on context and intonation.  I could see someone
writing a voluminous dissertation about it.

I wonder if this is a general Continental Lowlands expression, if it is a
Saxonism in Afrikaans, or if it sprang up independently in the two
languages.  I suppose what we need to find out is if our friends in the
Netherlands and Belgium are familiar with it too.  Might our British friends
know of a thing like this in English and/or Scots (*_aye-na_?) dialects
even?

Thanks for bringing this up, John.

En, ja-nee, ek stem met Mark overeen: dis baie lekker om jy op hierdie lys
te hê!  Ons het meer Afrikaanse stemme nodig.

Groete,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 21 22:42:36 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:42:36 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.21 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.154236.0700.>

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.20 (08) [E]

Mike wrote about the Hannes Wader album:

> harmonica, spoons and auto-harp. With some of the tunes and the
instruments
> used, along with the style of playing, you can see where some of American
> "Country & Western" got its roots!

I'm very familiar with this album (it's been one of my favourites for 25
years, and I've even sung most of the songs at jam sessions in Oregon and
elsewhere). Actually, some of them are poems by Klaus Groth, set to Scottish
and Irish folk tunes. For example, "De Moel" uses the tune of "Kelly, the
boy from Killarne" and "Hartleed" is sung to the tune of "The Four Marys"
("Last night, there were four Marys, this night there's only three: there
was Mary Beaton, and Mary Seaton, and Mary Carmicheal, and me...").

As soon as I find the time, I can copy the text for "De Groffschmitt" from
the album cover, but it may take me a few days - I'm totally swamped with
work at the moment. Also, any other song from the album that you might like.
By the way, when the bombs started falling on Baghdad, I posted the text of
another song from the album - "De jonge Wetfru" (The young widow), as some
of you might remember. It's one of those songs that always give me the
shivers.

My medieval music group sometimes gets together for weekend-long jam
sessions with a bunch of traditional Irish musicians from Dublin. Those
guys, mostly in their fifties and sixties, really liked the traditional "Dat
du min Leefsten büst". They told me that "that's what they had always
imagined a German song must sound like".

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Literature

Thanks, Gabriele.

Folks, those of you who are interested can find some of Klaus Groth's songs
with translation and sound files at my Groth site:
http://www.geocities.com/grothwarken/

This includes the following songs Gabriele mentioned above:

De Moel [The Mill] (http://www.geocities.com/grothwarken/moel.htm)
    with a snippet of Wader's rendition

De junge Wetfru [The Young Widow]
(http://www.geocities.com/grothwarken/wetfru.htm)
    with a Midi file of the traditional tune and a snippet of Wader's
rendition

Hartleed [Sorrow] (http://www.geocities.com/grothwarken/hartleed.htm)
    with a Midi file of the traditional tune and a snippet of Wader's
rendition

I've long wanted to revamp and expand this site.  This includes adding
transliterations in ANS script.  Suggestions would be welcome.

The (somewhat naughty) love song _Dat du min Leevsten büst_ [That You're my
Sweetheart Dear]  is not a work of Klaus Groth's.

You can find sound snippets of it here:
http://www.windmoel.de/mp3/dat_du_min.mp3
http://www.grainger.de/music/cd/mp3/mp3xx00002_04.mp3
Midi: http://www.grainger.de/music/platt.html

There are numerous versions of the words of this song.  Most of them seem
linguistically somewhat suspect (i.e., have German interference), such as
_kumm!_ instead of _kaam!_ 'come!', _kammer_ instead of _kamer_ 'chamber',
and _wee(t)st_ '(thou) knowest' rhyming with _hee(t)st_ '(thou) art named'
which should be _hey(t)st_.


   DAT DU MIEN LEEVSTEN BÜST

   Dat du mien Leevsten büst, dat du woll weeßt.
   Kumm bi de Nacht, kumm bi de Nacht! Segg wo du heeßt!

   Kumm du um Mitternacht! Kumm du Klock een!
   Vader slöppt, Moder slöppt, ick slap alleen.

   Klopp an de Kammerdör! Fat an de Klink!
   Vader slöppt, Moder meent, dat deit de Wind.

Two additional (later?) verses:

   Kummt denn de Morgenstund', kreiht de ol Hahn,
   Leevsten mien, Leevsten mien, denn mößt du gahn.

   Sachen den Gang henlank, lies mit de Klink,
   Vader slöppt, Moder meent, dat deit de Wind.

***

ANS transliteration:

   DAT DU MYN LEYVSTEN BÜST

   Dat du myn leyvsten büst, dat du wol weest.
   Kum by dey nacht, kum by dey nacht! Seg, wou du heest!

   Kum du um middernacht! Kum du klok eyn!
   Vader slöpt, Mouder slöpt, ik slaap alleyn.

   Klop an dey kammerdöör! Vaat an dey klink!
   Vader slöpt, Mouder meynt, dat dayt dey wind.

Two additional (later?) verses:

   Kumt den dey morgenstund, krayt dey old haan.
   Leyvsten myn, leyvsten myn, den müst du gaan.

   Sachen den gang henlang, lys' mit dey klink,
   Vader slöpt, Mouder meynt, dat dayt dey wind.

***

Phonetic (simplified SAMPA http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/home.htm):

   dat du mi:n 'le.Ifstn bYst dat du vO.l we:st
   kU.m bi deI naxt kU.m bi deI naxt zEC vo.U du he:st

   kU.m du U.m 'mId3`naxt kU.m du klOk e.In
   'fQ:d3` sl9pt mo.Uder sl9pt Ik slQ:p a'le.In

   klOp a.n deI 'kamerd9:3` fQ:t a.n deI klI.Nk
   'fQ:d3` sl9pt mo.Uder me.Int dat da.It deI vI.nt

Two additional (later?) verses:

   kU.mt dE.n deI 'mo3`gNstU.nt kra.It deI o.l hQ:n
   'le.Ifstn mi:n le.Ifstn mi:n dE.n mYst du gQ:n

   'zaxN dEn ga.NK he.nla.Nk li:.z mIt deI klI.Nk
   'fQ:d3` sl9pt mo.Uder me.Int dat da.It deI vI.nt

***

My translation:

   THAT YOU'RE MY SWEETHEART DEAR

   That you're my sweetheart dear you surely do know.
   Come see me tonight! Whisper your name gently as you go!

   Come around midnight, at the day's first bell tone!
   Father will sleep. Mother will sleep. I'll sleep alone.

   Knock on my chamber door! Open with care!
   Father will sleep. Mother will think it's just the air.

Two additional (later?) verses:

   But when the morning brings the rooster's first crow,
   Sweetheart dear, sweetheart, that's when you must go.

   Gently sneak down the hall! Close up with care!
   Father will sleep. Mother will think it's just the air.

I sing it like this:

   DAT DU MYN LEYVSTE(N) BÜST

   Dat du myn leyvste(n) büst, dat du wol weetst.
   Kaam by dey nacht, kaam by dey nacht! Seg, wou du heetst!

   Kaam du üm middernacht! Kaam du klok eyn!
   Vadder slöpt, Mouder slöpt, ik slaap alleyn.

   Klop an dey kamerdöör! Vaat an dey klink!
   Vadder slöpt, Mouder meynt, dat dayt dey wind.

Two additional (later?) verses:

   Kümt den dey morgenstünd, krayt denn dey haan,
   Leyvste(n) myn, leyvste(n) myn, den mutst du gaan.

   Sachtens den gang hinlang, lys' mit dey klink,
   Vadder slöpt, Mouder meynt, dat dayt dey wind.

Phonetic (simplified SAMPA http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/home.htm):

   dat du mi:n 'le.Ifstn bYst dat du vO.l we:st
   kQ:m bi deI naxt kQ:m bi deI naxt zEC vo.U du he:st

   kQ:m du Y.m 'mId3`naxt kQ:m du klOk e.In
   'fad3` sl9pt mo.Uder sl9pt Ik slQ:p a'le.In

   klOp a.n deI 'kQ:merd9:3` fQ:t a.n deI klI.Nk
   'fad3` sl9pt mo.Uder me.Int dat da.It deI vI.nt

Two additional (later?) verses:

   kY.mt dE.n deI 'mo3`gNstY.nt kra.It dE.N deI hQ:n
   'le.Ifstn mi:n le.Ifstn mi:n dE.n mYst du gQ:n

   'zaxN dEn ga.NK he.nla.Nk li:.z mIt deI klI.Nk
   'fad3` sl9pt mo.Uder me.Int dat da.It deI vI.nt

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 21 22:46:59 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:46:59 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.21 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.154659.0700.>

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From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Etymology


Good Evening, Lowlanders!

Troy said: "but it does remain that "at(t)orcoppe" 'spider' does occur in
Old English. "at(t)or" = poison, venom" (realised as "adder", in
modern English); "coppe" = "head". I would tend to trust Tolkein on this
one."

I remember the word _attercop_ being used for 'spider' by some of the very
old people I knew in Lancashire in my youth.Old English was in fact
_a:torcoppe_, correctly enough from Old English  _a:tr_ / _a:t(o)r_ ; OLd
Saxon ettor ; Old High German _eitar_ (whence Modern German Eiter); Old
Norse eitr.

In Lancashire dialect the word was also used metaphorically to refer to an
evil person.

I think the connection Troy makes with _adder_ must be incorrect, since this
word originally had an initial n- : OLd English _nae:d(d)re_ ; Old Saxon
_na:dra_ ( Cf. Middle Dutch _nadre_, Modern Dutch _adder_); Old High German
_ na:tara_ (Modern German _Natter_ )> Old Norse had _nathr_ (with etha), and
Gothic _nadrs_. It probably is related to Latin _natrix_ (a water snake).
Cf. also: Welsh _neidr_ (snake, viper) and OLd Irish _nathir_.

John Duckworth
Preston, UK


----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.21 (02) [E]

Dear Troy,

Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

> That may be the case, but it does remain that "at(t)orcoppe" 'spider' does
> occur in Old English. "at(t)or" = poison, venom" (realised as "adder", in
> modern English); "coppe" = "head". I would tend to trust Tolkein on this
> one.

Well, yes. My Sweet's 'The Student's Dictionary of ANGLO-SAXON' gives
'æt(t)ren, æt(t)ern - poisonous, poisoned.' but little direct reference to
the term 'cop' or something like it to 'head'. (They favoured 'heafod -
head'). The closest is 'copp - summit' (which as an Afrikaner i find
heartily satisfying).
This doesn't mean I believe there was no such usage. On the contrary, I
believe there was. & I believe Tolkien heard it first in Afrikaans &
recognised it again, when he found it again, in Old English. The languages
are so closely related, as Mr R Hahn has pointed out in respect of so many
Lowlands languages, that there are a host of common features, including
names.
I read he found himself powerfully moved by the dialect & ancient texts of
his mother's people in the Northwest Midlands of England. I believe his
early contact with Afrikaans gave him, as it were, a foot in the door to
that Learning.
Afrikaans, in comparison to Modern English, rates as extremely conservative
(only in some respects, of course - we decline to decline, & conjugation
should only apply to consenting married couples. As for gender ---: Ahem.)
Very much of what he read as a student of that dialect must have been
immediately clear to him from Afrikaans. I know that is the case with me.

Yrs,
Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 21 23:05:39 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:05:39 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.21 (06) [A/E]
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.160539.0700.>

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.21 (03) [A/E]

Beste John en Ron,

Subject: Idiomatica

> In Northern Germany this _ja-nee_ (literally "yes-no") is also very
popular,
> though it's popularity seems to be dwindling with the acceleration of
> Germanization

> I am pretty sure that this _ja-nee_ originated from Lowlands Saxon (Low
> German), the earlier language of the land.
> I wonder if this is a general Continental Lowlands expression, if it is a
> Saxonism in Afrikaans, or if it sprang up independently in the two
> languages.  I suppose what we need to find out is if our friends in the
> Netherlands and Belgium are familiar with it too.  Might our British
friends
> know of a thing like this in English and/or Scots (*_aye-na_?) dialects
> even?

Ja-nee; ek reken saam met Reinhard is die gebruik deur VOC werknemers uit
Neder- Sakse in die Taal oorgedra. Aldus Jan Alleman in sy 'Diary' is daar
genoeg van hulle gewerf. Van Riebeek in sy dagboek het hulle werkvermoë hoog
op prys gestel. Ennnn, te wyte aan hulle 'powere Hollands' is hulle , so te
sê, op die Kaap-Stasie agtergelaat. Foei tog!
As the English-speaking South-African would say:
Ja-well-no-fine! I reckon with Reinhard that the usage was carried over into
the Taal by Low-Saxon employees of the Dutch East-India Company. According
to Jan Alleman in his Diary there were enough of them recruited. Van Riebeek
in his diary set high value on their industry. Annnnnd, owing to their 'poor
Hollands' they were, so to say, marooned on the Cape-Station. Shame!

Groete,
Mark

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Idiomatica

Liewe Mark,

Dit mag reg wees, en ek glo ook, dat die Nedersassiese bydraë in Suid-Afrika
meer aandag nodig het.  Maar ons moet versigtig wees, moet eerst vir
antwoorde van Nederland, België en Frans-Vlaanderen wag.  Maar ek hou baie
van jou geesdrif, Mark!

You may be on the right track, and I too believe that Lowlands Saxon (Low
German) contributions in South Africa require more attention.  But we ought
to be careful, ought to first wait for responses from the Netherlands,
Belgium and French Flanders.  But  I do enjoy your enthusiasm, Mark!

Groete/Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 22 00:09:33 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:09:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.21 (07) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.170933.0700.>

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From: Jan Strunk <strunkjan at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.21 (04) [E]

Leive Lüe,

toufallig hev ik de CD ouk in mien Regal staon.
> As soon as I find the time, I can copy the text for "De Groffschmitt" from
> the album cover, but it may take me a few days - I'm totally swamped with
> work at the moment. Also, any other song from the album that you might
like.
> By the way, when the bombs started falling on Baghdad, I posted the text
of
> another song from the album - "De jonge Wetfru" (The young widow), as some
> of you might remember. It's one of those songs that always give me the
> shivers.

Hier nu de text nao Wader (met de schrievwies van de CD):
Wat in klammern steiht kömmt van mi.
Ik mott daotou seggen dat he dat vüel beter utspreken deit as me nao den
beeten geelen text ünner vermoden wör. De Lüe de den text upschreven hebt,
kunnen
woll nich so good platt.

|:Een Groffschmidt seet in gode Roh:|
un schmök sien Piep Tobak dar to.
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|: War klappt denn dar an miene Dör:| (sull woll eigentlich: "Wat kloppt
denn dar an miene Dör" heten...)
as wenns de Düwel sülber wär?
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|:Wat schrifft he denn, mien leve Fritz:|
de up de Universität rumflitzt?
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|:He hett sick mit de Kieler slan:|
un schall nich mehr collegen gahn.
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|:De Fritz de wahnt in'n golden Stern,:|
dar hebbt em all de Deerns so gern.
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|:Ick schall man gau nah Kiel henkamen:|
un schall dem Bengel dat Fell versahlen.
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|:Un as he denn nah Kiel henkeem:|
un glieks em in Empfang wull nehmen.
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|:Hess du di mit de Kieler slan:|
un schasst nich mehr collegen gahn?
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

Guten Tag, guten Tag, der Herr Papa,
seid ihr denn auch schon wieder da?
Es freut mich sehr, Sie hier zu sehn',
wie mags mit meinem Wechsel stehn'?

|:Von dienen Wessel hol dat Mul:|
du Aas, du Biest, du Röbenschwien.
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

Was hab ich Euch zu leid getan?
So fährt man keinen Burschen an!
Den ganzen Tag hab ich studiert
und abends auch noch kommersiert.

|:Dat Rumpusseern dat schasst man lat'n:|
schasst lever up'n Amboss slan!
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

Zwei Freunde hatten sich entzweit
und forderten sich auf zum Streit,
ich aber lud sie in mein Haus
und gab dann den Versöhnungsschmaus.

|:Von dien Versöhnung schwieg man still,:|
ich will wohl weten, wat ick will. (Sull woll "Ick will woll weten"
heten...)
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|:Pack man dien Kram, nu is dat ut,:|
wi fahrt mit'n ersten Zug nah Hus.
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|:Lat mi hierblieb'n, ick doht nich mehr,:|
dat is so schlimm nich worden hier.
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|:Nee, nee, mien Jung, nu geihst du mit,:|
dat is nu ut, nu warste Schmitt.
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|:Gott segne diene studia,:|
ut di ward nix, halleluja!
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

Deit mi leed, apatt ik hev vanaovend kien tied to'n översetten mehr.
Villicht kunn dat je een van ink daon!

Beste gröten!

Jan Strunk
of ouk: Mester Johann
strunk at linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 22 14:27:15 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 07:27:15 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Oral tradition" 2004.07.22 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.072715.0700.>

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From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Oral Tradition


Sandy wrote:

"All this talk of Arthur still leaves me wondering why there's such a
strong
tradition of Merlin in Berwickshire, though."

There is a legend that Merlin died in the village of Drumelzier in
Peeblesshire (on the confluence of the River Tweed and the Powsail Burn),
stoned to death by frightened villagers, and that his tomb is located there.
The grave is marked by a plaque.

In Stobo in Peebles there is a curious ancient stone and the locals relate
that the marks on its upper surface were made by a witch who turned into a
hare when being hunted by Merlin.

In Moffat in Dumfriesshire there is a legend that Merlin fled to Hartfell
after being defeated in battle in 573. A number of local geographical
features are also named after Arthurian characters: there is an Arthur's
Seat here too, and a Merlin's Cave (near Newton Farm, for the curious).

The name or Merlin (Welsh Myrddin) appears in the form _Mirdyn_ in the Old
(or Middle) Welsh poem _Y Gododdin_, that may well have been written in a
Brythonic Edinburgh. Unfortunately it only appears once, and only in a later
version, which suggests that it may be a later interpolation.

John Duckworth
Preston, UK

----------

From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Oral tradition" 2004.07.20 (05) [E]

Someone (sorry, lost the thread ... wrote
>> And why do archeologists still keep digging in Wales for evidence of
>Arthur
>> when they never manage to find anything? The idea that Avalon or Camelot
>was
>> at Glastonbury in Somerset is an obvious linguistic gaffe - Arthur was
>said
>> to have built a city of glass, but the "glas" in Glastonbury refers to
the
>> woad that used to be grown there (cf Welsh "glas" - "blue/grey/green").

First, to correct the impression given by the close proximity of these
two sentences: Somerset is not in Wales.

Second, 'why do archaeologists still keep digging ....'.  There are now
in the UK two kinds of archaeologists.  The majority of archaeological
activity (excavation, fieldwalking, desktop research, building analysis,
etc.) is undertaken as part of the licensed destruction process.  The
developer has to pay for archaeological work as a condition of being
given permission to destroy.

These ('commercial' or 'rescue') archaeological activities should be
framed by a research agenda: i.e. developer decides to build new factory
just outside Swansea.  The archaeological unit which has been given the
work (by a competitive tendering process) and the planning process
itself both contribute to a list of questions which the excavation might
answer.  If, for example, worked flints have been found there in
previous field walking, the investigation might include looking closely
at the Neolithic.  If local legend says that the site was used in the
19th century by charcoal burners, investigation might include looking
closely for traces of that process.

So if local legend says 'Arthur had a castle in that field', then the
research agenda will possibly say 'is there any evidence of
fortification, or other use, in a period which might be considered
'Arthurian' - i.e. from about 200 to about 1200.  That is not the same
thing at all as looking for Arthur.  But it will come through to the
popular press that the archaeologists are looking for Arthur!

The other kind of archaeological investigation is 'research
archaeology', carried out by universities and avocational
archaeologists.  Here the site is chosen, in part, for its potential to
answer questions in a research framework. The research agenda might
include questions where 'Arthur' is mentioned - but this would, I think,
never be 'Did Arthur live here?' or 'Did Arthur exist?'.  Rather, they
would be translating 'Arthur' in local tradition to 'early occupation',
and asking what material remains might have prompted the tradition, or
the tradition may be recalling.

Similarly, now that Arthur is given an early post-Roman date, many
research questions that are addressing that period are translated (by
the media, or by archaeologists) into 'Arthur', because that will give
the public some idea of 'when' they are looking: e.g. 'what use was made
of this Roman fort in the early post-Roman period' becomes 'Did Arthur
use this fort?'

So, I am afraid, for the writer, the answer is that archaeologists are
not looking for Arthur _anywhere_, rather than that they are looking
particularly hard in Wales.  When we have the luxury of choosing the
questions for ourselves, we have much more interesting ones to deal with
than 'Where was Camelot?'

With best wishes,

Pat

(research student in archaeology, asking questions about how people
identified themselves as 'Dutch' outside of the Low Countries in the
1600s and 1700s)

--
Pat Reynolds
pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk
   "It might look a bit messy now,
                    but just you come back in 500 years time"
   (T. Pratchett)

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 22 14:59:01 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 07:59:01 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.22 (02) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.075901.0700.>

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From: yasuji <yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Literature

Dear Lowland Friends,

You can hear the song "Dat du mien Leefsten büst" the first stanza and the
second stanza:

http://www.blancke-trio.de/

I think there are several varionations of the lyric of this songs. I don't
from where this song is originated. Please adivse where ist the original
place.

Hartlich Groten,

Yasuji Waki, ut Japan

----------

From: Szelog, Mike <Mike.Szelog at citizensbank.com>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.21 (07) [E/LS]

The version that Mr. Strunk submitted is indeed the version I know of this
song - Looks like there was a verse left out though; before the third verse
"Wat schrifft he denn....." is where I remember the verse " |:Dat is een
Brief van de Kieler Post:| dey twee un twining Penning kost. Ziru......."

Again, sorry for the poor rendition of the dialect - going by memory here.

Mike S
Manchester, NH - USA

BTW - I got this quite a while ago on tape (actually someone copied it for
me), is it available on CD?!

From: Jan Strunk <strunkjan at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.21 (04) [E]

Leive Lüe,

toufallig hev ik de CD ouk in mien Regal staon.
> As soon as I find the time, I can copy the text for "De Groffschmitt" from
> the album cover, but it may take me a few days - I'm totally swamped with
> work at the moment. Also, any other song from the album that you might
like.
> By the way, when the bombs started falling on Baghdad, I posted the text
of
> another song from the album - "De jonge Wetfru" (The young widow), as some
> of you might remember. It's one of those songs that always give me the
> shivers.

Hier nu de text nao Wader (met de schrievwies van de CD):
Wat in klammern steiht kömmt van mi.
Ik mott daotou seggen dat he dat vüel beter utspreken deit as me nao den
beeten geelen text ünner vermoden wör. De Lüe de den text upschreven hebt,
kunnen
woll nich so good platt.

|:Een Groffschmidt seet in gode Roh:|
un schmök sien Piep Tobak dar to.
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|: War klappt denn dar an miene Dör:| (sull woll eigentlich: "Wat kloppt
denn dar an miene Dör" heten...)
as wenns de Düwel sülber wär?
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|:Wat schrifft he denn, mien leve Fritz:|
de up de Universität rumflitzt?
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|:He hett sick mit de Kieler slan:|
un schall nich mehr collegen gahn.
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|:De Fritz de wahnt in'n golden Stern,:|
dar hebbt em

|:Ick schall man gau nah Kiel henkamen:|
un schall dem Bengel dat Fell versahlen.
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|:Un as he denn nah Kiel henkeem:|
un glieks em in Empfang wull nehmen.
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|:Hess du di mit de Kieler slan:|
un schasst nich mehr collegen gahn?
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

Guten Tag, guten Tag, der Herr Papa,
seid ihr denn auch schon wieder da?
Es freut mich sehr, Sie hier zu sehn',
wie mags mit meinem Wechsel stehn'?

|:Von dienen Wessel hol dat Mul:|
du Aas, du Biest, du Röbenschwien.
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

Was hab ich Euch zu leid getan?
So fährt man keinen Burschen an!
Den ganzen Tag hab ich studiert
und abends auch noch kommersiert.

|:Dat Rumpusseern dat schasst man lat'n:|
schasst lever up'n Amboss slan!
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

Zwei Freunde hatten sich entzweit
und forderten sich auf zum Streit,
ich aber lud sie in mein Haus
und gab dann den Versöhnungsschmaus.

|:Von dien Versöhnung schwieg man still,:|
ich will wohl weten, wat ick will. (Sull woll "Ick will woll weten"
heten...)
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|:Pack man dien Kram, nu is dat ut,:|
wi fahrt mit'n ersten Zug nah Hus.
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|:Lat mi hierblieb'n, ick doht nich mehr,:|
dat is so schlimm nich worden hier.
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|:Nee, nee, mien Jung, nu geihst du mit,:|
dat is nu ut, nu warste Schmitt.
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|:Gott segne diene studia,:|
ut di ward nix, halleluja!
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

Deit mi leed, apatt ik hev vanaovend kien tied to'n översetten mehr.
Villicht kunn dat je een van ink daon!

Beste gröten!

Jan Strunk
of ouk: Mester Johann
strunk at linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Literature

Yasuji wrote above:

> You can hear the song "Dat du mien Leefsten büst" the first stanza and the
> second stanza:
>
> http://www.blancke-trio.de/

Thanks.  That's an interesting redition.

What bothers me about most renditions is that they make the song sound like
some sort of church hymn or lullaby.  People seem to forget that this is a
love song with a "naughty" proposition.

> I think there are several varionations of the lyric of this songs. I don't
> from where this song is originated. Please adivse where ist the original
> place.

I'm not sure anyone knows, but I'll do a bit of rummaging in books in hopes
of finding some information.  Perhaps someone else knows the answer and can
spare me the work.

Mike wrote above:

> BTW - I got this quite a while ago on tape (actually someone copied it for
> me), is it available on CD?!

Yep! Here it is:

Hannes Wader, _Plattdeutsche Lieder_, April 10, 1990, Mercury
(Universal/Polygram), ASIN: B0000085AD

Contents:


  1.. De Groffschmidt
  2.. Jehann
  3.. Lütt Anna Susanna
  4.. Dor weer enmol en lüttje Buurdeern
  5.. Dat du mien Leefsten büst
  6.. Lustig reed he
  7.. He sä mi so vel
  8.. De Moel
  9.. Keen Graff is so breet
  10.. Lütt Matten
  11.. De junge Wetfru
  12.. Hartleed
  13.. Trina (Trina, komm mal voer de Doer)
  14.. Dat Hus inne Masch (Dar buten inne Masch)

At Amazon (though this is not a commercial endorsement):
Canada:
http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000085AD/qid=1090508088/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/701-6425516-9536329
(CAN$23.99, but also offered at as low as CAN$18.42 -- I bought it in Canada
about 7 years ago, and it was under CAN$15 then.)
France:
http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000085AD/qid=1090508230/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/402-5479704-1184910
(EUR 10.35)
Germany:
http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000085AD/qid=1090508138/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i4_xgl/302-9564695-3284860
(reduced to EUR 6.66 -- scroll down to hear a snippet of each song)
Japan: Not in stock
UK: Not in stock
USA:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000085AD/qid=1090508048/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-8851052-4041512?v=glance&s=music
(US$18.99)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 22 15:00:20 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:00:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.22 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.080020.0700.>

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From: D.M.Pennington <dmpmos at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.21 (06) [A/E]

Sirs:

In Lancashire they say : "Yay and Nay".

They do in my part of that county, anyroad!

Problem is, normally "yay" is restricted to women as an emphatic "yes".

Men in my neck of the woods say: "Yah it is!" or "Nay it's not!" when
contradicting.

By the way, I'm not "British", I'm English.

The "British" were Celts.

Pennington

Moscow

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 22 15:03:02 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:03:02 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2004.07.22 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.080302.0700.>

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From: HALLS Haeng-Cho <zzhhalls at student.uq.edu.au>
Subject:


Pat

(research student in archaeology, asking questions about how people
identified themselves as 'Dutch' outside of the Low Countries in the
1600s and 1700s)


Your research subject caught my eye, Pat. I would be most interested to know
how that  is faring :)

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 22 15:30:26 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:30:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.22 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.083026.0700.>

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From: Szelog, Mike <Mike.Szelog at citizensbank.com>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.22 (02) [E/LS]

THANKS!! I'll have to update my collection!

Mike S

Mike wrote above:

> BTW - I got this quite a while ago on tape (actually someone copied it for
> me), is it available on CD?!

Yep! Here it is:

Hannes Wader, _Plattdeutsche Lieder_, April 10, 1990, Mercury
(Universal/Polygram), ASIN: B0000085AD

Contents:

  1.. De Groffschmidt
  2.. Jehann
  3.. Lütt Anna Susanna
  4.. Dor weer enmol en lüttje Buurdeern
  5.. Dat du mien Leefsten büst
  6.. Lustig reed he
  7.. He sä mi so vel
  8.. De Moel
  9.. Keen Graff is so breet
  10.. Lütt Matten
  11.. De junge Wetfru
  12.. Hartleed
  13.. Trina (Trina, komm mal voer de Doer)
  14.. Dat Hus inne Masch (Dar buten inne Masch)

At Amazon (though this is not a commercial endorsement):
Canada:
http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000085AD/qid=1090508088/ref=sr_8_xs_
ap_i1_xgl/701-6425516-9536329
(CAN$23.99, but also offered at as low as CAN$18.42 -- I bought it in Canada
about 7 years ago, and it was under CAN$15 then.)
France:
http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000085AD/qid=1090508230/ref=sr_8_xs_
ap_i1_xgl/402-5479704-1184910
(EUR 10.35)
Germany:
http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000085AD/qid=1090508138/ref=sr_8_xs_
ap_i4_xgl/302-9564695-3284860
(reduced to EUR 6.66 -- scroll down to hear a snippet of each song)
Japan: Not in stock
UK: Not in stock
USA:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000085AD/qid=1090508048/sr=1
-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-8851052-4041512?v=glance&s=music
(US$18.99)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Literature

You're welcome, Mike.

Here's another full MP3 recording, of a performance by the group De
QuarteersLüüd :
http://quarteerslued.de/songs/mp3/ql_datdu.m3u

De song is believed to be from Schleswig-Holstein, and I see the rough
estimate of 1800 flying around as the date of origin.  I'm taking all that
with a grain of salt for now.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 22 19:41:33 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:41:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Oral tradition" 2004.07.22 (06) [E/German]
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.124133.0700.>

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Oral tradition" 2004.07.22 (01) [E]

Dear John,

Subject: Oral Tradition

Good stuff on Merlin! If there were a 'Matter of Britain' web page of the
calibre of Reinhard's 'L-Lowlands', bet I'd be on it like a shot. I won't be
alone, I think.

Yrs,
Mark

Dear Pat,

Same to you, on archaeology. The historical record is, as I aver, 'cooked'.
In my opinion the only hope of a reliable 'History' of Britain covering the
late Roman to early Anglo-Saxon period is a distant prospect: & it will be
the product of gradual, methodical archaeological research testing the
local -
& I insist on the term 'local', folk record. There is too much speculative
scholarship on the Arthurian period, starting, I think, with Ol' Geoff, & it
gets worse every year. I won't say I dislike the speculation, I speculate
myself, but I confess I suspect I like it in the wrong way, for the wrong
reasons.

Regards,
Mark

P.S.

> (research student in archaeology, asking questions about how people
> identified themselves as 'Dutch' outside of the Low Countries in the
> 1600s and 1700s)

Is this (above) a serious statement? If so, you are about to be so snowed
under!

----------

From: HALLS Haeng-Cho <zzhhalls at student.uq.edu.au>
Subject:


Ach Wei!!!
so ein Heimweh für Deutschland habe ich bekommen als ich das Lied nach so
vielen Jahren noch mal zu hören bekam!

so was gibt's nirgendwo sonst auf der Welt, außer vielleicht auch in Holland
:)

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 22 20:35:15 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:35:15 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.22 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.133515.0700.>

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From: Troy Sagrillo <meshwesh at bigfoot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.21 (05) [E]

on 22.07.2004 12.46 AM, John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> Troy said: "but it does remain that "at(t)orcoppe" 'spider' does occur in
> Old English. "at(t)or" = poison, venom" (realised as "adder", in
> modern English); "coppe" = "head".

[snip]

> I think the connection Troy makes with _adder_ must be incorrect, since
this
> word originally had an initial n- : OLd English _nae:d(d)re_ ; Old Saxon
> _na:dra_ ( Cf. Middle Dutch _nadre_, Modern Dutch _adder_)

Yes, that is correct. My apologies for repeating a folk etymology on the
list.  Indeed it was the Dutch (and my faulty memory) that lead me to regard
it as being correct.

I noticed in Clark Hall's Concise Anglo-Saxon Dictionary that besides
atorcoppe, Old English also has atorloppe, loppe, and spithre ["th" = eth]
for "spider". Loppe is apparently related to loppestre, lopust (both used
for lobster and locust). Presumably these forms are related to "lope
[(broken) walk)]; leap", but I am not sure.

Standard Dutch has "spin" for "spider", but "spinnekop" is fairly widely
used I believe, at least in the north of Flanders (the Kempen). Is it used
elsewhere in Flanders and/or the Netherlands?

Cheers,

Troy

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Etymology

Middle Dutch has _coppe_ and _cobbe_, retained (as _koppe_, _kobbe_) in
various Flemish dialects.  (Also in Zeelandic?)

Westphalian Lowlands Saxon (Low German) dialects (also Twente ones?) have
_kobbe_.

There's the Proto-Germanic reconstruction *_aitra-_ "poisonous ulcer":  Old
English _átr_, _átor_ and _attor_ (> Middle English _ōter_), Old Saxon
_êtar_ (> _edder_ etc.), Old German _eitar_ and _eittar_ (> _Eiter_), Old
Norse _eitr_ (> _etter_, _edder_, etc.) and the like seem to have begun with
the sense of 'pus', 'corrupt matter from sores, etc.', and later variously
added on the values 'bitterness', 'gall' as well as 'poison', 'venom' of
snakes, spiders, etc.  Apparently, _atter_ is still a commonly used Scots
word denoting 'corrupt matter', 'pus'.

Slavonic for 'venom': Russian яд _jad_, Polish _jad_, Czech _jed_.  Related
or coincidental?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 22 21:12:03 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:12:03 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativa" 2004.07.22 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.141203.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Administrativa

Dear Lowlanders,

Does any of you know whom the following Canadian email address belongs to?

d2d at shaw.ca
(ESMTP id <0I1900MEVT6OV9P0 at pd6mr6no.prod.shaw.ca>)

It appears to be someone's alternative address to which he or she
automatically redirects Lowlands-L mail.  This account has been filled over
quota for quite a few weeks now, and I have been getting at least one
delivery error message for each LL-L installment I have sent out ...  Yet, I
can't unsubscribe this person because I do not know which of our subscribed
addresses is linked with it.  It's SOOO annoying!  If it's yours, and you
come forward and tell me so, I promise I won't "scream" at you.  Just do,
please!

This is to everyone: please don't do this sort of thing to us.  If you have
LL-L mailings rerouted, please let us know what the reroute address is.
We'll make a note of it and will be able to handle the situation should
there be any error.  Thanks for being considerate.

Welcome to our New Lowlanders!  I'll mention you again and will list your
places of residence in my next biweekly message.  In the meantime, PLEASE
read the rules before you send out posting submissions:
http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules.  Some of you, including
"older" Lowlanders keep making the same mistakes.

Thanks for your cooperation!

Regards,
Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
Founder & Administrator, Lowlands-L
lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
http://www.lowlands-l.net

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 22 23:27:34 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:27:34 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2004.07.22 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.162734.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Identity

Folks,

I've collected a few Middle English ethnonyms of the Lowlands along with
"telling" quotes.  I think material like this can tell us quite a bit about
a time when ethnic groups and countries were not seen in the way they are
nowadays.

Enjoy, and think about it!
Reinhard/Ron

***


LOWLANDS ETHNONYMS IN MIDDLE ENGLISH
(Middle English Dictionary: http://ets.umdl.umich.edu/m/med/)

BRABANT:
Brabān (n.), also Barbain
   A person of Brabant
   A surname
   ___ cloth (a kind of linen made in Brabant)

Select quotes:
"A Braban brwed þat bale." [1425]
"For xij ellys of braban cloth for awbys & amysses." [1446]
"He went to Roome with Flemynges and Barbayns." [1543]

***

FLEMING:
Flēming (n.), also Flæming (early), Flemming, Flameng (surname)
   (1) Inhabitant of Flanders or most Low-Franconian-speaking areas
   (2) Pedlar [Competition in trade colored the Englishman's view of the
Flemmings
   from the 14. cent. on; see esp. quots. 1390, a1450, a1500.]
   (3) A surname

Select quotes:
"Þe Flemmynges þat woneþ in þe weste side of Wales haueþ ileft her straunge
speche and spekeþ Saxonliche inow." [1387]
"Certes, he Iaake Straw and his meynee ne made neuere shoutes half so
shrille, Whan that they wolden any Flemyng kille, As thilke day was maad vp
on the fox." [1390]
"And many fflemmynges loste here heedes at that tyme." [1435]
"Alle maner alienes and strangers, as wel Frensshmen and Picardes as
Flemmynges." [1436]
"But ye Flemmyngis, yf ye be not wrothe, The grete substaunce of youre
cloothe..ye make hit of oure Englissh wolle." [1450-1500]
What hath thenne Flaundres, be Flemmynges leffe or lothe, But a lytell
madere and Flemmyshe cloothe? [1450-1500]
"He was a Flemynge born in Flaundrys." [1460]
"Þys lond was full of Flemyngys and so ouersette wyth hom, þat a man myght
not goo bytwyx townes for hom vnrobbet." [1500]

***

GERMAN/DUTCH(/CONTINENTAL SAXON):
Dūch (adj. & n.), also duche, deuch(e, dusche.
   German; also, Dutch
   ___ tonge, the German language; also, any of the non-Scandinavian
continental
   Germanic languages; (a) the German language; also, Dutch, Low German,
etc.;

   heigher ___, High German; louer ___, Low German
   surname.

Select quotes:
"Edward..gat..Edgar Adelynge..Þis word Adelyng is compownede in Duche and in
Saxon [Higd.(2): after the langage of Saxons; L Saxonice] of Adel..and
lyng." [1387]
"Þe kayser Lowis of Bauere..And..Princes and pople [of Brabant]..Al þat spac
with Duche tung." [1425]
"Than leuyd stille..sche þat was hys wife, a Dewche woman." [1438]
"A man whech cowd neiþyr wel wryten Englysch ne Duch." [1438]
"Ther saugh I..Pipers of the Duche tonge." [1450]
"Þe booke..was neiþyr good Englysch ne Dewch." [1483]
"In Duche, a rudder is a knyght." [1500] {LS/Dutch _ridder_, G _Ritter_
'knight' – RFH}
"The Northe est Contrey..whiche lond spekyn all maner Duche tonge, hyer
Dowche and lower Duche." [1500]

***

DUTCH:
Holander or Hollander
   A person of Holland

Select quotes:
"The town of Gaund have graunted hym xv ml. men..and beth redy at alle oures
at his comaundement, wythoute Hollanders, Zelanders, Brabanders."
[1435-1436]
"Þe some of x li. wich þe said William surmytteth of his godes to be
deliuered by the said Ric to an holander." [1440]
"To enquere who were takers of any of þe Hollanders & Zellanders goodes."
[1443]

***

Frīse (n.(1)), also Frisia, Frisie, Fres(e).
   Frisia [in some quots. confused with Phrygia]

Select quotes:
"Frisia [L Frisia, Frigia] is a lond vppon þe clyue of þe west occean, and
bygynneþ in þe souþ side from þe Ryne, and endeþ at þe see of Denmark."
[1387]
"Frisia is a prouynce in þe neþer ende of Germania." [1398]
"Þe Ryne..streccheþ to Braban þat is ny3e to ffrigia [Tol: frigia; L frisie]
in þe souþe syde." [1398]
"Þe kyngdames he schuld lese Both of Saxon and Sueue, Teutonie and Frese."
[1440]
"The were lever to be take in Frise [rime: suffyse] Than eft to falle of
weddynge in the trappe." [1450]
"By tempestes of the sea he was putte into Frisia." [1475]

Frīslōnd (n.), also Frisland, Frēselaund
   Frisia

Select quotes:
"Of Gutlonde ich wulle leden ten þuseond of þan leoden and of Frislonde fif
þusend monnen." [1275]
"A marchaunde of Fryslande." [1306]

***

NORTHUMBRIA:
North-humbre (n.), also northumbre & (error) norþhober
   Northumbria, people of Northumbria

Select quotes:
"Voure kinges hii made þo in þis kinedom, Þe king of westsex and of kent, &
of norþhober þe þridde, & þe kyng of þe march þat was here amidde." [1325"
"Al þe longage of þe Norþhumbres [Higd.(2): men of Northumbrelonde; L
Northimbrorum], and specialliche at 3ork, is so scharp, slitting, and
frotynge and vnschape, þat we souþerne men may þat longage vnneþe
vnderstonde." [1387]

***

SAXON:
Saxon (n.), also saxone, saxson, saxoun, saxun, -(i)an, -oin(e, sexon, -un &
saison, sa(i)sne, sesso(u)n, -oine, sesoigne.
   member of the Germanic tribe that invaded, conquered, and settled in
England, a Saxon; (b) *est (south) saxones*, people from the kingdom of the
East (South) Saxons; *west ___*, q.v.
   (a) The language of the Saxons; (b) the English language.
   (a) The land inhabited by the Saxons on the Continent; Saxony; (b) *est
(south, west) __*, the kingdom or area of the East (South, West) Saxons in
England [see also *West Saxon* n.].
   As adj.: of or belonging to the Saxons; *___ speche (tonge)*, the English
language.
   Surname

Select quotes:
"Men of Saxonia woneþ toward þe norþ endes of occean..and hatte Saxones of
saxum, þat is, a stoon." [1387]
"Kyng Alredes turned alle in fere out of Latyn in to Saxon speche." [1387]
"Walsch Men beþ Bretouns of kynde..Englysch men beþ Saxoynes." [1425]
"Þe walsch man Breton Seyþ & clepeþ vs Sayson." [1425]
"Mochel peple thei Slowen..of þe hethene oþer sesoignes." [1450]
"There comme to Ynglonde or Briteyne thre my3hty peple of Germany, as
Saxons, Englische men, and Iutes." [1475]
"We haue herde the trouthe that the sasnes [F li sesne] of the kyn of
Aungier, of Saxoyne, be entred in-to oure londes and in-to oure heritages."
[1500]
"He [Woden] was dryghtyn, derrest of ydols praysid, And þe solempnest of his
sacrifices in Saxon londes." [1500]

***

SCOT:
Scot (n.(1)), also scotte, scote, skot(te, schot(te & (in names) sckot,
scod(e-, schote, scos-, sceot, shot(t)es-, sot(t)es-, stodes-, settes-,
chettes-; pl. scottes, etc. & (chiefly early, gen.) scottene, (early gen.)
scotten, scotta, scotte & (?error) sottes.
   inhabitant of Scotland; a native Scot; a Scottish soldier; -- sometimes
used
   anachronisticall
   ___ lede, Scotland, the Scots
   ___ riveling, a derogatory nickname for a Scot
   ___ thede, kingdom (land, reaume) of scottes, Scotland
   ___ wade (water), the Firth of Forth
   ___ wath, the Solway Firth
   scottes king, king (prince) of scottes, the king of Scotland or of the
Scots
   langage of scottes, Gaelic
   tame ___, a Lowland Scot
   wilde ___, a Gaelic-speaking inhabitant of north or west Scotland, a
Highland Scot;
   (c) as a term of abuse; (d) Scotland; -- also pl.; (e) an inhabitant of
Ireland; also,
   a person, orig. Irish, who came to and settled in Scotland
   ___ of ir-lond, irish ___, peple of scottes; (f) mistransl. of OF sot
fool;
   (g) in surnames; (h) in place names

Select quotes:
"Heo hæfden..of Yrlonde Gillemaur þene stronge, of Scottene heo hafden alle
þa hæhsten & of Galeweoðe gumen swiðe kene." [1275]
"Þe king [Arthur] was toward scottlond & awreke him he þo3te Of scottes & of
picars þat euere euele him wro3te." [1325]
"When a scot ne may hym hude ase hare in forme þat þe englysshe ne shal hym
fynde." [1325]
"Scottes [L Scoti] beeþ i-cleped as it were Scites, for he com out of
Scythia." [1387]
"Alla, kyng of al Northumberlond..was ful wys and worthy of his hond Agayn
the Scottes." [1390]
"Now in Brytayne..fyue naciouns woneþ þerynne; þat beeþ Scottes in Albania,
þat is, Scotlond, Britouns in Cambria, þat is, Wales..Flemmynges..Normans,
and Englischemen." [1387]
"Schame bityde þe Skottes, for þai er full of gile." [1425]
"Hairy Scot [L Scotte], footed with a boot, wast thou not at the wrestlyng
in þe cruk on þe mowne?" [1450]
"Then mett hur..dyverce othir nacions, as Esterlynges, Espaynnardes, Lucans,
and Scottes; and all were on horsebacke savyng the Scottes, which were all
on fote." [1468]
"The water of Twide..departethe now of the este parte Englische men from
Scottes." [1475]
"He..lete calle þe toune Berwik vp Twede, and þere þai duellede..þai went
ouere þe see into Irland and brou3t with ham Wymmen..but þe men couþe nou3t
vnderstonde þe langage ne þe speche of þe wymmen, neyþer þe wymmen of þe
men, and þerefore þai speken to-gederes as scottes [F sootz]." [1400]

***

ZEELAND:
Sēland (n.), also selande, selond(e, selan, selandia & zel(l)and
   The county of Zealand in the Netherlands
   ___ cloth 'a kind of cloth made in Zealand'
   Title of a herald

Select quotes:
"In eiþer Germania beeþ..Lothoringia, Frisia, Selandia." [1387]
"His wyf and his children..he lefte hem at Andwerp in Selond [L Selandia]."
[1387]
"Selonde [L Selandia] is an londe by þe see syde." [1398]
"She..com in to a tovne of her owne in to Seland [LCCleo. 129: Selan] that
ys cleped Seryze." [1435]
"A commission..to comune & trete &c. with þe commissairs of Holland &
Zelland." [1443]
"I have her at this tyme all the cheff schyppys of Duchelond, Holond,
Selond, and Flaundrys." [1449]
"Wee in Braban bye, Flaundres and Seland, more of marchaundy..then done all
other nacions..The marchaundry of Brabane and Selande Be madre and woade."
[1450-1500]
"Allso in that yere whas cryed pees betwixt Englond and Selond, holond, and
ffreslond perpetuell." [1450]
"Item, j pece of Seland clothe, with dyvers sealys at the endys." [1459]

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 22 23:53:10 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:53:10 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.22 (10) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.165310.0700.>

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Idiomatica

Beste Ron (en ook Mark natuurlijk),

Brabantish also has "ja-nee" in certain circumstances. When somebody
proposes something, and the addressed person is not particularly interested,
he/she might reply "ja-nee". For example:

A: "Érre gin goeste vö vanaved mee te gaan danse?" (B) , "Would you like to
go dancing this evening?" (E)
B: "Ja, nië zö...'k zèn vö te müüg" (B) "Definitely not, I'm way too tired"
(E)

In "ja-nee" the "ja" seems to affirm, to confirm the "no" (note that English
can stress through repetition, for example "That's a no-no"). Standard Dutch
will rather use "welneen" in this case (or "neenwel" in the 19th century).
When somebody wants to deny an earlier made negation, he/she will usually
say "Da's wel" or "Da's jawel" in Brabantish.

Re "negation", I would like to add that in 1958 Dr. J. L. Pauwels published
a very fine article titled "De expletieve ontkenning nie(t) aan het einde
van de zin in het Zuidnederlands en het Afrikaans" in which he conclusively
shows that "het Afrikaanse systeem een versterkte calque schijnt te zijn van
het Zuidbrabantse systeem". Then he writes 43 pages, analyzing both systems,
finally concluding:

"Uit de overeenstemming tussen het Afrikaans en het Zuidnederlands ten
opzichte van het gebruik van afsluitend nie wil ik niet besluiten tot een
Zuidnederlandse herkomst van het Afrikaans. Immers, het lijkt me niet
uitgesloten dat eerstdaags een Noordnederlands dialectoloog ons verrast met
de mededeling, dat hij ook ergens boven de Moerdijk het gebruik van nie in
de nog levende volkstaal heeft aangetroffen. De nochtans schaarse
aanwijzingen die Nienaber daaromtrent heeft verstrekt, maken dat voor mij
waarschijnlijk. Het is mijns inziens niet vermetel te beweren, dat de
Nederlandse emigranten die voor het ontstaan van het Afrikaans
verantwoordelijk zijn, het zogenaamde specifiek Afrikaanse negatiesysteem
uit Europa hebben meegebracht en dat iets in de aard van het huidige
Aarschotse systeem moet worden beschouwd als het prototype van het
Afrikaanse. Ik meen dat deze studie bewezen heeft, dat het Afrikaanse
systeem nog niet ver is afgedwaald" van zijn voorganger. Alleen is de
eindnegatie duidelijker tot uiting gekomen, "tastbaarder" geworden, ik
bedoel noodzakelijk, waar ze vroeger slechts facultatief was, ze is dus een
vaster taalelement geworden. De modaliteiten van het gebruik van eind-nie
zijn grosso modo nog dezelfde en de zeldzame afwijkingen die we vaststelden,
schijnen nog grotendeels te ontbreken in het Afrikaans van nog geen eeuw
geleden."

Side-note: As far as I know, this Northern Dutch dialectologist to whom
Pauwels is referring in his conclusion has not showed up yet. Please anybody
correct me if I'm wrong.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

***

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Interesting, Luc!

Afrikaners (or is that "Afrikaansers" these days?),

Don't you also use the tag _... nê?_ or _... nè?_ where English uses tag
questions ("..., isn't it?", "..., don't you?" etc.), Standard German uses
_..., nicht wahr?_ (dialectal _..., net?_, _..., gell(e)?_, etc.) and French
uses _..., n'est pas?_?

In Missingsch (i.e., German dialects on Lowlands Saxon substrates) and in
North German dialects influenced by Missingsch, it's _..., nä?_ also,
pronounced virtually identically with Afrikaans _... nê?_.  Some
"ete-petete" Hamburgers (those that want to come across as more
sophisticated than their linguistic roots permit) will say _..., näch?_,
influenced by German _..., nicht (wahr)?_.  It tends to be _..., ne_ in
Lowlands Saxon (Low German) also, usually pronounced [nE] also.

Examples:

LS:
Dat 's ja man 'n beten düyr, ne? (That's a bit expensive, isn't it?)
Vundaag' kümt Vadder trügg, ne, Oma? (Dad will come home today, won't he,
Gramma?)
Tou dummerhaftig, ne? ((It's) Really stupid, ain't it?)

Hamburg Missingsch:
Dascha man 'n büschen teua, nä?  (That's a bit expensive, isn't it?)
Heude kommt Pappa wieda, nä, Oma? (Dad will come home today, won't he,
Gramma?)
Zu blöde, nä? ((It's) Really stupid, ain't it?)

Does this ring familiar to Afrikaans ears?  How about the ears of the Low
Franconian areas?

In some contexts it's similar to "..., huh?_ in some English dialects, I
suppose.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 22 23:56:35 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:56:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.22 (11) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.165635.0700.>

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From: Jan Strunk <strunkjan at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.22 (02) [E/LS]

Leive Lüe,

> The version that Mr. Strunk submitted is indeed the version I know of this
> song - Looks like there was a verse left out though; before the third
verse
> "Wat schrifft he denn....." is where I remember the verse " |:Dat is een
> Brief van de Kieler Post:| dey twee un twining Penning kost. Ziru......."
Mea culpa. Heff ik woll een vergeten...

|:Dat is en Breef von de Kieler Post:|
de tweeuntwüntig Penning kost. (Ik glööv Hannes Wader singt aover: hett
tweeuntwintig Penning kost.)
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

> Yep! Here it is:
>
> Hannes Wader, _Plattdeutsche Lieder_, April 10, 1990, Mercury
> (Universal/Polygram), ASIN: B0000085AD
>
> Contents:
>
>
>   1.. De Groffschmidt
>   2.. Jehann
>   3.. Lütt Anna Susanna
>   4.. Dor weer enmol en lüttje Buurdeern
>   5.. Dat du mien Leefsten büst
>   6.. Lustig reed he
>   7.. He sä mi so vel
>   8.. De Moel
>   9.. Keen Graff is so breet
>   10.. Lütt Matten
>   11.. De junge Wetfru
>   12.. Hartleed
>   13.. Trina (Trina, komm mal voer de Doer)
>   14.. Dat Hus inne Masch (Dar buten inne Masch)
>
> At Amazon (though this is not a commercial endorsement):
> Canada:
>
http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000085AD/qid=1090508088/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/701-6425516-9536329
> (CAN$23.99, but also offered at as low as CAN$18.42 -- I bought it in
Canada
> about 7 years ago, and it was under CAN$15 then.)
> France:
>
http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000085AD/qid=1090508230/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/402-5479704-1184910
> (EUR 10.35)
> Germany:
>
http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000085AD/qid=1090508138/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i4_xgl/302-9564695-3284860
> (reduced to EUR 6.66 -- scroll down to hear a snippet of each song)
> Japan: Not in stock
> UK: Not in stock
> USA:
>
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000085AD/qid=1090508048/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-8851052-4041512?v=glance&s=music
> (US$18.99)

Actually, the version the CD that I own is a double CD called.
Hannes Wader - Der Volkssänger
       EAN 0731453854321
       Label Mercury (Universal)
       Format Doppel CD
       Veröffentlichung 01.1999

17.99 Euro at Amazon.de

The first CD has only Low Saxon songs. The second CD has lots of High German
songs and
one funny Low Saxon song called Bollmann which is a little indecent.
I'll just give you the lyrics of this traditional.

Bollmann
Ganz egal, ganz egal
Bollmann kreich sine Frubben mol dahl.

Bollmann kreich sine Frubben an'ne Tein!
Ja, mein Gott Gustaf, wat is denn dütt?
Tein? - Tündel mein!
Ganz egal, ganz egal -
Bollmann kreich sine Frubben mol dahl.

Bollmann kreich sine Frubben an'nen Plattfaut!
Ja, mein Gott Gustaf, wat is denn dütt?
Plattfaut, Tein - Tündel mein!
Ganz egal, ganz egal -
Bollmann kreich sine Frubben mol dahl.

Bollmann kreich sine Frubben an'ne Hackebacke!
Ja, mein Gott Gustaf, wat is denn dütt?
Hackebacke, Plattfaut, Tein - Tündel mein!
Ganz egal, ganz egal -
Bollmann kreich sine Frubben mol dahl.

Bollmann kreich sine Frubben an' Dünnbeen!
Ja, mein Gott Gustaf, wat is denn dütt?
Dünnbeen, Hackebacke, Plattfaut, Tein - Tündel mein!
Ganz egal, ganz egal -
Bollmann kreich sine Frubben mol dahl.

Bollmann kreich sine Frubben an' Kneebeen!
Ja, mein Gott Gustaf, wat is denn dütt?
Kneebeen, Dünnbeen, Hackebacke, Plattfaut, Tein - Tündel mein!
Ganz egal, ganz egal -
Bollmann kreich sine Frubben mol dahl.

Bollmann kreich sine Frubben an' Dickbeen!
Ja, mein Gott Gustaf, wat is denn dütt?
Dickbeen, Kneebeen, Dünnbeen, Hackebacke, Plattfaut, Tein - Tündel mein!
Ganz egal, ganz egal -
Bollmann kreich sine Frubben mol dahl.

Bollmann kreich sine Frubben an'n Äs!
Ja, mein Gott Gustaf, wat is denn dütt?
Äs, Dickbeen, Kneebeen, Dünnbeen, Hackebacke, Plattfaut, Tein - Tündel mein!
Ganz egal, ganz egal -
Bollmann kreich sine Frubben mol dahl.

Bollmann kreich sine Frubben an'n Rüch!
Ja, mein Gott Gustaf, wat is denn dütt?
Rüch, Äs, Dickbeen, Kneebeen, Dünnbeen, Hackebacke, Plattfaut, Tein - Tündel
mein!
Ganz egal, ganz egal -
Bollmann kreich sine Frubben mol dahl.

Bollmann kreich sine Frubben an'ne Möppkens!
Ja, mein Gott Gustaf, wat is denn dütt?
Möppkens, Rüch, Äs, Dickbeen, Kneebeen, Dünnbeen, Hackebacke, Plattfaut,
Tein - Tündel mein!
Ganz egal, ganz egal -
Bollmann kreich sine Frubben mol dahl.

Bollmann kreich sine Frubben an' "Pssst"!
Ja, mein Gott Gustaf, wat is denn dütt?
"Pssst", (Möppkens), Rüch, Äs, Dickbeen, Kneebeen, Dünnbeen, Hackebacke,
Plattfaut, Tein - Tündel mein!
Ganz egal, ganz egal -
Bollmann kreich sine Frubben mol dahl.

frubben --> wife
möppkens --> breasts
rüch --> back
äs --> behind
dickbeen --> upper leg
kneebeen --> knee
dünnbeen --> lower leg
hackebacke --> heel
plattfaut --> foot
tein --> toe

Vüel Spass!

Jan Strunk
strunk at linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de

P.S.: Wääd ek nu van de list smieten, vanwiegen düssen twievelhaften Kraam?

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 23 00:07:00 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:07:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.22 (12) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.170700.0700.>

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From: Gustaaf van Moorsel <gvanmoor at aoc.nrao.edu>
Subject: Etymology

My brother, visiting me from the Netherlands, brought with him
a welcome supply of stroopwafels, some of which I distributed
here among friends who I know appreciate this delicacy.  One
of them replied with "thanks for the siroopwafels", using the
word "siroop" rather than "stroop".  And yes, on the package
it clearly does say "siroopwafels" > syrup waffles, although I
don't think anybody uses that word in actual speech.

So, what is the etymology of 'stroop'?  Is it somehow derived
from 'siroop', and if so, how does an 'i' become a 't'?  Or
does it a have derivation of its own?  Do other lowland
languages have cognates of 'stroop' (= cane sugar syrup)?

Gustaaf

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Etymology

Beste Troy,

> Standard Dutch has "spin" for "spider", but "spinnekop" is
> fairly widely used I believe, at least in the north of
> Flanders (the Kempen). Is it used elsewhere in Flanders
> and/or the Netherlands?

All the possible information re "spin" can be found at
http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~jvkeymeu/cyberlemmata/nederlands/
Just click on "spin" in the left frame, and then at the bottom you can
choose what you would like to see most. For example a "sprekende kaart",
which is litterally a "talking map", showing all the different words (plus
prononciation in major cities). Etymological information is also provided.
Personally, I always say "spinnekop".

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Etymology


Ron said:

"Slavonic for 'venom': Russian яд _jad_, Polish _jad_, Czech _jed_.
Related or coincidental?"

I suppose it does not necessarily preclude the possibility of a relation,
but is it not possible (likely?) that these Slavonic words derive from a
root meaning 'to eat'? (Old Bulgarian _jadu_ (with breve on the _u_) 'ate'
<*_e:d-_

Semantically it would be just as possible to derive a word for poison from
the verb 'to eat' as it would from the verb 'to give' (as in German
_Giftstoff_). The English word _poison_ too, after all, is another form of
the word _potion_; both derive from the Latin verb _pot(are)_, 'to drink'.

John Duckworth
Preston, UK

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Interesting, John!

But, 'to eat' vs 'venom':
Russian: есть jest' vs яд jad
Polish: jeść vs jad
Czech: jísti vs jed

Sure, they could be related (and, after all, there's really just a handful
of Indo-European roots when it comes down to it), but I'm not convinced at
this point.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 23 00:26:32 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:26:32 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2004.07.22 (13) [E/German]
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.172632.0700.>

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Identity

Hi Ron,

Under "Flämisch", you can read this in Grimm's Wörterbuch:

sie machten ihm nicht blosz durch ihre gegenwart, sondern auch oft durch
flämische gesichter und bittre reden einen verdrieszlichen augenblick. 19,
123; der vorleser summte fort, machte dem advocaten ein flämisch gesicht.
27, 119. auch nd. en vlämsk gesigt maken, bös und verdrieszlich aussehn.
brem. wb. 1, 402. nur in der Schweiz hat sich für flämsch die bedeutung von
fein, zart und weich erhalten, wie sie sich auch zur flämschen, zarten
feinen wolle schickt. STALDER 1, 376.

Under "Flandern":

FLANDERN, Flandria, Flamland. häufig im reim auf andern, treulosigkeit und
flatterhaftigkeit der weiber oder junggesellen auszudrücken:

wann dise bübin ist von Flandern,
sie gibt ein buben umb den andern.
         H. SACHS I, 516d;

wann die bulerin sind von Flandern,
geben ein narren umb den andern.
         V, 215a;

und noch öfter bei diesem dichter, wie auch bei AYRER. ich fragte die zeit
nicht viel nach jungfrauen, gab eine umb die andere, wo ich hinkam, fand ich
eine, und wo ich wegzog, liesz ich eine. derowegen so war ich risch
geritten, sage 'meine herzliebe Hese, dein herz, dein rath, ich bin von
Flandern, gebe eine um die andern'. SCHWEINICHEN 1, 97;

mein feins lieb ist von Flandern,
gibt einen umb den andern,
wer ihr nicht zusprechen kann,
dem schneidt sie bald ein kappen an.
         fl. bl. um 1620;

doch weil mir nun bei andern
das glücke günstig scheint,
so bin ich auch von Flandern.
         WEISE überfl. ged. 4, 10;

ich lasz mich niemals den vorwurf betrüben,
ich wäre von Flandern und striche herum.
         GÜNTHER 258;

weil ich so gewohnt zu wandern
heute hier und morgen dort,
meinen sie ich wär von Flandern,
schicken gleich mich wieder fort.
         GÖTHE 11, 339.

das flattern = flandern leitete von selbst auf den namen Flandern und auf
das unbeständige, nicht blosz in der liebe, sondern überall:

wann wir sind kummen her von Flandern,
geben ein drappen umb den andern.
         H. SACHS I, 517b,

drappe scheint traube, racemus? von uns entnahmen die Slaven böhm. flandra,
poln. fladra, serb. flandra als schelte für ein leichtfertiges weib.
WITTENWEILER im ring 8b, 33. 8d, 25:

sie ritten in enander
recht sam die säw von Flander;
und rumplen unter enander
sam wildeu swein von Flander.
FLANDRER, m. Flandrensis:

der Toscaner lieblichkeit
und der Flandrer witzigkeit.
         WECKHERLIN 376.

Greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Identity

Great stuff, Luc.  Thanks!

I hate to say this, but for the sake of knowledge I will share that an old
secondary meaning (now apparently blissfully obsolete in most dialects) of
Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _Vlaam_ (<Flaam> 'Fleming') is 'boorish, coarse
person', in some contexts also 'slovenly person' or 'person given to revelry
and other manner of unwholesome conduct' (my choice of words) ...  Oops!  I
wonder if this old (and apparently happily retired) prejudice has anything
to do with Protestant-based prejudices against Roman Catholics (and their
supposedly decadent, i.e. un-Purist, ways, not to mention the company of
Spaniards and other untrustworthy Southlanders they chose to keep  ;-) ).

Our esteemed Flemish friends have good company: an older (but perhaps only
semi-retired) LS and Missingsch word for 'rowdie', 'hooligan' or any type of
sociopathic (young) male is _Bryt_ (<Bri(e)t> [bri:t]) ...  ;-)

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 23 14:36:20 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:36:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.23 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUL.2004.073620.0700.>

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From: Thomas <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: IDIOMATICA Lowland Scots Lives OK

I recently visited my home town of Edinburgh Scotland for the first time in
33 years and was delighted to find that the local version of Lowland Scots
had made quite a come back. Even 'posh' folks speak it now and a few times
even I had to listen very carefully to determine if it was Scots or
something else being spoken.
Great to see that all the efforts made by English and would be Upper Class
Scots to suppress our native language have come to naught in the end. I
found it was dead easy to latch back into the language stream although my
wife thought it a huge joke that I spoke Scots with an Aussie accent I
didn't even know I had.
A great t-shirt line is the series depicting Lowland Scots words with full
Dictionary explantion. We have His and Hers 'CRABBIT' t-shirts, has to be
one of the world's most descriptive words. Lots of others on offer including
'Steamin' '. Good source is the shop in The Museum of Scotland.
Regards
Tom
Tom Mc Rae PSOC
Brisbane Australia
"The masonnis suld mak housis stark and rude,
To keep the pepill frome the stormes strang,
And he that fals, the craft it gois all wrang."
>>From 15th century Scots Poem 'The Buke of the Chess'

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 23 15:03:09 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:03:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.23 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUL.2004.080309.0700.>

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Idiomatica

Beste Ron,

> Don't you also use the tag _... nê?_ or _... nè?_ where
> English uses tag questions ("..., isn't it?", "..., don't
> you?" etc.), Standard German uses _..., nicht wahr?_
> (dialectal _..., net?_, _..., gell(e)?_, etc.) and French
> uses _..., n'est pas?_?
>
> In Missingsch (i.e., German dialects on Lowlands Saxon
> substrates) and in North German dialects influenced by
> Missingsch, it's _..., nä?_ also, pronounced virtually
> identically with Afrikaans _... nê?_.  Some "ete-petete"
> Hamburgers (those that want to come across as more
> sophisticated than their linguistic roots permit) will say
> _..., näch?_, influenced by German _..., nicht (wahr)?_.  It
> tends to be _..., ne_ in Lowlands Saxon (Low German) also,
> usually pronounced [nE] also.
>
> Examples:
>
> LS:
> Dat 's ja man 'n beten düyr, ne? (That's a bit expensive,
> isn't it?) Vundaag' kümt Vadder trügg, ne, Oma? (Dad will
> come home today, won't he,
> Gramma?)
> Tou dummerhaftig, ne? ((It's) Really stupid, ain't it?)
>
> Hamburg Missingsch:
> Dascha man 'n büschen teua, nä?  (That's a bit expensive,
> isn't it?) Heude kommt Pappa wieda, nä, Oma? (Dad will come
> home today, won't he,
> Gramma?)
> Zu blöde, nä? ((It's) Really stupid, ain't it?)
>
> Does this ring familiar to Afrikaans ears?  How about the
> ears of the Low Franconian areas?
>
> In some contexts it's similar to "..., huh?_ in some English
> dialects, I suppose.

Sure we do. And even though it comes in many varieties, most of them (if not
all) have developed from "niet-waar" I read somewhere.
In Brabantish it will usually sound like "newaa", "ewaa", "waa", "naa" or
plain "è". Western Flemish usually has "wè" here. Would love to know where
English "huh", Canadian "hey" and French "hein" stem from, in this
respect...even though the last one could be off-topic...if so, sorry.

Greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Thanks, Luc.

OK, at this juncture it's about time to let everyone else in on the fact
that _nicht wahr?_, _niet waar_ etc. literally mean "not true?"

> Would love to know where English "huh", Canadian "hey" and French "hein"
stem
> from, in this respect...even though the last one could be off-topic...if
so, sorry.

I may be wrong here, but I've always thought of them as being "glorified
grunts" inviting agreement, a step below "..., right?"

Which takes me (not so elegantly) over to the widely used versatile
Australian expression "struth" (pronounced like "truth" with an "s" in
front, the "s", however, being pronounced as something between "s" and "sh"
by many (at least in Western Australia)).  I have never been able to
understand the full extent of its use, though I have a general idea and used
the expression myself while living in Australia.  (I won't even as much as
*try* using it here in the States, for that would *really* come across as
"alien.")

Some say this expression started off as "(this/it is) God's truth," namely
as a type of oath emphasizing the veracity of one's story.  (Alternatively,
you can say "Fair dinkum," but I feel this expression has begun to fade
away, sounds just too "Ocker" to many.)  You can still say "Struth!" after
telling an incredible-sounding story or if you read doubt or disbelief in
your audience's faces.  The other major use I have observed is emphasizing a
reprimand, for instance, "Stop that, Pete! Struth!", or just "Struth,
Pete!", something like "Really ...!" or "You're impossible!"  You can also
use "Struth!" in the sense of "(Oh,) Please!" or "Give me a break!" to
express disagreement.  I think you can furthermore use "Struth ..." to
placate someone's burst of anger, also in the sense of "Give me a break!" or
"Come one now!"  I'm sure there's more of this, and our friends in and from
Australia can elaborate.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 23 15:38:22 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:38:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.23 (03) [D/E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUL.2004.083822.0700.>

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From: Bouchonlemaitre at aol.com <Bouchonlemaitre at aol.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.22 (12) [E]

Beste Gustaaf,
in het westvlaams zegt men niet "stroop" maar enkel "siroop",wat dichter
staat bij het oorspronkelijke "sirupus" (middeleeuws latijn afkomstig van
het arabisch "charab").
Hoe het komt dat men in het noorden begonnen is met stroop te zeggen, zou ik
ook wel eens willen weten.
Groetjes aan allen,
stephan lemaitre

Dear Gustaaf,
in west flemish, we don't say "stroop" but only "siroop",what is closer to
the original "sirupus" (midieval latin from the arab "charab").
I would like to know too how it comes in the north one began to say stroop.
greetings to all,
stephan lemaitre.

----------

From: Jan Strunk <strunkjan at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.22 (12) [E]

Hello,

> "Slavonic for 'venom': Russian яд _jad_, Polish _jad_, Czech _jed_.
> Related or coincidental?"
>
> I suppose it does not necessarily preclude the possibility of a relation,
> but is it not possible (likely?) that these Slavonic words derive from a
> root meaning 'to eat'? (Old Bulgarian _jadu_ (with breve on the _u_) 'ate'
> <*_e:d-_

Just an uninformed guess but the relation could be parallel to the relation
between German "essen" and "ätzen", i.e. an old causative formation or
something related...

Jan Strunk
strunk at linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de

----------

From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Etymology


Ron, and fellow Lowlanders:

Ron said:

"But, 'to eat' vs 'venom':Russian: есть jest' vs яд jad
Polish: jeść vs jad Czech: jæshy;sti vs jed

Sure, they could be related (and, after all, there's really just a
handful of Indo-European roots when it comes down to it), but I'm not
convinced at this point."

I spent all afternoon searching in vain for my copy of Vasmer's
_Etimologicheskiy Slovar' Russkogo Yazyka_ (Etymological Sictionary of the
Russian Language), but I finally found it on the net. Interstingly enough,
he seems to go down the same avenues that I have.

"Word: яд,

Near etymology: род. п. -а, ядови́тый, укр. яд, также ïд, др.-русск. яд� ,
ѣд�  "яд" (Соболевский, � ФВ 64, 99), ядьно "опухоль", ст.-слав. д�  ἰόν
(Клоц., Супр.), болг. яд(� ́т) "яд, гнев, горе", сербохорв. jа̏д "скорбь,
горе", словен. jа̑d "гнев, яд", др.-чеш. jěd, род. п. jědu "яд", чеш. jed,
слвц. jed, польск. jаd "яд животных и растений", в.-луж. jěd "яд", н.-луж.
jěd.

Further etymology: Стар. этимология считает исходным *ēdu- и сближает это
слово с и.-е. *еd- (см. еда́, ем), ср. лит. ė̃dis "еда, пища", др.-исл. át
ср. р. "кушанье", норв.-датск. ааt "приманка для хищников" (Фальк -- Торп
9). Соответственно этому толкованию здесь представлено эвфемистическое
название яда -- "кушанье"; ср. нем. Gift "яд" от gеbеn "давать", франц.
роisоn "яд" из лат. pōtiōne(m) "питье" (Мi. ЕW 98; Бругман, Grdr. 1, 131;
Брюкнер 196; AfslPh 29, 119; Соболевский, � ФВ 64, 99; Младенов 701;
Мейе--Вайан 83). Другие ученые считают исходным *oid- и сравнивают это слово
с греч. οἶδος "опухоль", οἰδάω "распухаю", д.-в.-н. еiʒ "нарыв" или др.-исл.
eitr ср. р. "яд, гнев", д.-в.-н. еitаr "гной", лтш. idrа "гнилая сердцевина
дерева" (Фик, KZ 21, 5; И. Шмидт, Verw. 41; Педерсен, KZ 38, 312; IF 5, 43;
Траутман, ВSW 2 и сл.; Бецценбергер, ВВ 27, 172; Торп 2). Менее вероятно
толкование слав. jad�  как сложения *ē и *dō, т. е. якобы "то, что дано,
принято" (Коржинек, LF 57, 8 и сл.; 61, 53; ZfslPh 13, 416). Следует
считаться с возможностью, что и.-е. *ēdu и *oid- совпали в слав.; см.
Бернекер I, 272. См. также ядь."
I hope the above shows up in unicode! Here is a slightly abbridged
translation:

"яд _jad_: Ukrainian яд, _jad_,also ïд, _jid_, Old Russian яд�  _jad� , ѣд�
'poison' , ядьно _jad'no_, 'tumour' ; OSlavonic [the OSlav. Cyrillic
characters don't show properly on my screen, but I presume the form is:)
iad�  (corresponding to Greek ἰόν _ion_, from the Codex Suprasiliensis);
Bulgarian яд(� ́т) _jad(@t)_ , 'poison,' 'wrath', 'grief '; Serbo-Croat jа̏д
_jа̏d_, 'sorrow', 'grief' ; Slovenian _jа̑d_, 'anger', 'poison' ; Old Czech
_jěd_ (genitive case _jědu_ ) 'poison', Czech _jed_ ; Slovak _jed_, Polish
_jad_, 'poison of plants and animals'. Upper Lusatian (USorbian) / Lower
Lusatian (LSorbian) _jěd _, 'poison'.

Further Etymology. The older etymology holds that the root is _*ēdu-_, and
relates this word to the Indo-European _*еd-_ (see еда́, ем ); cf.
Lithuanian  _ė̃dis_, 'food'; OLd Icelandic _át_, (neut.) 'food, meal' ;
Dano-Norwegian _aat_, 'bait for predators'. In accordance with this I
interpret here the euphemistic name яда -- , _jada-_, 'food, meal'; cf.
German _gift_, 'poison' from _geben_, 'to give'; French _poison_, 'poison',
from Latin _pōtiōne(m)_, 'drinking, drink'. "

THE NEXT LINES ARE PERTINENT TO OUR ORIGINAL DISCUSSION!

"Other scholars include the root _*oid-_, and compare this word to the Greek
οἶδος _oidos_, 'swelling', 'tumour', οἰδάω _oidao:_, 'I swell up'; Old High
German _еiʒ_, 'abscess', or Old Icelandic _eitr_ (neut.), 'poison', 'anger',
Old High German _eitar_ , 'poison', Latvian _idra- , 'the rotten core of a
tree'.

Less believable is the suggestion that Slavonic _ jad� _ is a combination of
_*ē_ and _*dō_, i.e. as if to say, 'that which is usually given'. See also
ядь."

If you look up ядь, _jad'_, the Russian word for 'food', 'meal', you will
find the Russian plural noun о́б� еди, _о́b-jedi_, 'remains of food for
cattle'; [I would also add the very common Russian word обед, _obed_,
'dinner' ] Old Russian ɪадь, _iad'_, 'food'; Old Slavonic (Codex
Suprasiliensis) _iad'_ 'food' : Old Prussian _ īdis_, 'food', Lithuanian
_ė̃dis_, 'food'.

The problem you have when looking at the infinitive forms in the modern
Slavonic languages is solved when you see that the root for 'eating/ food'
seems to be something like _*jed/jad_.

Russian eм, _jem_, 'I eat' < Infinitive есть _jest'_ ; Ukrainian ïм,
ḯсти, _jim_, _jisty_ ; Byelorussian ем, есць, _jem_, _jets'_ ; Old
Slavonic _iem'_, _iest'_ ; Bulgarian ям,, _jam_ ; Serbocroat jе̑м, jе̏сти,
_jе̑m_, jе̏sti_ ; Slovenian _jė́m_, _jė́sti_ ; Czech _jím_, _jísti_ ;
Polisg _jem_, _jeść_ ; Upper and Lower Lusatian (Sorbian) _jěm_,
_jěsć_.

When you look at the further etymology of these forms, however, you will see
that we are dealing with two roots (I suspect the one in -d to be a kind of
perfect or perfective root), thus: Proto-Slavonic _*ědmь_, 'I eat',
Infinitive _*ěsti ; Lithuanian _ė́du_, _ė́mi_, _ė́dmi_ 1, _ė́d?iau_,
_ė́sti_, 'to eat' (of livestock) ; Latvian _ę̄du_, _e^st- ; Old Prussian
_īst_, 'to eat' ; Sanskrit _ádmi_, _átti_ ; Armenian _utem_, 'I eat' (from
Indo-European _*ōd-_); Greek ἔδω,_edo:_, ἔσθίω, _esthio:_,ἔσθω, _estho:_
;Latin _edō_, _ēdī_ ; Gothic _itan_ , past tense _at_ ; Old High German
_еʒʒan_, 'to eat' .

John Duckworth

Preston, UK

----------

From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Etymology


Greetings Lowlanders!

Looking into the possible connection of words for 'poison', 'venom' and
words for 'food' and 'to eat' got me thinking. First I thought of a possible
connection between the Indo-European words 'to eat', etc., and the Turkic
words _ot_, _od_, meaning 'herb', 'grass', and so on. Though this lies well
within Ron's field it is nevertheless a little off subject for this list.
Then I started to think about the English word _oat(s)_. I don't seem to be
able to think of any etymologies for this word outside the Anglo-Saxon area.
Old English, if my memory serves me right, used the form _a:t_, but does
anyone know of any cognates in the other Lowlands languages or beyond?
Surely Frisian at least must use a similar word?

John Duckworth
Preston, UK

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Thanks, John.

As for "oats," the Oxford Dictionary gives:

<quote>
[Cognate with West Frisian _oat_, Dutch _oot_, Dutch regional (West Flemish)
_ate_, _ote_, (Zeeland) _ōōt_, _ōōte_, all in sense 'wild oat' (cf. sense
3); further etymology uncertain: perh. < the same Indo-European base as
ancient Greek οἱδεῖν]
</quote>

I have to admit that I, too, have thought of Altaic as a possible origin,
namely Turkic *_ot_ (cf. Mongolic *_(h)otul_ and Tungusic *_okta_) 'herb',
'grass', as a possible origin.  Perhaps it should not be discounted out of
hand, considering that many plants reached Europe from Central Asia.  In
fact, oats (_Gramineae. Avena_ sp) are believed to be of Asian origin.  This
certainly applies to ordinary oat (_Avena sativa_) and large naked oat
(_Avena nuda_), perhaps among the oldest surviving types.  Though kernels
have been found at ancient Egyptian sites and at Bronze Age sites in
Switzerland, oats as a major crop plant is believed to have reached Europe
from Asia Minor, thus from what is now Turkey, which already before Turkish
power had close ties with Central Asia.  It is in Asia Minor that oats are
found in their greatest variety.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 23 15:39:56 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:39:56 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.23 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUL.2004.083956.0700.>

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.23 (01) [E]

Tom wrote:

> I recently visited my home town of Edinburgh Scotland for the first time
in
> 33 years and was delighted to find that the local version of Lowland Scots
> had made quite a come back.

Maybe that's due to the recent publication of "The Wee Fre Men" by Terry
Pratchett, which I am currently reading. There's a tribe of small blue
tattooed, red-haired, kilt-wearing fairy-like belligerent creatures, called
"Pictsies", and they speak Scots all the way... (Ron, I'm not sure I want to
hear your comment this time!).

It's hilarious - big recommendation!

Gabriele Kahn

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 23 18:58:37 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:58:37 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Levity" 2004.07.23 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUL.2004.115837.0700.>

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From: Ben J. Bloomgren <godsquad at cox.net>
Subject: The lunacy of English

This is a funny piece about the oddities of English. Enjoy!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bloomgren, Kary" <kary.bloomgren at honeywell.com>
To: "'George Gohde'" <thegohd at cox.net>; "Rhodes, Larry"
<larry.rhodes6 at honeywell.com>
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 6:37 AM
Subject: FW: Tang Toungueled

> KARY BLOOMGREN
>
> I don't get my tang tongueled often, but.....
>
> English spoken here ...
>
> If you've learned to speak fluent English, you must be a genius! This
little treatise on the lovely language we share is
> only for the brave.  Peruse at your leisure, English lovers. Reasons why
the English language is so hard to learn:
>
>                    1) The bandage was wound around the wound.
>                    2) The farm was used to produce produce.
>                    3) The dump was so full that it had to refuse more
refuse
>                    4) We must polish the Polish furniture.
>                    5) He could lead if he would get the lead out.
>                    6) The soldier decided to desert his dessert in the
desert.
>                    7) Since there is no time like the present, he thought
it was time to present the present.
>                    8) A bass was painted on the head of the bass drum.
>                    9) When shot at, the dove dove into the bushes.
>                    10) I did not object to the object.
>                    11) The insurance was invalid for the invalid.
>                    12) There was a row among the oarsmen about how to row.
>                    13) They were too close to the door to close it.
>                    14) The buck does funny things when the does are
present.
>                    15) A seamstress and a sewer fell down into a sewer
line.
>                    16) To help with planting, the farmer taught his sow to
sow.
>                    17) The wind was too strong to wind the sail
>                    18) After a number of injections my jaw got number.
>                    19) Upon seeing the tear in the painting I shed a tear.
>                    20) I had to subject the subject to a series of tests.
>                    21) How can I intimate this to my most intimate friend?
>
>                   There is no egg in eggplant nor ham in hamburger;
neither apple nor pine in pineapple.
>                   English muffins weren't invented in England or French
fries in France.
>                   Sweetmeats are candies while sweetbreads, which aren't
sweet, are meat.
>                   Quicksand works slowly, boxing rings are square and a
guinea pig is neither from Guinea nor is it a
> pig.
>                   And why is it that writers write but fingers don't fing,
grocers don't groce and hammers don't ham?
>                   If the plural of tooth is teeth, why isn't the plural of
booth beeth? One goose, 2 geese. So one
> moose, 2 meese?
>                   Doesn't it seem crazy that you can make amends but not
one amend. If you have a bunch of odds and ends
> and get rid of all but one of them, what do you call it? Is it an odd, or
an end?
>                   If teachers taught, why didn't preachers praught?
>                   If a vegetarian eats vegetables, what does a
humanitarian eat? In what language do people recite at a
> play and play at a recital? Ship by truck and send cargo by ship? Have
noses that run and feet that smell?
>                   How can a slim chance and a fat chance be the same,
while a wise man and a wise guy are opposites? You
> have to marvel at the unique lunacy of a language in which your house can
burn up as it burns down, in which you fill in
> a form by filling it out and in which, an alarm goes off by going on.
>                   English was invented by people, not computers, and it
reflects the creativity of the human race,
> which, of course, is not a race at all. That is why, when the stars are
out, they are visible, but when the lights are
> out, they are invisible.
>
>
>                    P.S. - Why doesn't "Buick" rhyme with "quick"?

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 23 19:06:37 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:06:37 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.23 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUL.2004.120637.0700.>

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From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.22 (12) [E]


From: Gustaaf van Moorsel <gvanmoor at aoc.nrao.edu>
Subject: Etymology

My brother, visiting me from the Netherlands, brought with him
a welcome supply of stroopwafels, some of which I distributed
here among friends who I know appreciate this delicacy. One
of them replied with "thanks for the siroopwafels", using the
word "siroop" rather than "stroop". And yes, on the package
it clearly does say "siroopwafels" > syrup waffles, although I
don't think anybody uses that word in actual speech.

So, what is the etymology of 'stroop'? Is it somehow derived
from 'siroop', and if so, how does an 'i' become a 't'? Or
does it a have derivation of its own? Do other lowland
languages have cognates of 'stroop' (= cane sugar syrup)?

Gustaaf

----------
Beste Luc,

Time and again I am astonished to notice (in various publications, including
the website  you mentioned below) that no mention is made of the use of the
word 'spinnenkop' in East-Brabant (particularly in Getelands)  in the sole
meaning of "spiderweb".  In these dialects a spider is called 'spin'.

Kind greetings,

Roger Hondshoven

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Roger:

> In these dialects a spider is called 'spin'.

As in Lowlands Saxon (Low German): _spin_ (<Spinn> [spI.n], cf. German
_Spinne_).  "Cobweb" is _spinnenweb_, _spinnenweeb_,  _spinnenweev'_,
_spinnengeweev'_, etc. (German _Spinnengewebe_).

Groetjes,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 23 21:22:35 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:22:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.23 (07) [D/E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUL.2004.142235.0700.>

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From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: Etymology

Hello all Lowlanders,

In East-Brabant (Getelands) we have a  (perhaps moribund) word: 'strampen'
(practically exclusively used in the plural), meaning "leather leg-guard,
used by army officers (in previous times) and by hunters". Does anyone else
know this word? And does anyone have a clue as to the origin of this word.
Is it related to 'stram' ("stiff, rigid")?

Kind regards,

Roger Hondshoven

----------

From: Gustaaf van Moorsel <gvanmoor at aoc.nrao.edu>
Subject: Etymology

Roger:

Stephan Lemaitre (Bouchonlemaitre at aol.com <Bouchonlemaitre at aol.com>)
schreef:

 >Beste Gustaaf,
 >in het westvlaams zegt men niet "stroop" maar enkel "siroop",wat
 >dichter staat bij het oorspronkelijke "sirupus" (middeleeuws
 >latijn afkomstig van het arabisch "charab").
 >Hoe het komt dat men in het noorden begonnen is met stroop te zeggen,
 >zou ik ook wel eens willen weten.
 >Groetjes aan allen,
 >stephan lemaitre

In het Noord-nederlands bestaat 'siroop' ook nog steeds,
maar is daar iets was uitgeschonken kan worden en dan
vaak aangelengd met water, zoals 'limonadesiroop' of
'hoestsiroop'.

'Stroop' is veel moeilijker te schenken (vandaar het af-
geleide woord 'stroperig' -> 'viscous'), bijvoorbeeld
'appelstroop'.  Zonder voorvoegsel is 'stroop' hetzelfde
als rietsuikerstroop, en wordt gebruikt in klassieke
Nederlandse gerechten als pannekoeken en karnemelkse pap.
Er is nu zelfs een dunnere variant die wel makkelijk uit-
schenkt, en dan ook 'schenkstroop' heet'.

Gustaaf

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 23 21:32:40 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:32:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.23 (08) [E/N]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUL.2004.143240.0700.>

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From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: "Language use" (N/E)

Tom (we'd say Term),

Check oot thi Northumbrian/Geordie t-shorts, wi' thi
wards 'canny' ind 'alreet', which wor 'aal thi gan' ih
yeor agan.

Check out the Northumbrian/Geordie t-shirts with the
words 'canny' and 'alreet', which were 'all the go' a
year back.

Keep ahaad,

Glenn

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language use

Glenn:

> Check oot thi Northumbrian/Geordie t-shorts, wi' thi
> wards 'canny' ind 'alreet', which wor 'aal thi gan' ih
> yeor agan.

Ind thi meanin o thi wards, Glenn?  "Great" ind "All right"?

> Check out the Northumbrian/Geordie t-shirts with the
> words 'canny' and 'alreet', which were 'all the go' a
> year back.

And the meaning of the words, Glenn?  "Great" and "All right"?

Keep ahaad!
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 23 21:39:32 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:39:32 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Levity" 2004.07.23 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUL.2004.143932.0700.>

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From: sam s claire <gamlhs at juno.com>
Subject: LL-L "Levity" 2004.07.23 (05) [E]

Ben: Is it not odd that we do not make a "mental double take" when we
make these utterances daily?  Language is not logical, but it works.  Sam

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Levity

Sam,

Although I don't as a rule endorse mass mailings, I have to differ with what
you say above.  Language itself is pretty darn logical and regular.  It tend
to be our (usually set-in-the-way) methods of rendering language graphically
that leave much to be desired in the logics and regularity departments.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 23 22:23:55 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:23:55 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2004.07.23 (10) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUL.2004.152355.0700.>

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From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Identity

Nice one Ron - on the Northumbrian definition. Is that
quote about Northumbrian's having a 'shibboleth of the
tongue' or something because no one can understand the
language? I have a 1930s US dictionary which says:

'Northumbrian - of or pertaining to the ancient
Anglian Kingdom of Northumbria...a native or
inhabitant of the ancient kingdom of Northumbria (or
modern county of Northumberland). The Anglo-Saxon
dialect spoken in ancient Northumbria (and modern
county).'

Tek id easy,
Glenn

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Identity

Thanks, Glenn.

I particularly like this one:

> "Þe Flemmynges þat woneþ in þe weste side of Wales haueþ ileft her
> straunge speche and spekeþ Saxonliche inow." [1387]

If I understand it correctly, it's "The Flemings that live in Western Wales
have abandoned their foreign speech and speak Saxon (= English) now."

This seems to tally nicely with reports that Flemings first settled in Wales
and later moved to Scotland, hence the surnames Fleming, Welsh and Walsh
given to Scots of Flemish background.  It also tells us that they had
adopted English rather than Welsh as their language.  This dates these
events somewhat earlier than I had assumed.

> "But ye Flemmyngis, yf ye be not wrothe, The grete substaunce of youre
> cloothe..ye make hit of oure Englissh wolle." [1450-1500]

> What hath thenne Flaundres, be Flemmynges leffe or lothe, But a lytell
> madere and Flemmyshe cloothe? [1450-1500]

If I understand it correctly, it's

"You Flemings, if you do not mind, most of your cloth (clothes?) you make of
English wool."

"What then does Flanders have -- Flemings ... like them or leave them --
than a bit of (madder =) dye and a bit of cloth?"

This sounds to me like there was a bit too much trade competition for our
dear Englishmen, a bit of jealousy about the fine, widely coveted fabrics
and clothes the Flemish Johnnie-come-lately's produced.  The tenor seems to
be, "All right, so they make better duds, but ... ugh!"  Fun!

This one gives a nice bit of info for the time:

> "Frisia [L Frisia, Frigia] is a lond vppon þe clyue of þe west occean, and
> bygynneþ in þe souþ side from þe Ryne, and endeþ at þe see of Denmark."
> [1387]

"Frisia [L Frisia, Frigia] is a land situated at the North Sea shore,
beginning south of the Rhine and ending at the Danish coast."

> "He..lete calle þe toune Berwik vp Twede, and þere þai duellede..þai went
> ouere þe see into Irland and brou3t with ham Wymmen..but þe men couþe
nou3t
> vnderstonde þe langage ne þe speche of þe wymmen, neyþer þe wymmen of þe
> men, and þerefore þai speken to-gederes as scottes [F sootz]." [1400]

"He had the town named Berwick upon Tweed, and there they lived ... They
went across the sea into Ireland and brought with them women ... but the men
could understand neither the language nor the speech of the women, neither
the women of the men, and they therefore communicated in Scottish."

> "Wee in Braban bye, Flaundres and Seland, more of marchaundy..then done
all
> other nacions..The marchaundry of Brabane and Selande Be madre and woade."
> [1450-1500]

"We in Brabant, Flanders and Zeeland buy more merchandise ... than do all
other nations ... The merchandise of Brabant and Zeeland being madder[1] and
woad[2]."

[1] madder: _Rubia tinctorum _, the roots of which yield reddish-purple dye
[2] woad: _Isatis tinctoria_, a plant from which blue dye was made prior to
the use of indigo

I love reading those original texts.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 23 22:47:16 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:47:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.23 (11) [E]
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From: Hugo Zweep <hugo.zweep at valuersillawarra.com.au>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.23 (02) [E]

I notice the word "ete petete" below, describing aspiring Hamburgers.

Can anyone tell me more about that. My mother used to call one of my
daughters a "hitte petitt" meaning she was bright, on the ball but in your
face. That would have come from north east Groningen.

Geuko Zweep

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hoi, Hugo!

We use this _ete petete_ quite a bit.  It denotes the quality of being
fastidious, especially of women.  I wish I knew its origin for sure.  I
suspect it's French, probably containing _petit(e)_ 'small'.  I also suspect
that the name of Flensburg's stereotypical _Petuh-Tanten_ has something to
do with it, those whose name serves in the name _Petutantendeutsch_ (or
_Petuh-Tanten-Deutsch_), a type of Missingsch based on the local,
Jutish-influenced Lowlands Saxon (Low German) dialect.  (This dialect uses
some archaic LS expressions, and, as in Jutish and Danish, it pronounces /s/
consistently as [s], not as [z].)

In my private lingo I describe such women as being "petite about
themselves."  This is based on something a TV show contestant said many
years ago.  He was asked how he liked his women, and he wanted to sound
overly educated but was too creative in the process, so he said he liked his
future bride to be "petite about herself."  I think he meant something like
"take care of herself."  This stuck with me ...  (For those of you who
aren't familiar with it, in English "petite" usually refers to a woman's
small body or clothes size.)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Jul 24 00:20:03 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:20:03 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Levity" 2004.07.23 (12) [E]
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From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Levity" 2004.07.23 (09) [E]

R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> wrote:
 >
>  Language itself is pretty darn logical and regular.  It tend
> to be our (usually set-in-the-way) methods of rendering language
graphically
> that leave much to be desired in the logics and regularity departments.
>
I second that. I for one think it's possible to, sort of, mathematically
describe most, if not all, natural languages. I even think it's possible
to procedure correct computer translations of most or all written texts,
if one ever finds out how to correctly, mathematically, logically
describe a language.

grooten,
Henry

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Jul 24 00:22:46 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:22:46 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.23 (13) [E]
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From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.23


Leve Laaglanders,

Referring to Gustaaf van Moorsel's enticing question regarding blackstrap
molasses and the difference between Dutch/Flemish "siroop" and "stroop",
here a few amateurish thoughts:

Received wisdom has it that the "Strap" in "Blackstrap Molasses" derives
from Dutch "stroop". Inasmuch as this is the original question, we have a
circular situation. Where I grew up (Appalachian Mountains), blackstrap
molasses was the last, very last, juice that could be squeezed out of
sorghum or sugar cane, whichever one was available at the time. It was
indeed thick, dark and viscous.

Dictionaries inform us that Blackstrap is the "...thick, dark residue liquid
food that remains after the last extraction of sugar from cane or sorghum."
My grandfather, who made molasses yearly, told me that because blackstrap
comes from the third and final boiling of cane, and is actually the bottom,
last dregs of the barrel, he thought that the Dutch, in processing cane in
Guyana, Surinam and the Antilles (Leeward Islands) came into frequent
contact with English-speaking colonials who referred to blackstrap as the
"last drop" of the cane. The "last drop" became "laatste drop", then
shortened or elided to "stroop". Thus, Blackstrap should be "Black last
drop", or Black-stroop.

This might explain, as well, why the difference between "siroop" and
"stroop" begins with relative viscosity and dark umber hue.

Does that make everything chiaroscuro?

Beste groete,

Arthur Jones

----------

From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.23 [11]E


Goedenavond Ron, Geuko, un alle:

"Etepetete" is a phrase that brings back ancient music to me. When a callow
youth, I studied at the University of Bonn on a Rotary Fellowship. At a
student party, I heard the phrase "etepetete" and asked what it meant.

The answer was indeed "excessively fastidious". To me, many Rhenish appeared
to be fastidious, although perhaps less so than the average Zuercher.

Another local added that the word should really be "etepletete" to conform
to Boennsch and Koelsch dialects that feature a trusive "l" on occasion,
viz., "Meine Schwester flickt bei den Belgiern". The next person then asks,
"Sie flickt? Ja Schloen!"

Ciao.

Arthur Jones

----------

From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.23 (11) [E]

Hugo Zweep <hugo.zweep at valuersillawarra.com.au> wrote:
>
> I notice the word "ete petete" below, describing aspiring Hamburgers.
>
> Can anyone tell me more about that. My mother used to call one of my
> daughters a "hitte petitt" meaning she was bright, on the ball but in your
> face. That would have come from north east Groningen.
>
The word hittepetit is used in other parts of the Netherlands as well.
As far as I know, most people in the Netherlands will know what a
hittepetit is. In my personal experience it refers to a girl which a
strong personal opinion, albeit a little stuck up. I asked my girlfriend
too, and she says she thinks of a hittepetit as a girl preoccupied with
herself, always busy wearing the right make-up, carrying a handbag, etc.

Henry

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Jul 24 15:08:20 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 08:08:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.24 (01) [E/Walloon]
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUL.2004.080820.0700.>

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: Resources

The file "santi.pdf", linked to in the message below:

---quoted-- Original Message -----
From: "L. Mahin" <lucyin at walon.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 2:41 AM
Subject: [viker] [Fwd: èn ovraedje d' unif e catalan]
> Bondjoû,
> http://www.udl.es/dept/filcat/docs/santi.pdf
> On studiaedje so les ptits lingaedjes d' Urope;
> emey zels li walon bén seur.
> (djel a metou dins les hårdêyes di l' aberteke)
--- end quote ---

basically deals with variants of romance languages, but includes also two
pages on Scots.

Links for Scots referred to in that text:

a little text about Shetlandic:
http://www.geocities.com/jmtait/zet/shetrep.htm

http://www.scots-online.org/airtins/index.htm
gives a long list of other URLs
http://www.scots-online.org/organisations/index.htm
gives quite some adresses

The other URLs, referred to, do not work:
http://www.scots-online.org/grammar/pages/whits.htm
http://www.dickalba.demon.co.uk/songs/texts/scots.htm
http://www.lallans.co.uk/castillian.html
or are reportedly under construction
http://www.lallans.co.uk/

Regards,
Roger

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Jul 24 15:10:40 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 08:10:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Levity" 2004.07.24 (02) [E]
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From: sam s claire <gamlhs at juno.com>
Subject: LL-L "Levity" 2004.07.23 (09) [E]

Ron: Still do not think language (structure) is all that logical.  Our
thoughts we impart are logical (hopefully), whereas the systems we use to
do so are not so regular and rational, etc.  How did we come up with
strong and weak verbs?    Language, however, is whatever works.  Sam

----------

From: Thomas <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Levity" 2004.07.23 (12) [E]

R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> wrote:
 >
>> Language itself is pretty darn logical and regular.  It tend
>> to be our (usually set-in-the-way) methods of rendering language
> graphically
>> that leave much to be desired in the logics and regularity departments.

That's why I advocate Scots Gaelic being written in Cyrillic where the
actual sounds could be pronounced without trauma. Naturally nobody accepts
this sensible move even though I'd learn the language if I knew how the
words were pronounced. :-)
Regards
Tom
Tom Mc Rae PSOC
Brisbane Australia
"The masonnis suld mak housis stark and rude,
To keep the pepill frome the stormes strang,
And he that fals, the craft it gois all wrang."
>>From 15th century Scots Poem 'The Buke of the Chess'

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Jul 24 15:29:16 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 08:29:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.24 (03) [A/E]
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From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Etymology

Good Morning Lowlanders!

Roger Hondshoven said:

"In East-Brabant (Getelands) we have a  (perhaps moribund) word:
'strampen' (practically exclusively used in the plural), meaning "leather
leg-guard,used by army officers (in previous times) and by hunters". Does
anyone else know this word? And does anyone have a clue as to the origin of
this word.Is it related to 'stram' ("stiff, rigid")?"

Is it not likely that this word _strampen_ is a form of the (High) German
word _Strümpfe_, plural of _Strumpf_, the modern meaning of which is
'stocking'. The Low Saxon form is, I believe (correct me here, Ron)
_strump_. The German word has undergone a complicated development, and it
seems that it originally meant a garment covering the entire trunk (STRUMPF)
of the body. Originally the word seems to have been almost identical to
_Stumpf_ (English _stump_). This is an interesting semantic connection,
since the English word _stocking_ must be from _stock_.

There could also perhaps be a connection with Low German _strampen_, in the
sense of 'stamping on the ground' : German _strampfen_, alongside
_stampfen_.

John Duckworth
Preston, UK

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Etymology

Beste liëglanners,

Here in my neck of the woods, we still say "saroop" and not "siroop" or
"stroop". So I looked up what the origin of the word is, and that happens to
be an Arabic word for "drink", namely "šarāb". Spanish has "jarope, xarope"
and so it didn't surprise me at all that the Spanish Netherlands inherited
this word directly from their former occupants, rather than by means of
French or Latin. I can imagine that the initial syllable got stressed less
and less over time, resulting in "seroop", "serope" (Western Flemish). By
the way, this also happened in another Romance loan word like "begozje" (B)
("nasty sod" (E)), which was derived from French "bagage". Finally it wore
down to "s-roop", and that's when some people (the North even had "language
archtitects" in the past!) will have added a _t_ in order to make it more
conform to all the other Dutch words starting with _str_.

Which easily brings me to "strampen", that (Eastern) Brabantish word for
gaiters ("getten" (B) < French "guêtre", perhaps cognate with "wrist" (E)).
They come in more than one flavor Roger, sometimes "strampen", "strompen",
"strumpen" (ablaut)...and yes, they are the same as German "Strümpfe".
"Strumpf" used to be a word for a "tree-stump", but came into use for
clothing, when "Hosen" got split in half in the 16th century. "Hosen" was
the original word for pants covering everything from waist to ankle, but
when the part below the knee got cut off, the upper part retained the old
word, and the lower part was considered like residue, like a stump.

Besides, Roger, J. Van Keymeulen does write in the etymological chapter of
"Spin":

"...Spinnekop kan in een aantal Brabantse dialecten nog altijd zowel het
spinnenweb als de spin zelf benoemen (in Noord-Brabant en in westelijk
Vlaams-Brabant)..." (J. Van Keymeylen)

But he does indeed not analyze the Getelands-situation any further. Let's
keep in mind that dialects in Western Belgium (former County of Flanders)
have always been studied at the university of Ghent (Van Keymeulen among
others), whereas the Eastern part (former Duchy of Brabant) was often taken
care of by the university of Nijmegen.

Wikipedia links ete-petete with "c'était peut-être": Van Dale considers
"hittepetit" a reduplication of French "petite" (like "hottemetoot") ...and
I had to think of "Reet-Petite, the finest girl..." *s*. Seems that a lot of
affection is involved here.

When I read what Prof. Weijnen wrote about "oat", the word still being alive
in many parts of coastal Belgium and the Netherlands (as "oot", "aat",
"aot"), I was quite amazed, because he stated: "If the Dutch word is of
British descent, it could be a Pictish relict". Wow, I thought at first. But
then I discovered that: "They (The Picts) are believed to have arrived in
Scotland from the Continent about 1000 bc and in Ireland from Scotland about
ad200."
So the Picts were apparently once living on the continent. Anybody have any
idea why they left? Celtic expansion (radiating from northeastern France)???
I doubt it, because "aot" for example is in use in the northeastern part of
the Netherlands, and I don't think there has ever been any Celtic influence
over there...or the Continental Picts must have have been a very close-knit
society  that decided to leave collectively because their southern neighbors
were pushed to the edge (litterally). Bit like what happened to the
Continental Celts a thousand years later (under Roman pressure).

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: Liza du Plooy <lizaduplooy at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.22 (07) [E]

Goeienaand almal.

Verskoon my as een van die ander afrikaans-sprekendes al klaar hierdie vraag
beantwoord het.

Troy wrote:
Standard Dutch has "spin" for "spider", but "spinnekop" is fairly widely
used I believe, at least in the north of Flanders (the Kempen). Is it used
elsewhere in Flanders and/or the Netherlands?

A spider is also called "spinnekop" in Afrikaans, and a spiderweb a
"spinnerak". That's all I will say on the subject since spiders give me the
creeps.

Beste groete
Liza du Plooy

----------

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.23 (13) [E]

> Received wisdom has it that the "Strap" in "Blackstrap Molasses" derives
> from Dutch "stroop".

My Dutch ex-husband once got homesick (living in Bavaria) and tried to make
his own stroopwafels. He didn't have the right kind of sirup, so instead he
used a can of black molasses that some American friends had left behind with
us.

It was horrbible - bitter and nasty - we had to throw it all away. So be
warned, everybody!

By the way, it's not only that it's spelled "siroop" and pronounced
"stroop" - it's also officially spelled "-wafelen" and spoken "-wafels"!
Similarly, the written plural for potatoes in Dutch is "aardappelen", while
one says "aardappels". I can't think of any other language where the written
plural is disregarded and replaced by a different form in the spoken
language.

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: Wim <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" stroopwafels recepy2004.07.23 (07) [D/E]

>>From wim verdoold:  wkv at home.nl

Hi,

Here is the recipe for stroopwafels, I found it on a web page.

Stroopwafels:

 Ingredients

waffles (12 pieces): Ingredients syrup:
 - 300g caster sugar
- 450g butter
- 3 eggs
- 3 sp milk
- 600g flour
- cinnamon
- salt  - 600g cane-sugar syrup
- 300g butter

 Preparation
Mix the sugar with the eggs, milk, flower, cinnamon, salt and the butter
sliced in pieces. Make 12 small balls.
Preheat the waffle iron. Squeeze a paste ball in the iron. Bake the
waffle in about 30 seconds.
Cut the waffle in two thin waffles and spread the waffle with the mix of
syrup and butter.
Bon appetite!

 Wim.

----------

From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.23 (13) [E]

In Westflemish we know the word "netebuck"describing a vivid mostly small or
female person, who is allways alert en jealous.
I presume the element "nete" might be related to the "hitte".
"Nete"however is nwon as the egg of a bug.
"Buck" is allmost certainly the male goat (sometimes also denoted as a
sexual very active person in general.....)

Denis Dujardin
Westflanders

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Jul 24 23:43:33 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 16:43:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language structure" 2004.07.24 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUL.2004.164333.0700.>

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: "Levity" [E]

> From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Levity" 2004.07.23 (09) [E]
>
> R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> wrote:
>  >
> >  Language itself is pretty darn logical and regular.  It tend
> > to be our (usually set-in-the-way) methods of rendering language
> graphically
> > that leave much to be desired in the logics and regularity departments.
> >
> I second that. I for one think it's possible to, sort of, mathematically
> describe most, if not all, natural languages. I even think it's possible
> to procedure correct computer translations of most or all written texts,
> if one ever finds out how to correctly, mathematically, logically
> describe a language.

If you listen to people speaking in a native, unschooled language (for
example, s Scots speaker who was taught in English speaking their native
Scots), you'll discover that language is far from regular. I would say that
it's a bit of a circular argument to claim that languages are regular.
Regularised language may be prescribed in schools, they might be written
down in a regularised fashion in books, but that doesn't tell us much about
what languages are really like "in the wild".

Some examples of irregularities in spoken languages are:

    o    cutoff point - a speaker sometimes stops speaking mid-sentence
because they feel the listener has grasped their meaning;

    o    grammatical variation - "untrained" grammar is often tolerant of
variation in inflections, word order &c that would be considered mistakes in
regularised forms of the languages;

    o    semantic reversal - a person often uses vocabulary or grammar that
implies the opposite of what he really means.

    o    noises with semantic intent - "Aha! Eh... weeeeell oooooooh!
d'oh..."

An example of semantic reversal resulting from syntax is in the song "Drink
to me only":

"If I could of Jove's nectar sup,
"I would not change for thine."

Of course, he means "I _would_ change for thine" (unless he wants a
clout!) - but most people get the intended meaning and don't even notice
what was actually said. I often notice this sort of thing in speech in
English, including my own speech - which makes me wonder just how much of it
goes on that I don't notice!

Semantic reversal can be simply a matter of choice of vocabulary, though,
for example, in Scots:

"lairn" might mean "teach" or "learn".
"listen" might mean "listen" or "make a sound";
"herken" might mean "listen carefully" or "whisper";
"dout" might mean "doubt" or "believe";

and so on.

Similarly, you hear people saying in English "You've got your trousers
hanging out" for "You've got your shirt hanging out" &c.

All this reflects the fact that language doesn't work in isolation - there's
always a considerable layer of interpretation involved. This is perhaps just
as true, though in a different way, of written language. Some important
semantic elements such as emphasis, gesture, body language and intonation
are missing from written languages and often the writer depends on schooling
or experience in somehow suggesting these within the confines of linear
text. But it's a well-known principle in creative writing that different
readers will put a different interpretation on your words and there comes a
point where you can't fight this.

The idea of expressing a language mathematically - well OK, as long as your
mathematics is tolerant of irregularities in the structure. But translating
mathematically as a result of a mathematical description of the written
language? No, because language is only part of what goes into making the
meaning of a communication.

All this is even before we get into the importance of metaphor in spoken
language...!

I often think that the current state of descriptive linguistics is too
simplistic, expressing what are actually continuous phenomena as if they
were discrete. For example, linguists seem to use the IPA rather blindly and
will discuss voicing and devoicing but seem little interested in _how much_
voicing is involved. Similarly in grammar, rules such as "have" versus "has"
are prescribed (either one or the other is right in each case) without any
attempt to record the distribution of usage when speakers, often even the
same speaker, vary between "has" and "have" in the same grammatical context.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Jul 25 16:26:18 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:26:18 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Oral tradition" 2004.07.25 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.25.JUL.2004.092618.0700.>

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Oral tradition

Beste liëglanners,

Those of you that are fond of Belgian folkloric tales, may be interested in
this website:

http://www.volksverhalenbank.be/

So far only the Limburgish part is ready, but soon the West-Flemish section
should be operational too.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Jul 25 16:32:46 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:32:46 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.25 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.25.JUL.2004.093246.0700.>

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From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.24 (03) [A/E]

Hi John,

Thank you so much for your excellent suggestion. Stupid of me not to think
of German 'Strumpf'.

Best regards,

Roger Hondshoven

----------

From: Heinrich Becker <heinrich.becker at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.23 (06) [E]

> In Münsterländer Platt we use the word ; Spinnköppe like people do on
> the other side
> of the Dutch border. This includes the webs too: doar hangt Spinnköppe.
> ----------------------------------

      In similar way the word "Stroop" has been used for sugar beet
treacle = Rübenkraut or
      applesyrup = Appelkraut. This expression is unfortunately dieing
 out even in Münsterländer Platt.

> Greetings
> Heinrich Becker

----------

From: Heinrich Becker <heinrich.becker at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.23 (11) [E]

Hi Reinhard,

I'm sorry to correct you. The Flensburg expression "Petuhtante" has
nothing to do with "etepetete".

The expression "Petuhtante" is derived  from  French word "par tout"(
ticket)  = for all. These were the
 ladies on a coffee trip steamer in Flensburg fjord who bought a ticket
for all occasions.
Their language was influenced in the way you discribed.

"Etepetete" is suspucted to be invented in Mecklenburg, used predominantly
in North Germany but spread all over German speaking parts in Europe even in
Kronstadt German ( Sibiu) Romania with the meaning "snobbish ".

Heinrich Becker

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks a lot for clearing that up, Heinrich.

> "Etepetete" is suspucted to be invented in Mecklenburg, used predominantly
> in North Germany but spread all over German speaking parts in Europe even
> in Kronstadt German ( Sibiu) Romania with the meaning "snobbish ".

We don't use it in the sense of "snobbish," though, more in the sense of
"overly fastidious."

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Jul 25 16:34:43 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:34:43 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.25 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.25.JUL.2004.093443.0700.>

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From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language structure" 2004.07.24 (04) [E]

Interesting message, Sandy, and I tend to agree with you.  But one thing you
said (quoted below) threw me:

> From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
> Subject: "Levity" [E]
>
> An example of semantic reversal resulting from syntax is in the song
> "Drink
> to me only":
>
> "If I could of Jove's nectar sup,
> "I would not change for thine."
>
> Of course, he means "I _would_ change for thine" (unless he wants a
> clout!) - but most people get the intended meaning and don't even notice
> what was actually said.

I think what was said here is exactly what was meant. I read it as: if
Jove's nectar were offered to me to drink, I would not take it in exchange
for your nectar (which I already have).

That said, I can think of a few other examples:

> I often notice this sort of thing in speech in
> English, including my own speech - which makes me wonder just how much of
> it
> goes on that I don't notice!
>
> Semantic reversal can be simply a matter of choice of vocabulary, though,
> for example, in Scots:
>
> "lairn" might mean "teach" or "learn".
> "listen" might mean "listen" or "make a sound";
> "herken" might mean "listen carefully" or "whisper";
> "dout" might mean "doubt" or "believe";
>
> and so on.
>
> Similarly, you hear people saying in English "You've got your trousers
> hanging out" for "You've got your shirt hanging out" &c.

I've often thought it odd that we say things like "That will teach you to be
late" when we mean "That will teach you not to be late."

I've also noted that a lot of people say "I could care less" (usually with
stress on "care") when they mean "I couldn't care less".  Even though
everyone knows that it means that the person doesn't care much at all, it
still irks me to hear it the "wrong" way.

Then there's "head over heels" (isn't your head normally over your heels?).

Kevin Caldwell (kcaldwell31 at comcast.net)

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Jul 25 16:35:40 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:35:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language structure" 2004.07.25 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.25.JUL.2004.093540.0700.>

Sorry. This went out under the wrong heading. RFH
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From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language structure" 2004.07.24 (04) [E]

Interesting message, Sandy, and I tend to agree with you.  But one thing you
said (quoted below) threw me:

> From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
> Subject: "Levity" [E]
>
> An example of semantic reversal resulting from syntax is in the song
> "Drink
> to me only":
>
> "If I could of Jove's nectar sup,
> "I would not change for thine."
>
> Of course, he means "I _would_ change for thine" (unless he wants a
> clout!) - but most people get the intended meaning and don't even notice
> what was actually said.

I think what was said here is exactly what was meant. I read it as: if
Jove's nectar were offered to me to drink, I would not take it in exchange
for your nectar (which I already have).

That said, I can think of a few other examples:

> I often notice this sort of thing in speech in
> English, including my own speech - which makes me wonder just how much of
> it
> goes on that I don't notice!
>
> Semantic reversal can be simply a matter of choice of vocabulary, though,
> for example, in Scots:
>
> "lairn" might mean "teach" or "learn".
> "listen" might mean "listen" or "make a sound";
> "herken" might mean "listen carefully" or "whisper";
> "dout" might mean "doubt" or "believe";
>
> and so on.
>
> Similarly, you hear people saying in English "You've got your trousers
> hanging out" for "You've got your shirt hanging out" &c.

I've often thought it odd that we say things like "That will teach you to be
late" when we mean "That will teach you not to be late."

I've also noted that a lot of people say "I could care less" (usually with
stress on "care") when they mean "I couldn't care less".  Even though
everyone knows that it means that the person doesn't care much at all, it
still irks me to hear it the "wrong" way.

Then there's "head over heels" (isn't your head normally over your heels?).

Kevin Caldwell (kcaldwell31 at comcast.net)

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul 26 12:46:47 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:46:47 +0200
Subject: LL-L "Oral tradition" 2004.07.26 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUL.2004.144647.0200.>

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Van: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Datum: Zo, 25 juli, 2004 6:51 pm

Hey Luc, that is a super site!

denis dujardin



Luc wrote:

>Beste liëglanners,
>
>Those of you that are fond of Belgian folkloric tales, may be
>interested in this website:
>
>http://www.volksverhalenbank.be/
>
>So far only the Limburgish part is ready, but soon the West-Flemish
>section should be operational too.
>
>Kind greetings,
>
>Luc Hellinckx

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul 26 12:48:16 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:48:16 +0200
Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2004.07.26 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUL.2004.144816.0200.>

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Van: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Datum: Zo, 25 juli, 2004 3:53 pm

Mark Dreyer asks

> (research student in archaeology, asking questions about how people
> identified themselves as 'Dutch' outside of the Low Countries in the
> 1600s and 1700s)

Is this (above) a serious statement? If so, you are about to be so
snowed under!

and In message <00ef01c46ffc$fcd49b10$1c0d5f80 at dental.washington.edu>,
Lowlands-L <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net> writes
>From: HALLS Haeng-Cho <zzhhalls at student.uq.edu.au>
>Subject:
says
>
>Your research subject caught my eye, Pat. I would be most interested to
> know how that  is faring :)
>
Thank you both for asking.  Yes, I'm serious.  I am working on the use
and meaning of wall anchors (muurankeren), and comparing this building
technique to other ways people identified themselves, or others as being
Dutch.  I'm particularly interested in the use of material culture in
such identification.

I am fairly well on with identifying the occurances of short wall
anchors around the world (and have lots of animated maps, showing how
different forms spread, such as the S-shaped ones which predominate more
in Wallonie and France, and then go across to Canada).  I am about to
start sorting out the comparative material, which includes distinctive
ceramic assemblages, marbles, and distinctive tools.  I'm working both
from archaeologically excavated material and from inventories.

I'm particularly lacking contacts/information in Brazil, Taiwan, Africa
outside South Africa, and the Middle East.

With best wishes,

Pat


--
Pat Reynolds
pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk
   "It might look a bit messy now,
                    but just you come back in 500 years time"
   (T. Pratchett)


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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul 26 12:52:56 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:52:56 +0200
Subject: LL-L "Language structure" 2004.07.26 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUL.2004.145256.0200.>

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Onderwerp: Language structure
Van: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>

>I've often thought it odd that we say things like "That will teach you
> to be late" when we mean "That will teach you not to be late."
>
>I've also noted that a lot of people say "I could care less" (usually
> with stress on "care") when they mean "I couldn't care less".  Even
> though everyone knows that it means that the person doesn't care much
> at all, it still irks me to hear it the "wrong" way.
>
>Then there's "head over heels" (isn't your head normally over your
> heels?).
>
>Kevin Caldwell (kcaldwell31 at comcast.net)
>
>


How about all those 'I don't think' expressions

'I don't think she knows'  rather than 'I think she doesn't know'

we negate the 'thinking' which we are quite obviously doing instead of
the 'knowing'

David Barrow


---------------------


From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: "Language structure" [E]

> From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Language structure" 2004.07.24 (04) [E]
>
> > From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
> > Subject: "Levity" [E]
> >
> > "If I could of Jove's nectar sup,
> > "I would not change for thine."
> >
> I think what was said here is exactly what was meant. I read it as: if
> Jove's nectar were offered to me to drink, I would not take it in
> exchange for your nectar (which I already have).

I see what you mean. Is the problem here really ambiguity? You could
assume that  he has her er... nectar?? or you could assume from the
first line that he's able to sup Jove's and... what a load of rubbish it
is really, isn't it?!!

Of course it does illustrate that you can get away with a lot of
ambiguity in language itself and depend on the reader's/listener's
common sense to interpret it as intended.

> I've often thought it odd that we say things like "That will teach you
> to be late" when we mean "That will teach you not to be late."
>
> I've also noted that a lot of people say "I could care less" (usually
> with stress on "care") when they mean "I couldn't care less".  Even
> though everyone knows that it means that the person doesn't care much
> at all, it still irks me to hear it the "wrong" way.
>
> Then there's "head over heels" (isn't your head normally over your
> heels?).

An interesting phrase in Scots is "It's a maiter" meaning "It's no
matter". According to the SND this is because "It's a maiter" is a
sawn-off version of "It's a matter of no importance".

I think sometimes when we see a writer with a real "ear" for the way
people speak we can really see how illogical language can be. Take David
Rorie's Poem "The Picnic", for example:

Eh!  Sic langwidge!
Onybody hearin' ye 'ull hae a bonny tale to tell
An you a jined member o the Kirk!
Think black burnin' shame o yersel!
Wi your mou fou o sangwidge,
I won'er it disna choke ye,
Ye ill-tongued stirk!
An a' this tirravee
Ower a drappie o bilin' watter on your taes!
Keep me!
Dinna provoke ye?
Did onybody ever hear the like o't a' their livin' days!
Ye hae a guid neck!
Wi twa mile o sand to pit your muckle feet on
What gart ye stick ane o them
In aneth the stroup o the kettle?
An what sorra else did ye expeck?

You an your fit!
They're a perfeck scunner-
Baith the twa o them,
Ay, an haes been ever sin I kent ye.
A daecent wumman canna get moved at her ain chimblay-cheek,
An sma' won'er!
Hoo aften hae I telt ye I couldna get anent ye
An you aye lollopin' thae dagont feet o yours on the fender?
I whiles wish ye haed widden legs,
They wadna be sae tender
An they wad match your heid better-
Ay, wad they, fegs,
An hae saved ye happin' aboot the noo
Like a craw wi a sair inside.
Sit doon, man!  See,
A' the fowk 'ull think ye're fou-
Here's your cuppie o tea!

Oho!  Ye're no gaun to bide?
Ye've haed a' the tea ye're wantin'?
An ye're no seekin' ony mair o my clatter?
Weel, awa an tak a bit paidle til yersel,
Gin ye maun be gallivantin'
Try the watter.
The sea 'ull mibbie cool your temper
An your taes as weel.

But mind ye this o't!
I've taen your meesure,
My bonny man, aince an for a',
An this is the hin'most time
I'm oot for a day's plaesur
Wi you - ay is it!
For I'll stan' nae mair o your jaw!
Eh!  Sic langwidge!
Onybody hearin' ye 'ull hae a bonny tale to tell
An you a jined member o the Kirk!
Think black burnin' shame o yersel!
Wi your mou fou o sangwidge,
I won'er it disna choke ye,
Ye ill-tongued stirk!
An a' this tirravee
Ower a drappie o bilin' watter on your taes!
Keep me!
Dinna provoke ye?
Did onybody ever hear the like o't a' their livin' days!
Ye hae a guid neck!
Wi twa mile o sand to pit your muckle feet on
What gart ye stick ane o them
In aneth the stroup o the kettle?
An what sorra else did ye expeck?

Comments:

Eh!  Sic langwidge!

 - "language" is often used to mean "swearing".

Onybody hearin' ye 'ull hae a bonny tale to tell

 - she means the tale _won't_ be "bonny".

An you a jined member o the Kirk!

 - I wouldn't like to think he was a falling-apart member of the church!

Keep me!

 - just one of those things people say.

Ye hae a guid neck!

 - the word "good" isn't always a compliment.

They're a perfeck scunner-

 - "perfect" used merely as an intensifier.

Ay, wad they, fegs,

 - she means "ay, they wad" but she mimics the syntax of his question.

A' the fowk 'ull think ye're fou-

 - "full", but it means "drunk".

My bonny man

 - again, "bonny" just doesn't mean that the way she uses it.

Of course some of this is irony and it's not unusual for speakers or
writers to say the opposite of what they mean and listeners or readers
are expected to understand the intended meaning anyway.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/


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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul 26 15:18:06 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:18:06 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language structure" 2004.07.26 (01) [E/S]
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUL.2004.081806.0700.>

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From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Language structure" 2004.07.25 (03) [E]

>From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
>Subject: LL-L "Language structure" 2004.07.24 (04) [E]
>
>Interesting message, Sandy, and I tend to agree with you.  But one thing
you
>said (quoted below) threw me:
>
>>From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
>>Subject: "Levity" [E]
>>
>>An example of semantic reversal resulting from syntax is in the song
>>"Drink
>>to me only":
>>
>>"If I could of Jove's nectar sup,
>>"I would not change for thine."
>>
>>Of course, he means "I _would_ change for thine" (unless he wants a
>>clout!) - but most people get the intended meaning and don't even notice
>>what was actually said.
>
>I think what was said here is exactly what was meant. I read it as: if
>Jove's nectar were offered to me to drink, I would not take it in exchange
>for your nectar (which I already have).
>
>That said, I can think of a few other examples:
>
>>I often notice this sort of thing in speech in
>>English, including my own speech - which makes me wonder just how much of
>>it
>>goes on that I don't notice!
>>
>>Semantic reversal can be simply a matter of choice of vocabulary, though,
>>for example, in Scots:
>>
>>"lairn" might mean "teach" or "learn".
>>"listen" might mean "listen" or "make a sound";
>>"herken" might mean "listen carefully" or "whisper";
>>"dout" might mean "doubt" or "believe";
>>
>>and so on.
>>
>>Similarly, you hear people saying in English "You've got your trousers
>>hanging out" for "You've got your shirt hanging out" &c.
>
>I've often thought it odd that we say things like "That will teach you to
be
>late" when we mean "That will teach you not to be late."
>
>I've also noted that a lot of people say "I could care less" (usually with
>stress on "care") when they mean "I couldn't care less".  Even though
>everyone knows that it means that the person doesn't care much at all, it
>still irks me to hear it the "wrong" way.
>
>Then there's "head over heels" (isn't your head normally over your heels?).
>
>Kevin Caldwell (kcaldwell31 at comcast.net)
>
How about all those 'I don't think' expressions

'I don't think she knows'  rather than 'I think she doesn't know'

we negate the 'thinking' which we are quite obviously doing instead of
the 'knowing'

David Barrow

----------

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: "Language structure" [E]

>
> From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Language structure" 2004.07.24 (04) [E]
>
> > From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
> > Subject: "Levity" [E]
> >
> > "If I could of Jove's nectar sup,
> > "I would not change for thine."
> >
> I think what was said here is exactly what was meant. I read it as: if
> Jove's nectar were offered to me to drink, I would not take it in exchange
> for your nectar (which I already have).

I see what you mean. Is the problem here really ambiguity? You could assume
that  he has her er... nectar?? or you could assume from the first line that
he's able to sup Jove's and... what a load of rubbish it is really, isn't
it?!!

Of course it does illustrate that you can get away with a lot of ambiguity
in language itself and depend on the reader's/listener's common sense to
interpret it as intended.

> I've often thought it odd that we say things like "That will teach you to
be
> late" when we mean "That will teach you not to be late."
>
> I've also noted that a lot of people say "I could care less" (usually with
> stress on "care") when they mean "I couldn't care less".  Even though
> everyone knows that it means that the person doesn't care much at all, it
> still irks me to hear it the "wrong" way.
>
> Then there's "head over heels" (isn't your head normally over your
heels?).

An interesting phrase in Scots is "It's a maiter" meaning "It's no matter".
According to the SND this is because "It's a maiter" is a sawn-off version
of "It's a matter of no importance".

I think sometimes when we see a writer with a real "ear" for the way people
speak we can really see how illogical language can be. Take David Rorie's
Poem "The Picnic", for example:

Eh!  Sic langwidge!
Onybody hearin' ye 'ull hae a bonny tale to tell
An you a jined member o the Kirk!
Think black burnin' shame o yersel!
Wi your mou fou o sangwidge,
I won'er it disna choke ye,
Ye ill-tongued stirk!
An a' this tirravee
Ower a drappie o bilin' watter on your taes!
Keep me!
Dinna provoke ye?
Did onybody ever hear the like o't a' their livin' days!
Ye hae a guid neck!
Wi twa mile o sand to pit your muckle feet on
What gart ye stick ane o them
In aneth the stroup o the kettle?
An what sorra else did ye expeck?

You an your fit!
They're a perfeck scunner-
Baith the twa o them,
Ay, an haes been ever sin I kent ye.
A daecent wumman canna get moved at her ain chimblay-cheek,
An sma' won'er!
Hoo aften hae I telt ye I couldna get anent ye
An you aye lollopin' thae dagont feet o yours on the fender?
I whiles wish ye haed widden legs,
They wadna be sae tender
An they wad match your heid better-
Ay, wad they, fegs,
An hae saved ye happin' aboot the noo
Like a craw wi a sair inside.
Sit doon, man!  See,
A' the fowk 'ull think ye're fou-
Here's your cuppie o tea!

Oho!  Ye're no gaun to bide?
Ye've haed a' the tea ye're wantin'?
An ye're no seekin' ony mair o my clatter?
Weel, awa an tak a bit paidle til yersel,
Gin ye maun be gallivantin'
Try the watter.
The sea 'ull mibbie cool your temper
An your taes as weel.

But mind ye this o't!
I've taen your meesure,
My bonny man, aince an for a',
An this is the hin'most time
I'm oot for a day's plaesur
Wi you - ay is it!
For I'll stan' nae mair o your jaw!
Eh!  Sic langwidge!
Onybody hearin' ye 'ull hae a bonny tale to tell
An you a jined member o the Kirk!
Think black burnin' shame o yersel!
Wi your mou fou o sangwidge,
I won'er it disna choke ye,
Ye ill-tongued stirk!
An a' this tirravee
Ower a drappie o bilin' watter on your taes!
Keep me!
Dinna provoke ye?
Did onybody ever hear the like o't a' their livin' days!
Ye hae a guid neck!
Wi twa mile o sand to pit your muckle feet on
What gart ye stick ane o them
In aneth the stroup o the kettle?
An what sorra else did ye expeck?

Comments:

Eh!  Sic langwidge!

 - "language" is often used to mean "swearing".

Onybody hearin' ye 'ull hae a bonny tale to tell

 - she means the tale _won't_ be "bonny".

An you a jined member o the Kirk!

 - I wouldn't like to think he was a falling-apart member of the church!

Keep me!

 - just one of those things people say.

Ye hae a guid neck!

 - the word "good" isn't always a compliment.

They're a perfeck scunner-

 - "perfect" used merely as an intensifier.

Ay, wad they, fegs,

 - she means "ay, they wad" but she mimics the syntax of his question.

A' the fowk 'ull think ye're fou-

 - "full", but it means "drunk".

My bonny man

 - again, "bonny" just doesn't mean that the way she uses it.

Of course some of this is irony and it's not unusual for speakers or writers
to say the opposite of what they mean and listeners or readers are expected
to understand the intended meaning anyway.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul 26 15:21:05 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:21:05 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Architecture" 2004.07.26 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUL.2004.082105.0700.>

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From: HALLS Haeng-Cho <zzhhalls at student.uq.edu.au>
Subject:

fascinating Pat. As soon as I'm at the Uni library, I'm gonna look up "wall
anchors". I've always been interested in Dutch and North Germany's old
building structures, and how they describe them. Especially their
Fachwerkhäuser

----------

From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2004.07.22 (04) [E]

Mark Dreyer asks

> (research student in archaeology, asking questions about how people
> identified themselves as 'Dutch' outside of the Low Countries in the
> 1600s and 1700s)

Is this (above) a serious statement? If so, you are about to be so
snowed under!

and In message <00ef01c46ffc$fcd49b10$1c0d5f80 at dental.washington.edu>,
Lowlands-L <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net> writes
>From: HALLS Haeng-Cho <zzhhalls at student.uq.edu.au>
>Subject:
says
>
>Your research subject caught my eye, Pat. I would be most interested to
know
>how that  is faring :)
>
Thank you both for asking.  Yes, I'm serious.  I am working on the use
and meaning of wall anchors (muurankeren), and comparing this building
technique to other ways people identified themselves, or others as being
Dutch.  I'm particularly interested in the use of material culture in
such identification.

I am fairly well on with identifying the occurances of short wall
anchors around the world (and have lots of animated maps, showing how
different forms spread, such as the S-shaped ones which predominate more
in Wallonie and France, and then go across to Canada).  I am about to
start sorting out the comparative material, which includes distinctive
ceramic assemblages, marbles, and distinctive tools.  I'm working both
from archaeologically excavated material and from inventories.

I'm particularly lacking contacts/information in Brazil, Taiwan, Africa
outside South Africa, and the Middle East.

With best wishes,

Pat

--
Pat Reynolds
pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk
   "It might look a bit messy now,
                    but just you come back in 500 years time"
   (T. Pratchett)

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul 26 15:22:29 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:22:29 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Oral tradtion" 2004.07.26 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUL.2004.082229.0700.>

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From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Oral tradition" 2004.07.25 (01) [E]

Hey Luc, that is a super site!

denis dujardin

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 27 01:35:21 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:35:21 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.26 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUL.2004.183521.0700.>

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From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: language use

Ron,

'Canny' is a word that has a multitude of meanings. It
can mean 'alright', 'good', 'nice', 'easy-going',
'steady-on/take it easy there'. It provides emphasis
when the occasion demands - 'Gan Canny', 'Go easy/look
out for yourself', 'canny bad', 'quite or very bad',
canny good (likewise), 'canny chep/blowk' 'nice chap
or bloke'  etc, etc.

'Aalreet' is 'alright' but it is also employed as a
greeting, so if you pass someone in the street you
know, you'd say: "Aalreet" and they'd say: "Aalreet or
aalreet thare".  In other words it's shorthand for
'How are you?". Some older people often say: "Whet
Cheor", directly translated as 'What Cheer', although
it is more of a statement than a question.

Gan canny,
Glenn

----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.23 (02) [E]

Dear Ron,

Subject: Idiomatica

> Which takes me (not so elegantly) over to the widely used versatile
> Australian expression "struth"

> Some say this expression started off as "(this/it is) God's truth," namely
> as a type of oath emphasizing the veracity of one's story.

On to South African English, they use it pretty well unminced in the old
rural English communities, like around Grahamstown or Settlers, as in,
"God's Truth, Man: Can't you leave a gate closed when you find it closed?"

Yrs,
Mark

----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.23 (02) [E]

Beste Luc en Ron

Subject: Idiomatica

> Re "negation", I would like to add that in 1958 Dr. J. L. Pauwels
published
> a very fine article titled "De expletieve ontkenning nie(t) aan het einde
> van de zin in het Zuidnederlands en het Afrikaans"

Baie dankie hiervoor, Luc. U inset het ongetwyveld kol getref!

> Afrikaners (or is that "Afrikaansers" these days?),

Well, we say (& have fore some time) ' Afrikaan - Afrikane' for an African
or Africans, covering any nation from Nama to Amazig, 'Afrikaner -
Afrikaners' for ourselves, & 'Afrikander - Afrikanders' for a local breed of
draught cattle. The difference between 'Afrikaner' & 'Afrikander' can stir
up quite as much heat here as the difference between 'Scots' & 'Scotch' (I
duck). The word 'Afrikaanses' (Afrikaans ones) would be an appropriate
extrapolation needed on the spur of the moment to differentiate, for
example, in a party, between those who speak Afrikaans & those who do not.

> Don't you also use the tag _... nê?_ or _... nè?_ where English uses tag
> questions ("..., isn't it?", "..., don't you?" etc.)

Yes we do. Thanks for the term 'tag'. I remember hearing a television
interview of an Austrian forester who made it his business to smuggle people
out of Hungary those years ago. He used 'nê' (& I would spell it exactly so)
quite a lot. His dialect was also rather easy to understand, which niggled a
bit, since I had long decided Austrians were High Germans, & I was more
partisan to the Low Germans myself.

Standard German uses
> _..., nicht wahr?_ (dialectal _..., net?_, _..., gell(e)?_, etc.) and
French
> uses _..., n'est pas?_?

I would rather deem the 'nê!' or 'nê?' to be an interpolation asking if the
conversant follows so far - irrespective of whether he agrees. One would use
it freely in a convoluted argument, but with someone with whom you seek
agreement, you interpolate your statements in exactly the same place, in
exactly the same way, with 'nie waar nie?'

Ja; I would read all these interpolations as 'nê'.

> Does this ring familiar to Afrikaans ears?  How about the ears of the Low
> Franconian areas?

But in the places I would use 'huh' in English, I would use 'waaaat?' in
Afrikaans.

> In some contexts it's similar to "..., huh?_ in some English dialects, I
> suppose.

Groete,
Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 27 01:37:45 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:37:45 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Gallica" 2004.07.26 (05) [E/Breton/Cornish]
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUL.2004.183745.0700.>

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From: Dan Prohaska <daniel at ryan-prohaska.com.>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.01 (03) [E/Breton/Cornish]

A Vretoneger wheg,

Lowen of vy ow gweles Bretoneger war agan rol ny. Pur vas yw dhe wodhvos bos
ran anedhans whath y'gan mesk. Wolcum te a vydh!

Mar pya whans dheugh gothfos nampyth adro dhe'n Kernowek, omdaveugh genef
dhewar an rol ma. Myr orth ow thrygva e-bost a ugh!

I'm happy to see a Breton speaker on our list. It's good to know there are
still some of them among us. Your welcome!

Should you want to know something about Cornish contact me off-list. See my
e-mail address above.

Ganso oll ow holon vy,
Dan

-----------

From: Carlos Eduardo Abbud <ceabbud at yahoo.com.br>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.01 (03) [E/Gaelic]

>>Dear Sir,
>>As bretonnant and intersted in celtic cultures, I agree with you about the
>>need of emphazising to parents in order to make them see that a languages
>>is a mankind's heritage and it must be protected.
>>Maybe to force the Mass Media and Internet sites having editions totally
>>in dangered languages was a good path.
>>Sincerally yours
>>professor doctor Carlos Eduardo Le Fur Abbud

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>

>>Digemer mad!
>>...
>>Kenavo! D'ur wech all!

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 27 01:39:50 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:39:50 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2004.07.26 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUL.2004.183950.0700.>

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Oral tradition" 2004.07.22 (01) [E]

Dear Pat,

Subject: Oral tradition

Please keep on writing!

By the way, your postscript below has had only one other response so far, so
let me jump in again.

Roundabout before Tacitus the word 'Diet' applied variously to the
Community, the Law of the Community, or the Council in Law of the Community,
& occasionally, the Leader of the Community. We still get the word 'Diet' in
German: As in; 'The Diet of Worms.' As a kid I loved that. The English -
now, the English: They applied the word 'Dutch' to all related peoples of
Germanic origin, which was essentially true, & most useful to the English as
they were mostly the same & moreover, outsiders. However,  this was not how
they 'identified' themselves. The Fleming & the Afrikaner would at need
'identify themselves' as 'Diets' & the German as 'Deutsch', but really, the
more local appellations were more useful in their own communities, and until
for example Bismarck, more favoured; such as Saxon, Nederlander, Afrikaner,
Lexebergesch, Fries, etc.

> (research student in archaeology, asking questions about how people
> identified themselves as 'Dutch' outside of the Low Countries in the
> 1600s and 1700s)

Yrs,
Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 27 01:41:03 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:41:03 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Architecture" 2004.07.26 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUL.2004.184103.0700.>

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2004.07.26 (02) [E]

Dear Pat,

Subject: Identity.

> > (research student in archaeology, asking questions about how people
> > identified themselves as 'Dutch' outside of the Low Countries in the
> > 1600s and 1700s)

> Is this (above) a serious statement? If so, you are about to be so
> snowed under!

> Thank you both for asking.  Yes, I'm serious.  I am working on the use
> and meaning of wall anchors (muurankeren), and comparing this building
> technique to other ways people identified themselves, or others as being
> Dutch.  I'm particularly interested in the use of material culture in
> such identification.

I humbly apologise! I thought this was a strictly linguistic matter, ratther
than, ah, venacular architecture. Mind you, I should have thought the wall
anchor was too idiosyncratic a device with which to follow cultural
diffusion & differentiation.
On this same subject, as I page through a guide-book (to the 'Nederlands
Openluchtmuseum'), I spot pictures showing wall-anchors that are 'I' shaped,
'Y' shaped, shaped to depict the date of building, 'I', '6', 'I', '7', but
mostly just vertical 'I' shaped.
Sorry, you got me interested. I should rather have followed other venacular
architectural trends, like the use of brick (very telling - there is no
stone in the Netherlands) & the use of gables, as opposed to overhanging
eaves. An English bricklayer's reference to the 'Flemish bond' tells you
pretty unequivocally where it came from, as well as approximately when
(English these days are more likely to use 'Belgian' as an appellation these
days, than 'Fleminsh' for example.
Sorry - your subject - 'bye.

Yrs,
Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 27 01:43:57 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:43:57 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.26 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUL.2004.184357.0700.>

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From: Daniel Prohaska <daniel at ryan-prohaska.com>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.09 (05) [E]

Reinhard/Ron wrote:

>>Folks,
>>Does any of you have the words of the old (somewhat gruesome) Frisian
>>ballad
>>_A redder träd a bai un a daans_ (or was it _A redder träd un a daans met
>>a baai_?) and can share it with me/us?
>>I learned some of the verses in my teen years and have forgotten them
>>almost totally.  I imagine this would be interesting material for many of
>>us. Any annotation or translation would be appreciated also.
>>Regards and thanks,

Reinhard,
Have you been able to track the song down yet. I'm sorry I can't help you
there, but I would be interested in it as well,
All the best,
Dan

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Literature

Thanks, Dan.

I've heard nothing so far, and on the web there is only mention of the song
(variously spelled) in repertoirs.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 27 02:05:38 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:05:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.26 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUL.2004.190538.0700.>

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.23 (03) [D/E]

Dear John & Ron,

Subject: Idiomatica

[Cognate with West Frisian _oat_, Dutch _oot_, Dutch regional (West Flemish)
> _ate_, _ote_, (Zeeland) _ōōt_, _ōōte_, all in sense 'wild oat' (cf. sense
> 3); further etymology uncertain: perh. < the same Indo-European base as
> ancient Greek οἱδεῖν]
> </quote>

Thanks, but then why do we in Afrikaans call it 'hawer', & where does
'haver' come from?

Yrs,
Mark

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Mark,

The word group you are asking about is predominant in the Continental
Lowlands languages; e.g., also Dutch _haver_, Westerlauwer Frisan _hjouwer_
and Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _haver_ ~ _haber_, also German (_habero_ >
_habere_ >) _Hafer_, Yiddish האָבער_hober_, Danish _havre_, Norwegian
_havre_, Swedish _havre_, Icelandic _hafra_.  The German form is suspected
of being a Lowlands Saxon loan, having replaced _Haber_, which is still
found in non-standard dialects as also in Yiddish (see above).

The etymology is apparently obscure.  It is suspected to be derived from the
word for "goat" (Germanic *_haƀra_, cf. Latin _caper_ < Indo-European
*_kapro-s_), thus used to be considered *"goat's corn," or *"buck wheat"
(!).

Groete,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 27 14:29:05 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 07:29:05 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.27 (01) [D]
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUL.2004.072905.0700.>

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From: Frank Verhoft <frank.verhoft at skynet.be>
Subject: Etymology

Hi all,

In "Hondsdraf. Waar komen onze woorden vandaan?" by Nicoline van der Sijs
(Sdu, 2004), a brief discussion on "siroop"/"stroop" can be found (p.65).

"Tussen s en r werd een t ingelast, vergelijk het dialectwoord astrant
'vrijpostig' (van het Frans assurant), kastrol naast casserole, en stroop
naast siroop.
In deze gevallen is telkens eerst de onbeklemtoonde klinker tussen s en r in
de uitspraak verdwenen (dus [asrant], [kasrol] en [sroop], waarna t werd
toegevoegd."

Groetjes,

Frank

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 27 21:36:33 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:36:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Oral tradition" 2004.07.27 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUL.2004.143633.0700.>

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=======================================================================

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Oral tradition


  Beste Denis,

  >>Hey Luc, that is a super site!

  >>denis dujardin

  Luc wrote:

  >Beste liëglanners,
  >
  >Those of you that are fond of Belgian folkloric tales, may be
  >interested in this website:
  >
  >http://www.volksverhalenbank.be/
  >
  >So far only the Limburgish part is ready, but soon the West-Flemish
  >section should be operational too.
  >
  >Kind greetings,
  >
  >Luc Hellinckx

  Stefaan Top is the guy who should be thanked Denis *s*. In my opinion, his
work can be compared to what the brothers Grimm achieved in Germany in the
19th century.

  Kind greetings,

  Luc Hellinckx

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 27 21:46:42 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:46:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.27 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUL.2004.144642.0700.>

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From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: etymology

Hi Lowlanders,

In dutch there is this expression : "geen sant in eigen land", meaning
"no one is a prophet in his own country".
The word "sant" is fascinating. I know that in Swedish, "det är sant" ,
means, "it is true".
Can anybody refer me to other words in other Lowland languages that
might contain the same stem or have the same meaning?

Denis Dujardin
West-Flanders

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Denis!

Are you sure this _sant_ is unrelated to "saint" (in which case it would
have undergone a semantic shift -- "someone chosen, with a special gift" >)?

It sure looks like a Romance loan to me, for it would start with _z-_
(before a vowel) if it were Germanic (which some Flemish dialects do have:
_zant_).  Middle Dutch had _sanct_, _sant(e)_, _sent(e)_, _sint(e)_,
_sunte_, _sonte_, mostly used as a prefix before names.  All of it
ultimately goes back to Latin _sanctus_ 'holy', 'sacred'.

Just wondering ...

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 27 22:47:15 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:47:15 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.27 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUL.2004.154715.0700.>

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Etymology

Beste Denis,

Ron is quite right, _sant_ is indeed an older Dutch word for
"saint"...heilige dus.
Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 27 23:26:28 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 16:26:28 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2004.07.27 (05) [A/E]
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUL.2004.162628.0700.>

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From: HALLS Haeng-Cho <zzhhalls at student.uq.edu.au>
Subject:


 Re "negation", I would like to add that in 1958 Dr. J. L. Pauwels
published
> a very fine article titled "De expletieve ontkenning nie(t) aan het einde
> van de zin in het Zuidnederlands en het Afrikaans"

Baie dankie hiervoor, Luc. U inset het ongetwyveld kol getref!

> Afrikaners (or is that "Afrikaansers" these days?),

Well, we say (& have fore some time) ' Afrikaan - Afrikane' for an African
or Africans, covering any nation from Nama to Amazig, 'Afrikaner -
Afrikaners' for ourselves, & 'Afrikander - Afrikanders' for a local breed of
draught cattle. The difference between 'Afrikaner' & 'Afrikander' can stir
up quite as much heat here as the difference between 'Scots' & 'Scotch' (I
duck). The word 'Afrikaanses' (Afrikaans ones) would be an appropriate
extrapolation needed on the spur of the moment to differentiate, for
example, in a party, between those who speak Afrikaans & those who do not.

> Don't you also use the tag _... nê?_ or _... nè?_ where English uses tag
> questions ("..., isn't it?", "..., don't you?" etc.)

Hey! Is that the same Dr. J. L. Pauwels I had for linguistics at Monash Uni
in the mid 90s? Great Lecturer, by the way

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 28 00:09:04 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 17:09:04 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.27 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUL.2004.170904.0700.>

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From: HALLS Haeng-Cho <zzhhalls at student.uq.edu.au>
Subject:


I'm wondering if the word 'sant' might mean Saint as in Santaclaas.
Heiliger, if you wish. That would make sense. No saint in one's own land.
Just a thought. What do you think?

----------

From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.27 (04) [E]

Thanx for the explanation Ron and Luc!
But I keep wondering, where the Swedish "sant" comes from.

Denis Dujardin

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

You're most welcome, Denis.

Swedish _sant_, Norwegian _sant_, Danish _sandt_, etc., are adverbial
derivations (/-t/) of adjectival Swedish _sann_, Norwegian _sann_, Danish
_sand_ 'right', 'correct', 'true', 'factual', etc.; cf. Old Norse _sannr_
'id.', _sanna_ 'to confirm', _sannagetall_ 'to assume as true', _sannleikr_
'truth', _sannligr_ 'probable', 'believable', 'proper', _sannfrōðr_ 'well
informed', _sannsogli_ 'truth in speech', _sannsǫgull_ 'being truthful', and
_sannyrði_ 'truth'.

I cannot help but wonder if these words are related to Latin _sānus_
(/sān-/) 'healthy', 'well', 'right' and its Romance relations, derive from
Indo-European _sānos_ 'whole' = 'as should be."

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 28 00:25:10 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 17:25:10 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.27 (07) [E]
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Folks,


There's a "new" song in my collection of poems and songs by the Lowlands
Saxon (Low German) author Klaus Groth:

http://www.geocities.com/grothwarken/

In the index it is marked as new.  It is "Abendfreden" ("Evening Peace").
It comes with several transliterations and with my English translation, as
well as with my Midi sound rendition (click on "Melody").

I added it because to members of the public wrote to me asking for it.  It's
one of the all-time sentimental favorites.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

Lüüd',



Kiekt maal up mien Sammelsuus' vun Klaus Groth sien Leder un Riemels:
http://www.geocities.com/grothwarken/

Daar findt Ji nu wat Nees: "Abendfreden".

Daar sünd Ümschriften mit bi, ook mien ingelsch Œversetten un de Melodie, de
ik up Midi-Formaat instellt heff (up "Melodie" klicken).

Ik heff dat daarto daan, wieldat mi twee Minschen anschräven un mi daarüm
bäden hebbt.  Dat is een vun de sentimentalen Favoriten.

Grötens,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 28 15:03:06 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:03:06 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (02) [E/Italian]
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.080306.0700.>

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Etymology

Beste Ron,

>Swedish _sant_, Norwegian _sant_, Danish _sandt_, etc., are adverbial
>derivations (/-t/) of adjectival Swedish _sann_, Norwegian _sann_, Danish
>_sand_ 'right', 'correct', 'true', 'factual', etc.; cf. Old Norse _sannr_
>'id.', _sanna_ 'to confirm', _sannagetall_ 'to assume as true', _sannleikr_
>'truth', _sannligr_ 'probable', 'believable', 'proper', _sannfro¯ðr_ 'well
>informed', _sannsogli_ 'truth in speech', _sanns?gull_ 'being truthful',
and
>_sannyrði_ 'truth'.

>I cannot help but wonder if these words are related to Latin _sa¯nus_
>(/sa¯n-/) 'healthy', 'well', 'right' and its Romance relations, derive from
>Indo-European _sa¯nos_ 'whole' = 'as should be."

These Scandinavian words are cognate with English _sooth_, as in
"soothsayer", "for sooth", "soothfast", "in good sooth" and the verb "to
soothe", all having something to do with "truth" (originally) <
Indo-European *sontos, present participle of IE *es "to be", compare Dutch
"zijnde".

The Christian concept of "sin" however did not exist among Germanic people,
so "sin" would be an early church loan from Latin "sons", "sontis" (see
above).

Latin "sanus" is another case I think, as it happened to be known only in
the Umbrian and Venetian regions.
"Saint", past participle of Latin "sancire" (to consecrate, render holy),
which in turn is derived from "sacer" (holy) < IE *sak, to elevate.
Note by the way that in Greek and Indian culture, "sacred" objects
apparently had two "faces", one that inspired  devotion and one that wreaked
havoc:

Sacro è ciò che è degno di adorazione (dalla radice tyeg e dal greco 'sebo',
venero), ma è anche (dalla radice sak) ciò che è terribile, da cui si deve
stare lontani. Così il latino "sacer", ci ricorda il dizionario, significa
insieme sacro e maledetto, venerabile e temuto, benefico e minaccioso.

Patrick C. Ryan links *sak even with Japanese "sake" (wine), in an attempt
to reconstruct a common ancestor of IE and Japanese. But no, not in the
sense of "that wich lifts our spirits" *s*

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.27 (03) [E]

Dear Denis & Ron,

Subject: etymology

> In dutch there is this expression : "geen sant in eigen land", meaning
> "no one is a prophet in his own country".

> Are you sure this _sant_ is unrelated to "saint" (in which case it would
> have undergone a semantic shift -- "someone chosen, with a special gift"
>)?

We say, 'Geen sant in sy eie land.' It is a straight quote from the Bible, &
the English says, 'A prophet is not without honour, except in his own
country.' Jesus was quoting a Jewish expression.

In Afrikaans 'sant' means saint, but it is rarely used. We have a preference
for 'heilige', as we do for all terms & roots of Teutonic origin.
However, the application of the expression is fairly loose. A young man may
be held in great respect, except in his own household, & if he notes this,
someone will quote that at him.
There are many such words in Afrikaans that survive only in 'old saws', like
this. Another is 'ros en ruiter', meaning 'horse & rider', though the ag
Afrikaans for 'horse' is 'perd'

yrs Sincerely,
Mark

----------

From: Peter Snepvangers <snepvangers at optushome.com.au>
Subject: Etymology


Hello Ron and Lowland folks,
I was wondering if you could help me understand about the origins of the
English word "Garden". I have noticed there are at least 3 variations used
by different languages with probably more variants used by these languages
that I am not aware of.
English - Garden
German - Garten
Limburgs 1 - Gaart
Dutch - Tuin
Afrikaans - Tuin
Frisian - Tun
Norwegian - Hage
Danish - Have
Limburgs 2 - Haof
Has the meaning of garden changed throughout history?
Cheers
Peter S
snepvangers at optushome.com.au

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Hi, Pete!

Thanks for the clarification and the private communication.

Strewth!  This topic sure got your juices flowing, didn't it?

Hope you had a good time in Tasmania and didn't freeze too much down there.
Great to have you back!

Ta-ta!
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 28 15:03:55 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:03:55 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.28 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.080355.0700.>

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From: Peter Snepvangers <snepvangers at optushome.com.au>
Subject: Idiomatica


Which takes me (not so elegantly) over to the widely used versatile
Australian expression "struth" (pronounced like "truth" with an "s" in
front, the "s", however, being pronounced as something between "s" and "sh"
by many (at least in Western Australia)).  I have never been able to
understand the full extent of its use, though I have a general idea and used
the expression myself while living in Australia.  (I won't even as much as
*try* using it here in the States, for that would *really* come across as
"alien.")

Some say this expression started off as "(this/it is) God's truth," namely
as a type of oath emphasizing the veracity of one's story.  (Alternatively,
you can say "Fair dinkum," but I feel this expression has begun to fade
away, sounds just too "Ocker" to many.)  You can still say "Struth!" after
telling an incredible-sounding story or if you read doubt or disbelief in
your audience's faces.  The other major use I have observed is emphasizing a
reprimand, for instance, "Stop that, Pete! Struth!", or just "Struth,
Pete!", something like "Really ...!" or "You're impossible!"  You can also
use "Struth!" in the sense of "(Oh,) Please!" or "Give me a break!" to
express disagreement.  I think you can furthermore use "Struth ..." to
placate someone's burst of anger, also in the sense of "Give me a break!" or
"Come one now!"  I'm sure there's more of this, and our friends in and from
Australia can elaborate.
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

Hello Ron,
I have just returned from Tasmania so am a little late reading and replying
to your mail. I have often heard similar explanations for the origin and
meaning of struth (middle english  corruption of "it is truth?"). The
Collins on line dictionary states it is a 19 century alterationI of "God's
truth". Websters online dictionary (Rosetta edition) does not show any info
on struth except to say it is Scottish for a stream; Scottish for ostrich;
Albanian for camel bird (ostrich).

I do not really think this is the correct spelling or meaning of the word as
used in Australia. I have always known and read the word as strewth. I have
not heard it used as a verification but only as an exclamation or
interjection expressing surprise, dismay, amazement. Alternatives are
"crikey", "goodness gracious me", "wow", "gee whiz", "stone the crows". The
word is predominantly used by older Australians but keeps being picked up by
the kids and shows no sign of disappearing yet. Ron your usage "You can
still say "Struth!" after telling an incredible-sounding story or if you
read doubt or disbelief in your audience's faces" is not really used this
way although you could just say It's the truth (I'm not kidding you). I
totally agree with the other usage examples you have shown us. I have a
story in our local newspaper dated July 27th (coincidence??) and I will scan
it as a jpeg file and email it to you seperately.
Strewth!!! that was a long winded reply.
Tot siens
Peter S
snepvangers at optushome.com.au

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Hi, Pete!

Thanks for the clarification and the private communication.

Strewth!  This topic sure got your juices flowing, didn't it?

Hope you had a good time in Tasmania and didn't freeze too much down there.
Great to have you back!

Ta-ta!
Reinhard/Ron


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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 28 15:59:22 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:59:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.085922.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Oops!  I added my "Idiomatica" comment to the "Etymology" issues.  It's too
early in the day to keep it straight apparently.  Sorry.

Peter Snepvangers asked about garden:

> I was wondering if you could help me understand about the origins of the
> English word "Garden". I have noticed there are at least 3 variations used
> by different languages with probably more variants used by these languages
> that I am not aware of.
> English - Garden
> German - Garten
> Limburgs 1 - Gaart
> Dutch - Tuin
> Afrikaans - Tuin
> Frisian - Tun
> Norwegian - Hage
> Danish - Have
> Limburgs 2 - Haof
> Has the meaning of garden changed throughout history?

I think so, Peter.  I think that flower gardens, pleasure gardens etc. are
fairly new concepts in Europe, starting in and around medieval palaces,
monasteries and convents, perhaps in part developed out of need (medicinal
herbs, etc.) and in part inspired by the gardens of the "Orient" (i.e., most
of sub-Siberian Asia) where they had been developed for millenia.  I'm
pretty certain that among ordinary people gardens as we know them now
started out as what we call "kitchen gardens" used for growing herbs and
vegetables.  They were planted just outside a house, namely out in the
"yard," a word apparently related to "garden" and still often used in
American English where Europeans would be more prone toward saying "garden."

The other words for "garden" you listed clearly point toward an origin as
just an enclosure (Continental Lowlandic _tuin_ etc.) and as a paddock or
grazing corral (North Germanic _hage_, _have_), as still in Swedish _haga_;
but note Icelandic _garður_ for both 'yard' and 'garden'.  I assume these
words are related to Continental _haag_ and English "haw," denoting 'grove',
'piece of land with plant growth', etc.

Lowlands Saxon has two words for "garden," depending on the dialect.  In the
extreme west (which includes most of Eastern Friesland in Germany and all
dialects of the Eastern Netherlands) it is _tuun_ (Netherlands spelling
_toen_) [tu:n].  In the other dialects it is _gaarden_ [gQ:3`dn], _gaarn_
[g@:3`n], etc., and in these dialects _tuun_ (<Tun>, <Tuun>) means 'fence'.
Thus, this word (like Dutch _tuin_, Afrikaans _tuin_, W. Frisian _tun_,
etc., also dialectal Scandinavian _tūn_ 'farm-yard', in the sense of
'garden', 'yard', point toward the idea of 'enclosure', as do the English
and Scots cognates "town" and _toon (< Old English _tuun_, _tún_ and Old
Saxon _tūn_, also starting off as "enclosure," "fortified place," thus
cognate with Celtic *_dūn_ "fortified place" = 'fortress', 'camp' > 'town'.

Note also that Scots has _gairden_ for "garden," as well as _yaird_ for both
'yard' and 'garden', also _kailyaird_ for 'kitchen garden' (lit. "cabbage
yard" or "soup yard").

Finally note the following:

Germanic *_gardos_ > Old English _ƽeard_, Old Saxon _gard_, Old German
_gart_, Gothic _gards_, Old Norse _garðr_; cf. Old Northern French _gardin_
(< Latin _gardīnum_ < _gardum_)

The Germanic words clearly point toward enclosure ("safe place") also.  Old
English _ƽeard_ means 'fence', 'dwelling', 'house' and 'region'.  Old Saxon
_gard_ means 'enclosure', '(enclosed) field' and 'dwelling', Middle Dutch
_gaard_ and Old German _gart_ mean 'circle' or 'ring' (thus also
"enclosure").  Hence also Swedish _gård_ and Danish _gard_ (dialectal ~
_gård_) in the sense of 'yard' and 'farm', thus just like Limburgish _haof_,
Lowlands Saxon _hov_ (<Hoff>, <hof> [hOf]) and German _Hof_.

So it seems to me that it all goes back to the semantic base *"enclosure."

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 28 16:42:37 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:42:37 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.28 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.094237.0700.>

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From: Frank Verhoft <frank.verhoft at skynet.be>
Subject: Resources

Hi all

I've got a few questions in connection with two dictionaries:

1.
In Fick's "Wörterbuch der Indogermanischen Sprachen: Dritter Teil:
Wortschatz der Germanischen Spracheinheit" (Revised ed. 1909) some
abbreviatons are used which are not always clear to me. Could somebody help
me out?
- "Cymr. = Cymrisch." [is Welsh meant here?]
- "klruss. =  kleinrussisch" [=? Belarus]

2.
Both abbreviations also appears in Franck's Etymologisch woordenboek der
Nederlansche taal (1912; 1949 revised ed. Van Wijk).
Some other abb. that are unclear to me:
- "bei. = beiersch" and "beierl. = beierlandsch" [what's the difference?]
- "geg. = gegisch" [??]
- "pael. = paelignisch" [=? so-called Pelasgian]

Thanks in advance,

Frank

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Moyen, Frank!

Here's my quarter Euro's worth of help.

> - "Cymr. = Cymrisch." [is Welsh meant here?]

I assume so.

> - "klruss. =  kleinrussisch" [=? Belarus]

No, Ukrainian.
(Belarusian is _Weißrussisch_.)

> - "bei. = beiersch" and "beierl. = beierlandsch" [what's the difference?]

Hmmm ...  _beiersch_ (now _baierisch_) should be 'Bavarian'.  Might he mean
'Baruvarian' (now _bajuwarisch_, more generic, including most dialects of
Austria) by _beierlandsch_?  I found _beierlandsch_ in the _Digitale
Biliotheek voor de Nederlandse letteren_
(http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/ginn001hand01/ginn001hand01_0006.htm), but they
don't say what they mean by it.

> - "geg. = gegisch" [??]
It's Gheg (Albanian _gegërishte_), a dialect group of Albanian (A. _shqipe_,
_arbërishte_, G. _Albanisch_) -- some would say a language -- as distinct
from the groups Tosc (G. _toskisch_, A. _toskërishte_) and Scutari/Skutari
(A. _shkodërishte_, G. _skutarisch_), all counted as Albanian.

> - "pael. = paelignisch" [=? so-called Pelasgian]

Pelignian or Pelasgian, an Italic (thus Romance) variety (or group of
varieties) belonging to the Sabellic group, thus akin to Umbrian and Oscan
(Osco-Umbrian), Sabine, etc., also a relative of Etruscan, Picene, Faliscan,
Messapic, Volscian, etc., and the surviving Latinian (or Latinic) varieties
Latin, Italian, Ligurian, Ladin, Friulian, Rhaetic (> Rhaeto-Romansch),
Venetic (> Venetian, Veneto), Istriot, Istro-Romanian, Arumansh and
Romanian, all of the above used in Italy, Croatia, Switzerland, Greece,
Romania and Moldova.

I hope this helped.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 28 17:31:33 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:31:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.103133.0700.>

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From: Troy Sagrillo <meshwesh at bigfoot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (03) [E]

on 28.07.2004 5.59 PM,  R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>:

> Note also that Scots has _gairden_ for "garden," as well as _yaird_ for
both
> 'yard' and 'garden', also _kailyaird_ for 'kitchen garden' (lit. "cabbage
> yard" or "soup yard").

Scots also has _toun_ & _town_ for "an area of arable land on an estate,
occupied by a number of farmers as co-tenants; a farm with its buildings and
the immediate surrounding area" (Concise Scots Dict.). I vaugely remember in
the novel _Waverley_ by Walter Scott it is used in the sense of "garden", bu
it's been awhile since I read it, so it may have been in the sense of
"farm".

Peter Snepvangers wrote:

> Dutch - Tuin

I regularly hear "hof" in the Antwerpse Kempen, so it may be more generally
Brabants as well.

Cheers,

Troy

----------

From: Patrick or Cynthia Karl <pkarl at grasshoppernet.com>
Subject: Etymology


From: Peter Snepvangers <snepvangers at optushome.com.au>
Subject: Etymology


Hello Ron and Lowland folks,
I was wondering if you could help me understand about the origins of the
English word "Garden". I have noticed there are at least 3 variations used
by different languages with probably more variants used by these languages
that I am not aware of.
English - Garden
German - Garten
Limburgs 1 - Gaart
Dutch - Tuin
Afrikaans - Tuin
Frisian - Tun
Norwegian - Hage
Danish - Have
Limburgs 2 - Haof
Has the meaning of garden changed throughout history?The 3 variations all
have an English counterpart, not necessarily with the exact, but usually a
closely related meaning:  garden, town, hedge.  The OED says that an early
meaning of garden was "enclosed place".  The enclosure could be made either
from a fence or a hedge.  Town is closely related to the Celtic word for
"enclosed place", dunum, and to the German word for "fence", Zaun.  I think
other cognates of garden are Russian grad, gorod, Czech hrad, Latin hortus;
possibly French (and English) court.  (An especially interesting word in
this category is English orchard, originally (i.e., in OE) ort-yeard, where
the ort comes from or is related to Latin hortus, and the 2nd component is
identical with English yard.  So an orchard is a yard-yard.)

Note, too, if I'm not mistaken, the meaning of garden in England is what an
American might call a lawn or a yard (another cognate of garden), while in
the US it's a plot for growing vegetables, herbs, flowers.

I would say that rather than the meaning of garden changing throughout
history different cultures chose different aspects of the enclosure process
and named them with related words.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 28 17:35:56 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:35:56 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.28 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.103556.0700.>

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From: Troy Sagrillo <meshwesh at bigfoot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.28 (04) [E]

on 28.07.2004 6.42 PM, Lowlands-L wrote:

>> - "pael. = paelignisch" [=? so-called Pelasgian]
>
> Pelignian or Pelasgian, an Italic (thus Romance) variety (or group of
> varieties) belonging to the Sabellic group, thus akin to Umbrian and Oscan
> (Osco-Umbrian), Sabine, etc., also a relative of Etruscan, Picene,
Faliscan,
> Messapic, Volscian, etc., and the surviving Latinian (or Latinic)
varieties
> Latin, Italian, Ligurian, Ladin, Friulian, Rhaetic (> Rhaeto-Romansch),
> Venetic (> Venetian, Veneto), Istriot, Istro-Romanian, Arumansh and
> Romanian, all of the above used in Italy, Croatia, Switzerland, Greece,
> Romania and Moldova.

In English at least "Pelasgian" generally refers to the pre-Greek
inhabitants of Greece and Anatolia. The surviving loan-words and place names
that made their way into Classical Greek indicate the language(s) was/were
non-Indo-European (thus excluding Hittite and related Anatolian languages).

See also:

http://www.linguistlist.org/~ask-ling/archive-most-recent/msg10827.html

Cheers,

Troy

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Thanks a lot for the clarification, Troy.

I suppose this is why the author "so-called" (expressing disagreement)
before "Pelasgian," assumedly because the name had come to be used for an
Italic group.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 28 20:48:45 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:48:45 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (07) [D/E]
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.134845.0700.>

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From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (05) [E]

> From: Patrick or Cynthia Karl <pkarl at grasshoppernet.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> From: Peter Snepvangers <snepvangers at optushome.com.au>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Hello Ron and Lowland folks,
> I was wondering if you could help me understand about the origins of the
> English word "Garden". I have noticed there are at least 3 variations used
> by different languages with probably more variants used by these languages
> that I am not aware of.
> English - Garden
> German - Garten
> Limburgs 1 - Gaart
> Dutch - Tuin
> Afrikaans - Tuin
> Frisian - Tun
> Norwegian - Hage
> Danish - Have
> Limburgs 2 - Haof
> Has the meaning of garden changed throughout history?The 3 variations all
> have an English counterpart, not necessarily with the exact, but usually a
> closely related meaning:  garden, town, hedge.  The OED says that an early
> meaning of garden was "enclosed place".  The enclosure could be made
> either
> from a fence or a hedge.  Town is closely related to the Celtic word for
> "enclosed place", dunum, and to the German word for "fence", Zaun.  I
> think
> other cognates of garden are Russian grad, gorod, Czech hrad, Latin
hortus;
> possibly French (and English) court.  (An especially interesting word in
> this category is English orchard, originally (i.e., in OE) ort-yeard,
> where
> the ort comes from or is related to Latin hortus, and the 2nd component is
> identical with English yard.  So an orchard is a yard-yard.)
>
> Note, too, if I'm not mistaken, the meaning of garden in England is what
> an
> American might call a lawn or a yard (another cognate of garden), while in
> the US it's a plot for growing vegetables, herbs, flowers.
>
> I would say that rather than the meaning of garden changing throughout
> history different cultures chose different aspects of the enclosure
> process
> and named them with related words.

If I am not mistaken, English "guard," "ward," and "warden" also come from
the same root as "garden" and "yard."

Kevin Caldwell (kcaldwell31 at comcast.net)

----------

From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (05) [E]

>From: Patrick or Cynthia Karl <pkarl at grasshoppernet.com>
>Subject: Etymology
>
>From: Peter Snepvangers <snepvangers at optushome.com.au>
>Subject: Etymology
>
>Hello Ron and Lowland folks,
>I was wondering if you could help me understand about the origins of the
>English word "Garden". I have noticed there are at least 3 variations used
>by different languages with probably more variants used by these languages
>that I am not aware of.
>English - Garden
>German - Garten
>Limburgs 1 - Gaart
>Dutch - Tuin
>Afrikaans - Tuin
>Frisian - Tun
>Norwegian - Hage
>Danish - Have
>Limburgs 2 - Haof
>Has the meaning of garden changed throughout history?The 3 variations all
>have an English counterpart, not necessarily with the exact, but usually a
>closely related meaning:  garden, town, hedge.  The OED says that an early
>meaning of garden was "enclosed place".  The enclosure could be made either
>from a fence or a hedge.  Town is closely related to the Celtic word for
>"enclosed place", dunum, and to the German word for "fence", Zaun.  I think
>other cognates of garden are Russian grad, gorod, Czech hrad, Latin hortus;
>possibly French (and English) court.  (An especially interesting word in
>this category is English orchard, originally (i.e., in OE) ort-yeard, where
>the ort comes from or is related to Latin hortus, and the 2nd component is
>identical with English yard.  So an orchard is a yard-yard.)
>
I think the ort in ortgeard is more likely to be related to wort meaning
plant OE wyrt, wort Germanic wrót IE wrád
branch, root. Latin hortus is from IE gher- enclosure

David Barrow

----------

From: Ben J. Bloomgren <godsquad at cox.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (03) [E]

Is that how Stuttgart got its name?

----------

From: Mathieu van Woerkom <mathieu at brabants.org>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Peter Snepvangers wrote:

> I was wondering if you could help me understand about the origins of the
> English word "Garden". I have noticed there are at least 3 variations used
> by different languages with probably more variants used by these languages
> that I am not aware of.
> English - Garden
> German - Garten
> Limburgs 1 - Gaart
> Dutch - Tuin
> Afrikaans - Tuin
> Frisian - Tun
> Norwegian - Hage
> Danish - Have
> Limburgs 2 - Haof

Hoi Peter,

twee opmerkingen:
- Het Limburgse woord 'toen' betekent hetzelfde als het Ned. 'afrastering',
wellicht dat dit in het Oudned. ook wel de betekenis van het woord 'tuin'
(toen waarschijnlijk nog 'tuun') was. Het woord voor hetgene dat de tuin
omringde, werd waarschijnlijk later gebruikt als aanduiding voor de gehéle
tuin.
- Het Ned. woord 'hof' betekent in het Eng. 'court': o.a. de binnenplaats
van een kasteel of boerderij. In het woord 'kerkhof' is dit nog steeds terug
te vinden in de hedendaagse taal. Ik geloof dat in deleb van België het
woord 'hof' ook nog steeds wordt gebruikt voor 'tuin'.

Groeten,
Mathieu

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 28 22:42:21 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:42:21 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (08) [D/E]
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.154221.0700.>

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From: GoodbyColumbus at aol.com <GoodbyColumbus at aol.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (07) [D/E]

In a message dated 7/28/04 3:54:27 PM Central Daylight Time,
lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net writes:



  If I am not mistaken, English "guard," "ward," and "warden" also come from
  the same root as "garden" and "yard."

Yes, but by way of Old French "guarder" (garder), Old North French 'warder',
both of Teutonic origin.

Here's another etymology I found, Old French 'gardin' (F. jardin), of
Teutonic origin as well.

[Brad Conatser]

----------

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (07) [D/E]

> From: Mathieu van Woerkom <mathieu at brabants.org>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology"
>
> - Het Limburgse woord 'toen' betekent hetzelfde als het Ned.
'afrastering',
> ... Ik geloof dat in deleb van België het
> woord 'hof' ook nog steeds wordt gebruikt voor 'tuin'.

In my West-Limburgish (Vliermaal) the word is wermessof. I guess wermes
corresponds to "warmoes" (cf. lemma from the WNT below)
In Central Limburgish (Mopertingen) I hear "moestuin".
The "moes" is apparently common.

Regards,
Roger

-- annex: lemma "warmoes" from the WNT CDROM

WARMOES — WARMMOES, WERMOES —, znw. onz., in enkele  wdb. (vanaf CALISCH
[1864] t/m KUIPERS [1901]) onz. (het gewas)  en vr. (het gerecht), mv.
warmoezen. Uit warm (I) en moes.  Mnl. warmoes; mnd. warmôs; mhd. warmuos.
Naast de gegeven  nevenvormen zijn ook incidenteel spellingen aangetroffen
als warremes,  waermoes, wermmoes, wermoos en wermis.
1) Groente, moeskruid; inz. groene groente, bladgroente. Als gewas. ||
SASBOUT [1576]. Waerm-moes ... Olus, olus coctiuum, herba esculenta dicitur
waermmoes, KIL. [1588]. V. DALE [1872 ®].
a) In 't alg. || Wermoes lie, wermoes lie, roepen dees wiven; krieclie,
kerslie comen oock met hoopen, A. BIJNS (?) in Leuv. Bijdr. 4, 354 [voor
1540]. Ghy claddekens fier „ jent int bestier, Diet groen wermoes vercoopen,
Comt al tot hier „ sonder dangier, En wilt v borss ontcnoopen, Antw. Sp. m
iv rº [1561]. Wat dat profiter ware om de nieuwe vischmarct te verbeteren,
soe met aldaer te doen staen die wermoes oft suvel oft hoenderen ende ander
vogelen vercoopen, R.G.P. 75, 777 [1567]. Dat binnen Leyden geen broot en
was, maer alleen gegeten werden asschecouxkens, wortelen, aiuwyen, looc ende
ander wermoos, WOUTER JACOBSZ, Dagb. 433 [1574]. Sy (quam) naer huus ... met
waermoes, die sy up de maerct gecocht hadde, bij CANNAERT, Bijdr. 485
[1604]. Dese vrouwen waren int veldt om warremes ofte groentte te plucken
gegaen, Daghreg. Bat. 1628, 376 [1628]. Zyn Wel Ed. Gestr. gaf hem vryheid
om een Beestje te weiden voor zyn huisgezin, en een stukje lands tot
warmoes, Verh. Holl. Maatsch. Weet. 18, 590 [1778]. Hier zag men een
schuitjen, dat met warmoes van over het meir aankwam, tegen een Enkhuizer
jol stuiten, V. LENNEP, Rom. 5, 7 [1836].
— Warmoes scherven, hakken, groente snijden e.d. || Het quaet iaer bracht my
oyt aen dees teve (t.w. "myn wyf"); Zy doet my den ketel, en den hanghel
schueren, Het wermoes scherven, de pappe rueren, A. BIJNS in Leuv. Bijdr. 4,
320 [voor 1540]. An u moet ghi trecken des huus geheel bestier ...: Ghy en
mueght den pap niet laten bederuen. Den pot moetti heeten, en dwarm moes
scheruen, DE CASTELEIN, Const v. Rhetor. 156 [1548]. Non fortse, ick wil mij
pijnen te spoene, Om dwermoes te schervene opt cort vermaen, Drie Esbat. 37
[1591]. Zy hackte warmoes, 't welck haer man noch daeghs voorheenen In 't
kleene hofken pluckte, VONDEL 11, 569 [1671].
— Warmoes koken, zieden. || Voord zuldi twermoes coecken nae mijn vertellen,
Esbat. v.d. Rode Lelije 131 [1559]. Om te weten hoemen warmoes, erten,
pomeyen schuldich is te sieden, VORSELMAN, Coock Boeck (ed. COCKX-INDESTEGE)
117 [1560]. Koockb. 16 [1599].
b) In 't bijz. als ben. voor bep. soorten groente en veelal  genoemd naast
of tgov. andere groentesoorten, inz. peulvruchten (erwten),  boonen, kool,
wortelen. || Dair hij wilt saeijen wermoes oft coolen, in L. DE MAN, Brab.
Oork. 147 [1537]. Martwijfs, of warmmoes wijfs, die op den mart voorstaen
met alderhande groenicheyt, als rapen, wortels, caroten, cauwels, en
warmmoes, Hist. v. Corn. Adr. 1, 60 b [ed. 1569]. Den voorsz Impost sal
ontfangen worden by den Collecteur ofte Pachter ... twee stuyvers ende een
oortgen ter Maent op elck gemeth Lants dat tegenwoordich besaeyt is met hart
of weeck Koorn, ront of plat Saet, Peen ..., Latou ende Warmoes, Gr.
Placaetb. 1, 1942 [1583]. 1, 1948 [1608]. Van alderley Groen, om te stoven,
Spinagie, Biet, Krop-sala, Endivie ..., Warmoes, Artisocken, Verm.
Landt-Lev. 3, 59 [1670]. Aen Warmoes, rapen en alderley Wortelen en Kool
6-0, Bewys Predik. Huysvr. 3 [1670]. Dat de Markt van Warmoes, Wortelen,
Kool, Groote en andere Boonen ... by continuatie zal worden gehouden aan de
Zuydzyde van de Groote Kerk, Keuren v. Haerlem 2, 340 b [1749]. Ned. Jaerb.
1749, 1042 [1749].
— Als ben. voor de prei (Allium porrum). || Minutal. Een pot pasteye,
ghecapt vleesch, oft gheschærft waermoes, PALUDANUS 29 b [1544]. LAMBRECHT
[1562].
— Als ben. voor een tweetal geslachten uit de fam. der  Chenopodiaceae
(ganzevoetachtigen).
     Beta Tourn.; inz. de gekweekte hoofdvormen Circa L.  (mangelwortel, die
als veevoeder dient) en Rápa Dum. (suiker-, en roode  biet) van de soort
Beta vulgaris L. || HANNOT-V. HOOGSTR. [1704]. BINNART-DE WILDE [1719]. — De
Beete is hier te Lande met den naem Wermmoes genoech bekent, DODON. 1054 b
[ed. post. 1608]. HEUKELS 39 [1907]. Beta .... vulgaris var. Cicla ...
italische beetwortel, mangelwortel, snijbeet, snijbiet, waarmoes, warmoes,
GERTH V. WIJK, Plantnames 171 a [1911].
     Atriplex Tourn.; inz. de soort A. hortensis L.  (Tuinmelde), die
ongeschikt is om als voedsel te dienen. || DE BO [1873]. Atriplex ....
Hortensis L. Cosmopol. ... belle dame, hofmelde, luizenmelde ..., tuinmelde,
waarmoech, warmoes, wermes, GERTH V. WIJK, Plantnames 148 a [1911].
2) Gerecht, gekookt of gestoofd, van veelal fijngehakte groente met
verschillende toevoegsels; groenteschotel; stoofschotel; groentestoverij.
Als  spijs voor den mensch. || Wermoes oft pottagie van groene kruyden,
SASBOUT [1576]. MELLEMA [1618]. BOMHOFF [1857]. V. DALE [1872 ® 1898].
KUIPERS [1901].
a) In 't alg. || Ende op dat hi mi seer lief mocht crigen soe soude ic hem
teten geuen wermoes des noens op sint ians auont ghepluct, Euang. v.d.
Spinr. D iiij rº [c. 1500]. Des sanderendachs (zal men opdienen) 'smiddags
eerst gecruyt warmoes, hammen ofte scoeren, werenvleys, ende elc een pynte
wijns, in E. Volk 11, 90 [c. 1550]. Omdat door dese groente (zeker kruid
tegen scheurbuik), die sowel tot zalaet als warmoes ghebruyckt wierd, ons
volck in seer korten tijd alt'saem op de beenen geraeckten en ververscht
werden, continueerden wij alle dagen dese groente te halen, in VOORB.
CANNENB., Nass. Vloot 79 [1624]. Ontrent 3 ueren voorden avont keerde onse
vaertuijgen weder; brengende verscheijde monsters van Groenten ... eenige
niet ongelijck Zeecker groente die aende Cabo de bona Esperance groeijt ende
bequaem is als warmoes te gebruijcken, TASMAN, Journ. 32 [1642]. Men noemt
in de kookerij ook Moes of groen Moes, ook war-Moes, een gestoof van deze of
geene Moes- of keuken gewassen, CHOMEL 2167 b [1771]. Burgerlieden waren al
wel tevreden met een schotel warmoes, een stuk koud vleesch en eenig fruit,
SCHOTEL, O.-Holl. Huisg. 351 [1868].
— In toep. op groenteschotels van sla, postelein, spinazie. || Die oude
menschen (moeten) scuwen ... coude wermoesen als latue, porceleyne ende dier
ghelijcke, Tregement der ghesontheyt b iv vº [1514]. Hij roert er in (in de
spinazie); hij vindt twee achterpooten Van d' armen kikvorsch, onder 't
warmoes kort gehakt, STARING 4, 125 [c. 1824].
— Ook in toep. op een gerecht van o.a. witte kool, melk en vleesch.  Vgl.
voor een derg. gerecht GROENMOES (Dl. V, 848 e.v.). || Warmoes die goed is,
word gekookt van 2 Mengelen Melk, 11/2 groote witte Kool, 1/2 kop
haverdegort en 1/2 £ Tarwenmeel; 't vlees en worst is na elks verkiezing,
BOEKENOOGEN [1897]. Volgens oude keukenrekeningen behoorden ook warmoes (uit
kool, melk en spek samengesteld), rechte "kermiskost", "koecken van eijeren
en poffenbroodt" enz. ... tot het derde gerecht, SCHOTEL, O.-Holl. Huisg.
325 [ed. 1904].
— Geklonterd warmoes, groenteschotel met stukjes spek en/of  vleesch erin
(?). || Het eerste gherecht ... Daer droncken zy toe goe claer Delfs wijn,
Daer was gheclontert warmoes by, Spierinck en Pos en stock-visch oock,
Bloem-Hof v.d. Ned. Ieught 188 a [ed. 1610].
— In toep. op een moes van populierebladeren, als geneesmiddel. Vgl.  voor
de geneesk. toep. van de bladeren en knoppen van een populier b.v. ook  Mnl.
W. i.v. popelbotte en -knoppe, alsmede  POPULIERZALF (Dl. XII2 , 3476). ||
Rasent hi (de patiënt) oec luttel op, salmen hem saluen die borst met oly
die is ghemaect van fiolen ende hi sal eten warmoes dat van pople ghemaect
is met smoute, in BRAEKMAN, Mnl. Recepten 150 [begin 16de e.].
— Kort, resp. lang warmoes, groenteschotel van fijn  gehakte, resp. in zijn
geheel of grof gesneden gekookte groente (?), dan wel  een derg. gerecht van
een korte dan wel een lange soort groente. Vgl. in dit  verband ook de 3de
aanh., waarin het woord historiseerend wordt gebruikt, de  eerste maal
echter in de verb. koud warmoes (of is dit te lezen als  kort warmoes ?). ||
Op Dinghsdagh des middaeghs tot voor-spijs, kort Warmoes, groen ofte van
Kool, voor het tweede Gericht, gesprenght ofte gesouten Vleesch enz., Gr.
Placaetb. 1, 297 [1631]. Op Vrydagen des middaeghs tot voor-spijs, graeu
Erreweten, Knollen ofte Kool, langh Warmoes zijnde gestooft, voor het tweede
gericht Visch, 1, 298 [1631]. Doorgaans bestond het eerste geregt uit de
potagie, b.v. uit groene of graauwe erwten met boter en ajuin, ... tweebak
of grutten gestoofd, koud warmoes met kool gestoofd, langwarmoes, groene
erwten met boter doorregen of overgoten enz., SCHOTEL, O.-Holl. Huisg. 349
[1868].
— In een woordspeling met de gedachte aan de bet. ‘lijdzaamheid,  geduld’
van patiëntie, dat ook dient als ben. voor een soort zuring  (vgl. Dl. XII1,
786). || Yder man kan een quaed wijf regeeren, behalven die-ze heeft. Wat
raed dan voor een, die een tafel zoo gheschotelt heeft? niet beter, als een
warmoes van patientie, op de maghe, te leggen, DE BRUNE, Bank. 2, 322
[1658].
— In een zinspeling in toep. op de schotel linzen, voor welke Esau zijn
eerstgeboorterecht verkocht aan zijn jongeren broeder Jakob (Gen. 25,
29-34). || Honger is toch een scherp zwaard, en er zijn van ouds voorbeelden
voorhanden, dat sommige lieden ... wel eens al hun geluk en welvaart voor
een potje warmoes verkocht hebben, FOKKE, B.R. 2, 53 [1809].
b) In 't bijz. in toep. op een met water (of melk) tot soep  verdund
gerecht; groentesoep. || Pottagie oft warmoes. Neemt cruyt daertoe dienende,
moescruyt, doeget wat in heet water dan schervet cleyne, daer na vrivet wel
in eenen mortier enz., VORSELMAN, Coock Boeck (ed. COCKX-INDESTEGE) 120
[1560]. Somma om den honger te stoppen van alle gerande groene cruijden, die
men aen die vesten ofte wallen hebben conen crijghen, heeft men waermoes af
gemaeckt, VERWER, Memoriaelb. 103 [1573]. Wy gaven ons volc ... ses mutsgens
water, en koockten een groote ketel warmoes van dat groene kruyt als
tuynkars ..., daer van het volc merckelijcke baet ende verquickinge creghen
teghen het scheurbuyck, O.-I. e. W.-I. Voyag. 9, 165 [1600]. Klaer waerje,
had' jet graen, slegs tot de rysten-bry! Ajuin, en kool en spek, goet kruit
is tot het wer'mis, En wermis kermis-kost; voorseker is het kermis; Jae
kermis in de kroft; men byt 'er in de worst, OUDAAN, Poëzy 2, 137 [1646].
Warmoes, voor de Vasten hoe men die maaken zal. Neemt allerhande
moeskruiden, hoe jonger hoe beeter, en verleest en wascht die wel enz.,
Holl. Keukenm. 132 [1746]. Warmoes die goed is, word gekookt van 2 Mengelen
Melk, 11/2 groote witte Kool, 1/2 kop haverdegort en 1/2 £ Tarwenmeel enz.,
in BOEKENOOGEN [eind 18de e.].
c) In eenige spreekw., fig. uitdr. en zegsw.
— Het zal een vreemde warmoes zijn, het zal een verwarden  toestand geven,
een janboel, een rommeltje worden. || Coempt laet ons gaen den blinden
leyen! Eer dat wy schyen salt noch een vremdt wermes syn: alst regent en die
son schynt moet in die helle kermes syn, Hass. Sp. 33 [2de h. 16de e.].
— Kool is kost en warmoes is eten, zie voor de bet. KOOL  (II) (Dl. VII2,
5349). In de 2de aanh. met de toevoeging dat staat in den  Bijbel
geschreven. || Kool is kost, en warmoes is eten, HARREB. 1, 186 b [1858].
Kool is kost en warmoes is eten, dat staat in de bijbel geschreven,
BOEKENOOGEN 2, Aanh. 1 (ed. 1971) [1930].
— Die op warmoes drinkt, verkrenkt zijn maag. || Die op pottage, of
warm-moes drinct, Verkrenct zijn maegh' meer als hy dinct, DE BRUNE,
Spreeckw. 169 [1636]. HARREB. 2, 44 a [1861].
— In eenige zegsw. waarin sprake is van het voor de eerste maal eten  van
warmoes, ter uitdr. van een zeer jongen leeftijd.
     Van dat hij zijn eerste warmoes at, vanaf heel jongen  leeftijd, nl.
van het moment af dat hij overging van de moedermelk op gewoon  voedsel; van
kindsbeen af. || Van dat hi sijn eerste wermoes adt, SERVILIUS 1, b [1543].
HARREB. 2, 436 b [1861].
     Die hun eerste warmoes eten hebben nog geen gesloten  hersenpan, bij
hen is de fontenel nog niet gesloten, zij zijn dus nog zeer  jong. || Die
haer eerste warmoes noch eten, en hebben de herssen-pan noch niet gesloten,
BURGHOORN, N. Wer. v. Gecken 60 [1641]. HARREB. 3, CXXIII a [1870].
— Gij zult gestooten warmoes eten. || Ghy sult gestoten wermoes eten,
SARTORIUS III, 10, 41 [1561]. DE BRUNE, Spreeckw. 469 [1636]. Gij zult
gestooten warmoes eten. Men zegt dit tot een' hongerig' mensch; omdat de
hongerige alles eet, wat hij krijgen kan, HARREB. 2, 436 b [1861].
— Verhapt u niet in uw warmoes, neem niet meer op je dan je  aankunt, of:
neem er niet te veel van (gezegd als er maar weinig is). Vgl.  verhappen, 2)
(Dl. XIX, 2393). || Verhapt v niet in v warmmoes, SARTORIUS I, 6, 90 [1561].
— In toep. waarin iem. of iets vergeleken wordt met warmoes zonder  spek,
ter uitdr. van armelijkheid, armzaligheid. || De honderste Penningen hebben
de Juffers, die niet ryk waaren, doen aanzien als warmoes zonder spek, en
daarom kregen zy geen naalde op haar compas, DOEDYNS, Merc. 1, 137 [1697].
Dat is warmoes zonder spek. Men zegt in gelijken zin: Het is mager moesje
zonder spek, HARREB. 3, XCII b [1870].
— In een zegsw. met als bet.: van den een slikt men alles en van den  ander
niet het geringste. || Zij zouden den een het warmoes wel uit de tanden
likken, en den ander gunnen ze niet, dat hij het uitwerpt, HARREB. 3,
CLXXVIII a [1870].
— In eenige zegsw. met als bet.: haastige spoed is zelden goed. || Weest
niet alte haestich ende hettich in v waermoes, SARTORIUS I, 1, 33 [1561]. Hy
is dick alte haestich in sijn warmmoes, II, 4, 61 [1561]. Ghy sijt alte
haestich in wermoes, III, 3, 92 [1561].
— Hij likt zijn vingers zoo smakelijk als een boer, die warmoes  eet. ||
HARREB. 1, 71 a [1858].
— Water op je warmoes en met bloote beenen naar bed, als  schertsende
bedreiging voor kinderen. || BOEKENOOGEN 2, Aanh. 1, 515 b (ed. 1971)
[1930].
Afl. — Warmoezenier, -zerij, -zier (zie die woorden).
Samenst. en samenst. afl. Als tweede lid o.a. in:  kervel-, knol-, kool-,
lang-, roerwarmoes.
Als eerste lid in: warmoesbol, gehaktbal bestaande uit gehakte  groente,
vleesch e.d., of bol van een bolgewas of bolvormige groente (ui,  kool e.d.)
(?); vgl. in dezen laatsten zin BOL (I) (Dl. III1, 286). || Frederick de
Voocht van Rijneveld, dolle, Van bontwerckers ende brouwers zijt ghy
gekomen, U over-oude-moeder sat t'Amsterdam, verkocht warmoesbollen, Hoe
zydy nu dus uytgenomen, Dat ghy van de Coenroetsen wout zijn geacht? in V.
VLOTEN, Geschiedz. 1, 192 [1528].
— Warmoeseter, die warmoes eet; in de aanh. (in het mv.) als  scheldnaam
voor de inwoners van Koolkerke (W.-Vl.). || Adieu oock ... RoomEters van
moerbeke, ghy zonder Poer ende WaermoesEters van coolkercke snelle Adieu, DE
DENE, Test. in Jaarb. "De Fonteine" 29, 209 [1560].
— Warmoesgilde, gilde der warmoeziers. || Deecken ende Hooftman van het
Warmoes-gilden binnen Leyden, BORT, Dom. 50 b [c. 1670].
— Warmoesgroen, zekere groentestoofschotel. || De schaffmeester wert
gehouden dagelycx ten behoorlycken uyren ... aen te rechten: ... Op
Dynsdagen des middachs tot voorspijs kort warmoesgroen ofte van kool, R.G.P.
29, 273 * [1631].
— Warmoeshof. 1º. Groentetuin, moestuin. || KIL. [1588]. V. DALE [1872 ®]. —
Hyer bij is oeck ene wermoes hoff vol ghaten ende holen, daer oock veel
heiligen hoer selven in verburghen hadden tempore passionis, in Bijdr.
Gesch. Bisd. Haarlem 11, 91 [1525]. Wy sullen ... beghinnen te beschrijuen
de Houen, en ten alder eersten den Warmoes hof, de welcke afghedeylt ende
gheschickt is gheweest neffens den Cruydt-hof, STEVENS en LIEBAUT, Landtw.
180 [1582]. Dat mijne Heeren van den Gerechte ... interdiceren ende
verbieden ... eenige erven te hoogen in eeniger manieren ...: uyt geseyt 't
hogen van ... Warmoes-hoven, ende 't stellen van Ramen, Handv. v. Amst. 1008
a [1589]. De Netele des Zees, op hare styve lippen End over t'gladde lijf
een schadelijcken brand End heete cole draeght, die op de stoute hand Een
vier'ghe bleyn' ontsteeckt, als in de warm-moes hoven Het cruyd'ken Roer-my-
niet, een vier niet om verdoven In sijn groen bladen voedt, V. BORSSELEN,
Strande 32 [1611]. Warmoes, Ajuyn, Wortelen ..., en alle andere diergelijcke
Vruchten, die men in Warmoes- Hoven gewoon is te teelen, BORT, Dom. 50 b [c.
1670]. Eenen woonhuijse, stallinghe, schuere, met voordere Edificien ende
gronde van Erve dyer met den Warmoeshof, in GOOSSENAERTS [1778].
     2º. Boomgaard (?). Vgl. ook de volg. alinea. || Inden yersten de hoeve
te wetene huysinghe met schuere etc metten wermoes hoff oft bogaert, in
GOOSSENAERTS [1539].
     Hierbij: warmoeshofboomgaard, combinatie van groentetuin en  boomgaard
(?). || Al tgunt, dat licht ... noortwart lancx den wech tot Coppen int
warmoeshofboomgart ende vandaer streckende noortwart uuyt voorby Adriaen van
der Hoogens boomgaert, R.G.P. 54, 640 [1546].
— Warmoesketel. Zie Dl. VII1 , 2506.
— Warmoeskom, kom om warmoes uit te eten. || 4 Mostert potten, 10 warmoes
commentjes, 1 lampet, 2 trechters, 1 waterpot, 2 half pintjes, 17 stuck
silvere lepels ende een beecker enz., Dagreg. S. Jorge da Mina 370 [1645].
— Warmoeskoopster, groenteverkoopster, -vrouw. Alleen in de wdb.
aangetroffen. || HALMA [1778]. KUIPERS [1901].
— Warmoeskop, soepkop. || Wy creghen van haer (zekere inboorlingen) een
Warmoescop, en een Schotel seer grof, met root en groen gheschildert, 't was
Porceleyn, daer zy seer licht afscheydeden, Ontdekkingsr. v. Le Maire en
Schouten 1, 88 [1616]. 16 Groote holle commen, 33 quaert en warmoescoppen, 6
cleyne pimpeltgens enz., Econ.-Hist. Jaarb. 10, 180 [1622].
— Warmoeskruid, (blad)groente. || JUNIUS, Nomencl. 130 a [1567]. HEREMANS
[1869]. — Ende dieghene, die mit warmoescruyt ende diergelijcke groene
wairen ter marct comen, sullen staen in gaerde noortwaerts upgaende,
Rechtsbr. v. Gouda 362 [1521]. Dog alles was buyten des tijts, vermits het
nu somer alhier begonde te werden ..., soodat wij tot onse ververschinge
niet anders dan warmoeskruyden en wat wortelen en artisocken konden krijgen
bij dese tijd des jaers, J.M. V. RIEBEECK, Br. 47 [1676]. Van alle de
Warmoes-Kruiden, die Rechttydig in deeze Maand zyn, is de Zuuring zekerlyk
een van de beste, zynde Bloedzuiverende en verquikkende, Holl. Huyshoudster
89 [c. 1780].
— Warmoesland, (stuk) land, waar groenten, moeskruiden geteeld  worden. ||
HEXHAM [1678]. V. DALE [1872 ®]. — Een stuckgen warmoeslandt, groot omtrent
een hondt, by den hoop zonder maet, gelegen in Leyderdorp, Kenningb. Leiden
1, 47 [1570]. Alle Erven, Boomgaerden, Kruyt-hoven, Speel-hoven,
Warmoes-landen ..., vande welcke eenige Vruchten ofte Inkomsten ghetrocken
worden, Gr. Placaetb. 1, 1528 [1635]. Rontomme becinghelt zijnde, met
ontelbaere Lust-hoven ofte Thuynen ..., schoone hooge Weylanden, groene
Beemden, goede Coorn-landen, Warmoes-landen, ORLERS, Beschr. v. Leyden 3
[1641]. Het (is) ook beter, dat men de akkers der Warmoes-landen in het
voor- als in het na-jaer spit, DE LA COURT V.D. VOORT, Landh. 311 [1737].
Biljet van verhuring van warmoeslanden door gemelden Heer van Schagen,
Bijdr. Gesch. Bisd. Haarlem 4, 397 [1876].
— Warmoesman (-lieden, -luiden). 1º. Persoon die groenten  teelt voor den
verkoop; warmoezier, hovenier, tuinder. In de 5de aanh. mog.  ook in den zin
van: iemand die den tuin van een ander aanlegt en/of  onderhoudt; tuinman,
tuinbaas (vgl. hovenier, 2) (Dl. VI, 1205). || KIL. [1599]. — Item ontf. van
Evert, die wermoesman, van dat hy Jonge Dirck angeseyt heeft, dat hy sijn
loon onthouden hadde, die twiedeel van 2 R. gld., facit 35 sc. 4 d. 8 m.,
R.G.P. 14, 212 [1502]. Ende de ruychte zal men mede wech moeten doen precyes
vóór deselve tijdt ende die zal men mogen brengen in de put achter de Waegh.
Welcke ruychte oock de warmoesluyden in de geheele weeck duer noch sullen mo
eten brengen, eer dat sij van de marct scheijden, bij BIK, Medisch Lev. 511
[1614]. Ick (moet) alhier mede gedencken het Gilde vande Warmoesluyden, het
welcke alhier veel grooter ende meerder is als in eenige gebuyr-steden,
ORLERS, Beschr. v. Leyden 264 [1641]. De Warmoeslieden (Hoveniers)
(opschrift), J. GAILLIARD, Amb. en Ner. Brugge 2, 181 [1854].
     2º. Soms ook: boomkweeker. || Is gheconsenteert tot verzoucke ende
begheerte van alle die wermoesluyden, die eynten ende jonge bomen jairlicx
teelen, ende carreluyden, dat enz., Rechtsbr. v. Gouda 240 [1521].
— Warmoesmand, groentemand. || Een Vlaems spinwieltgen mit een ander
spinwieltgen; 8 warmoesmanden, zoe nyeuwt als out; een visthon; 5 haspelen
enz., R.G.P. 140, 527 [1585].
— Warmoesmarkt, groentemarkt. || PALUDANUS 5 d [1544]. WEIDENBACH [1808]. —
Alhier scheyden haer drie wegen, een na der Chinesen cramen, den tweeden nae
de groen oft Warmoes merckt, ende de derde na de vleesch merckt, O.-I. e.
W.-I. Voyag. 2, 44 c [1598]. C.P. HOOFT, Mem. en Adv. 2, 367 [1605].
— Warmoesnering, groentehandel. || Geen warmoes-neeringe, noch oock eenige
leveringe van eenigerhande warmoes-vruchten ... te doen, Keuren v. Leyden 76
[ed. 1658].
— Warmoespot. 1º. Pot om groente (met evt. toevoegsels) in te  koken of
stoven. || Die man sal alle sijne kleederen nemen, sijn gordel, sijn harnas
..., een spade, sijn warmoespot den besten sonder een, een lepel ende mes,
bij V. AELST, Oudewater 500 [c. 1510]. Een grooten ende cleynen (koperen)
wermoespot, in WEYNS, Volkshuisraad in Vl. 428 [1539].
     (Spreekw.) Kleine warmoespotjes preutelen ook, hoe gering of
onbelangrijk een spotter ook is, zijn spot kan toch groote schade
aanrichten. || Het heeft v gelust met dit Concilie (t.w. dat van Trente) ...
uwen spot te houden, ende de gheheele authoriteyt vant Concilie te
ver-blaesen (want kleyn warm-moes potkens preutelen oock), REINERI, Verantw.
21 [1605].
     In een zei-spreuk. || Elk wat, (sey de Warmoespot) dan heeft niemand te
klagen, Lyste v. Rar. 1, 210 [1706]. HARREB. 2, 196 a [1861].
     2º. Stoofschotel van groente (met evt. toevoegsels);  groentestoverij.
|| Baasje van Schaagen, Doet de Steêgang voor zyn Wyf ...; Wyl zyn Vrouw hem
t'huis verbeid, En de Warmoespot bereid, V. GYZEN, Verm. Buitenlev. 51
[1716].
— Warmoesschotel. || Item dat nyemant wermoesschotelen, souzieren,
soutvaten, maten, trejoren, stroylpotten ofte schelen van steenen, pothens
maecken en sal dan van stoff geheyten graauw teen, in Ambachtsg. 's-Hert. 1,
399 [1503]. In de bottelarie: 3 plateelkens ..., 2 warmoesschotelen, ende
een cleyn keteltgen, R.G.P. 141, 142 [1568].
— Warmoesschuit, boot voor het vervoeren van groente (naar de  markt);
snebschuit. || Voor ider Schutting (zal) betaelt moeten werden als volgt:
Van een vlot, of dubbelde modderschuyt 2 st. ... Een Warmoes of Snebschuyt 1
st., Handv. v. Amst. 319 b [1697].
— Warmoessop, groentesoep. || BINNART [1654]. POMEY [1760]. — Moes, oft
groen vverm-moes-sop, het vvelck bestaet in een menghelingh van tien oft
meer verscheyde cruyden, V. STERBEEK, Toon. d. Campern. ** 3 [1675].
— Warmoestiend, de tiend die op groenten geheven werd. || De Sententie van
den Hove van Hollandt ..., daer by dat de Ingelanden van de Made buyten
Delft gecondemneert zyn ... Warmoesthienden te betaelen, BORT, Dom. 50 a [c.
1670].
— Warmoestuin, groentetuin, moestuin. || SEWEL [1691]. V. DALE [1872 ®]. —
Men (en sal) geen erven buyten deser Stede van St. Antonis poort zuyd-waerts
totte Haerlemmer dijck toe binnen de vryheyt deser stede gelegen mogen
hoogen, uytgeseyt alleen de warmoes ende kruyd-tuynen, omme warmoes ofte
kruyd te gekrijgen, Handv. v. Amst. 1006 b [1553]. Een Warmoestuyn met de
Wooninge daar op staande, Amst. Secret. 42 [ed. 1737]. De warmoestuinen aan
beide zijden van de Steenstraat (te Leiden), FRUIN, Geschr. 2, 403 [1874].
— Warmoestuinder, groenteteler. || Oft nyet oirbaer waere ..., dat 't
Waeterpoortgen over die Lastaige, mitsgaders Jan Roodenpoorte, tot geryeff
van den bleycksters, warmoesthuynders ende anderen, geopent werde, R.G.P.
69, 399 [1578].
— Warmoesverkooper, -ster. || PALUDANUS 34 c [1544]. V.D. ENDE [1695].
KUIPERS [1901].
— Warmoesvrouw, groentevrouw, groenteverkoopster. Vgl.  -wijf. || MARIN
[1701]. WEIDENBACH [1808].
— Warmoesvruchten (mv.), de versch. soorten groenten, moeskruid. || Dat van
nu voortaen geene persoonen ... hen sullen mogen vervorderen eenige
Warmoes-vrugten over den Over-toom van het eene Schip in 't ander te
verbomen, Handv. v. Amst. 350 b [1618]. De Warmoes-vruchten, werden vercocht
aen de Noordt-zijde van den nieuwen Rhijn, beginnende aen de Coornbrugge,
ORLERS, Beschr. v. Leyden 275 [1641]. De Vroetschap der Stad Utrecht
interdiceert, ende verbiet by deesen, by provisie alle en een jegelyk,
woonende buyten de duysent roeden, ... binnen deese Stad te ... verkoopen,
anders als op de weekelykse marktdagen, eenige warmoes- ofte aard-vruchten,
Placaatb. v. Utr. 3, 818 a [1653]. Dat geen warmoes en boom-vrugten
tiendbaer zijn, ten zy imant speciael geregtigt zy, V. ZURCK, Cod. Bat. 715
a [1711]. Die geenen, die met hunne Warmoesvruchten op dezelve Markt zouden
wllen voorstaan, N. Ned. Jaerb. 1780, 750 [1780].
— Warmoeswijf, groentevrouw, -verkoopster. || LAMBRECHT [1546]. WEIDENBACH
[1808]. — Soe gebiedt den heeren van de Gerechte, dat alle die warmoeswijven
... van stonden an alle bladen dat zij van den wortelen ende cool vergaderen
ende ofsnijden, dat zij alle die bladen ende anders van der vuylnisse voir
him nemen ende wechdoen, bij BIK, Medisch Lev. 102 [1527]. Warmoes-wijfs,
die op de marckt voort staen met alderhande groenlijckheydt, Hist. v. Corn.
Adr. 1, 94 [1569]. Sy (de olifanten) hebben voor een manier dat sy dickwils
op die mercten gaen, daermen alle groenicheyt vercoopt ... ende die dan den
Olyphant goetgunstich is, werpt hem wat voor: Onder ander wasser een van
dese vercoopsters, ende Warmoes-wijf, die altoos den Olyphant wat voor wierp
vant geen datse hadde, V. LINSCHOTEN, Itiner. 69 b [1596].

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 28 22:44:11 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:44:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2004.07.28 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.154411.0700.>

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From: Roger Hondshoven 2 <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2004.07.27 (05) [A/E]

Hi,

J.L. Pauwels was indeed a great lecturer at the KUL, Leuven (Belgium), but
as far as I know he passed away somewhere in the seventies.

Kind regards,

Roger Hondshoven


From: HALLS Haeng-Cho <zzhhalls at student.uq.edu.au>
Subject:

 Re "negation", I would like to add that in 1958 Dr. J. L. Pauwels
published
> a very fine article titled "De expletieve ontkenning nie(t) aan het einde
> van de zin in het Zuidnederlands en het Afrikaans"

Baie dankie hiervoor, Luc. U inset het ongetwyveld kol getref!

> Afrikaners (or is that "Afrikaansers" these days?),

Well, we say (& have fore some time) ' Afrikaan - Afrikane' for an African
or Africans, covering any nation from Nama to Amazig, 'Afrikaner -
Afrikaners' for ourselves, & 'Afrikander - Afrikanders' for a local breed of
draught cattle. The difference between 'Afrikaner' & 'Afrikander' can stir
up quite as much heat here as the difference between 'Scots' & 'Scotch' (I
duck). The word 'Afrikaanses' (Afrikaans ones) would be an appropriate
extrapolation needed on the spur of the moment to differentiate, for
example, in a party, between those who speak Afrikaans & those who do not.

> Don't you also use the tag _... nê?_ or _... nè?_ where English uses tag
> questions ("..., isn't it?", "..., don't you?" etc.)

Hey! Is that the same Dr. J. L. Pauwels I had for linguistics at Monash Uni
in the mid 90s? Great Lecturer, by the way

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 28 22:45:24 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:45:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.28 (10) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.154524.0700.>

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From: Frank Verhoft <frank.verhoft at skynet.be>
Subject: resources

Hi Troy, Ron, all

First of all many thanks to Ron and Troy for the clarifying replies!!

Troy:
<<<In English at least "Pelasgian" generally refers to the pre-Greek
inhabitants of Greece and Anatolia. The surviving loan-words and place names
that made their way into Classical Greek indicate the language(s) was/were
non-Indo-European (thus excluding Hittite and related Anatolian
languages).<<<

Ron:
<<<I suppose this is why the author "so-called" (expressing disagreement)
before "Pelasgian," assumedly because the name had come to be used for an
Italic group.<<<

Oops, it was me who added the "so-called" before Pelasgian, but indeed
expressing disagreement:
- "pael. = paelignisch" [=? so-called Pelasgian].

I knew the term Pelasgian only in the sense Troy uses it too, but if i'm not
wrong, there are a lot of problems with it.

Anyway, most has been clarified, still struggling a bit with Francks "beir."
("bair." in Fick's dictionary) vs.  Francks "beierl."

Thnaks again,

Frank

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 28 23:52:42 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:52:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (11) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.165242.0700.>

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From: Roger Hondshoven 2 <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (03) [E]

Hello Ron,

In Brabant the word  " hof " is used in the meaning of garden. The noun is
masculine, as opposed to "hof" in general Dutch, which is neuter and has the
meaning of 'royal court'. In Middle Dutch the word 'hof' was used as
masculine and neuter in both meanings. The original meaning was probably
"enclosed space" (just like "tuin") and later on some kind of "dwelling"
inhabited by a farmer - at one end of the social ladder - or by a noble lord
at the other end. The word was known in all other old Germanic language
varieties in similar meanings.

Kind regards,

Roger Hondshoven

----------

From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (03) [E]

In Westflemish a "tuun" is a (wooden) fence. "Een Hof" is a garden.
Another strange specific westflemish word is "lochting" denoting more
specifically a vegetable garden.
We only speak about "Bogaard"( we might remember the actor Dirk Bogarde, who
was of Westflemish origin, whose real name was Vandenbogaerde) for
"Boom-gaard" .
Meaning a sort of fenced  garden (with hedges) with only trees (bomen), in
fact referring to an orchard. By the way, what might be the etymology of
"orchard"?

Denis Dujardin
West-Flanders

----------

From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (08) [D/E]

Indeed, the root of Garden and Garder in French is the same. It is a piece
of land, that has been enclosed from the rest of the landscape, with as a
consequence, that it has to be guarded against the rest of the environment.
It is intersting to see the connotation which lies behind. Here is a
connotation of protection, whereas in Russian f.e. it is translated by
"Sad" - the stem being related to the neutral verb of sedith. To settle, to
sit.

In Danish the Garden is a "have". In Dutch we have the expression " ze
vetrokken met have en goed" , meaning "they left for an unknown destination,
taking with them everything which was valuable for them. The word have as
such is not used anymore. Only in this expression.

Denis Dujardin
West-Flanders

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, guys!

Aren't we the busy little etymology bees today?  ;-)

One of our very own favorite West Flemings, Denis Dujardin (perhaps a
Gallicization of *van den Gaerde by any chance?), wrote:

> In Danish the Garden is a "have". In Dutch we have the expression " ze
vetrokken
> met have en goed" , meaning "they left for an unknown destination, taking
with them
> everything which was valuable for them. The word have as such is not used
anymore.
> Only in this expression.

I wonder if that has a different origin, Denis.  (Besides, this Danish _-v-_
is derived from _-g-_, thus relationship with Dutch/Afrikaans/Saxon _haag_
and English _haw_.)  This Dutch _have_ -- probably quite archaic, if not a
specialized, nativized loan from German _Hab(e)_ -- may have something to do
with 'to have', Dutch _hebben_.  The same saying exists in German _(sie
verzogen) mit Hab und Gut_ 'They moved (on) with all that they owned'.
_Habe_ (related to _haben_ 'to have') is still a used noun meaning
"belongings" or "(entire) property."  Old Saxon has _hava_ and Middle Saxon
_have_ in the same sense.  I'm not aware of the use of expected Modern Saxon
*_have_ ~ _haav'_ though.

German _Gut_ (related to _gut_ 'good') here means 'estate', pretty much the
equivalent of English "estate" in all contexts.  Old Saxon has _gōd_, Middle
Saxon _gôd_ and Modern Saxon _goud_ (<God>, <Good>) with the same meaning.

> In Westflemish a "tuun" is a (wooden) fence.

Interesting!  Just like Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _tuun_!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 29 00:16:06 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:16:06 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (12) [D/E]
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.171606.0700.>

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From: Peter Snepvangers <snepvangers at optushome.com.au>
Subject: Etymology


Dank U Wel Ron en allemaal.
Ik heb gedachte naar het verbinding van Tuin en Town maar niet van Hof en
Court. Daar is heel veel aardig kennis op deze lage lander lijst.
All this talk about groentetuin has made me hungry so I am off to eat my
breakfast.
Tot Siens
Peter S
snepvangers at optushome.com.au

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

You're more than welcome, Pete!

> All this talk about groentetuin has made me hungry so I am off to eat my
breakfast.

And it's almost time for my dinner (here American for "tea") on the day
before.

Groeten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 29 14:32:36 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 07:32:36 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.29 (01) [E]
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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Resources

Beste Frank,

"Beierlands" refers to the language spoken in Beierland, an area just south
of Rotterdam (the Netherlands), not at all to Bavaria.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 29 14:49:38 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 07:49:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.29 (02) [A/D/E]
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From: Liza du Plooy <lizaduplooy at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (02) [E/Italian]


Middag almal

Mark het geskryf:
"We say, 'Geen sant in sy eie land.' It is a straight quote from the Bible,
&
the English says, 'A prophet is not without honour, except in his own
country.' Jesus was quoting a Jewish expression.

In Afrikaans 'sant' means saint, but it is rarely used. We have a preference
for 'heilige', as we do for all terms & roots of Teutonic origin.
However, the application of the expression is fairly loose. A young man may
be held in great respect, except in his own household, & if he notes this,
someone will quote that at him.
There are many such words in Afrikaans that survive only in 'old saws', like
this. Another is 'ros en ruiter', meaning 'horse & rider', though the ag
Afrikaans for 'horse' is 'perd' "

As kind het ek altyd gedink die spreekwoord lui "geen sand in sy eie land"
en was vasoortuig dat dit na mense in die reënwoude verwys. Dit was 'n
redelike ontnugtering toe ma my verduidelik het dat dit sant met 'n t is.
:-)

I've never heard the expression "ros en ruiter" myself that I can remember,
but I do of course know the word "roskam" which I knew had something to do
with a horse. According to my (horrible) Afrikaans/English dictionary:
Roskam (W) : currycomb (horse); criticise severely.
Of course now I am tickled to know what the word for horse is in other
lowlands languages!

Liza du Plooy

----------

From: Liza du Plooy <lizaduplooy at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (11) [E]


Denis wrote:
"In Danish the Garden is a "have". In Dutch we have the expression " ze
vetrokken met have en goed" , meaning "they left for an unknown destination,
taking with them everything which was valuable for them. The word have as
such is not used anymore. Only in this expression."

Running with the idea that gardens are safe and enclosed places, would the
Afrikaanse word "hawe" (harbour) be related at all?

Liza du Plooy

----------

From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (08) [D/E]

>From: GoodbyColumbus at aol.com <GoodbyColumbus at aol.com>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (07) [D/E]
>
>In a message dated 7/28/04 3:54:27 PM Central Daylight Time,
>lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net writes:
>
>  If I am not mistaken, English "guard," "ward," and "warden" also come
from
>  the same root as "garden" and "yard."
>
>Yes, but by way of Old French "guarder" (garder), Old North French
'warder',
>both of Teutonic origin.
>
>Here's another etymology I found, Old French 'gardin' (F. jardin), of
>Teutonic origin as well.

yard, garden, hort- are from IE 'gher' to grasp, enclose.  ward, warden,
guard, guardian are from IE 'wer' percieve, watch out for.

David Barrow

----------

From: Mari Sarv <mari at haldjas.folklore.ee>
Subject: "Etymology"

> From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
> Subject: etymology
>
> Hi Lowlanders,
>
> In dutch there is this expression : "geen sant in eigen land", meaning
> "no one is a prophet in his own country".
> The word "sant" is fascinating. I know that in Swedish, "det är sant" ,
> means, "it is true".
> Can anybody refer me to other words in other Lowland languages that
> might contain the same stem or have the same meaning?
>
> Denis Dujardin
> West-Flanders

In Estonian "sant" (<LS) means 'people who are going around in
*st*-martins and st-catherins eve ("mardisant", "kadrisant") and on other
similar occasions; they are singing and dancing and *getting some food* in
each house'.But in other days it means 'beggar', most commonly 'crippled'.

Mari Sarv

----------

From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (11) [E]

About Boom-gaard or Orchard. I have to make a correction.
Our Orchards in Flanders are mainly with hedges. Originally with hawthorn:
later and now mainly with privet (Ligustrum).
This is not necessaraly the main typology of orchards. They might also be
"open" of course.

Does anybody allready have a reference about "lochting", which is more
widespread then Westflemish?

Denis Dujardin

----------

From: HALLS Haeng-Cho <zzhhalls at student.uq.edu.au>
Subject:


I'm wondering if that word lochting is somehow related to the German word
Lichtung in the sense of a `clearing' in a forest?

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Etymology

Beste liëglanners,

Another interesting word for "garden" is the popular Flemish term
"lochting", "lochten" < Middle Dutch "lochtuun" ~ older English "leighton",
Old English "lēac-tūn". Litterally the word means "look-tuin" (D),
"leek-town" *s*. De Vries says that "look" (ranging from allium to garlic to
chives) was held in high regard, according to old Norwegian runes.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: Wim <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (12) [D/E]

From: wk at home.nl  wim verdoold, zwolle  nl

Hoi allemaal,

over gaarrde, tuin , hof   wat me te binnen schiet, ik zag dat russisch
genoemd werd...het  russische woord voor  stad is....Grad...   en dat
sluit weer aan bij gaarde.
En het noorse woord voor boerderij?  Ik zag in noorwegen vaak bordjes
met gardstun staan als de weg langs een boerderij liep.

Tuin zaun town, tüün, tuin, en in het ijslands, bestaat het woord ook
weer.

Hartelijke groeten uit Zwolle,

Wim.

http://members.home.nl/wkv/index.html

---------

From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (12) [D/E]

About "gard". We cannot forget metionning the famous traditional Swedsih
fence called the "Gärdsgard", sounding like a pleonasm (guarding the
garden.......).
See it at  www.abo.fi/~mabjork/ bakgrundsbilder.htm    for its newer version
and on     www.roslagen.nu/ handelser.html    for its more older traditional
form.

Denis Dujardin
West-Flanders.

----------

From: Markus Haverkamp <mjhaverkamp at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (05) [E]


"yard" seems to be a dialect varient of "garden". These words are, however,
not of the same root as "ward" and "guard". Of the latter two words, the
former is of German origin, whereas the latter is a formerly French
loan-word that was brought into the English language through the Normans.

Markus

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Etymology

Folks,

As you can see, a lot of etymologizing action greeted me this morning as I
was opening my mailbox.  It's so nice to hear some of the more rarely heard
voices!  (Dag, Liza! Tere, Mari!)

And a special _Willkamen_ and _Moin_ to you, Markus, a new subscriber!
Great to see you participating already (and doing everything correctly,
including not leaving out the subject ...).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 29 15:22:46 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:22:46 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.29 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUL.2004.082246.0700.>

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From: Hugo Zweep <hugo.zweep at valuersillawarra.com.au>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (12) [D/E]

Peter and Ron
After all that, all I can say is "struth" or even "strewth" since the
spelling, from my observation, seems to be optional.

You will notice that I use the word "struth" as an exclamation of surprise
which is the only way I have ever heard or used it.

Regards
Hugo Zweep

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Yeah, Hugo, I think "Strewth!" is predominantly, if not only, used as an
expression of surprise these days.

Another thing, folks:

I'm wondering about place names occurring in idiomatic expressions.  Here is
an example from Lowlands Saxon (Low German): _na Holland (gaan)_ (<na
Holland (gahn)> "to go to Holland") or _na Rötterdam (gaan)_ (<na Rötterdam
(gahn)> "to go to Rotterdam") meaning 'to die'; e.g., _dey sünd al lang na
Holland/Rötterdam_ 'they have been dead for a long time'.

I am not sure if it is just a replacement expression for 'to die', thus
avoiding the dreaded word, or if it is considered somewhat irreverant by
some.  It does not actually sound vulgar to me the way "to kick the bucket"
or "to bite the dust" would sound to me.  It just seems like one of those
"colorful," fanciful expressions.

My theory is that in the limited thinking of the olden days "Holland,"
especially the coastal regions of the Netherlands, seemed like really
far-away places, far-away yet reachable.  Hollanders had settled in the
Saxon-speaking Eastern Netherlands and Northern Germany (as far as to the
Baltic states then), and they were seen as people from far away.  There was
active trading and communication between the regions, as well as migration
back and forth (and the Jewish communities of the regions routinely
intermarried, later to start communities in Scandinavia as well).  So even
less educated people knew of "Holland."

I also wonder if the said expression started off as meaning 'to be gone',
'to have disappeared' (i.e., someone or something that goes far away is
assumed to be never seen again, as all emigrants were at the time and as
they still are to many traditionally-geared European minds).

Does any of you have any new spin on this?  Perhaps you can think of related
expressions or of other types of expressions in which place names are used
(in which case I would be most interested in Lowlands place names, since I
always love to find out about older connections within the Lowlands).

Thanks and regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 29 16:42:49 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:42:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.29 (04) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUL.2004.094249.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Literature

[English below]

Leve Leeglanders,

Jüst is mi künnig worrn, dat de Freudenthal-Pries för nedderdüütsche
Litteratuur 2004 an Silke Mansholt geiht för ähr Gedichtzyclus "heel
worden".  För ähr is dat dat twede Maal; se harr den Pries al 1997 krägen.
Silke Mansholt hett 'n basig Kunsttalent.  Se schrifft Gedichten (düütsch,
oostfreessch nedderdüütsch, un ingelsch), komponeert, danzt, inszeneert un
is 'n "performance artist".  Se hett in England studeert un wahnt upstääd'
in Brighton, nääm se in de Kunstszene arrig aktiew is.

Kiekt maal hier:
http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/page.cfm?objectid=12686617&method=full&siteid=50061

Silke Mansholt is för de nedderdüütsche Litteratuur 'n wichtige neje Figuur,
nich bloots wieldat se jung (33) is.

De twede Pries geiht an Jan Glas uut Grönnen (Groningen).  Ik freih mi, dat
na d'n Gellerlanner (Gelderlander) Henk Krosenbrink (2001) 'n Schriever vun
de neddersassischsprakigen Oostnedderlannen mit an d'n Drücker keem, un ik
dank de Freudenthal-Sellschupp daarför, dat se us Lüüd' vun de annere Sied
vun de Grenz mit up de Tell hett.

De drüdde Pries geiht an Birgit Lemmermann uut Ünnerstedt (Unterstedt) bi
Rothenborg an de Wümm (Rothenburg/Wümme) in Neddersassen, Düütschland.

Een Sünnerpries geiht an Ilse Hahn uut Spröötz (Sprötze) in de Noordheid',
Neddersassen, för ähr Vertellen œver 'n Bessarabien-Düütsche.  Ilse Hahn is
mien Möösch, de Fro vun mien jüngsten Vadderbroder Fredie.

Gratulatschoon an all de Winners in d'n Naam vun Lowlands-L!

Ji findt mehr œver d'n Freudenthal-Pries up een vun mien Nettsieden:
http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/low-saxon/plattewelt.htm
http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/low-saxon/freudenthal.htm

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

***

Dear Lowlanders,

Just now I found out that the Freudenthal Prize for Low German (Lowlands
Saxon) Literature 2004 has been awarded to Silke Mansholt for her group of
poems entitled _heel worden_ ("becoming whole/healed").  It is her second
time; before this she had received the prize in 1997.  Silke Mansholt is
incredibly gifted.  She writes poetry (in German, Eastern Friesland Lowlands
Saxon, and English), composes music, dances, produces and is a performance
artist.  She studied in England and currently lives in Brighton, being
active in the local artistic scene.

For example, read about her here:
http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/page.cfm?objectid=12686617&method=full&siteid=50061

Silke Mansholt is an important new figure for Low German literature, not
only because she is young (33).

The second prize went to Jan Glas of Groningen.  I am pleased to see that
another writer of the Lowlands-Saxon-speaking Eastern Netherlands has been
honored after Henk Krosenbrink (2001), and I thank the Freudenthal Society
for including our folks from west of the border.

The third prize was given to Birgit Lemmermann of Unterstedt near Rothenburg
on Wümme in Lower Saxony, Germany.

A special prize was awarded to Ilse Hahn of Sprötze on the North Heath,
Lower Saxony, for her story about a Bessarabia-German woman.  Ilse Hahn
happens to be my aunt, the wife of Fredie Hahn, my father's youngest
brother.

Congratulations to all winners in the name of Lowlands-L!

You can find more about the Freudenthal-Preis at one of my websites:
http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/low-saxon/plattewelt.htm
http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/low-saxon/freudenthal.htm

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 29 20:21:51 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:21:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.29 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUL.2004.132151.0700.>

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.29 (03) [E]

Ron wrote:
> Does any of you have any new spin on this?  Perhaps you can think of
related
> expressions or of other types of expressions in which place names are used
> (in which case I would be most interested in Lowlands place names, since I
> always love to find out about older connections within the Lowlands).

Well, there are many such expressions in German, and they're very probably
the same in the local version of Lower Saxon.

Most prominently, in Southern Lower Saxony, a person whose dead or a thing
that is lost or broken is "über'n Deister" or, in Platt, "över'n Deister".
The "Deister" is a low mountain range just south of Hannover, and east of
the Weser river.

Then, of course, there's the universal "über'n Jordan", meaning dead.

Then there's "ab nach Kassel" (a largish town in Northern Hesse), meaning
"get thee off to Kassel", or: "get lost!".

Then there's "ab nach Rostock" (a suburb of Göttingen) and "ab nach
Wunstorf" (north of Hannover), and probably several more; those place names
indicate where the nearest psychiatric clinic is, in the sense of "you're
crazy - go get yourself checked in!".

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.29 (03) [E]

Dear Ron,

Subject: Etymology

> I'm wondering about place names occurring in idiomatic expressions.  Here
is
> an example from Lowlands Saxon (Low German): _na Holland (gaan)_ (<na
> Holland (gahn)> "to go to Holland") or _na Rötterdam (gaan)_ (<na
Rötterdam
> (gahn)> "to go to Rotterdam") meaning 'to die'; e.g., _dey sünd al lang na
> Holland/Rötterdam_ 'they have been dead for a long time'.

I wonder now if we are now wandering into the realm of myth? However, is it
not true that some Northwest European Teutones attributed to the Abode of
the Dead a location in the West over the Sea?
I remember reading somewhere the old tale that some families that fished the
North Sea had another burden, & a fisherman might be summoned at night to
ferry a passenger, or more, sometimes many more than his boat should
support, to some shore across the water. & he would beach on a strand that
was not there in daylight, his passengers disembark, & leave him to return
home, in far less time than would be the case if he had crossed over to
Norfolk, for example.

& then again, could this be a punning or alliterative euphemism? _na Heiland
(gaan)_

Yrs,
Mark

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Thanks, Gabriele and Mark!

Gabriele:

> Most prominently, in Southern Lower Saxony, a person whose dead or a thing
> that is lost or broken is "über'n Deister" or, in Platt, "över'n Deister".
> The "Deister" is a low mountain range just south of Hannover, and east of
> the Weser river.

Actually, I have heard this saying used farther up north as well, and I
always wondered what this Deister thing was, not making the connection ...
duh.

We also say _över d'n dyk_ (<över'n Diek>) literally "over/across the dyke,"
but I believe this is used more in the sense of escaping or of being lost,
such as _hey is över d'n dyk_ (<He is över'n Diek>) 'he
disappeared/escaped'.  Does anyone know if you can use it to mean
'disappear' in reference to things, and if it, too, can mean 'to die'?

> Then there's "ab nach Kassel" (a largish town in Northern Hesse), meaning
> "get thee off to Kassel", or: "get lost!".

Yes, I know that one too.

> Then there's "ab nach Rostock" (a suburb of Göttingen) and "ab nach
> Wunstorf" (north of Hannover), and probably several more; those place
names
> indicate where the nearest psychiatric clinic is, in the sense of "you're
> crazy - go get yourself checked in!".

In Hamburg we (used to?) say the same with Ossentoll/Ochsenzoll (lit.
"Ox(en)-Toll"), a part of town that used to house the most important mental
health institution.  (Does it still?)  It's still where the most important
health care and research clinics of all sorts are.  (Isn't the university
hospital there?)  One of our sayings was _Ossentoll röppt_ / _Ochsenzoll
ruft_ "O. is calling" when we considered someone to be "over the edge" or
just about to "flip."

Mark, more fanciful than ever yet charming as always:

> & then again, could this be a punning or alliterative euphemism? _na
Heiland
> (gaan)_

Now there's a thought!  Or more archaically, _nâ deme Heliande (gân)_.

:-)

Groete,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 29 20:25:57 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:25:57 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.29 (06) [E]
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From: Frédéric Baert <baert_frederic at CARAMAIL.COM>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.29 (02) [A/D/E]

Denis wrote :
>Does anybody allready have a reference about "lochting", which is more
>widespread then Westflemish?
>
>Denis Dujardin

Hi
I'm sorry to participate so few but I'm very busy before holidays.
In the case of the world garden in french west flemish, my father says (I
think) "een hove", but, and it will interest you Denis, my mother only
says "een lofting". In this case, the switch of "f" to "ch" between vowel
and dental consonnant(typical of flemish and Dutch) did not happen in my
dialect. As you, I would be very curious to know the etymology of this word.

Frédéric Baert

----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.29 (02) [A/D/E]

Beste Liza en Almal,

Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

> Of course now I am tickled to know what the word for horse is in other
> lowlands languages!

Seconded!
& is it true that the Germanic 'pfard, paard, perd' goes back to the
Military Latin 'paraverada'?

> "leek-town" *s*. De Vries says that "look" (ranging from allium to garlic
to
> chives) was held in high regard, according to old Norwegian runes.

Well, this explains the first half of the name of that worthy British 'town'
or could it be 'thorp', 'Leighton Buzzard' now, what about the second half?

Die Uwe, met
Kind greetings,
Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 29 20:27:22 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:27:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Ethnica" 2004.07.29 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUL.2004.132722.0700.>

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From: Ben J. Bloomgren <godsquad at cox.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (11) [E]

Dennis and all, you have mentioned the Teutonic origins of certain words in
this discussion. From where did the Teutonic people come? Were they from the
lowlands?

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 29 20:50:09 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:50:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.29 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUL.2004.135009.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Talking about _Heliand_ (just now under "Idiomatica"), the Old Saxon poetic
Gospel version of 830, there is a most splendid web presentation by the
Bibliotheca Augustana here:
http://www.fh-augsburg.de/~harsch/germanica/Chronologie/d_saec09.html

As you can see, there is another Old Saxon work accessible there: the Old
Saxon Genesis version.

On the Old Saxon Genesis page there is a link to yet another Old Saxon work:
the Old Saxon tanslation of the Old English Genesis version, with a link to
the actual Old English version it was translated from!  It's very, very
handy indeed for all of us who would like to compare English and Saxon of
that time.

The site comes with pictures of fragments of the original documents with
links to the transliterated versions.  Very nice!

The Heliand with very a handy clickable English glossary machine can be
found here:
http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/texte/etcs/germ/asachs/heliand/helia.htm

Enjoy!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 29 20:52:28 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:52:28 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Mythology" 2004.07.29 (09) [E]
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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.29 (05) [E]

Mark Dreyer wrote:
> I remember reading somewhere the old tale that some families that fished
the
> North Sea had another burden, & a fisherman might be summoned at night to
> ferry a passenger, or more, sometimes many more than his boat should
> support, to some shore across the water. & he would beach on a strand that
> was not there in daylight, his passengers disembark, & leave him to return
> home, in far less time than would be the case if he had crossed over to
> Norfolk, for example.

Actually, basically the same story exists about the ferryman who was
summoned at night to take the "little folk" away from the island of Rügen in
the Baltic Sea. Can't quite remember why that exodus took place; maybe it
was the coming of Christianity (although I doubt it).

Gabriele Kahn

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 29 22:46:52 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:46:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.29 (10) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUL.2004.154652.0700.>

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From: Ben J. Bloomgren <godsquad at cox.net>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.29 (03) [E]

Among my friends we have an expression for the unsaid part of the body. My
friends call it the "Antarctic winter," as it is not wise to be in
Antarctica during the winter. It also refers to the relation between things
in the south for which we say "down." I'm trying to tread lightly here, and
I hope that I am not confusing you.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Hey, Ben!

Thanks.  I'll award you two Lowlands-L prizes today: one for your sincere
endeavor to tread lightly (which is always appreciated), and one for
cryptograph description.  Whatever "things" you are talking about, I hope
that others on the List will have an easier time than I deciding what it is
you are talking about.  ;-)

Cheers!
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 29 22:48:56 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:48:56 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.29 (11) [E]
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From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.29 (06) [E]

>From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.29 (02) [A/D/E]
>
>Beste Liza en Almal,
>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology"
>
>>Of course now I am tickled to know what the word for horse is in other
>>lowlands languages!
>
>Seconded!
>& is it true that the Germanic 'pfard, paard, perd' goes back to the
>Military Latin 'paraverada'?

They all come from 'pardus' meaning brown or tan

David Barrow

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 29 22:50:41 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:50:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.29 (12) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUL.2004.155041.0700.>

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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: Phrase Origin

In the course of my work today, I came across a quaint phrase which set me
to wonderin' just where it came from.  From it's structure, I'm thinking
it's from the lowlands.

The context is that someone was presented with a direct question which
called for a direct answer, but the person began to "hem and haw," i.e.,
began to nervously answer with facts that weren't applicable to the
question, or tried to change the subject.  What's the origin of "hem and
haw"?

Mark Brooks

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 30 15:13:13 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:13:13 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.30 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUL.2004.081313.0700.>

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From: Douglas G. Wilson <douglas at nb.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.29 (11) [E]

> >& is it true that the Germanic 'pfard, paard, perd' goes back to the
> >Military Latin 'paraverada'?
>
>They all come from 'pardus' meaning brown or tan

The latter does not seem to be the usual story. Is there documentation?

Wherever I've seen this etymology (including the OED, and Buck's IE synonym
book) the ancestral word was Latin "paraveredus" meaning something like
"extra post horse" > French "palefroy", Spanish "palafrén" (supposedly
influenced by "freno" = "bit"), English "palfrey", etc., also > German
"Pferd", Dutch "paard", etc., and English "prad".

I'm not familiar with "pardus" except meaning "panther" or so.

Latin "veredus" = "post horse" is itself said to have been probably from a
Celtic origin.

-- Doug Wilson

----------

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.29 (12) [E]

Mark Brooks wrote:
> The context is that someone was presented with a direct question which
> called for a direct answer, but the person began to "hem and haw," i.e.,
> began to nervously answer with facts that weren't applicable to the
> question, or tried to change the subject.  What's the origin of "hem and
> haw"?

Actually, I had always assumed that those are the noises a donkey (or a
mule) produces before he makes up his mind.... or before he REALLY starts to
bray... I used to have two donkeys, so I should know... :-)

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: ezinsser at icon.co.za <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.29 (12) [E]

Hi all,

Mark, I suspect the "hem and haw," derives from exactly the same origin from
which the Afrikaans, as in: "Hy't om die storie ge-hmm en ge-hah", and
indicating the way people behave when being put on the spot.

Regards
Elsie Zinsser

----------

From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.29 (12) [E]

> From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
> Subject: Phrase Origin
>
> In the course of my work today, I came across a quaint phrase which set me
> to wonderin' just where it came from.  From it's structure, I'm thinking
> it's from the lowlands.
>
> The context is that someone was presented with a direct question which
> called for a direct answer, but the person began to "hem and haw," i.e.,
> began to nervously answer with facts that weren't applicable to the
> question, or tried to change the subject.  What's the origin of "hem and
> haw"?
>
> Mark Brooks

Is it not merely imitative of the sounds of coughing and clearing the
throat, associated with someone who is being hesitant or indecisive, or
equivocating?

Kevin Caldwell (kcaldwell31 at comcast.net)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Folks,

The closest Lowlands Saxon (Low German) equivalent of "to hem and to haw"
(i.e., to make sounds like "hmm ..." and "haw ..." when one has been put on
the spot) is _druksen_ (<drucksen> ['drUksn]); e.g., _As sey em vröyg', daar
druks hey man bloots in eynssen tou_ 'He just kept hemming and hawing when
she asked him'.

Does anyone know the origin of _druksen_?  It doesn't seem to be
onomatopoetic as English "to hem and to haw" and for instance LS
_hachpachen_ 'to pant' are.

By the way, Old Saxon has _hėngist_ and _hros_ ~ _hors_ for 'horse'.

_Hėngist_ has become _hingst_ in the modern dialects, with the specialized
meaning 'stallion' (as also German _Hengst_), via Middle Saxon _hing(i)st_.
This is supposed to go back to Germanic *_hangista(z)_ from Indo-European
*_k^ǝk-_ ~ *_k^āik-_ ~ *_k^īk-_ 'to jump', 'to frolic'.

I am not aware of _hros_ ~ _hors_ having survived (like archaic or poetic
German _Ross_).  Is anyone else?  It is supposed to go back to Germanic
*_hrussa(m)_ and eventually Indo-European *_k^ers-_ 'to run'.

The ordinary generic word for 'horse' in Modern Lowlands Saxon is _peyrd_
(<Perd>, <Peerd>, <Pierd>, etc. [pE.I3`t] ~ [pi:3`t], plural _peyrd'_
<Per(d)>, <Peer(d)>, <Pier(d)>, etc. [pE:I3`(d)] ~ [pi:.3`(d)]).  I cannot
find an ancestor in Old Saxon.  Can anyone else?

A curious development in the North Saxon dialects with which I am most
familiar is that there is no basic word for a female horse, the equivalent
of "mare," the German cognate of which is _Mähre_, usually denoting an
inferior horse.   Old Saxon has _marh_ as a rarely used word for 'horse'.
In Modern LS I say 'mare' (female horse) as _valen-peyrd_ (<Fahlenpeerd>
['fQ:lnpE.I3`t]), literally "foal(ing) horse."

Thanks and regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 30 15:50:25 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:50:25 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.30 (02) [A/E]
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUL.2004.085025.0700.>

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From: Ben J. Bloomgren <godsquad at cox.net>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.29 (10) [E]

The things are the private parts of the body.

----------

From: ezinsser at icon.co.za <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.29 (05) [A]

Dag almal,

Ja, behalwe Mark Dreyer se 'Gaan na die Heiland', is daar natuurlik ook die
"Gaan na die
hel".

Hier is ander:
"Hy behoort in Groendakkies" - 'n psigiatriese hospitaal naby Pretoria (die
dakke is nou
dalk rooi geverf maar die naam bly sit).

"Hulle gaan nou Mauritius toe" - 'n uitdrukking binne ons familie vir die
nouveau riche
wat nou dinge wil doen.

"Baai toe gaan" - dit verwys na Port Elizabeth as geliefde vakansie plek vir
Ooskapers en
nou ook in Khsa "eBayi".

Groete,
Elsie Zinsser

----------

From: Utz H. Woltmann <uwoltmann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.29 (05) [E]


>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Idiomatica
>
>We also say _över d'n dyk_ (<över'n Diek>) literally "over/across the
dyke,"
>but I believe this is used more in the sense of escaping or of being lost,
>such as _hey is över d'n dyk_ (<He is över'n Diek>) 'he
>disappeared/escaped'.  Does anyone know if you can use it to mean
>'disappear' in reference to things, and if it, too, can mean 'to die'?
>
Moin Ron,

there is another idiom in LS: "över den groten Diek"  literally "over
the great pool" with the meaning of "over the sea" or "across the
Atlantic" or "to America".

for 'to die' I have never heard these idioms but the following:
"na güntsiet", "de Reis, de geiht na günt", "de grote Reis antreden",
"op de anner Siet gahn", "över´n Deister gahn".

Kumpelmenten
Utz H. Woltmann

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Moyen, Utz, Leeglanners!

Thanks, Utz.  Let me just explain a couple of things to others on the List.

> "na güntsiet", "de Reis, de geiht na günt", "de grote Reis antreden",
> "op de anner Siet gahn"

So it's literally "(to the) beyond" and "the journey (going/leading)
beyond," "to start on the long journey," and "to go to the other side," i.e.
"to cross over."

> there is another idiom in LS: "över den groten Diek"  literally "over
> the great pool" with the meaning of "over the sea" or "across the
> Atlantic" or "to America".

Folks need to realize the ambiguity of _dyk_ (<Diek> [di:k]) here.  It is
really *two* words: (1) 'dyke' (German _Deich_) and (2) 'pond', 'pool'
(German _Teich_).  What is meant usually is clear in context, not here
though, I'm afraid, as you can see in cases of idiomatic expressions.  While
_över d'n (groten) dyk_ ("across the (large) _dyk_") in the sense of
"Atlantic" is clear, _över d'n dyk_ ("across the _dyk_") in the sense of
"away," "disappeared" and "absconded with" doesn't seem all that clear to
me.

The meaning of _dyk_ as "pond" is relatively clear -- I think -- in the
following idiomatic expressions:

aanten vun d'n dyk vlayten
<Aanten vun'n Diek fleiten>
("to whistle [= call] ducks from the _dyk_")
'to make a vain effort', 'to do something for naught'

Vlayt de aanten vun d'n dyk!
<Fleit de Aanten vun'n Diek!>
("Whistle [= call] the ducks from the _dyk_!")
'Leave me alone!', 'Get lost!', 'Go fly a kite!'

aanten över d'n dyk setten
<Aanten över'n Diek setten>
("to take ducks across the _dyk_")
'to do something superfluous', 'to waste time', 'to behave like a fuss
budget', 'to stall'

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 30 15:51:49 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:51:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.30 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUL.2004.085149.0700.>

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.29 (08) [E]

Beste Ron,

Subject: Resources

Thanks, Reinhard. This will keep me busy a long time.

> Talking about _Heliand_

Die Uwe,
Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 30 16:24:18 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:24:18 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.07.30 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUL.2004.092418.0700.>

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: Names

In Dooghe, De Clovis �  Charlemagne, 2000, MCD, Wattignies,  ISBN
2-912886-04-X (in stock in both the Furet and the Fnac in Lille) I found p
50-51 a list of names in franconian form (Merovinger times), followed by
medieval and modern French forms.

I didn't realise so many French names are (eventually) of Franconian origin,
nor do I understand all roots as e.g. "chrod"(?) and "gar"(?) for finally
"Roger".

Question:
Are similar (Low-)Saxon roots very much different from the Franconian roots?
Thanks for all comments.

Regards,
Roger

Annex: p. 50-51 as referred to above:

CORRESPONDANCE DES PRINCIPAUX
NOMS-PRENOMS MEROVINGIENS

FORME germanique FORME médiévale FORME moderne

MER-WIG    MEROVEE     x
MER-BALD   MEROBAUD    x
CHLOD-WIG   CLOVIS    LOUIS-LUDOVIC
CHLOD-BALD   CLODBALD    x
CRLOD-MER   CLODOMIR    x
CHLOD-HAR   CLOTAIRE    LOTHAIRE

CHLOD-WULF   CLODULPRE    x
CHLOD-FRIED   CLODFRIED    LEUTFRIED

CHLOD-RIC   CLODERIC    x
CHLOD-GAR   CLODGAR    LEGER
CHLOD-BERT   CHILDEBERT   LIBERT
CHILD-RIC   CHILDERIC   LIDERIC
CRILD-WALD   HILGAUD    HELGAUD
CHILD-WIN   HILDUIN    HELUIN
CHILP-RIC   CHILPERIC    x
THEUD-RIC   TREODERIC   THIERRY
TREUD-BERT   THEODEBERT   THIBERT
THEUD-BALD   THEODEBALD   THIBAULT
THEUD-MER   TREODEMER    x
HAR-BERT   CHARIBERT   HERBERT
HAR-RIC   CHARARIC   GUERRIC
WAR-MUND   PHARAMOND    GUERMOND

DAG-BERT   DAGOBERT    x
SIEG-BERT   SIGEBERT    x
SIEG-MER   SIGISMER    x
SIEG-RAM   SIGRAND    x
SIEG-FRIED   SIGEFROY   x
HAI-MO    HAYMON    AYMON
HAI-MUND   RAYMOND    RAYMOND
HAIM-RIC   BENRIC    HENRI
RAD-WULF   RADULF   RAOUL

CHROD-GAR   RODGAR    ROGER
CHROD-BERT   RODBERT   ROBERT
CHROD-LAND  RODLAND   ROLAND
CHROD-WULF  CHRODULPHE  RODOLPHE
CHROD-RIC   CHRODERIC  RODRIGUE
ADAL-RARD  ADALICAIRE  ALARD

ADAL-GISIL  ALDGISI   x
ADAL-RIC  ADALRIC   ALRIC
ADAL-HELM  ALLEAlJME   x
ADAL-BERT  ADALBERT  ALBERT
ADAL-WULF  ADALOLPHE  ADOLPHE
ADAL-BALD   AUTBALD   OLIBA
LAND-RIC   LANDRIC   LANDRY
LAND-BERT  LAMBERT   LAMBERT
RAGN-WALD  RAGENWALD   x
RAGN-RARD  RAGNACAIRE  REGNIER
                                                     RAINIER
RAGN-RIC  RAGNERIC   x
RIC-MER   RICIMER   x
RIC-HARD  RICHARD   RICHIER
                                      RICHARD
ARN-WALD  ARNOULD   ARNOULD
ARN-WULF  ARNULF   ARNOUL
INGEL-BERT  INGBERT   ANGILBERT
INGEL-RAM  INGRAM   ENGUERRAND

WALD-BERT  WAUDBERT  GAUBERT
WALD-LAND  GALLAND   GALIND
WALD-HER  WAUTMER  GAUTHIER
WALD-FRIED  GAUDFROY  GODEFROI

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Hi, Roger!

> nor do I understand all roots as e.g. "chrod"(?) and "gar"(?) for finally
> "Roger".

Indo-European:
*kar(ǝ) + ĕ[h]aiso

Germanic:
hrōþa + gaiza(z)

Old Saxon:
hrōth + gêr

Old German:
*ruod? + gēr

Old Low Franconian:
*rōt* + --

Literally:
"fame(d) + spear"

Roger, Rüdiger, Rudger, etc. tend to be assumed to have denoted renouned
spearing skills, either given on the basis of such skills or because such
skills were desired.

By the way, the English cognate of the word for 'spear' is "gare" (< Old
English _gár_), also found in the words "garfish" (a fish with a spike as
its nose) and "garlic" (< OE _gárléac_ "spear leek").

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 30 17:21:20 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:21:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.30 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUL.2004.102120.0700.>

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From: Stella en Henno <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.30 (01) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology

[knip]
> By the way, Old Saxon has _hėngist_ and _hros_ ~ _hors_ for 'horse'.
>
> _Hėngist_ has become _hingst_ in the modern dialects, with the specialized
> meaning 'stallion' (as also German _Hengst_), via Middle Saxon
_hing(i)st_.
> This is supposed to go back to Germanic *_hangista(z)_ from Indo-European
> *_k^ǝk-_ ~ *_k^āik-_ ~ *_k^īk-_ 'to jump', 'to frolic'.
>
This is in West Frisian "hynder" (= horse) from "*hingst-diar" (diar meaning
animal)
and "hynst" [hi:~st] (nasalised long i) = stallion. The Terschelling/Skylge
dialect
preserves "hos" (< hors), with usual metathesis (as is common in many
Frisian varieties)
The words for horse in North Frisian is "ha"ngst" or "haingst" in Mooring,
"hingst" in Fering and Amring and So"lring, while Halunder has "hings"
(common -t deletion after s in that dialect),
while Saterlandic has "hoangst" or "houngst" (depending on the village).

> I am not aware of _hros_ ~ _hors_ having survived (like archaic or poetic
> German _Ross_).  Is anyone else?  It is supposed to go back to Germanic
> *_hrussa(m)_ and eventually Indo-European *_k^ers-_ 'to run'.
>
Like I said, I only know "hos" on Terschelling and "ros" in Dutch (not a
very common word anymore, though).

> The ordinary generic word for 'horse' in Modern Lowlands Saxon is _peyrd_
> (<Perd>, <Peerd>, <Pierd>, etc. [pE.I3`t] ~ [pi:3`t], plural _peyrd'_
> <Per(d)>, <Peer(d)>, <Pier(d)>, etc. [pE:I3`(d)] ~ [pi:.3`(d)]).  I cannot
> find an ancestor in Old Saxon.  Can anyone else?
>
Me neither. Low Saxon dialects in the Netherlands have "peerd" (or a
spelling variation thereof) and so have Hollandic dialects and Dutch-Frisian
mix-dialects like Stedsk/Town-Frisian.

> A curious development in the North Saxon dialects with which I am most
> familiar is that there is no basic word for a female horse, the equivalent
> of "mare," the German cognate of which is _Mähre_, usually denoting an
> inferior horse.   Old Saxon has _marh_ as a rarely used word for 'horse'.
> In Modern LS I say 'mare' (female horse) as _valen-peyrd_ (<Fahlenpeerd>
> ['fQ:lnpE.I3`t]), literally "foal(ing) horse."
West Frisian has "merje", Dutch has "merrie", and these are normal words
(not archaic or something like that).

> Thanks and regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

Groetnis

Henno Brandsma

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 30 17:31:44 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:31:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.07.30 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUL.2004.103144.0700.>

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From: Szelog, Mike <Mike.Szelog at citizensbank.com>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.07.30 (04) [E]

Would Roger then, be more or less the "modern" rendition of the Anglo Saxon
"Hrodhgar" (as in the poem Beowulf)?!

Mike S

Ron wrote, in part:
-
Old Saxon:
hrōth + gêr

Old German:
*ruod? + gēr

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Mike (above):

> Would Roger then, be more or less the "modern" rendition of the Anglo
Saxon
> "Hrodhgar" (as in the poem Beowulf)?!

I assume so, Mike, though I hadn't even made the connection.  Thanks.

For instance:


320
   Hroðgar maþelode,         helm Scyldinga:
   "Ic hine cuðe         cnihtwesende.
   Wæs his ealdfæder         Ecgþeo haten,
   ðæm to ham forgeaf         Hreþel Geata

375
   angan dohtor ...

320
   Hrodhgar, Helmet of the Scyldings, replied,
   "I knew him well from our boyhood days.
   To his father, named Ecgtheow,
   Had Hrethel the Geat given

375
   His only daughter ...

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 30 18:52:13 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:52:13 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.30 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUL.2004.115213.0700.>

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From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.07.30 (04) [E]

>By the way, the English cognate of the word for 'spear' is "gare" (< Old
>English _gár_), also found in the words "garfish" (a fish with a spike as
>its nose) and "garlic" (< OE _gárléac_ "spear leek").
>
>Regards,
>Reinhard/Ron

And perhaps in 'to  gore'  =  to pierce

David Barrow

----------

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.07.30 (04) [E]

Ron wrote:
> By the way, the English cognate of the word for 'spear' is "gare" (< Old
> English _gár_), also found in the words "garfish" (a fish with a spike as
> its nose) and "garlic" (< OE _gárléac_ "spear leek").

Even more important: the old German word for a spear is "Ger", and that's
what the Word "German" means: "Spear-Man".

This is also behind names like:

Gerhard
Gerfried
Gertrud
Gerlinde
Gerhild
Gernot

etc.

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Gabriele:

> > its nose) and "garlic" (< OE _gárléac_ "spear leek").
>
> Even more important: the old German word for a spear is "Ger", and that's
> what the Word "German" means: "Spear-Man".

"More important"?! Pullease!  What can be more important than garlic?

Just checking,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 30 21:12:15 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:12:15 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.30 (08) [E]
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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.30 (02) [A/E]

Hi all

I also remember the expression in German "Er ist über die Brücke" meaning
that the person in question belongs to the gay fraternity.

Regards
Elsie Zinsser
 >such as _hey is över d'n dyk_ (<He is över'n Diek>) 'he
>disappeared/escaped'.  Does anyone know if you can use it to mean
>'disappear' in reference to things, and if it, too, can mean 'to die'?

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Elsie:

> "Er ist über die Brücke"

i.e., German for "He's across the bridge."

I've never heard this one before and assume it's an offshoot of _vom anderen
Ufer_ "from the other bank/shore."

Having a slightly disparaging flavor, I expect this kind of expression to be
fading away now, at least in some circles ... or so I'd like to hope.

I like to think of bridges as connections rather than as divisions.

Groete,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 30 21:15:50 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:15:50 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.30 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUL.2004.141550.0700.>

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.30 (07) [E]

Ron wrote:
> > Even more important: the old German word for a spear is "Ger", and
that's
> > what the Word "German" means: "Spear-Man".
>
> "More important"?! Pullease!  What can be more important than garlic?

Hmmm... I could tell you, but my reputation is already bad enough... most of
which is your fault, I'm sure... :-)

The "importance" rating was strictly based on frequency of word use. I
wouldn't dream of cooking without garlic, rest assured.
So why is it called "Knoblauch" in German, and "knoflook" in Dutch? Where
does the "knof/Knob" part come from, and what does it mean?

Gabriele Kahn

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 30 23:39:57 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:39:57 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.30 (10) [E/German]
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUL.2004.163957.0700.>

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From: Gustaaf van Moorsel <gvanmoor at aoc.nrao.edu>
Subject: Etymologie

Gabriele wrote:

> So why is it called "Knoblauch" in German, and "knoflook" in Dutch? Where
> does the "knof/Knob" part come from, and what does it mean?

I found the link below but do not know how reliable it is.
It relates 'knob' and 'knof' with Eng 'clove'.

<http://www-ang.kfunigraz.ac.at/~katzer/germ/generic_frame.html?Alli_sat.htm
l>

The related Leek is clearly underrated here in the US.  I can
usually find them in the supermarket but have to tell the check-
out person what it is.  Same for endives.

Groeten,

Gustaaf

----------

From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Etymologie


Henno wrote:

"The Terschelling/Skylge dialect preserves "hos" (< hors), with usual
metathesis ...".

In Lancashire dialect (and in the dialect of Yorkshire too) the word for
'horse' was _os_ [Written _hoss_ or _oss_, but with silent _h-_ ]. The word
has largely died out, but I still occasionally hear the word _os_,
especially from people living in rural areas. When I was a child I remember
references to _th' 'obby 'oss_ , 'the hobby-horse'. I suppose a
'hobby-horse' strictly speaking was a wooden horse's head on a stick that a
morris dancer fastened round his waist; in my time, though, this word
referred also to a rocking horse ( a kind of child's toy).

Interestingly enough, this word _oss_, and _obby oss_ are not confined to
the north of England. There is a traditional ceremony in Padstow, Cornwall
(in the extreme, until relatively recently Celtic-speaking south west) on
Mayday involving the _'obby 'oss_.

The only word I recall being used in Lancashire dialect for a female horse
was _mare_, the pronunciation of which was something like [mo":R] ( as if it
had a German long o-Umlaut, and a very full r-sound, somewhat like the final
American -r in some dialects). Exactly the same pronunciation would be used
for _mayor_ of a town, and I often used to hear the same word used as a
diminutive form of the name _Mary_.

John Duckworth
Preston, UK

----------

From: HALLS Haeng-Cho <zzhhalls at student.uq.edu.au>
Subject:

Man darf nicht vergessen, daß wir das Wort 'Stute' für ein weibliches Pferd
verwende :)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Haeng-Cho wrote above that in German _Stute_ (related to "stud") denotes a
female horse.

Which reminds me of a case of _Patentplatt_ (i.e., Lowlands Saxon (Low
German) made up on the basis of German) in which someone referred to female
horses as _Stuten_ (singular _Stuut_).  As far as I know, there is no such
LS word for female horses, _falen-peyrd_ (<Fahlenpeerd>) being an authentic
one.  A _stuut_ ([stu:t], plural _stuten_) is a sweet type of bread, a
coffee cake, or a sweet bun, some sort of dessert bread.  (Isn't there also
Dutch _stoet_ [same pronunciation] in this sense?)  It occurs in several
compounds, such as _stutendag_ 'holiday'.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Jul 31 00:23:51 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:23:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.30 (11) [A/E]
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From: John Baskind <jbaskind at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.30 (09) [E]

Gabriele het gesê:

>So why is it called "Knoblauch" in German, and "knoflook" in Dutch? Where
>does the "knof/Knob" part come from, and what does it mean?

Is it possible that the 'knob' refersw to nothing more than the knobby shape
of the garlic head?

(Ons sê knoffel in Afrikaans)
Groetnis,
John B

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul  1 16:06:49 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:06:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.01 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUL.2004.090649.0700.>

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From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.06.30 (05) [E]

I am sorry about Jean Duvivier. But he doesn't at all get the point
where this is all about in Belgium.
If you live in an area where you know people have been speaking a
certain language for ages.
The suddenly a generally more wealthy class comes to live in the rural
settings of your village and they do not want to adapt to the local
language, because they take it for granted that their language has to be
understood everywhere (which means the clear depreciation of the local
language), then I consider this as a pretentious invasion of people who
want to impose THEIR social attitude to the people where they immigrate,
refusing to learn the other language as a form of the so called courtoisie.
In Belgium it has allways been the other way up. We as Flemish are
generally bi-lingual. The Walloon or Brussels French spoken people (the
latter is changing) considered dutch as an ugly useless language, so why
would they learn it? (Allthough it is spoken by 22 million people in
Europe: is that a small language?????)
This has nothing to do with a difference of dialects as Jean Duvivier
quotes. It has nothing to do with helpfullness towards tourists. This
mentality of everything changing into English should at first be
explained to those who refuse to speak or learn another language
whatsoever. In the outskirts of Brussels you find countless people of them.

denis dujardin
vlaanderen

----------

From: jean duvivier <duvassoc at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.06.30 (05) [E]

Hi Ron,

I am afraid I did not express myself properly. Recognizing the legitimacy of
people of different regions wanting to retain their local language or
dialect, my point was that this should not be a first language for children
to learn, otherwise they will be left out of major activities in the world
we live in. As a second language if they so desire, why not.
However, I have detected an excessive emphasis placed on the local language
being the most important. This is partly a political issue, and all too
often , a manufactured one, to the detriment of the people themselves,
One can have two or more languages in use. For instance Switzerland. They
even have a fourth, Romanche, in a small valley. But all the Swiss I have
ever met spoke usually French and/or German but dealt with foreigners in
English.
We can remember the various attempts in the past 200 years to artificially
construct an international language, for instance Esperanto. But this was
artificial and did not become widely accepted.
I have no particular love for English of any kind, although I learned it and
know it well. But in the increasingly interactive and interconnected world
we live in, a single language that can be used widely is a benefit to
society. English  is happening anyway from necessity and ease of use,
whether one likes it or not.
My point about the local languages was not to disparage them but to keep a
sense of balance and not get carried away.
Thank you for your comments.

Dank U wel. Vielen Dank. Merci beaucoup. Muchas gracias. Muito obrigado.
Mille grazie. Ephaisto. Shukran. Domo arigato.

John

----------

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: "Language use" [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn
> Subject: Language use
>
> In such cases I can see "activists" (preferably many of which come from
> various walks of life with which other speakers can identify) playing the
> role not only of language assertion agents but also of moral support
agents,
> convincing the defeatist average speaker that the language *is* worthy of
> status and preservation, and that its extinction is *not* inevitable.

I don't think activists of any kind actually manage to do this.

I also don't think the average language speaker is defeatist either. They're
not trying to achieve anything in the first place because they don't see the
point. Defeatism would be if you wanted to achieve something and gave up.

The question "What can we do to make Scots speakers speak Scots?" used to be
asked amongst Scots activists but I think most of them (or at least the ones
that have been around long enough) have accepted that you can't _make_
anyone speak it.

Activists appeal to government, education boards, broadcasting companies and
so on for more recognition of the language, or provide more resources such
as disctionaries (the old SNDA), grammars (Colin), literature (me :) or
everything (Andy). What they don't do is appeal to language speakers to
"speak the language more". This wouldn't work because in the Scottish
Lowlands, for example, most speakers speak the language all the time at home
and amongst friends and relatives, but would feel like a fish out of water
doing this with people in the streets and in shops. They're already speaking
it in every situation they feel comfortable with and to get them to speak it
in the shops, you would have to raise the status of the language in their
eyes (or lower the status of the shopkeeper :)

Successful language activism consists of appealing to (or setting up)
organisations that are capable of raising the public profile of the
language, ie, capable of raising its status. If this is done well, then the
speakers of the language may take up on it at some critical mass.

Even if language activists could _make_ people speak the language, it
doesn't mean it would change the fortunes of the language. A few centuries
ago almost every native of the Scottish Lowlands spoke Scots, but that
didn't mean it was considered suitable for use in schools, nor in print,
unless the orthography made it look like a dialect of English.

A language can be spoken by everyone in a country, but that doesn't mean it
has high status.

As I said before it's all about status. This is what makes someone decide on
which language they want passed on to their children, spoken in public
situations &c.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language use

Hi, guys!

Thank you for your interesting responses.

Jean:

> Recognizing the legitimacy of
> people of different regions wanting to retain their local language or
> dialect, my point was that this should not be a first language for
children
> to learn, otherwise they will be left out of major activities in the world
> we live in. As a second language if they so desire, why not.

Why as a *second* language and not as a first, as a native language, being
their ancestral language, the language of their parents and of their
forebears?  Why would it have to be relegated to second or lower rank and
the non-native language of the state or of some state conglomeration be
imported into the home as the overriding one?  Simply because the home
language is nationally and internationally considered insignificant by
certain people?  Should it not be the family's language that comes first and
the language of the state second where they are not the same?  It tends to
be native languages that are utilized in language arts.  Does this mean that
after a while we'll have poetry, shortstories, novels and songs only in a
handful of languages in the world, eventually to be whittled down to English
only (as it has been in rock and pop music already)?  Apparently the
frequently offered argument that children who grow up with two or more
languages are held back educationally does not hold water.  On the contrary:
while there may or may not be some initial delay, bi- or multilingual
children, on the whole, have been known to do better in the long run, to
have "a leg up" on monolingual children.

Does it mean that now, that the number of the European Union member states
has increased again, the people of Malta, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania,
Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Slovenia and Greek
Cyprus should stop teaching their children Maltese, Estonian, Latvian,
Livian, Lithuanian, Polish, Kashubian, Czech, Slovak, Rusyn, Hungarian,
Romanian, Gagaus, Slovenian, Croatian, Yiddish and Romany because these are
"insignificant" in the great scheme of things, should just adopt English (or
French or German if they must) and be done with it, though they can still
have grandma and grandpa teach the kiddies some ditties in the old and soon
to be forgotten languages?   And what about some of the "older" member
states?  Should Danes, Swedes, Finns, Dutch, Italians and Greeks just "get
with it," because their languages fall into the same "insignificant"
category, leave alone the minorities in their countries (Rom, Jutes,
Faeroese, Kalallisut, Skanians, Saami, Low Saxons, Limburgers, Frisians,
Zeelanders, Tatars, Karelians, Albanians, Catalans, Corsicans,
Franco-Proven?als, Slovenians, Croatians, Friulians, Ladins, Occitans,
Sardinians, Bayuvarians, Bulgarians, Macedonians, Arumansh (Romanian) and
Turks), and the minority languages of the EU states with the more
"significant" languages English, French, Spanish, Portuguese and German
(Romany, Cornish, Gaelic, Irish, Welsh, Scots, Shelta, Basque, Catalan,
Galician, Breton, Flemish, Occitan, Italian, Asturian, Miranda do Douro,
Hungarian, Croatian, Slovenian, Danish, Frisian, Lowlands Saxon, Polish and
Sorbian)?

Again: interregional and international language(s) is/are definitely needed.
But does this mean that linguistic (and cultural) diversity needs to be
sacrificed to that end?

Sandy:

> Even if language activists could _make_ people speak the language,
> it doesn't mean it would change the fortunes of the language.

I wasn't suggesting that they could or should.  I totally agree that
speakers can only be motivated to use of and loyalty to low-prestige
languages by means of creating incentives.  This includes raising language
profile, prestige and pride, including also the development of language arts
with broad appeal.

Again, thanks for sharing, guys!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

==============================END===================================
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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul  1 17:33:06 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 10:33:06 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2004.07.01 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUL.2004.103306.0700.>

======================================================================
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From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Administrativia

Dear Lowlanders,

A number of people have joined us since my last administrative message (June
16), and I would like to welcome them on everyone's behalf.  At the end of
this message you will find a list of their places of residence.

Please, please, pretty please, read and understand the rules and guidelines,
folks!  It's really important.

Rules and Guidelines:
Dutch: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=regels
English: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
German: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=regeln-de
Limburgish: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=regele
Lowlands Saxon (Low German): http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=regeln
Russian: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules-ru

Even some people who have been with us for a while persistently ignore the
following rules:

(1) Keep subjects separate:
     Only one topic per posting!

(2) Stick to the subject title:
     Do not change the topic name in your responses.
     Just stick with the one we have, even if you think
     it doesn't apply or is silly.  I will change it if I think it
     needs to be.

(3) Edit quotes:
     If you hit the "reply" button and simply write your response before
     or after an unedited, complete quoted LL-L issue, please do not
     complain to me that I have removed the quoted text in the published
     version.  It is proper email behavior to quote only the portions that
are
     relevant to your response.

(4) Give credit:
     Let us know who the authors of quoted text portions are.
     If you just hit the "reply" button, it will automatically give
     "Lowlands-L" as the author.  That will not do.  You must be
     more specific, and you owe authors the courtesy of
     crediting them by name.

As our long-standing members will attest, I very rarely come down hard on
people, very rarely "throw the book" at them.  Needless to say that "very
rarely" does not mean "never."  I will in fact do so if someone keeps
breaking these rules consistently despite reminders, especially if I get the
distinct impression they do so on purpose, to provoke me in a "passive
agressive" fashion (which has happened).  I do know that some of you have
only very rudimentary computer and emailing skills.  That is all right,
quite a different matter.  I can work around that, still encourage you to
muster the courage to share your thoughts, knowledge and questions (also if
you think your "technical" and language skills are wanting).


TEMPORARY ABSENCE
Before you take a trip or for some other reason need to stop LL-L mail
arriving for a given length of time, please write to us
(lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net) to let us know the date you want mail to be
stopped and the date you want mail to be resumed. As some of our members can
attest, this has been working really well, certainly beats the old, crude
method of signing off and on again. Once in a while people find themselves
unsubscribed without notice. Some of them immediately suspect the worst:
that I have "booted them out" for some infraction or other. (I know this for
sure only about those that contact me.) Please do not jump to this
conclusion unless you have received prior reprimands and warnings (which has
occurred very rarely, not at all for well over one year). If you find
yourself disconnected from Lowlands-L, the reason is most likely that the
automated server has unsubscribed your address because of repeated
"bouncing," i.e., because your mail servers keep informing the list server
that you cannot be reached or is filled above quota. Most of the time this
is due to temporary disconnection. Sometimes the reason is that a
subscriber's junk mail filter (or "spam" filter) has not been "told" to
exempt Lowlands-L mail, which is why our mailings do not arrive in your
inboxes. So, if Lowlands-L mail stops coming, please first check your "spam"
filters and adjust them if necessary, and only contact me about the problem
if all of the above fails. Should you indeed be disconnected, please write
to me or resubmit an application
(http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=subscription). I'll be more than
happy to bring you swiftly back to the fold.

Again, dear Lowlanders, thanks for your support and cooperation and for all
those interesting contributions past and future!

Regards,
Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
Founder & Administrator, Lowlands-L
lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
http://www.lowlands-l.net

***

Places of Residence of New Lowlanders since June 16, 2004:



     Australia:
          New South Wales:
               Newcastle [1]
     Austria (?sterreich):
          Vienna (Wien):
               Vienna (Wien) [1]
     Belgium (Belgi?, Belgique, Belgien):
          Western Flanders (West-Vlaanderen]:
               Izegem [2]
     Germany (Deutschland):
          Berlin:
               Berlin [1]
     Malaysia:
          Selangor:
               Kajang [1]
     Netherlands (Nederland):
          Northern Holland (Noord-Holland):
               Amstelveen [1]
     Panama (Panam?):
          Panama (Panam?):
               Panama (Panam?) [1]
     Philippines (Pilipinas):
          Manila:
               Makati City (Bayan ng Makati) [1]
     Romania (Rom?ni?):
          Bucarest (Bucure?ti):
               Bucarest (Bucure?ti) [1]
     United Kingdom:
          England:
               Lancashire:
                    St. Helens [1]
          Northern Ireland:
               County Down:
                    Newtownards [1]
     United States of America:
          Pennsylvania:
               Exton [1]
               Pittsburgh [1]

==============================END===================================
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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul  1 17:42:35 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 10:42:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.01 (03) [E/Gaelic]
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUL.2004.104235.0700.>

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From: Gaidheal <gaidheal at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.01 (01) [E]


Latha math, a Lowlanders:

I've just finished reading a book called "Spoken Here" by Mark Abley. As
many of you probably know, it's about endangered languages and discusses
some problems with bringing them out of the emergency room and back home, if
you'll allow me that metaphor. He suggests as one of the problems to be
overcome is not to make people speak the language- not to institutionalize
it as the Irish government has unfortunately done to Irish Gaelic -but to
make them want to speak it. This is the hard part, finding a way to make the
language trendy and popular. You've got to get radio, TV, websites - you
have to modernize the language. All languages need this. And unfortunately,
in this globalized world (sounds redundant, doesn't it?) it's hard to get
corporations to do translate what's necessary.
One solution is open-source software. It's a beautiful idea, and any small
language can translate an open-source operating system. It could be done for
any of the Lowlands languages, any language that can write in the Latin
alphabet, and many that can't.
Anyway, that's the gist of what I'm getting from skimming these e-mails -
that you're discussing why people won't speak their languages. It's because
of a combination of factors, some too local to be spoken of broadly. But I
think it's a thinking their language is insignificant and unhelpful: that's
why parents won't pass it down to their children.

Beannachdan,
Uilleam ??g mhic Sheumais

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language use

'S math sin!  M??ran taing, a Uilleam!

It might be helpful to assumedly many of our members if you or someone else
(perhaps our open-source champion Kenneth) briefly explained what
"open-source software" is, also what its potentials are.

Mar sin leibh an dr? sda!

Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul  1 19:21:34 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 12:21:34 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.01 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUL.2004.122134.0700.>

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From: Andy (Scots-Online) <andy at scots-online.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.01 (03) [E/Gaelic]

Uilleam ?g mhic Sheumais wrote:

> I've just finished reading a book called "Spoken Here" by Mark Abley. As
> many of you probably know, it's about endangered languages and discusses
> some problems with bringing them out of the emergency room and back home,
if
> you'll allow me that metaphor. He suggests as one of the problems to be
> overcome is not to make people speak the language- not to institutionalize
> it as the Irish government has unfortunately done to Irish Gaelic -but to
> make them want to speak it. This is the hard part, finding a way to make
the
> language trendy and popular. You've got to get radio, TV, websites - you
> have to modernize the language. All languages need this. And
unfortunately,
> in this globalized world (sounds redundant, doesn't it?) it's hard to get
> corporations to do translate what's necessary.
> One solution is open-source software. It's a beautiful idea, and any small
> language can translate an open-source operating system. It could be done
for
> any of the Lowlands languages, any language that can write in the Latin
> alphabet, and many that can't.
> Anyway, that's the gist of what I'm getting from skimming these e-mails -
> that you're discussing why people won't speak their languages. It's
because
> of a combination of factors, some too local to be spoken of broadly. But I
> think it's a thinking their language is insignificant and unhelpful:
that's
> why parents won't pass it down to their children.

It helps if the language is part of everyday life. If it is confined to the
home and close acquaintances the 'power' langaugae soon replaces it. For
example Gaelic in the highlands and islands. I have no Gaelic. If I decided
to move to A Gaelic speaking area I could get by fine without it. All
institutions, workplaces etc. operate in English. I would be under no
compulsion to acquire Gaelic. As an outsider the locals are obliged to
occomodate me linquistically - not the reverse. Interesting that the
Government accepts Gaelic language proficiency as an alternative to English
when aliens are granted citizenship. Why not demand is a requirement to move
to (or remain in) Gaelic speaking areas - Economic arguments no doubt make
that one a non-starter. (Gaelic is off-list I'm juist using it as an example
of Lesser-used vs power language)

Andy Eagle

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul  1 22:16:37 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:16:37 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.07.01 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUL.2004.151637.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language use

Folks,

Perhaps we really should have a Frequently Asked Question webpage, since
certain questions just keep on coming.

The following question arrived from a non-subscriber:

<quote>
W. Schrobilgen (ddwines at yahoo.ca, from Canada) wrote:
Is the Luxemburgian language not part of the Low-German/Lowlands language
group?
Why does the Luxembourg\'s native language not fall into this grouping?
</quote>

Answer:
Quite some time ago, the membership of Lowlands-L decided to in its area of
consideration Limburgish, although, technically speaking, it has one foot,
or just a couple of toes, outside the Lowlands-range language varieties,
beginning to transition over to Central/Middle German (e.g., _ich_ vs. _ik_
for 'I').  Limburgish is still predominantly Low Franconian.  Luxembourgish,
on the other hand, is clearly Central/Middle German, belonging to the
Moselle range of Franconian dialects, having gained language status only
because it is predominant in a country and thus received official status.
It is very similar to the Rhenish-Franconian German dialects of Germany.
For this reason, the members of Lowlands-L decided not to officially include
Luxembourgish, though Luxembourgish, like other German dialects and Yiddish,
is frequently mentioned in discussions.

Examples of cognates:
1=English 2=Dutch 3=L.Saxon  4=W.Frisian  5=Limbg. 6=Luxb. 7=Germ.
1 path  2 pad  3 pad  4 paad  5 paod  6 Pad  7 Pfad /pfaad/
1 pole  2 paal  3 paal  4 peal  5 paol  6 Pal  7 Pfal /pfaal/
1 apple  2 appel  3 appel  4 apel  5 appel  6 Apel  7 Apfel /apfel/
1 open  2 open  3 apen  4 --  5 aope  6 offen  7 offen
1 cup  2 kop  3 kop  4 kop  5 k?p  6 Kop  7 Kopf
1 sleep  2 slaap  3 slaap  4 sliep  5 sjlaop  6  7 Schlaf /?laaf/
1 up  2 op  3 op~up  4 op  5 op  6 op 7 auf
1 tide  2 tijd  3 tied  4 tiid  5 tied  6 Z?it /tseit/ 7 Zeit /tsait/
1 let  2 laten  3 laten  4 (fer)litte  5 loate  6 loossen  5 lassen
1 eat  2 eten  3 eten  4 ite  5 aete  6 iessen 7 essen
1 water  2 water  3 water  4 wetter  5 water  6 waasser  7 Wasser
1 out  2 uit  3 uut  4 ?t  5 oet /uut/  6 aus  7 aus
1 foot  2 voet /fuut/  3 vout /fout/  4 foet /fuut/  5 voot /foot/  6 Fouss
7 Fu? /fuus/
1 heart  2 hert  3 hart  4 hart  5 herte  6 H?erz /herts/  7 Herz /herts/

So...

1,2,3,4,5, 6: p-   =   7: pf-
1,2,3,4,5, 6: -pp-   =   7: -pf-
1,2,3,4,5,6: -p   =   7: -pf
1,2,3,4,5: -p-   =   6,7: -ff-
1,2,3,4,5,6: -p   =  7: -f

1,2,3,4,5: t-   =   6,7: ts-
1,2,3,4,5: -t-   =   6,7: -ss-
1,2,3,4,5: -t   =   6,7: -ts
1,2,3,4,5: -t   =   6,7: -s

As you can see from the above, in the second group (old /t/), an partially
in the first group, Luxembourgish (not unlike Yiddish) falls with German in
a separate category based on the absence or presence of "High German shift."

I hope this clarified it.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul  1 22:18:33 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:18:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.01 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUL.2004.151833.0700.>

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.01 (01) [E]

> From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
> Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.06.30 (05) [E]
>
> The suddenly a generally more wealthy class comes to live in the rural
> settings of your village and they do not want to adapt to the local
> language, because they take it for granted that their language has to be
> understood everywhere
> We as Flemish are
> generally bi-lingual. The Walloon or Brussels French spoken people (the
> latter is changing) considered dutch as an ugly useless language, so why
> would they learn it?

Hello,

I have a different perception of this. Let me start saying that I do
projects all over Belgium, Northern France and in the South of the
Netherlands. Momentarily I'm involved for several months in a reorganization
project for a company at Brussels airport. Before I did a project in the
headquarters of Belgian Mail (downtown Brussels) and last year I did the
start-up of the TDS plant at the Southern outskirt of Brussels for supplying
preassembled parts to the Volkswagen Brussels plant. I have no formation in
sociology, nor in political science, but I have been recruiting, training
and helping to develop hundreds of people in this area as part of new
start-ups or change projects. My humble perception is a bit different.

A Over time

In the mid seventies I regularly participated in commission work for
standardization of gear wheel and belt transmissions at the offices of the
Belgian Standardization Commission BIN-IBN. (I was member as delegate of
Volvo Car Sint Truiden, and I represented Belgium at the ISO standardization
meetings in Bad D?rkheim, in 1978 I think it was). At that time, when
holding a meeting in Brussels, it was judged polite to hold the meeting in
French, since Walloons did not understand Dutch. So one could have meetings
fully in French with 19 Dutch speakers and one 1 French speaker. I remember
that at one of these meetings we realized we were holding the meeting in
French with Dutch speakers only.

Things have changed though:

In larger organizations and companies in the Brussels area, staff has to be
bilingual while operators may be monolingual French or Dutch speaking. It
practically means we have a downward pull in choice of the spoken language.
The supervisor adjusts to the language of the operator and not vice versa.

Between equals, people speak their own language each.

When taking for example the mechanics at Brussels airport, I'm working with:
while each mechanic speaks his own language, technical vocabulary is shared.
- For car parts one generally uses, as in the dialects, French terminology:
"jante" and not "velg", "embrayage" and not "koppeling".
- For airport equipment one generally uses English terminology "push back
tractor, towing bar, shear bolt" etc. or trademarks as "Goldhofer" for a
German nose-lifter-tower.
This works very well, technical support intervention teams on the tarmac
generally consists of a pair mechanics, and quite often the two belong to
different language groups.

Walloon mechanics I'm familiar with come from as far East a the Waremme area
and as far West as the Tournai area. Dutch speaking mechanics I'm familiar
with come from East Flanders, Flemish Brabant and Limburg.
When I talk to these folks I speak Belgian Dutch and Belgian French:
They would find it extremely strange me using "jij / je" in stead of "gij /
ge".
They would find it extremely strange me saying "soixante douze" and not
"septante deux".
I guess in both cases I would not really be part of the group, but some kind
of a snob.

I never heard these Walloon people speak Walloon or Picard in Brussels.

Our mechanics of Flemish Brabant switch to a strong Brabantish coloration
when talking to each other, but this variant is easily understandable by
others. I heard a Limburgish mechanic suddenly switch from Dutch to
Limburgish yesterday when arguing emotionally with an aircraft engineer
around a mechanical problem when lifting a plane with separate hydraulical
jacks. Emotion clearly can provoke a language switch.

B ? Families

Since the North and the Brussels area are doing economically better than
parts of Wallonia, we have a drain of some Walloon people to the North.
People who migrated to the Brussels outskirts I?m familiar with speak French
and French only except for a few words of Dutch. I never had a feeling they
had a negative stance versus Dutch. They just do not understand the
political hassle. All Walloon immigrants I know, and it is quite some, send
their kids to the Dutch language schools in the municipalities in Flemish
Brabant where they live. As a rule they are quite proud their kids are
fluent in Dutch. This sending to Dutch language schools I even see happening
downtown Brussels with Italian, Armenian, ? immigration families, often
having some small business, and judging it is better for their kids to be
sent to Dutch language schools. I guess quite some people in the Brussels
still think the Dutch language system is better in forming bilingual people
than the French language education net is.

It is my opinion that the votes political defenders of French in the suburbs
of Brussels get, come to a large extent, not from people who resist speaking
Dutch, but from people refusing to loose the freedom of choosing their
language in private life. Over-killing in imposing Dutch hurts sentiments of
personal freedom and may have adverse effects.

C ? Immigrants

I?m personally more worried with the integration of immigrants in the
Brussels area.

Since they have quite some difficulties in finding decent jobs, they are
drained to low salary jobs as e.g. in distribution and logistics, often with
part-time contracts for reinforcing material handling crews at peak moments.
So one finds them e.g. in airport turnaround handling, e.g. stowing (often
overweight) luggage of passengers etc.

These kids (security screened for airport access) are often third generation
immigrants, born in Belgium and eventually have Belgian citizenship. What I
didn?t see before, but what?s rising rapidly, is their desire to affirm
their identity. Arabic language newspapers have been becoming quite popular
in the refreshment areas. The internal communication language in the groups
is becoming openly Arabic (or Berber language?)

I don?t know whether this is just a reaction to international events, or a
development into focused groups, with persistence of the language of their
grand parents.

Regards,

Roger

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul  1 23:34:03 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 16:34:03 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.01 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUL.2004.163403.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources


Dear Lowlanders,

During the past year or so I have been watching, with much gratification,
Scots reference books appearing on local bookstore shelves (here in
Seattle).  I was all the more "excited" (to use the word in the Americans
sense) to find a book *about* Scots in our University Bookstore this week!
Below please find a brief review, and please bear in mind that it is that of
a semi-informed, interested "outsider" who cannot vouch for the veracity of
all the information presented in the book.

Bibliographical Information:

     _The Edinburgh Companion to Scots_ edited by John Corbett,
     J. Derrick McClure and Jane Stuart-Smith, Edinburgh, Scotland:
     Edinburgh University Press (http://www.eup.ed.ac.uk), 2003,
     Paperback ISBN 0 7486 1596 2, Library of Congress Control
     Number: 2003501132; US $ 25.00, UK ? 16.99, EUR 27.90

Jacket description:

"A comprehensive introduction to the study of older and present-day Scots
language. The aim of the volume is to explain and illustrate methods of
research into Scots and Scottish English. Topics include the grammar,
vocabulary and pronunciation of contemporary speech in Scotland, and the
investigation of Older Scots written texts. There is further coverage of
issues such as modern literary Scots, language planning, placenames and
personal names, and the development of Scots overseas. Each chapter gives a
brief overview of the topic, and provides case studies to illustrate avenues
of exploration for those beginning to develop research techniques. The book
is designed as an accessible introduction to key issues and methods of
investigation for undergraduate students interested in the way language has
developed in Scotland.
     The editors, John Corbett, J. Derrick McClure and Jane Stuart-Smith,
lecture at the Universities of Glasgow and Aberdeen. They have all published
on the history, development and current status of Scots and Scottish
English."

Review:

Even a relatively cursory glance through this volume leads me to the
conclusion that it offers very useful background information to anyone
interested in Scots, from non-Scottish persons with a casual interest to
Scots speakers and academic researchers, including also those who focus on
the English language and need to acquaint themselves with delineations and
mutual influences between Scots, Scottish English and other varieties of
English.

The styles and language in which the information is presented on the whole
make it easily accessible even to the non-academic.

This is a collection of chapters about different aspects of Scots, written
by several authors, each chapter coming with its own list of recommended
reading:

* A brief history of Scots (John Corbett, J. Derrick McClure and Jane
Stuart-Smith)
As the title promises, the editors present the history of the language in a
concise fashion, and it sets the stage and tone for the following chapters.

* Scottish place-names (Margaret Scott)
In this chapter, Scots place-names are etymologized and categorized by
linguistic provenance.

* Scottish surnames (Carole Hough)
Surnames are presented by etymological categories: location, relationship,
occupation and nicknames.  Furthermore, there is a useful table of name
distribution.

* Studying Scots vocabulary (Caroline Macafee)
The Scots lexicon is analyzed, and issues of relations and overlaps with
Scottish English are discussed.  This includes useful sections on lexical
erosion and innovation.  Furthermore, the author presents lexical issues
from a variety of research field angles.

* Syntax and discourse in modern Scots (Jim Miller)
Syntactic features of Scots, their variety, levels and shifts are presented
and in part juxtaposed with English.

* The phonology of modern urban Scots (Jane Stuart-Smith)
Forms of and shifts in urban Scots phonology are explained on the basis of
what appears to be very thorough research, frequently presented in
juxtaposition with Scottish and British Standard English.

* The phonology of older Scots (Caroline Macafee : incorporating material by
the late A. J. Aitken)
This is an extremely useful article not only for the phonology specialist
but also for anyone interested in historical phonology generally, as well as
for anyone interested in pre-contemporary Scots literature.  Sound shifts
are clearly explained and presented.  A few samples of Old and Middle Scots
literature are presented in phonetic reconstruction.

* Corpus-based study of older Scots grammar and lexis (Anneli Meurman-Solin)
This chapter shows us how the method of corpus linguistics can help us to
reconstruct pre-contemporary Scots grammar and lexis.  Included is the issue
of work with electronic text corpora.

* The language of older Scots poetry (Jeremy J. Smith)
This is a fairly thorough introduction to various aspects of
pre-contemporary Scots poetic language modes: patterns of sound and grammar.

* The language of modern Scots poetry (J. Derrick McClure)
This chapter offers an overview of the development of Scots poetry, focusing
on its revival and then goes on to deal with more recent trends, including
experimental use of language.  It also deals with boundary issues between
Scots and English.

* The Scots language abroad (Michael Montgomery)
This chapter deals with Scots language use outside Scotland, dwelling much
on Northern Ireland, and then going on to mention evidence of Scots language
use in the earlier periods of European settlement in the United States.  It
also briefly deals with Scots in Canada and Australasia.  Regrettably,
explanations of the fate of Scots in other former British colonies and in
Scottish settlements in places like Prussia and Patagonia are not given.

* Language planning and modern Scots (John Corbett)
This chapter offers much food for thought, not only to those interested in
Scots.  It is particularly relevant to comparative situations in which
minority languages are closely related to the respective power languages.
It deals with reversing language shift, with the planning of status, corpus
and education/acquisition, and it also introduces avenues for research.

The book comes with a long reference list, not including online works (such
as those of some of our members), however.

I feel that this book ought to be recommended as background reading to
anyone who deals with the Scots language.  Furthermore, to various degrees
it is of relevance to anyone who deals with minority language issues,
especially with cases in which there is or is perceived to be no clear
dividing line between a minority language and the power language that
overshadows it (in our area of interest for instance the case of Lowlands
Saxon ["Low German"] under both Dutch and German dominance in the Eastern
Netherlands and Northern Germany).

Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
Founder & Administrator, Lowlands-L
lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
http://www.lowlands-l.net

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul  2 14:26:16 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 07:26:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUL.2004.072616.0700.>

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Language use

Beste li?glanners,

I've been living for decades on the outskirts of Brussels now (and
working in Brussels) and I fully subscribe to Roger's point of view
regarding the language situation in Brussels. I couldn't have described
it better myself.

Flemish language activists demand extreme respect for their language
(for example, they would like to enforce anybody moving to Flanders to
speak Flemish within a certain amount of time)...however...if they
themselves are moving to Lapland, Albania, Kamchatka or Madagascar for
that matter, very few of them will master the local language within that
same short amount of time. Sure, they will learn any language that is
considered more "powerful" than their own native Flemish, but not so
much if that language is held in low esteem. Clearly a case of double
standards.

Point is, how on earth can any language activist hope to get respect
from any "power-language" speaker (French, English, Chinese, Spanish...)
if he doesn't pay tribute himself to all the other (even) lesser known
languages?

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.01 (06) [E]

This is the Flemish problem. The up-side-down chauvinism.
There are several bilingual Walloon towns and villages, where Flemish
minorities
have theoretical rights to claim their administration in their language.
They are bullied to an extreme extend. How dare they ask for language rights
in a
French spoken area?
So, I have no respect for French speaking people who claim their right for
freedom if they do not have the intention whatsoever to learn the local
language.

Put me in Saoudi-Arabia and I will speak Arabic in a short while.
Frenchspeaking people in Brussel live on an island surrounded by
Dutch/Flemish
speaking area.
They are surrounded by an area where a language is spoken, which could as
well be
Swahili.
I live in Europe and I speak 7 languages. So I can adapt everywhere in
Europe.
The French speaking people in Brussels who highhartedly refuse to learn
Dutch do
not have my respect at all.
This claim for freedom of language makes me laugh bitterly.

denis dujardin
flanders

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul  2 14:29:32 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 07:29:32 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.07.02 (02) [E/F]
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUL.2004.072932.0700.>

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From: stellahenno <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.07.01 (05) [E]

Fan Ron:

Examples of cognates:
1=English 2=Dutch 3=L.Saxon  4=W.Frisian  5=Limbg. 6=Luxb. 7=Germ.
1 open  2 open  3 apen  4 --  5 aope  6 offen  7 offen

4 moat w?ze: iepen [i. at pen], mei fallend twjil?d.

1 let  2 laten  3 laten  4 (fer)litte  5 loate  6 loossen  5 lassen

4: allinnich mar "litte", net "ferlitte" (ien ferlitte = to leave someone)

"foet" wurdt ?tsprutsen as [fu. at t] (dus wer sa'n twjl?d).

1 heart  2 hert  3 hart  4 hart  5 herte  6 H??erz /herts/  7 Herz /herts/

4 moat w?ze "hert" of "herte" (it l?ste is fer?lderjend), [hEt] of [hEt@]

Mei freonlike groetenis

Henno Brandsma

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul  2 14:59:58 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 07:59:58 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUL.2004.075958.0700.>

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From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (01) [E]

Let me put things clear. I am not a extreme language activist.
As I pointed out, I AM interested in learning other languages. I speak
and write French in an upmost degree. And I LOVE to speak it also.
I can not understand that some Flemish people tolerate, the lazyness (or
highharted mentality) of french-spoken people into the Flemish speaking
area.
I am sorry Luc, but your argument works against you.
I underlined that I speak 7 languages. French speaking people in Belgium
tend to speak only ONE, whereas most flemish ar bi-lingual.
So why the remark, that people moving abroad wouldn't be able to cope
with a local language, whereas the Brussels residents do not even know
or refuse to learn a language which surrounds them.
This has nothing to do with extremism, but with courtoisie or respect.
I remain convinced by the fact that people living in a city where the
outskirts speak another language ( -they are surrounded-), that the
least you can do, is to learn that language.
The other way up in towns like Mouscron shows how that works. How people
even get discriminated by asking their simple language rights.
Our Kings, Queens and princesses do not even speak the language of the
majority properly, whereas princess Maxima, being Argentinian,  in
Holland was able to do it in a short while.
So!??

denis dujardin

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul  2 18:48:00 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:48:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUL.2004.114800.0700.>

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From: Troy Sagrillo <meshwesh at bigfoot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (01) [E]

Hello all,

I would like to comment on some of the issues regarding Flemish activism,
etc. in Belgium from the perspective of an immigrant. First of all, I do not
live in Brussel or the region (and avoid it as much as possible), so my
views may or may not apply there. Also, I am an American who is here due to
marriage and not because of NATO, work for a multinational, etc. (those
types of expats tend to just learn a minimum of French and be done with it
since they will leave again eventually and are mainly in and around
Brussel).

As soon as I moved here, I enrolled in Dutch courses offered for free with
the Onthaalbureau of the city of Leuven. In addition to the gratis language
courses, I also attended a weekly course over life in Belgium, social
services, Flemish society, etc. However, before being allowed to attend, I
had to sign a contract agreeing to come at least 75% of the time and take
the final examination. I do not know what would have happened if I had not
done so.

This language course was 4 days per week, for 4 hours per day and lasted
about 3 1/2 months. After successfully passing it, the Onthaalbureau
facilitated my moving to an intermediate course elsewhere. These courses are
also free, but do require payment for the course materials. Other students
chose to go into more technical Dutch for a particular job sector, or to
take job training courses.

In addition to myself, there was another Yank, a Canadian, a number of
Eastern Europeans, Arabs (mainly North African and Iraqi), Turks, and Nepali
(Leuven has a very large Nepali population for some reason), raging in age
from about 18 to late 60s.

Similar programmes are available in Onthaalbureaus in major cities around
Flanders and are, from what I understand, being strongly promoted. The aim
is of course the acquisition of language skills, but also an understanding
of Flemish and Belgian society with the goal of integration. Job assistance
is also provided. They will even pay for babysitting so mothers can come,
give free bus passes to those without cars or bikes, and will teach people
to read if they can't. (Well, "free" at taxpayer expense.) Most of the
students were very grateful for all this, though of course there were some
who didn't see the point as they they knew French and/or English already.
They were there for a job requirement more than anything.

Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be> wrote:

> Flemish language activists demand extreme respect for their language
> (for example, they would like to enforce anybody moving to Flanders to
> speak Flemish within a certain amount of time)...however...if they
> themselves are moving to Lapland, Albania, Kamchatka or Madagascar for
> that matter, very few of them will master the local language within that
> same short amount of time.

I have to disagree. People with a "minority" native language moving to
another area with a language they don't know tend to learn at least a basic
level as quickly as possible because they have to. Those with a "majority"
language just assume everyone else will accommodate them (and they will be
accommodated in most instances too). I made the decision to learn Dutch as
soon as possible because I want to work and participate in Flemish society.
I would find it exceptionally rude to not do so. I wouldn't expect any less
of an immigrant to the USA with regard to English.

In my opinion, I think it boils down to the acceptance or not of the native
peoples as to how much they are willing to accommodate. In past years in the
USA, learning English was a requirement (a legal one I believe). Now that is
considered by various activist groups be racist and consequently there are
large numbers of immigrants (legal and illegal) who do not speak English and
have no intention of doing so. The legal requirement certainly is no longer
there. American society is now then forced to become bilingual or to
unfortunately marginalise the the immigrants.

denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be> wrote:

> There are several bilingual Walloon towns and villages, where Flemish
> minorities have theoretical rights to claim their administration in their
> language. They are bullied to an extreme extend. How dare they ask for
> language rights in a French spoken area?

On a related note, Brussel is officially bilingual. However, it has been my
experience that even officials of the federal government refused to speak
Dutch (and they certainly must have known it to be hired). In my particular
case, I had to have some paper work stamped by the Ministry of the Interior
before I was allowed to marry in Belgium. The clerk who was "assisting" me
and my fianc?e (who is Flemish) would not speak Dutch *at all*. Now if I had
been by myself I really would have been stuck since I don't know French.
Ironically I could have used English (not an official language), but not
Dutch. My wife just laughs about it and says "its just Brussel; ignore it"
but I found it incredibly disrespectful. It is one thing for a storekeeper
not to use Dutch, but not a government official conducting official
business.

All the best,

Troy

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language use

Troy, Lowlanders,

Here in my general work area there is a Belgian from Brussels.  He is of
Flemish background, and his first language is Flemish.  His wife is from
Antwerp and speaks Flemish and Belgian Standard Dutch, as he does.  Both of
them know French as a second language, besides English.

While he and his wife humor me when I want to converse with them in Dutch or
ask for help with Dutch, he has revealed to me several time that he firmly
believes that Dutch, including Flemish, Brabantish, etc., is a waste of
time, not only for foreigners to learn but in fact for Belgians to bother
with, and he has revealed his disdain for things Dutch and for the
Netherlands on many occasions, usually in a supposedly jocular fashion.

I can hear that he and his wife privately converse in Dutch/Flemish,
sometimes lapsing into English.  They do not speak Dutch to their three
children.  When I asked him why, he said that it was a waste of their time
and brain power.  Their children speak English as a first language.  Their
oldest daughter once expressed a desire to learn Dutch, because they often
visit Belgium, and their grandparents visit here, and she "just likes it."
He tried to talk her out of it, telling her that she would be better off
learning French and/or German.  (However, during a stay with her
grandparents she did manage to become moderately conversant in Dutch.)

By the way, as should be expected given what I have explained above, he
seems to regard my engagement regarding my ancestral Lowlands Saxon (Low
German) simply ludicrous.  His wife, on the other hand, said she finds it
"neat" that she and I can converse in our respective languages and
understand each other pretty well.  I don't really think this is
patronizing, because she seems to enjoy it and she is a generally
accommodating person (perhaps too accommodating as far as the education of
their children is concerned, if you ask me).

I do not know how representative this guy is for Flemish-background
residents of Brussels.  I can simply not understand how anyone can view his
own heritage with so much disdain.  (I have not even come across such an
extreme attitude of what almost seems like self-loathing among Israelis that
were born and raised in Germany.)  If this is not uncommon, the fate of
Flemish seems grim indeed, at least in Brussels, if disdain for and
disregard of it is not confined to French-speaking Belgians but has spilled
over to Flemish-speaking ones as well.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul  2 20:48:22 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:48:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUL.2004.134822.0700.>

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From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (04) [E]

So here we go again......
I wouldn't say that this desdain is typical Flemish, but some people have
this strange sort of attitude towards their own language.
I am not voting extreme-right, I am even strongly opposed to it, because
they manipulate the Flemish topic for their fascistoid aims,
but when you dare to express yourself, having a specific preference for your
language, you are treated suspiciously, in a way of being
extreme-right-nationalist. There are of course historical reasons that can
lead to this sort of connotation.
But when you are raised in a language, your thinking inherits a systematic
which influences your discourse.
You could call it part of your identity. This has nothing to do with ethnic
identity, which leads to awfull racism.
I call myself - quoting Geert Van Istendael, one of my favourite (even
left-winged) writers - a language-nationalist.
I am not ashamed to defend my language, which I consider as valuable an
equal to all other languages in the world.
The more languages, the more the difference and specificity in ways of
thinking.
This can only make the worl richer, enabling a confrontation of different
viewpoints.

But in Flanders there has allways been a strange thing going on.
Whe people go on Holliday to France for example and they see loads of French
banners, they do not bother
about the social or political background of this phenomenon. Yhe same
happens when you go to Scandinavia, where you see lots of Danish, Swedish
and Norwegian banners ornamenting houses and gardens.

When one dares to put a Flemish flag on their house, they are quite quickly
called nationalist (-extremist?-).
Flemish tend to dislike their identity, but there is ALLWAYS identity. You
cannot escape it.
The only way to express identity is language.
When you see European football teams, with different people of different
ethnic background, they at least will speak the language of the team they
are playing for.
I think this is a great thing, and it can wipe out that awfull ethnic
racism.

Therefore I only can congratulate Troy for his endeavour to learn the local
language.
This cannot be said for all those French spoken people who go and live there
and only want to speak one language.
Their own.

denis dujardin

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Language use

Beste Denis,

>I underlined that I speak 7 languages. French speaking people in
Belgium
>tend to speak only ONE, whereas most flemish ar bi-lingual.

I think you read my message too quickly.

I wasn't stating that Flemish expats don't try to learn another language
when living abroad, but merely that they will discriminate between
languages more "powerful" than Flemish (that they will indeed often try
to learn) and languages that in their opinion are less important than
Flemish (e.g. Lappish, Albanian, Yukaghir or Malagasy) that they would
rather not try to learn within one or two years time. When moving to
Flanders, native French speakers (unfortunately) regard Flemish in just
the same way as native Flemish speakers view Lappish, Albanian, Yukaghir
and Malagasy (when moving to Lapland, Albania, Yakutia or Madagascar).
Another example, how many Bulgarians will study Hawaiian if they decide
to move to Hawaii? I'm quite sure that most would rather opt for
English, knowing that they will get by on English.

Among the 7 languages that you speak Denis, is there any language that
has less speakers than Flemish has? See my point? I wasn't referring to
the number of languages that Flemish people can speak but rather to the
status of the languages they choose to speak.

I'm sure there's a psychological explanation for this.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (04) [E]

Ron wrote:

> I can hear that he and his wife privately converse in Dutch/Flemish,
> sometimes lapsing into English.  They do not speak Dutch to their three
> children.  When I asked him why, he said that it was a waste of their time
> and brain power.  Their children speak English as a first language.  Their
> oldest daughter once expressed a desire to learn Dutch, because they often
> visit Belgium, and their grandparents visit here, and she "just likes it."
> He tried to talk her out of it, telling her that she would be better off
> learning French and/or German.  (However, during a stay with her
> grandparents she did manage to become moderately conversant in Dutch.)

Now this is completely beyond me. How did those parents come by such an
"American" attitude (forgive me for using this stereotype, but that seems to
be such a widespread concept in the States - as in "taking Spanish instead
of German" in high school). Don't they know that the more languages their
children learn to speak fluently at a young age, the easier they will learn
even more when they're older? My children learned both German and Durch from
birth, and when we moved to the States, it took them about six weeks to
manage a fluent conversation in English (they were 7 and 5 then, the
youngest was born over there) - because they were used to "thinking" either
German or Dutch, and so they never tried to translate word for word, but
simply started "thinking" English. Sadly, I have met many, many people in
the USA whose parents were immigrants and never taught them their own native
languages. Except for Hispanic families, I recall only ONE case where the
other language was kept alive (I was thrilled to meet small children in
Oregon who spoke fluent Schwyzerd????tsch (Swiss German)!

Don't these parents know that letting a child grow up with a second language
(at least) means the gift of a whole new universe? Also, I find it very rude
to bring up a child who is unable to speak to its own grandparents - that
must be a heartbreaking experience for both sides! Good thing that little
girl semms to have more sense than both her parents.

Frankly, I wonder how much of this common attitude is a "power" issue - the
parents have a convenient way to speak to each other in front of the
children without being understood (or so they hope), AND they are making
sure that the children and grandparents can only have a relationship through
the controlling parents' interpretation.

Better stop before I'm getting all worked up... to me, depriving a child of
learning an alternative language, especially one that is spoken within the
family, is no less than a form of child abuse/neglect, even if there may be
well-meant motives lurking somewhere.

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language use

Gabriele:

> Now this is completely beyond me. How did those parents come by such an
> "American" attitude (forgive me for using this stereotype, but that seems
to
> be such a widespread concept in the States - as in "taking Spanish instead
> of German" in high school).

Again I hate to have to be the one who bursts your Gringo-grumble bubble,
Gabriele.

This person I am talking about, a man in his late 30s, is about as
"American" as a Tuareg, a Herero or a Samoyed.  After about 16 years of
residence in this country he has made hardly any attempt at cultural
adaptation, or at least accommodation, and frequently bewilders folks with
his seemingly excentric manners.  Besides -- I would say _?  l'europ??enne_ if
I were nasty and stereotyping -- he likes to rant to me, a fellow-European,
about the ills and evils of America and Americans, even though on several
occasions I have made it clear to him and to other fellow-Europeans around
here that I am not at all receptive to the bashing of Americans or of any
other ...ans and ...ers for that matter.  Furthermore, he does not plan to
remain in this country, often talks about returning to Europe, either to
Belgium or to Germany, excluding both France and the Netherlands as
unpalatable choices ...

> Sadly, I have met many, many people in
> the USA whose parents were immigrants and never taught them their own
native
> languages. Except for Hispanic families, I recall only ONE case where the
> other language was kept alive (I was thrilled to meet small children in
> Oregon who spoke fluent Schwyzerd????tsch (Swiss German)!

Again I appeal to you not to generalize on the basis of your experience in a
particular place in Oregon.  I know many American- and Canadian-born people
who are proficient in the languages of their immigrant parents, even
grandparents.  Perhaps this is somewhat more frequent in larger cities with
a diverse, liberal and tolerant base, especially here on the Pacific Coast,
where Asian and African languages tend to be handed down and this may
inspire other immigrants to do likewise; plus, there is a strong, proud
North European base in our area that keeps its cultural and linguistic
traditions as Americans.  I use Yiddish with second-and third-generation
American-born people, and only one of them could be loosely referred to as
"traditional" and "religious."  So, again, beware of generalizations!

Furthermore, it is a sad fact that many parents in Germany deliberately did
not teach their children their own native Lowlands Saxon (Low German),
Frisian or Sorbian, even *discouraging* them from learning and using those
languages.  This was not only so in my childhood years but I have heard of
similar situations *now*, where parents consider those languages, their
*own* languages, a waste of time, even detrimental to the development and
socio-economic opportunities of their offspring.  I remember Greenlandic
parents protesting when in the 1960s the government of Kalallit Nunaat
wanted to increase the use of Kalallisut (Greenlandic) and reduce Danish use
in school curricula.  They had come to view their own language as inferior,
at least as stumbling blocks.  I hear similar stories about former Soviet
republics where non-Russian parents pass on to their children Russian rather
than their native languages.  So, let's not point at specific people.  Let's
just accept that this is a phenomenon that can be encountered anywhere in
the world.

You will find linguistic chauvinism or even "linguistic suspicion" anywhere
in the world.  On my travels in many countries I have come across people
scolding immigrants and even visitors for speaking foreign or non-local
languages in their presence.

As on one of my Germany visits the middle-aged icecream vendor on the beach
promenade in Travem??nde barked at me when I read aloud from her list of
flavors "Maple Walnut," _So we??t hia ab?? nich ge??prochn!_ (_So wird hier
aber nicht gesprochen_ 'You don't talk like that around here!'  I was
supposed to have Germanized it as "Mahple Vallnutt," I suppose ...)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul  2 21:29:14 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 14:29:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.02 (07) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUL.2004.142914.0700.>

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From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.01 (03) [E/Gaelic]
R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> It might be helpful to assumedly many of our members if you or someone
else
> (perhaps our open-source champion Kenneth) briefly explained what
> "open-source software" is, also what its potentials are.

I'm catching up on some email here, so I'm not sure whether or not this
has been explained yet. Ignore this message if it has.

For the true definition of open source one can have a look at
http://www.opensource.org

In short: Open source software is software of which the source is
available to anyone (almost always for free, but that's not a
requirement). Anyone may make modifications and/or redistribute the
software (without fees having to be payed to the author(s)).

So where can this help us? We as native speakers could obtain the source
of some piece of software we think is useful and translate it into our
native language, and redistribute it. Without cost. One could translate
the popular alternative web suite Mozilla for example, or Evolution, an
emailclient similar to Outlook (try Evolution and/or Mozilla sometime,
good chance you'll like it). And there's lots more useful software like
that which could be translated.

Ron, perhaps you remember from a long time ago (maybe 2, 3 years
already) how I asked about creating a common form of written Saxon,
which I intended to use to translate Mozilla.

On a side note: You seem to have changed your spelling system. Have you,
and if so, how exactly?

regards,
Henry Pijffers, native Saxon and Dutch speaker (in that order)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Leyve Henry,

Wees' veel maal bedankt v?r Dyn bydrag (baven)!

> On a side note: You seem to have changed your spelling system.
> Have you, and if so, how exactly?

Ha, yeah, you missed out on the development!  (That's what you get for
leaving us!)  It's the "Algemeyne Neddersassische Schryvwys?" (ANS).  I've
married the former (Lowlands) system with one that is inspired by older
(Hanseatic) devices.  Myn Deenschen makker Kenneth Rohde Christiansen (an
Open Source champion!) and I have been working on presenting an outline, but
life keeps on interfering with and postponing such more important pursuits
...  ;-)  As far as I am concerned, you would be more than welcome to come
on board and help, Henry, myn vr?nd un mit-stryder.

For a sample, have a look under "ANS" (and contribute a Twente dialect
version if you feel so inclined):
http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/low-saxon/ls-story.html

(Translations into other languages varieties -- Lowlands or not -- would
also be welcomed with open arms.)

It's great to have you back, Henry!  :-)

Hold Dy vuchtig!
Vr?ndliche Gr?ytens,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul  2 22:27:41 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:27:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUL.2004.152741.0700.>

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From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (06) [E]

R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Don't these parents know that letting a child grow up with a second
language
> (at least) means the gift of a whole new universe? Also, I find it very
rude
> to bring up a child who is unable to speak to its own grandparents - that
> must be a heartbreaking experience for both sides! Good thing that little
> girl semms to have more sense than both her parents.
>
I cannot agree more. I'm planning on moving to Germany (as soon as
possible), and I only thought about sending my kids (yes, I have 2 now)
to a Dutch school for no longer than 2 seconds. Both are under the age
of 6 (one's 5.5 years old, the other's only 3 months old), so I'll send
them to a German school, they'll pick up the language fairly quickly
without much problem. Furthermore, I will teach the youngest Saxon (I'm
not the real father of the 1st, so whether she picks it up or not is her
choice), so she can talk to her family (who all speak Saxon, all the
time). How sad it would be if she could only speak Dutch and/or German.
My girlfriend only speaks Dutch, and she has trouble following
conversations between family members. Seeing that I'm moving to the area
of lower Niedersachsen or upper Westfalen, probably a small village in
the Grafschaft Bentheim, Niedersachen, they'll get into contact with at
least 2 varieties of Saxon. The eldest likes languages (she's very
bright and she's learning English), so I think both will pick it up, so
both will speak Saxon, Dutch, German, and most probably English. I think
these kids will have several advantages over others.

> Frankly, I wonder how much of this common attitude is a "power" issue -
the
> parents have a convenient way to speak to each other in front of the
> children without being understood (or so they hope)
 >
Children pick up languages *very* easily. Sometimes I and my girlfriend
speak English to eachother, when we don't want the eldest to know about
something, but it won't be long before she'll start understanding us in
English, so that won't fly.

regards,
Henry

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul  2 22:58:05 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:58:05 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2004.07.02 (09) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUL.2004.155805.0700.>

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From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: Orthography [E/LS]

R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> wrote:
 >
>>On a side note: You seem to have changed your spelling system.
>>Have you, and if so, how exactly?
>
> Ha, yeah, you missed out on the development!  (That's what you get for
> leaving us!)  It's the "Algemeyne Neddersassische Schryvwys?" (ANS).  I've
> married the former (Lowlands) system with one that is inspired by older
> (Hanseatic) devices.
 >
I like it! It looks almost exactly like the orthography I devised
myself. Probably because I used the same stuff as basis. Only difference
I see so far (just had a glance at your Tuunkr?per story) is the u/uu
sounds (as in Dutch). I use u for German u (as in "Flur"), ue for Dutch
short u (as in "put"), and uy for Dutch long u (as in "vuur"), so I
write "flure", "puette", and "duyre" (meaning door, because
"vuur"/"fire" would be "v?yr").

I'm going to look into your ANS, and see if I can adopt it, i.e. whether
it fits my Saxon dialect. I think I will, because it seems like it's 90%
the same. Or perhaps with a few modifications, I don't know... Will see.

> Myn Deenschen makker Kenneth Rohde Christiansen (an
> Open Source champion!) and I have been working on presenting an outline,
but
> life keeps on interfering with and postponing such more important pursuits
> ...  ;-)  As far as I am concerned, you would be more than welcome to come
> on board and help, Henry, myn vr?nd un mit-stryder.
>
Wat kan ik doon? Muet ik wat schryven? Kan ik wat bydreagen? Tyd het ik
wal, daet is geyn probleem.

> (Translations into other languages varieties -- Lowlands or not -- would
> also be welcomed with open arms.)

 > It's great to have you back, Henry!  :-)
 >
It's great to be back!

vreandelike grooten,
Henry Pijffers, native Saxon and Dutch speaker (in that order)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Henry:

> Wat kan ik doon? Muet ik wat schryven? Kan ik wat bydreagen? Tyd het ik
> wal, daet is geyn probleem.

Eyrstmaal kunst 'n vertellen vun "Dey Tuunkr?yper" schryven.  Up dey wys'
warst k?nnig, wouans dat mit d?sse schryvwys' is, of sey v?r Dyn dialekt tou
bruken is.

Den gift 't 'n barg annere saken, un daar hett upst?nds us Kenneth dat
seggen.  (Dey junge sn?sel is dey motoor vun dat projekt un dey terrier, dey
my vaken by dey hakken tou byten is ...)  Wy w?lt dat systeem beschryven, in
Sassisch, Ingelsch, D?ytsch un Hollandsch, wen 't gayt.  Wen Du mit-doun
wult, den kryg' ik min vun Kenneth syn druk tou sp?yren ...  ;-)

> "duyre" (meaning door, because
> "vuur"/"fire" would be "v?yr").

Nourd-Sassisch vun D?ytschland:

d??r [d?:3] ~ [d?:3] 'door'
d?yr [dy:3] 'dear', 'expensive'
v?yr [fy:3] 'fire'
l?yd' [ly:.(d)] 'people' (< l?yde)
dr??g' [dr?:.j] ~ [dr?:.j] 'dry' (< dr?ge)
kou [ko.U] ~ [kaU] 'cow'
k?y [k?.I] ~ [kO.I] 'cows'
l?yg' [l?:Ij] ~ [lO:Ij] 'lie' (< l?yge)
k?yr [k?.I3] ~ [ky.3] 'choice'*
beden ['be:dn] ~ ['bE:dn] 'to pray', 'to request'
beyden ['bE.Idn] 'to offer'
teert [te:3t] ~ [tE:3t] '(he) tars'
deyrt [dE.I3t] ~ [di:3t] 'animal'*
peyrd [pE.I3t] ~ [pi:3t] 'horse'*
peyrd' [pE:I3(d)] ~ [pi:.3(d)] 'horses'* (< peyrde)

* In some dialects, like those of the Lower Elbe region, diphthongs before
/r/ surface as high monophthongs.

Gr?ytens,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Jul  3 00:21:56 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 17:21:56 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (10) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUL.2004.172156.0700.>

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Language use

Beste Troy,

First of all I'd like to congratulate you for having decided to learn
Dutch as soon as possible. I truly wish that more people would be just
as interested in (Lowlands) languages, as you (and most other members
here) are.

>> Flemish language activists demand extreme respect for their language
>> (for example, they would like to enforce anybody moving to Flanders
to
>> speak Flemish within a certain amount of time)...however...if they
>> themselves are moving to Lapland, Albania, Kamchatka or Madagascar
for
>> that matter, very few of them will master the local language within
that
>> same short amount of time.

>I have to disagree. People with a "minority" native language moving to
>another area with a language they don't know tend to learn at least a
basic
>level as quickly as possible because they have to.

That's true if you're talking about people that are only able to speak
one language (their own "minority" native language). But this is almost
never the case with Flemish people because the bulk of them speaks
French and English (and often some German) as well. So in Madagascar for
example, most of them will not learn Malagasy, they will just revert to
French. This does not apply to myself (and many other members on this
board I guess), but then again, we're all language aficionados, aren't
we?

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Jul  3 16:50:51 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 09:50:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.07.03 (01) [E]
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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

> 1 apple  2 appel  3 appel  4 apel  5 appel  6 Apel  7 Apfel /apfel/
Hi Ron,
Just looked at the spelling of the word "apple" in  your list.
I think in English, one speaks of an "appel", and spells it as "apple".
In my Flemish, it is just the opposite;
I say "apple" and spell it "appel". So this happens with a great
variety of words like
(Flemish/Dutch): beutre/Boter , veugle/vogel , regle/regel ,
wizre/wijzer , Risle/Rijsel , kopple/koppel ,
voadre/vader , wezne/wezen ,... (but not in plural forms : veugels,
regels, wizers, koppels, voaders,  wezens...).
Is this a shift that has happened elswhere in the Lowland languages ?
And what is the oldest form here?

Groetjes,
luc vanbrabant
oekene

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Jul  3 17:38:21 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 10:38:21 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.03 (02) [D/E]
Message-ID: <SAT.3.JUL.2004.103821.0700.>

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From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (04) [E]

In message <008b01c46065$19e4e090$1c0d5f80 at dental.washington.edu>,
Lowlands-L <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net> writes
>On a related note, Brussel is officially bilingual. However, it has been my
>experience that even officials of the federal government refused to speak
>Dutch (and they certainly must have known it to be hired). In my particular
>case, I had to have some paper work stamped by the Ministry of the Interior
>before I was allowed to marry in Belgium. The clerk who was "assisting" me
>and my fianc?e (who is Flemish) would not speak Dutch *at all*. Now if I
had
>been by myself I really would have been stuck since I don't know French.

I have had just this kind of experience in Brussels.  My spoken and
listening Dutch is awful, but my reading Dutch is quite good now.  My
French I learned in school, and have found adequate for making small
talk with colleagues from Francophone Africa, and central and eastern
Europe, but not used for research... I have no idea what the vocabulary
is for 'issue desk', 'restricted borrowing rights' or 'please ask a
librarian before photocopying this book'.  The librarians were all,
baffled by having to deal with someone who really did need to have it
said to them in Dutch!  But they coped, and invariably, with politeness.
I think they put it down to English eccentricity.

A fair number of Dutch people must visit Brussels - what do they do?  Do
most Dutch people speak French, or do both French Belgian and
Netherlander switch to English as an acceptable compromise?  I have
found it very useful in France to switch to Italian rather than English.

Best wishes to you all,

Pat
(who found typing her password into a French keyboard very hard)
--
Pat Reynolds
pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk
   "It might look a bit messy now,
                    but just you come back in 500 years time"
   (T. Pratchett)

----------

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: "Language use" [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language use
>
> You will find linguistic chauvinism or even "linguistic suspicion"
anywhere
> in the world.  On my travels in many countries I have come across people
> scolding immigrants and even visitors for speaking foreign or non-local
> languages in their presence.

I can add an extra level of incredulity to this. When I'm speaking to
someone in BSL in public I find there's no shortage of English-only speakers
who will interrupt the conversation to complain that they can't understand
what's being said. I suppose the feeling of being excluded from something
can quickly become so painful that a person will start to act quite
irrationally.

BSL, eh? I wonder if I should just start calling it "British" - couldn't be
confused with any other language, could it?  :)

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

----------

From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (03) [E]

> From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
> Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (01) [E]
>
> Let me put things clear. I am not a extreme language activist.
> As I pointed out, I AM interested in learning other languages. I speak
> and write French in an upmost degree. And I LOVE to speak it also.
> I can not understand that some Flemish people tolerate, the lazyness
> (or
> highharted mentality) of french-spoken people into the Flemish speaking
> area.
> I am sorry Luc, but your argument works against you.
> I underlined that I speak 7 languages. French speaking people in
> Belgium
> tend to speak only ONE, whereas most flemish ar bi-lingual.
> So why the remark, that people moving abroad wouldn't be able to cope
> with a local language, whereas the Brussels residents do not even know
> or refuse to learn a language which surrounds them.
> This has nothing to do with extremism, but with courtoisie or respect.
> I remain convinced by the fact that people living in a city where the
> outskirts speak another language ( -they are surrounded-), that the
> least you can do, is to learn that language.
> The other way up in towns like Mouscron shows how that works. How
> people
> even get discriminated by asking their simple language rights.
> Our Kings, Queens and princesses do not even speak the language of the
> majority properly, whereas princess Maxima, being Argentinian,  in
> Holland was able to do it in a short while.
> So!??
>
> denis dujardin
Hi denis,
I fully subscrive your point of view regarding the languages in
Belgium.  Every belgian kid should be imposed  to learn the tree
official languages . The freedom to choose in what language one is
willing  to speak would remain. I would have no problem if the whole of
Belgium would be bi-lingual,  but with our  history i  doubt very much
if the Walloons would co-opperate. For the moment a Flemich inhabitant
just has the choise to switch into French (in most of the cases). We
have had already enough etnocides in our regions. And yes, i am not an
extremist, just a realist, with respect for all the folks that are
willing to live in mutual respect for each other cultures.

Groetjes
luc vanbrabant
oekene

----------

From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (04) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language use
> I do not know how representative this guy is for Flemish-background
> residents of Brussels.  I can simply not understand how anyone can
> view his
> own heritage with so much disdain.  (I have not even come across such
> an
> extreme attitude of what almost seems like self-loathing among
> Israelis that
> were born and raised in Germany.)  If this is not uncommon, the fate of
> Flemish seems grim indeed, at least in Brussels, if disdain for and
> disregard of it is not confined to French-speaking Belgians but has
> spilled
> over to Flemish-speaking ones as well.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron
Beste Ron,

Ik denk dat je alles kan vergelijken met mensen die zich bekeren tot
een andere godsdienst. Alles wat dan van vroeger was, wordt hardnekkig
afgezworen en bestreden. Een protestant bij voorbeeld,  moet niets meer
weten van zijn vroegere katholieke godsdienst, enz... Vlaamse mensen
uit Brussel hebben zich laten verfransen om wat hoger op de sociale
ladder te kunnen staan en willen niet meer herinnerd worden aan de tijd
ervoor!

Groetjes
luc vanbrabant
oekene

----------

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (06) [E]

First of all:
Henry, the piece you quoted was written by me, nor Ron. I'm always willing
to let him take the blame for me, but since you agreed with what was said, I
insist that I was the author! :-))

Ron, I put "American" attitude in quote marks for a reason - I didn't mean
to make a sweeping generalization, but needed some kind of an "anchor
point". Still, I would say that in 95% of second or third generation
immigrant families that I met, the "original" language had disappeared.
often deliberately. Of course this tendency is much stronger among German
families who fled their country during the Third Reich and wanted to quickly
lose a language that wasn't very popular in the world back then, and that
maybe they had come to hate.

Very often, it is also the children who refuse to speak their parents'
language in another country, sometimes for fear of being ostracised and
sometimes because they're embarrassed or don't see the point. I think I
mentioned before that my own youngest daughter, born in the States, spoke
only German until she was three, although she understood English just fine.
Once she entered daycare/kindergarten, she switched to speaking nothing but
English, even though I spoke German to her all the time. We moved back to
Germany when she was five, and she practically didn't speak at all for a few
weeks - until her younger cousin bothered her no end, and she suddenly
opened her mouth and really let him have it - in fluent German, which she
has been speaking again ever since. She is now ten and currently reading the
Lord of the Rings in English, so she hasn't lost that either.

I know several families in the States where the children are embarrassed to
speak anything but English, and several families in Germany with at least
one foreign parent where the children will speak German only, except to
their grandparents, usually. In the village where I grew up, none of the
local children emmed to be interested in learning Saxon from their parents
which was considered "way uncool" and outdated; on the other hand, I don't
recall any parents who spoke it to them (Sollinger Platt is a really strong
flavour where you don't understand a word if you know only High German),
although they spoke it with their own parents all the time.

Coming to think of it: for the motivation of both parents and children to
keep the "other" language alive, it makes a big difference whether the
family is isolated or lives within an entire foreign community within
another country. That would also explain why Hispanics, for example, are
more likely to raise their children bilingually in the States.

Now why a parent wouldn't want his child to learn the language of a country
where it may be living later in life is really beyond me. Maybe your Flemish
friend is one of those people who will never make it back, griping to the
last...

Another thing I will never understand is how many people marry a foreign
partner and never bother to learn their language. Although there is nothing
I cannot express in English, it made a big difference to me when my American
husband became fluent in German and I could say just spontaneously say
anything to him which entered my mind without first having to make sure it
was in English (this is even more important because in our family, we love
to torture each other with bad puns and wordplay).

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language use

Gabriele (above):

> Another thing I will never understand is how many people marry a foreign
> partner and never bother to learn their language.

I agree with regard to cases in which this person lives among people that
speak the partner's language.  Basically, I agree with regard to *all*
cases.  However, where the partner's language is relatively remote it can be
difficult.  I myself am guilty of insufficiently helping my wife improve her
high school German.  I have never gotten over the discomfort barrier when I
tried to speak German with her.  While in English we are equals, so to
speak, when we try to speak German with each other it feels like she is the
child and I am the parent talking down to her, keeping my language very
simple and being unable to discuss complicated subjects.  Plus, she feels
intimidated for some reason.  (Hey! Why on earth would she?!  ;-) )  While
visiting Germany I have on a couple of occasions inadvertently eavesdropped
and heard her converse fairly well in German with older relatives while
believing I was out of earshot ...  I know that this works better where
people know the language of a spouse who is not very confident and is
grateful that the person they married speaks their language.  I have
observed this particularly among East Asians  married to "Westerners" who
know their languages.

Luc (above):

> Ik denk dat je alles kan vergelijken met mensen die zich bekeren tot
> een andere godsdienst. Alles wat dan van vroeger was, wordt hardnekkig
> afgezworen en bestreden. Een protestant bij voorbeeld,  moet niets meer
> weten van zijn vroegere katholieke godsdienst, enz... Vlaamse mensen
> uit Brussel hebben zich laten verfransen om wat hoger op de sociale
> ladder te kunnen staan en willen niet meer herinnerd worden aan de tijd
> ervoor!

Dat is een heel prima vergelijking!  Bedankt, Luc!

Luc, referring to my description of a Fleming from Brussels who has nothing
but disdain for Flemish, Dutch, etc. (and to a degree for France, by the
way), compares it to a person converting to a different religion and then
going overboard by rejecting everything vaguely associated with his or her
religious past.

I remember another case, a guy from Brussels with a "thoroughly" Flemish
first and last name I met in Taiwan.  Once, in a bit of a jocular mood, I
said something to him in Dutch.  He looked at me as though I had just called
him the worst name you can imagine.  It can't have been *what* I said or the
tone in which I said it, and his wasn't an expression of surprise either,
just of dismay.  He did understand what I said, because he acted on it, but
he answered in English and later told me that he doesn't speak Dutch if he
can help it.  It seemed like an uncomfortable topic to him, and he dropped
it quickly, just had to clear up to me this supposed case of "mistaken
identity," as if to tell me, "Never do that to me again!"  He can't have
been disgruntled for too long, for he kept me on his mailing list, and a few
months after my departure from Taiwan I received from his parents an
invitation to his wedding, *in French and English, without Dutch*, although
the names of all the people mentioned were Flemish ...  (By the way, both
families were aristocrats, going by some of the titles I saw.  I don't know
if that had any bearing on the matter.)  I had had a couple of similar but
less glaring experiences before that.  Since then, and remembering reports
about street battles concerning language in Belgium when I was a child, I
have learned not to touch this Belgian language thing with a ten-foot pole,
also to try not to pass judgment (because I try to cultivate compassion, and
I don't know how I myself would feel and act if I had grown up in Brussels).
I am only discussing this here in the presence of members of this list,
because I assume you all are more broad-minded and more enlightened.

Regards,
Reihard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Jul  4 03:48:32 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 20:48:32 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.03 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.3.JUL.2004.204832.0700.>

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From: Fred van Brederode <f.vanbrederode at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.03 (02) [D/E]

> From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
> Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (04) [E]
>
> I have had just this kind of experience in Brussels.  My spoken and
> listening Dutch is awful, but my reading Dutch is quite good now.  My
> French I learned in school, and have found adequate for making small
> talk with colleagues from Francophone Africa, and central and eastern
> Europe, but not used for research... I have no idea what the vocabulary
> is for 'issue desk', 'restricted borrowing rights' or 'please ask a
> librarian before photocopying this book'.  The librarians were all,
> baffled by having to deal with someone who really did need to have it
> said to them in Dutch!  But they coped, and invariably, with politeness.
> I think they put it down to English eccentricity.
>
> A fair number of Dutch people must visit Brussels - what do they do?  Do
> most Dutch people speak French, or do both French Belgian and
> Netherlander switch to English as an acceptable compromise?  I have
> found it very useful in France to switch to Italian rather than English.

I'm not sure Pat. Dutch people just love to show off. But not very many
Dutch people are able to speak French.

My experience is that using Dutch in Brussels usually works. But then, I am
not there in a dependant situation. I am sure I take advantage of the fact
that I am the consumer in a bar or in a shop.
Maybe reluctantly, but staff always managed to tell me what the price is in
Dutch.

I discussed the language problem with a Flemish friend a while ago. He told
me he was not on to forcing Brusselarians to speak Dutch. He told me the
courtesy was to help each other. My French is not too good, nor is your
Dutch, so how do we meet halfway?
Last summer in France I met a couple from Brussels. While we were doing the
small talk like 'where are you from', they told me they were from Brussels.
So I immediately changed to Dutch 'o maar dan spreekt u ook Nederlands' (I
know it is a teaser).They explained 'wij zijn Franstalig en wij kunnen dat
niet zo goed' Though it was perfectly said, it really seemed like a hard job
for them. So then I remembered the wise words of my Flemish friend to just
help each other. We did.

It was years ago when we were on a business trip to Brussels. After some
hard work we were celebrating the end of the day on the marked place with
some good Belgian beers. When the beers were finished one of our group liked
to show his knowledge of French. He called the waiter: ?Gar?on, le m?me?.
The waiter came up to us and said in perfect Dutch: 'Uitstekend meneer, maar
in het vervolg moet u wel zeggen 'la m?me chose''.
What did we learn: stick to Dutch in Brussels, French is harder for us than
Dutch is for them.
Sometimes it is a lot easier to be Dutch than to be Flemish. Flemish people
are expected to speak an excellent French. And yes, when they don?t, I
noticed Belgian (and Dutch) people tend to jump to the modern lingua franca,
English, the harmless solution.

Groeten
Fred van Brederode

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Jul  4 19:45:20 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 12:45:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.04 (01) [E/Breton/Portuguese]
Message-ID: <SUN.4.JUL.2004.124520.0700.>

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From: Carlos Eduardo Abbud <ceabbud at yahoo.com.br>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.01 (03) [E/Gaelic]

Dear Sir,
As bretonnant and intersted in celtic cultures, I agree with you about the
need of emphazising to parents in order to make them see that a languages is
a mankind's heritage and it must be protected.
Maybe to force the Mass Media and Internet sites having editions totally in
dangered languages was a good path.
Sincerally yours
professor doctor Carlos Eduardo Le Fur Abbud

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Language use

Estimado prof. Abbud,

Digemer mad!

Obrigado para seua contribui??o, e bem-vindo ao grupo dos Lowlanders
"ativos".

Kenavo! D'ur wech all!

Com sauda??es amig?veis,

Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
Founder & Administrator, Lowlands-L
lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
http://www.lowlands-l.net

----------

From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.03 (03) [E]


From: Fred van Brederode <f.vanbrederode at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.03 (02) [D/E]


From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (04) [E]

I have had just this kind of experience in Brussels.  My spoken and
listening Dutch is awful, but my reading Dutch is quite good now.  My
French I learned in school, and have found adequate for making small
talk with colleagues from Francophone Africa, and central and eastern
Europe, but not used for research... I have no idea what the vocabulary
is for 'issue desk', 'restricted borrowing rights' or 'please ask a
librarian before photocopying this book'.  The librarians were all,
baffled by having to deal with someone who really did need to have it
said to them in Dutch!  But they coped, and invariably, with politeness.
I think they put it down to English eccentricity.

A fair number of Dutch people must visit Brussels - what do they do?  Do
most Dutch people speak French, or do both French Belgian and
Netherlander switch to English as an acceptable compromise? I have
found it very useful in France to switch to Italian rather than English.


I'm not sure Pat. Dutch people just love to show off. But not very many
Dutch people are able to speak French.
Pat and Fred,

But most Flemish, do speak French, because it is obligatory at school from
the age of 10 years.
French lessons are taken very seriously and important.
It is also obligatory in Wallonia, but it is mainly considered as boring and
unnecessary.
The awareness of Dutch being important in some more upperclass groups in
French spoken Belgium is though growing.


My experience is that using Dutch in Brussels usually works. But then, I am
not there in a dependant situation. I am sure I take advantage of the fact
that I am the consumer in a bar or in a shop.
Maybe reluctantly, but staff always managed to tell me what the price is in
Dutch.
The more expensive a shop is, the more bilingual staff will be. That doesnt
need any explantion of course.


I discussed the language problem with a Flemish friend a while ago. He told
me he was not on to forcing Brusselarians to speak Dutch.
That doesn't make any sense of course. You can't force people to switch
their basic language, but politically, one can organize an
institutionalisation of Dutch being equal in official matters. As it happens
theoretically right now.

He told me the

courtesy was to help each other.
But this courtesy between French spoken Belgians and Flemish generally turns
into one direction. The Dutch speaking person switches.

 My French is not too good, nor is your
Dutch, so how do we meet halfway?
Last summer in France I met a couple from Brussels. While we were doing the
small talk like 'where are you from', they told me they were from Brussels.
So I immediately changed to Dutch 'o maar dan spreekt u ook Nederlands' (I
know it is a teaser).They explained 'wij zijn Franstalig en wij kunnen dat
niet zo goed'
Let me put things clear. Only 14% of Brussels population is Dutch spoken.
Before the war, they were majority. A lot of people converted themselves to
French because of the collaboration of Flemish Nationalists with the Nazis.
A second reason of this conversion, was also the status of French being the
upperclass language (like it allways have been in a way from about the 16th
century onwards).
Flemish or Dutch was an inferior peasant-language, which wouldn't help you
to improve your social position.

 Though it was perfectly said, it really seemed like a hard job
for them. So then I remembered the wise words of my Flemish friend to just
help each other. We did.

It was years ago when we were on a business trip to Brussels. After some
hard work we were celebrating the end of the day on the marked place with
some good Belgian beers. When the beers were finished one of our group liked
to show his knowledge of French. He called the waiter: ?Gar?on, le m?me?.
The waiter came up to us and said in perfect Dutch: 'Uitstekend meneer, maar
in het vervolg moet u wel zeggen 'la m?me chose''.
What did we learn: stick to Dutch in Brussels, French is harder for us than
Dutch is for them.
Sometimes it is a lot easier to be Dutch than to be Flemish. Flemish people
are expected to speak an excellent French.
Things are though changing. Because of the big number of Arab (Maroccan)
immigration in Brussels, many French spoken parents send their children to
Dutch spoken schools because they have a much better reputation.
North-African an Turkish immigrants tend to send their children to French
spoken schools.
So those children have much more opportunity to know both languages. The
reason here is mainly not to double language knowledge, but more one of
avoiding a presumed deterioration of school environment.

And yes, when they don?t, I
noticed Belgian (and Dutch) people tend to jump to the modern lingua franca,
English, the harmless solution.
Of course we do not appose against the modern lingua franca (I am using it
right now....). The only problem is - as I repeatedly qouted - the stubborn
and highharted mentality of a group of French spoken immigrants in the
Flemish area who refuse to use a bit of 'courtoisie'. I think it is a
remnant of a language which is losing its power as a former lingua franca in
favour of Eglish.

Denis Dujardin
Flanders

----------

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.03 (02) [D/E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language use
> I do not know how representative this guy is for Flemish-background
residents of Brussels.  I can simply not understand how anyone can view his
own heritage with so much disdain.  (I have not even come across such an
extreme attitude of what almost seems like self-loathing among Israelis that
were born and raised in Germany.)

I cannot judge about individual cases, and visions of Belgians on issues
like this differ. Till the mid of last century, French continued to be
promoted as "the" national language by many. In schools this was often
inposed by different degrees of intimidation. Kids can be mutually cruel and
reinforce this kind of intimidation and even preserve someting of this
attitude, once they are grown up.
When reading political comments in walloon language usenetgroups, defendants
of the walloon language complain of similar intimidations, still strongly
persisting over there.
Prussians have thriven out the use of Dutch as school and church language in
the Kleve area (Niederrhein) in the beginning of the 19th century. They even
forced immigration from the Pfalz to this area (cf. the Pf?lzer D?rfer South
of Kleve), breaking the cultural homogeneity.

It is my personal conviction, as regard to Dutch, attitudes are changing.
Since this switch, even when slow, is in our favour, I think it is better to
let it have its natural course, rather tan inverse the intimidation. I
believe one can only win in cultural battles, when one respects everybody's
freedom of choice in private life.
What I see, at meetings of the Chambre Franco-Belge in Lille (France), at
the dinners, generally at the end of the meetings, conversation language is
often switching from French into Dutch. I'm conviced Dutch is not suppressed
any more in business live. I'm also convinced this will work through slowly
through the social behaviour of new generations.
The francisation process in Brussels took several hundreds of years. It is
not realistic to suppose it can be fully reversed in a couple of years.

Further, I'm wundering whether or not these are the real social problems, we
Belgians have to focus on.
In the last two weeks we had a doazen of anti-semitic incidents in the
Antwerp area. One boy was stabbed with a knife in the back, by a group of
other kids, described as Arabic. Stones were thrown at a Jewish bow on a
bike a couple of days later etc. Jewish kids in Antwerp often belong to
Orthodox groups, are easely recognisable, and become easy targets.
We have a strong Arabic population in several towns. Arabic kids are
increasingly frustrated (because of lack of employment, because of
international events, because of ..?). Political parties in the North are
trying to cope with the growth of the "Vlaams Blok", a political party, who
clearly states they want to "encourage" the return of (muslim) foreigners to
their homelands. They got about 25 percent in regional elections.
So we have a quite large marginal third generation immigrants group, that is
rather further and further maginalized.
I'm very much afraid this is growing into a bomb, which will explode some
day.

So I'm less concerned with somme fossiled French-speaking people from
Brussels, who eventually continue to have an anti-Flemish attitude. Downtown
Brussels streets are linguistically predominantly Arabic-Berber by night
anyhow. So I'm much more concerned about the incapacity of our government to
deal with third generation North-African immigrants, than with some fossiled
reportedly anti-Flemish incidents. I personally think the Flemish movement
got almost all it wanted to get. So it's time to look around from time to
time and set priorities.

Regards,
Roger

----------

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.03 (02) [D/E]

Addendum to my comment to:

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language use
> I do not know how representative this guy is for Flemish-background
residents of Brussels.  I can simply not understand how anyone can view his
own heritage with so much disdain.  (I have not even come across such an
extreme attitude of what almost seems like self-loathing among Israelis that
were born and raised in Germany.)

This may be illustrated by the song "De Marollien" by Jef Elbers (dating
from the sixties or early seventies).
I leave it here for a couple of days:
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/marol.wma

It dates from times when it was still difficult to motivate parents to send
their kids to Flemish (Dutch language) schools in Brussels.
It is a little ballad about a boy marrying a girl, who's family opts for the
French culture. Their son is sent to a French language school and is ashamed
about his father being Flemish. When the father becomes aware of this, it is
to late for a reversal.
Since Flemish ballads end with a moral: it is recommended to send one's kids
to a Flemish school.
It is in mixed language: Brabantish from Brussels and French.

Some vocabulary:
ket:     boy (in Brussels)
poepa:     father
maske:     girl
fuur:     fair (kermis)
peire:     father
een peer draaien op zijne smoel:    hit him on his face / on his mouth:

Enjoy.
Regards,
Roger

----------

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.03 (02) [D/E]

One more reflection to:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc." <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
To: <lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET>
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 5:08 PM
Subject: Re: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.03 (02) [D/E]
> It dates from times when it was still difficult to motivate parents to
send
> their kids to Flemish (Dutch language) schools in Brussels.

Case:
A pupil with an extremely stong cockney accent in a London school.
What should the teacher do:

- Encourage him to learn standard English (with the motivation Cokney = bad
and English = good)?

- Encourage him to learn standard English (with the motivation Cokney = good
but our tricly world forces us to adjust our identity, play the game and use
an "English language mask")?

- Encourage him to use Cockney only, for the preservation of this language
variant, and rest in the reduction of his carreer opprtunities?

- Encourage him to become bilingual, Cockney for the friends and the
playground, and English for literature and contacts with snobs?

In the case of the Brussels song by Elbers,  "Brabantish from Brussels" and
"Dutch" are both called "Flemish" in opposition to French.
While the kid is switching from "Brabantish" to "French", the song presents
this as a betrayal of "Dutch".

So we can solve the enigma by stating that Flemish, Brabantish and
Limburgish are all just dialects of Dutch. In this political spirit the
Taaluniie advized negatively about the recognition of Limburgish in Belgium,
even after Limburgish was recognized for the Netherlands.

Regards,
Roger

----------

From: marco [evenhuiscommunicatie] <marco at evenhuiscommunicatie.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.03 (03) [E]

> > A fair number of Dutch people must visit Brussels - what do they do?  Do
> > most Dutch people speak French, or do both French Belgian and
> > Netherlander switch to English as an acceptable compromise?  I have
> > found it very useful in France to switch to Italian rather than English.

Folks,

I think even after all these postings about Brussels, the situation as
decribed on this list is still oversimplified. There are francophones in
Brussels that can't speak Dutch, there are people who have their reasons to
avoid speaking Dutch as much as they can, there are people that are
bilingual who are most willingly to switch to Dutch if necessary, there are
bilinguals that clearly have their preferred language, some people form
Brussels speak Dutch with a strong French accent, some speak French with a
strong Brabatish accent, some mix their French with words from Brabantish
(germanic!) dialect of the city and there are even parts of Brussels where
this old Brabantish dialect is still the preferred language in caf?s and at
home.
The most complicated situation I once found myself in in Brussels, was when
I met a guy in a caf? in the Marollen-district. The bar appeared to have a
bilingual name, but in fact the two names where both mixed Dutch/Flemish and
French: 'Bij den Binche' was the "Dutch" version of the name, 'Chez Binchke'
was the "French" version (if I remember correctly). The guy I spoke with,
was speaking the old Brabantish dialect of Brussels with his friends, adding
French words and curses every now and then. I said something to him in
Dutch, but I think he felt uncomfortable in Standard Dutch (probably only
having learned French in school; his dialect only being an unwritten
language with a very low prestige, differing enormously from the Standard
Dutch he heard on tv or radio). So he appoligized for switching to French
and then started to speak French with a very, very strong Brabantish accent
and adding loads of Dutch/Brabantish words. I'm sure he was convinced that
he could get away with this unique mixed language in Paris just as well as
in his own pub. But I'm sure only people that speak French ?nd Dutch and
have a little knowledge of Brabantish could follow him.
French was close to him, but it wasn't his real mother tongue. Dutch was
further away from him, but he could well understand it, although he didn't
dare to speak it - afraid as he was to make mistakes. His real mother tongue
was the germanic Brabantish dialect of his city, but that dialect is rapidly
dying out and I bet that over 80% of the francophone people in Brussels
don't even know about the existence of it. (Strange enough, with the actual
dialect gradually disappearing, more and more roadsigns in the
Marollen-district are becoming trilingual French, Dutch and the Brabantish
Brussels dialect: Rue Haute - Hoogstraat - Hu?gstroet).
Then I realized that I probably will never fully understand Brussels. I said
that to the man I met in the caf? and he just replied 'Nobody understands
Brussels. That's why we're here, drinking beer. Allez sant?, alleman!'

regards,

Marco

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Jul  4 19:49:30 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 12:49:30 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.07.04 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.4.JUL.2004.124930.0700.>

======================================================================
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L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws)
=======================================================================

From: GoodbyColumbus at aol.com <GoodbyColumbus at aol.com>
Subject: Appalachian English (Ap)

Hey y'all,

I like to consider myself an amateur spare-time linguist of sorts, and have
been lurking around this list for about a year now, without ever posting
anything. So, I guess there's a first time for everything.

I'd just like to ask someone, anyone, to point me in a general direction
where I can learn more about the Appalachian dialect of English. And just a
few (hopefully not too idiotic) questions:
What constitutes the "region" where this dialect is spoken? In what I've
read as being characteristic of the Appalachian English dialect, I've found
that a vast majority of vocabulary, grammar, usages, etc. are found as far
west as the Highland Rim in west middle Tennessee, where I grew up and from
where I write this e-mail. Is the infamous "country accent" and "country
talk" which I grew with up a derivative of the mountains? Maybe I just had
false impressions in thinking that it was more of a 'southern' accent. Am I
wrong?

Was there any influence from other lowlands tongues (i.e. Low Saxon, Dutch),
apart Scots by way of Ulster? I've even heard that "clabber" finds its roots
in a Gaelic word,  clabair, having something to do, I think, with the word
for mud.

I'm sort of tone-deaf, so, I ask, phonetically, what would differentiate a
native of southern Mississippi, a native of piedmont Virginia and a native
of central West Virginia?

I guess that's all for now, y'all. I hope I get some answers and that all
this will start up a new debate, and that there's other fellow Lowlanders
out there interested in this.

any help or dialogue would be much obliged,
Brad E. Conatser
goodbycolumbus at aol.com

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Language varieties

Hey, Brad!

Welcome among the vocal Lowlanders!  Nice to see two lurkers come forth out
of the shadows in one day.

Happy Fourth of July to you and to all Lowlanders in and from the United
States!

Regards,

Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
Founder & Administrator, Lowlands-L
lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
http://www.lowlands-l.net

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Jul  4 20:00:39 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 13:00:39 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.07.04 (03) [A/E]
Message-ID: <SUN.4.JUL.2004.130039.0700.>

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From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.07.03 (01) [E]

luc vanbrabant wrote:
 >
> I think in English, one speaks of an "appel", and spells it as "apple".
> In my Flemish, it is just the opposite;
> I say "apple" and spell it "appel". So this happens with a great
> variety of words like
> (Flemish/Dutch): beutre/Boter , veugle/vogel , regle/regel ,
> wizre/wijzer , Risle/Rijsel , kopple/koppel ,
> voadre/vader , wezne/wezen ,... (but not in plural forms : veugels,
> regels, wizers, koppels, voaders,  wezens...).
> Is this a shift that has happened elswhere in the Lowland languages ?
> And what is the oldest form here?
>
When reading veugle/vogel I thought of the oldest known piece of Dutch
text "hebben alle vogala". Perhaps in Flanders they went from vogala to
vogla/vogle or something similar? Or is it instead an indication that
the oldest known form was "vogal" or "vogel", with the plural being
"vogala"?

Or perhaps it's just French influence...

Henry

----------

From: marco [evenhuiscommunicatie] <marco at evenhuiscommunicatie.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.07.03 (01) [E]

Luc wrote:

> Just looked at the spelling of the word "apple" in  your list.
> I think in English, one speaks of an "appel", and spells it as "apple".
> In my Flemish, it is just the opposite;
> I say "apple" and spell it "appel". So this happens with a great
> variety of words like
> (Flemish/Dutch): beutre/Boter , veugle/vogel , regle/regel ,
> wizre/wijzer , Risle/Rijsel , kopple/koppel ,
> voadre/vader , wezne/wezen ,... (but not in plural forms : veugels,
> regels, wizers, koppels, voaders,  wezens...).
> Is this a shift that has happened elswhere in the Lowland languages ?
> And what is the oldest form here?

It is not a shift, it's just the old suffix -e that medieval Dutch also knew
and that survived in a number of dialects, including West-Flemish and
Zeelandic. I think the clue here is that there is an extra e (schwa) that
has become completely silent in most West-Flemish dialects. So your examples
should in fact be spelled appele, beutere, veugele, Riesele, vaodere, etc.,
but in reality do sound the way you described (apple, veugle, etc.). Compare
this to the suffix -e in words like straote, schuure, katte, etc. So it's
just stem+e and a 'forgotten' schwa in the stem... This also explains the
plural forms, which are just stem+s.

regards,

Marco

----------

From: Liza du Plooy <lizaduplooy at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.07.03 (01) [E]

Luc wrote:

Just looked at the spelling of the word "apple" in your list.
I think in English, one speaks of an "appel", and spells it as "apple".
In my Flemish, it is just the opposite;
I say "apple" and spell it "appel". So this happens with a great
variety of words like
(Flemish/Dutch): beutre/Boter , veugle/vogel , regle/regel ,
wizre/wijzer , Risle/Rijsel , kopple/koppel ,
voadre/vader , wezne/wezen ,...

This is why I love my language! In Afrikaans s? mens appel en jy spel dit
appel. Ek dink dit is 'n fantastiese en maklike taal. Hoera Afrikaans!

Liza du Plooy

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Haai, Liza!

In Nedersassies spel 'n mens ook "appel" (of "Appel") en s? "appel".  Maar
in die meeste tongvalle s? 'n mens die "-el" sonder 'n klinker; dis 'n
lettergrepig "l", asof "apl" gespel.

Groete,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Jul  4 23:23:59 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 16:23:59 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.04 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.4.JUL.2004.162359.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Dear Lowlanders,

Here's another question about lexical inventory in Lowlands languages.

I am more concerned about actual, native, original, normal usage than about
availability of lesser-used expressions and neologisms.

I have noticed that (again, in ordinary speech) both Lowlands Saxon (Low
German) and Scots tend to use the same word for "hill" and "mountain":

Lowlands Saxon: _barg_ <Barg> [ba:x]
Scots: _hill_ ~ _hull_

German and English, on the other hand, clearly distinguish between _H?gel_
and _Berg_ and between "hill" and "mountain" respectively.

Yiddish may represent an intermediate type, using _barg_ ???? (in some
dialects _berg_ ????) for 'mountain' and its diminutive form _bergl_ ?????
for 'hill'.

Now, in Lowlands Saxon you can use _b?lt_ <B?lt> [bY.lt] or _kn?l_ <Kn?ll>
[knY.l] for 'hill', but I feel that these rather denote very small hills,
"glorified bumps," "knolls" in fact.  The normal word for both "hill" and
"mountain" is _barg_.

Similarly, you have available the Romance-derived word _muntain_ for
'mountain' in Scots, besides Celtic-derived _ben_ for very tall peaks of the
Scottish highlands.  But from my reading I take it that in normal Scots
_hill_ ~ _hull_ applies to 'mountain' as well.

Note also that in English "hill" is of native origin while "mountain" is a
Romance loan.

I believe that the numerous Frisian varieties of the Netherlands and Germany
have similar lack of distinction.

I keep wondering if this apparent (original?) lack of distinction is because
in the Lowlands you don't get anything that is taller than what we call a
"hill."  Real "mountains" are outside the original language region.
Newcomers to Hamburg, Germany, find it rather strange to find a range of
hills south of the southern branch of River Elbe referred to as _Harborger
Bargen_ (LS) and _Harburger Berge_ (G).  To people of the area they seem
like mountains (at least in the olden days), and they even try to ski on
them if there is snow in the winter.  The closest real mountains are the
Harz Mountains, that lie on the southern edge of the language area.

I wonder if there are similar situations in other Lowlands language
varieties, especially in the varieties of the Netherlands, Belgium and
Northern France.  I am less interested in reference to "real" ("exotic")
mountains outside that area.  I also wonder if those varieties "act"
differently from Afrikaans, given that Afrikaans-speaking areas (i.e.,
Southern Africa) do indeed have both hills (_heuwels_, _bulte_, _koppies_,
_rantjies_) and mountains (_berge_, _koppe_), besides knolls (_bulties_,
_heuwelties_).

Thanks for thinking about it!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul  5 18:36:05 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 11:36:05 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.05 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUL.2004.113605.0700.>

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From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Lexicon [E/N]

Dear all,

Interested in Ron's point that 'mountain' is a Romance
loan. In Northumbrian it becomes 'moontin', which
suggests a clear example of 'northumbrianisation'.
I've also noticed that hill gets used a lot instead of
mountain in Northumberland, e.g. the Cheviot Hills, an
area I suppose that could be classed as mountainous.

cheors,

Glenn Simpson

----------

From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.04 (04) [E]

R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> wrote:
 >
> I have noticed that (again, in ordinary speech) both Lowlands Saxon (Low
> German) and Scots tend to use the same word for "hill" and "mountain":
>
<snip/>
>
> Now, in Lowlands Saxon you can use _b?lt_ <B?lt> [bY.lt] or _kn?l_ <Kn?ll>
> [knY.l] for 'hill', but I feel that these rather denote very small hills,
> "glorified bumps," "knolls" in fact.  The normal word for both "hill" and
> "mountain" is _barg_.
>
I can confirm it's the same in Twente Low Saxon, and I think in most
Saxon varieties on the Dutch side of the border. We also use "beld" for
hill, but it's used in more or less the same way as "b?lt".

grooten,
Henry

----------

From: Fr?d?ric Baert <baert_frederic at CARAMAIL.COM>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.04 (04) [E]

Hi
As far as I know, french west flemish only know the word "berg" (with its
typical "e" pronunced much more like a "a" than like a "e") for
hill/mountain.
We use it to speak about our "mounts":
1: french flemish
2: french
3: english

1: Katsberg 2: mont des Cats 3: mount of the cats (an old tribe who has
lived there)
1: zwartenberg 2: mont noir 3: black mount
1: groenenberg of sintwinoksberg 2: mont vert ou mont Saint Winoc 3 the
green mount or mount of Saint Winoc (actual city of Bergues or Bergues
Saint Winoc)
1: kasselberg 2: mont Cassel 3 Cassel mount : the highest top of the whole
flanders with 176m.
and also in Belgium
1: Ro'enberg 2: mont rouge 3: red mount
1: Kemmelberg 2: mont kemmel 3: kemmel mount

As you said Ron, I think that, at least flemings did not need to have a
word for mountain since the highest tops are not more than 170m. In our
case, it's "berg" that have survived and we do not know a word related to
english "hill" any more.

Best regards
Fr?d?ric Baert

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Thanks for the feed back, folks!

Here is my question again, because for some reason a whole bunch of people
have been joining us today, and I don't want them to be "deprived" of the
beginning of this thread.  ;-)  It will be followed by a postscript.

> Here's another question about lexical inventory in Lowlands languages.
>
> I am more concerned about actual, native, original, normal usage than
about
> availability of lesser-used expressions and neologisms.
>
> I have noticed that (again, in ordinary speech) both Lowlands Saxon (Low
> German) and Scots tend to use the same word for "hill" and "mountain":
>
> Lowlands Saxon: _barg_ <Barg> [ba:x]
> Scots: _hill_ ~ _hull_
>
> German and English, on the other hand, clearly distinguish between _H?gel_
> and _Berg_ and between "hill" and "mountain" respectively.
>
> Yiddish may represent an intermediate type, using _barg_ ???? (in some
> dialects _berg_ ????) for 'mountain' and its diminutive form _bergl_ ?????
> for 'hill'.
>
> Now, in Lowlands Saxon you can use _b?lt_ <B?lt> [bY.lt] or _kn?l_ <Kn?ll>
> [knY.l] for 'hill', but I feel that these rather denote very small hills,
> "glorified bumps," "knolls" in fact.  The normal word for both "hill" and
> "mountain" is _barg_.
>
> Similarly, you have available the Romance-derived word _muntain_ for
> 'mountain' in Scots, besides Celtic-derived _ben_ for very tall peaks of
the
> Scottish highlands.  But from my reading I take it that in normal Scots
> _hill_ ~ _hull_ applies to 'mountain' as well.
>
> Note also that in English "hill" is of native origin while "mountain" is a
> Romance loan.
>
> I believe that the numerous Frisian varieties of the Netherlands and
Germany
> have similar lack of distinction.
>
> I keep wondering if this apparent (original?) lack of distinction is
because
> in the Lowlands you don't get anything that is taller than what we call a
> "hill."  Real "mountains" are outside the original language region.
> Newcomers to Hamburg, Germany, find it rather strange to find a range of
> hills south of the southern branch of River Elbe referred to as _Harborger
> Bargen_ (LS) and _Harburger Berge_ (G).  To people of the area they seem
> like mountains (at least in the olden days), and they even try to ski on
> them if there is snow in the winter.  The closest real mountains are the
> Harz Mountains, that lie on the southern edge of the language area.
>
> I wonder if there are similar situations in other Lowlands language
> varieties, especially in the varieties of the Netherlands, Belgium and
> Northern France.  I am less interested in reference to "real" ("exotic")
> mountains outside that area.  I also wonder if those varieties "act"
> differently from Afrikaans, given that Afrikaans-speaking areas (i.e.,
> Southern Africa) do indeed have both hills (_heuwels_, _bulte_, _koppies_,
> _rantjies_) and mountains (_berge_, _koppe_), besides knolls (_bulties_,
> _heuwelties_).

There's also the placename (nowadays a part of Hamburg, I believe) LS
_Bargd?rp_ ['ba:xd?.3p], German _Bergedorf_, literally "mountain village," a
place that has hills, at best.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul  5 18:39:35 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 11:39:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.05 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUL.2004.113935.0700.>

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From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.04 (01) [E/Breton/Portuguese]

I think Roger is fully right when setting up proportions. It is true that
other social problems are higher ranking.
But we are on a language forum aren't we?

denis dujardin

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul  5 19:02:34 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 12:02:34 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2004.07.05 (03) [A/E/LS]
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUL.2004.120234.0700.>

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From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen <kenneth.christiansen at gmail.com>
Subject: How open source can help us.

Hi there!

--
I like it! It looks almost exactly like the orthography I devised
myself. Probably because I used the same stuff as basis. Only difference
I see so far (just had a glance at your Tuunkr?per story) is the u/uu
sounds (as in Dutch). I use u for German u (as in "Flur"), ue for Dutch
short u (as in "put"), and uy for Dutch long u (as in "vuur"), so I
write "flure", "puette", and "duyre" (meaning door, because
"vuur"/"fire" would be "v?yr").
--

We use u for lax german u and for the ? (used in the Groninger
spelling) sound in dialects where u has turned into ? and is still
different from ? [O] and o.
We use ? for Dutch lax u.

--
I'm going to look into your ANS, and see if I can adopt it, i.e. whether
it fits my Saxon dialect. I think I will, because it seems like it's 90%
the same. Or perhaps with a few modifications, I don't know... Will see.
--

Sounds good :-)

--
Wat kan ik doon? Muet ik wat schryven? Kan ik wat bydreagen? Tyd het ik
wal, daet is geyn probleem.
--
As du tyd hest kinst misscheyn mit my ontmouten - k Bin nou in Gr?nnen
en ik dink tot vrydag.

--
Eyrstmaal kunst 'n vertellen vun "Dey Tuunkr?yper" schryven. Up dey wys'
warst k?nnig, wouans dat mit d?sse schryvwys' is, of sey v?r Dyn dialekt tou
bruken is.
--

Misscheyn kinst ook eyn mp3- of wav-bestand maken? It probleem mit
schryvwysen binnen vaak dey allofonen - l?tje verschillen dat minschen
geern schyven willen.

--
Den gift 't 'n barg annere saken, un daar hett upst?nds us Kenneth dat
seggen. (Dey junge sn?sel is dey motoor vun dat projekt un dey terrier, dey
my vaken by dey hakken tou byten is ...) Wy w?lt dat systeem beschryven, in
Sassisch, Ingelsch, D?ytsch un Hollandsch, wen 't gayt. Wen Du mit-doun
wult, den kryg' ik min vun Kenneth syn druk tou sp?yren ... ;-)
--

En dat dinkst? :P hahah

--
deyrt [dE.I3t] ~ [di:3t] 'animal'*
peyrd [pE.I3t] ~ [pi:3t] 'horse'*
peyrd' [pE:I3(d)] ~ [pi:.3(d)] 'horses'* (< peyrde)

* In some dialects, like those of the Lower Elbe region, diphthongs before
/r/ surface as high monophthongs.
--

en dat willen wy leiver neit in dey schyvwyse sein laden as it m?gelk
is dat neit te doun.

We need to show the important differences between the dialects and not
the smaller ones. We need to unite the spelling and make it work for
most of the dialects - of course with out making it too difficult to
use. This is very important at least if we want to translate computer
software into Low Saxon.

----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.07.04 (03) [A/E]

Beste Liza du Plooy en Reinhard,

 Subject: LL-L "Phonology"

> This is why I love my language! In Afrikaans s? mens appel en jy spel dit
> appel. Ek dink dit is 'n fantastiese en maklike taal. Hoera Afrikaans!

Laat ons dit geniet wyls ons kan! Mense praat heelwat meer as hulle skryf,
en verander baie vinniger hul spreektaal as hul skryftaal. Eens op 'n tyd is
Engels ook gespreek soos dit geskryf is, n?? Ek verwag net so lank 'n
geskiedenis van Afrikaans as wat Engels tot op hede gehad het, en hoe sal
ons nageslag in die duistere toekoms vir ons Taal wil skel, met sy
ouderwetse en onnatuurlikke spelling!

(Let us enjoy it while we can! People speak rather more than they write, and
change their spoken language much quicker than their written language.  Once
upon a time English was also spoken as it was written, not so? I expect with
Afrikaans just as long a history as English has had until now, and how our
descendants in the distant future will want to cuss this language, with its
old-fashioned and unnatural spelling!)

> In Nedersassies spel 'n mens ook "appel" (of "Appel") en s? "appel".  Maar
> in die meeste tongvalle s? 'n mens die "-el" sonder 'n klinker; dis 'n
> lettergrepig "l", asof "apl" gespel.

Wil u aub hieroor uitbrei, Ron? Mynsinsiens het elke konsonant noodwendig 'n
"default" schwa: dit moet mos uitgespreek word, n?? Die Hebreuse alfabet is
baie afhanklik daarvan, maar is dit nie beter, in letterrgrepige verband, om
selfs die schwa by te voeg?

Groete,

Mark

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Mark (hierbo):

> Wil u aub hieroor uitbrei, Ron? Mynsinsiens het elke konsonant noodwendig
'n
> "default" schwa: dit moet mos uitgespreek word, n?? Die Hebreuse alfabet
is
> baie afhanklik daarvan, maar is dit nie beter, in letterrgrepige verband,
om
> selfs die schwa by te voeg?

Ja, dit glo ek dikwels ook, Mark, ook wat _-en_ en _-er_ betref.

Dis belangwekkend, dat ons in Nedersassies <-el>, <-en> en <-er> skryf maar
dit nooit met 'n klinker uitspreek nie.  (<-en> is 'n lettergrepige [n], [m]
of [N]/[ng], wat van die voorafgaande konsonant afhank. <-er> en <-r> is 'n
lettergreep met r-kleur -- "non-rhotic".)

Ek weet nie of hierdie <-el>, <-en> en <-er> in Middelsassies mit schwa word
uitgespreek nie, of of hierdie spellings aan invloed van Duitse en Hollandse
spellings te wyte is.  Maar vir die huidige dialekte neem ek fonemies
lettergrepig /-l/, /-n/ en /-r/ aan.

Groete,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul  5 19:05:25 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 12:05:25 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.05 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUL.2004.120525.0700.>

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From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen <kenneth.christiansen at gmail.com>
Subject: How open source can help us.

--
In short: Open source software is software of which the source is
available to anyone (almost always for free, but that's not a
requirement). Anyone may make modifications and/or redistribute the
software (without fees having to be payed to the author(s)).
--

Well open source is complicated because there are various different
licenses :) but generally it means what you said. Well, the most known
license is the GPL which requires you to always distribute the source
code (FOR FREE!) and if you make changes to the source (which is
allowed) you have to distribute the source code to those changes as
well (for free). You are allowed to sell products based on the source
code as long as you respect the license.

This means that we can take the source code and fix things that makes
the applicatiosn work with our languages, like for instance translate
different applications like GNOME, Evolution, OpenOffice, Mozilla
Firefox etc.

If anyone is interested in this I can surely help. I have many
contacts in the open source community (just came home from the open
source conference GUADEC - GNOME Users and Developers European
Conference in Kristiansand, Norway) and I used to be one of the
maintainers of the GNOME Translation Project.

Groutnis,
Kenneth

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul  5 19:23:45 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 12:23:45 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.05 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUL.2004.122345.0700.>

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From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.05 (01) [E]

Frederic,

But there are still some toponyms in Belgian Franders which refer to hill.
For example the village of Lotenhulle (near Gent), meaning Lo ten Hulle:
Forest on the hill.
Maybe "helling" is used in French Flemish. I never heard it though. "Helling
" meaning "slope" in Dutch.

best greetings

denis dujardin
kortrijk
flanders

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Denis, folks,

In the North Saxon dialects of Germany, the normal equivalent for the noun
'slope' or 'hillside' (i.e., sloping ground, German _Abhang_ lit. "off-hang"
or _Anh??he_ lit. "on(to)-height") is _an-barg_ <Anbarg> ['?a.nba:x],
literally "on(to)-mountain/hill".  This can also denote a path or road that
goes up onto a hill or mountain.

Apparently, Scots has several general equivalents for this.  Of these, I
feel that _brae_ (related to or derived from Gaeilic _br? ighe_ 'upper part
(of a place)'?) is closest related in meaning to LS _an-barg_ in that it can
denote a fairly steep hillside or bank, an upland area, or a path or road
with a fairly steep gradient.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul  5 22:33:17 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 15:33:17 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.05 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUL.2004.153317.0700.>

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: "Lexicon" [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Lexicon
>
> Apparently, Scots has several general equivalents for this.  Of these, I
> feel that _brae_ (related to or derived from Gaeilic _br ighe_ 'upper part
> (of a place)'?) is closest related in meaning to LS _an-barg_ in that it
can
> denote a fairly steep hillside or bank, an upland area, or a path or road
> with a fairly steep gradient.

It doesn't have to be steep at all to qualify as a "brae".

Some common terminology:

braefit: the foot of a "brae".

braeheid: the flatter area at the top of a "brae".

snab: the place where the "brae" starts to level off before reaching the
"braeheid".

a stey brae: a steep "brae".

braes: an area with a number of topographically related "braes" or a
continuous winding embankment, eg "Lade Braes" in St Andrews, Fife.

A well-known proverb is "A stoot hert tae a stey brae." [@ stu? hIr? tI a
st at I bre:] - meaning "A stout (strong) heart to a steep
hillside/slope/path."

A popular idiomatic phrase for "to climb the hill" is "tae speel the brae".

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul  5 22:37:48 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 15:37:48 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.05 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUL.2004.153748.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Apparently, there is some etymological uncertainty here.

The _Chambers Concise Scots Dictionary_ connects Scots _brae_ and Gaelic
_br? ighe_ with Gaelic _bruach_ '(river) bank', 'brink'.

If so, there may be a connection with Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _brouk_
(<Brook>) [broUk] ~ [braUk] 'grassy slope by a (river) bank', also German
_Bruch_* (< _bruoh_), hence also with Dutch _broek_ and English "brook" <
Old English _br??c_.

* In Northern German dialects, the LS loan _Brook_ is often used instead of
German _Bruch_.  This is similar to LS-derived _Reet_ (< _reyd_ [rE.It] ~
[ra.It]) for _Ried_ 'reed'.  I am never sure if these refer to North German
variants (e.g., Northern-style reed-thatched houses) or are simply due to
"interference.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Andy (Scots-Online) <andy at scots-online.org>
Subject: [SPAM] Re:      LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.05 (05) [E]

Ron wrote:

> Apparently, Scots has several general equivalents for this.  Of these, I
> feel that _brae_ (related to or derived from Gaeilic _br ighe_ 'upper part
> (of a place)'?) is closest related in meaning to LS _an-barg_ in that it
can
> denote a fairly steep hillside or bank, an upland area, or a path or road
> with a fairly steep gradient.
>
Brae may also be related to Old Norse br??, eyelash , Anglo-Saxon br??circ;w,
br??aw, eyelid, Old High German br??wa, German. braue, with development of
meaning from eyelash, eyelid, eyebrow, brow, to brow of a hill. Brow is brou
[bru:] in Scots

Andy Eagle

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Lexicon

Beste Ron,

The word "hill" (E) still exists in Brabantish, but is pronounced as
"(h)??l".

"een h??lleken gras" (D) ~ "??n ??lleke g??s" (B) is a bunch of grass, standing
out in a lawn that is otherwise level.

In other Dutch dialects "hil(le)" can also mean "height", "mound" and
"dune". The word appears to be cognate with Latin "collis" (= hill), Greek
"kol??n??s" (= hill), Middle Irish "coll" (= head), Old Slavic "??elo" (=
forehead).

Another related expression is "met hulten en bulten" (D), "m?? ujltn ??n
bujltn" (B), which is most often used to describe farmland that has been
badly ploughed, making it look like a huge washboard with many ups and
downs. In this case however, "hult(e)" has probably been derived from
"hol(te)" (D), "hollow" (E); "bult" means "bulge".

Which makes me wonder by the way, why the Downs in Southern England actually
denote a range of hills?!?

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul  5 22:43:28 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 15:43:28 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2004.07.05 (08) [A]
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUL.2004.154328.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Mark, almal,

Ek het geskryf:

>  Mark (hierbo):
>
> > Wil u aub hieroor uitbrei, Ron? Mynsinsiens het elke konsonant
noodwendig
'n
> > "default" schwa: dit moet mos uitgespreek word, n?? Die Hebreuse alfabet
> is
> > baie afhanklik daarvan, maar is dit nie beter, in letterrgrepige
verband,
> om
> > selfs die schwa by te voeg?
>
> Ja, dit glo ek dikwels ook, Mark, ook wat _-en_ en _-er_ betref.
>
> Dis belangwekkend, dat ons in Nedersassies <-el>, <-en> en <-er> skryf
maar
> dit nooit met 'n klinker uitspreek nie.  (<-en> is 'n lettergrepige [n],
[m]
> of [N]/[ng], wat van die voorafgaande konsonant afhank. <-er> en <-r> is
'n
> lettergreep met r-kleur -- "non-rhotic".)
>
> Ek weet nie of hierdie <-el>, <-en> en <-er> in Middelsassies mit schwa
word
> uitgespreek nie, of of hierdie spellings aan invloed van Duitse en
Hollandse
> spellings te wyte is.  Maar vir die huidige dialekte neem ek fonemies
> lettergrepig /-l/, /-n/ en /-r/ aan.

Hier is nog 'n paar oorweginge met betrekking tot die vra, of die
agtervoegsels _-el_, _-en_ en
_-er_ 'n klinkerfoneem het of nie.

In die geval van _-el_ sou ons s?, dat dit fonemies /-l/ (sonder
klinkerfoneem) is, omdat dit skynbaar in geen Laaglandse vari?teit met 'n
klinker uitgespreek word.  In die gevalle van _-en_ en _-er_ is ek met
betrekking tot die Nederfrankiese vari?teite (Afrikaans inbegrepe) nie so
seker nie.

(1) _-en_
Die meeste Nederfrankiese vari?teite (Hollands, Vlaams, Seelands, Afrikaans
en die Nederfrankiese dialekte van Duitsland) spreek dit _-en_ soos _-e_
(schwa [@]) geskryf uit, en in Afrikaans skryf 'n mens dit ook _-e_.  Maar
teoreties kan dit 'n sekond?r-ontwikkeling wees: /-n/ > [@n] = _-en_ > [@] >
_-e_.  In die veroostelike Nedersassiese dialekte (van die gebiedee, wat
teenswordig in Noordpole en Russies Kaliningrad is) is dit ook die geval.
(Die meeste daarvan is al uitgesterf, maar die Mennonietiese dialekte
("Plautdietsch") bestaan nog buite daardie gebiede, en hulle s'n spelling is
ook _-e_ soos in Afrikaans.)

(2) _-er_
Die meeste Nederfrankiese vari?teite (Hollands, Vlaams, Seelands, Afrikaans
en die Nederfrankiese dialekte van Duitsland) is "rhoties" (d.w.s. julle
spreek _-r_ aan die einde van 'n lettergreep uit), en daarom moet tussen die
_-r_ en 'n voorafgaande medeklinker 'n schwa uitgespreek word.  Of hierdie
schwa fonemies (d.w.s. onderl?end) of epenteties (d.w.s. re?lmatig ingevoeg)
is ... hmm ... Hoe kan ons dit uitvind?

Groete,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul  5 22:46:53 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 15:46:53 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.05 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUL.2004.154653.0700.>

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From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.05 (04) [E]

Kenneth Rohde Christiansen <kenneth.christiansen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> In short: Open source software is software of which the source is
> available to anyone (almost always for free, but that's not a
> requirement). Anyone may make modifications and/or redistribute the
> software (without fees having to be payed to the author(s)).
> --
>
> Well open source is complicated because there are various different
> licenses :) but generally it means what you said. Well, the most known
> license is the GPL which requires you to always distribute the source
> code (FOR FREE!) and if you make changes to the source (which is
> allowed) you have to distribute the source code to those changes as
> well (for free).
>
No, not for free, that's a common misconception. The point is: you have
to charge everybody equally, with no exclusion for certain fields of
endeavours. The open source definition does not say per definition that
you have to share the source for free. However, 99.99% of open source
software is distributed for free.

As, for example, the GPL says:

Preamble: [Our General Public Licenses are designed to make sure that
you have the freedom to distribute copies of free software (and charge
for this service if you wish)]

Clause 1: [You may charge a fee for the physical act of transferring a
copy] (copy meaning of the source code)

Anyway, that doesn't matter much, since virtually every bit of open
source software is distributed gratis. That means we can get the source
code, translate it to Saxon (or whatever non-represented minority
language you like), and publish the translated software (preferrably
compiled). We could for example put together an Internet suite and
translate it into Saxon. Or OpenOffice (which is like Microsoft Office).
Or both.

regards,
Henry

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul  6 14:34:55 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 07:34:55 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.06 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.073455.0700.>

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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.04 (04) [E]


  From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
  Subject: Lexicon

  Dear Lowlanders,

  Here's another question about lexical inventory in Lowlands languages.

  I am more concerned about actual, native, original, normal usage than
about
  availability of lesser-used expressions and neologisms.

  I have noticed that (again, in ordinary speech) both Lowlands Saxon (Low
  German) and Scots tend to use the same word for "hill" and "mountain":

  Lowlands Saxon: _barg_ <Barg> [ba:x]
  Scots: _hill_ ~ _hull_

  German and English, on the other hand, clearly distinguish between _H?gel_
  and _Berg_ and between "hill" and "mountain" respectively.

  Yiddish may represent an intermediate type, using _barg_ ???? (in some
  dialects _berg_ ????) for 'mountain' and its diminutive form _bergl_ ?????
  for 'hill'.

  Now, in Lowlands Saxon you can use _b?lt_ <B?lt> [bY.lt] or _kn?l_ <Kn?ll>
  [knY.l] for 'hill', but I feel that these rather denote very small hills,
  "glorified bumps," "knolls" in fact. The normal word for both "hill" and
  "mountain" is _barg_.

  Similarly, you have available the Romance-derived word _muntain_ for
  'mountain' in Scots, besides Celtic-derived _ben_ for very tall peaks of
the
  Scottish highlands. But from my reading I take it that in normal Scots
  _hill_ ~ _hull_ applies to 'mountain' as well.

  Note also that in English "hill" is of native origin while "mountain" is a
  Romance loan.

  I believe that the numerous Frisian varieties of the Netherlands and
Germany
  have similar lack of distinction.

  I keep wondering if this apparent (original?) lack of distinction is
because
  in the Lowlands you don't get anything that is taller than what we call a
  "hill." Real "mountains" are outside the original language region.
  Newcomers to Hamburg, Germany, find it rather strange to find a range of
  hills south of the southern branch of River Elbe referred to as _Harborger
  Bargen_ (LS) and _Harburger Berge_ (G). To people of the area they seem
  like mountains (at least in the olden days), and they even try to ski on
  them if there is snow in the winter. The closest real mountains are the
  Harz Mountains, that lie on the southern edge of the language area.

  I wonder if there are similar situations in other Lowlands language
  varieties, especially in the varieties of the Netherlands, Belgium and
  Northern France. I am less interested in reference to "real" ("exotic")
  mountains outside that area. I also wonder if those varieties "act"
  differently from Afrikaans, given that Afrikaans-speaking areas (i.e.,
  Southern Africa) do indeed have both hills (_heuwels_, _bulte_, _koppies_,
  _rantjies_) and mountains (_berge_, _koppe_), besides knolls (_bulties_,
  _heuwelties_).

  Thanks for thinking about it!

  Regards,
  Reinhard/Ron


Hi Ron,
In Dutchwe have: berg, heuvel, bult, top
In Flemish we have: berg, heuvle, hille, hil, bulte, ho?gte, top, ho?p,
molsho?p.
Something that is higher than its surroundings is called a "hul" (V: een hul
tubak stikt uut de pupe/een hul bo?m'/ een hul bloem' / een hul ges (=D:
gras)...)
"Knol" is only used for round roots of plants.
Everything that is higher than a 100 metres is called a "berg" in our
lowland.

groetjes
luc vanbrabant
oekene

----------

From: Peter Snepvangers <snepvangers at optushome.com.au>
Subject: Lexicon


From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
I am more concerned about actual, native, original, normal usage than about
availability of lesser-used expressions and neologisms.
I have noticed that (again, in ordinary speech) both Lowlands Saxon (Low
German) and Scots tend to use the same word for "hill" and "mountain":

Hello Ron and Lowlanders,
I asked my mum and some of her friends ( some Dutch and some Limbugers) what
they use and this was the reply. Generally for Mountain they all use Berg
(one said Bergketen). Other words used are Alp, Hanekam (for ridge), Piek ,
Spits and Naas. I think this is the same as Neus or nose. The words used for
Hill are Heuvel, Hull (not sure how spelt) and Kopp.
Cheers
Peter Snepvangers
snepvangers at optushome.com.au

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul  6 15:39:49 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:39:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.06 (02) [E]
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Folks,

With regard to words for "hill" and "mountain" we have been discussing under
"Lexicon" and "Etymology" I ought to mention that in many Lowlands Saxon
(Low German) dialects, certainly those in the Northern range, _barg_ [ba:x]
'hill/mountain' is frequently used to denote 'many' or 'much', much like
English 'a bunch of'.  This is not necessarily used with nouns that denote
items that can be heaped up.

The usual way of using it is with _'n_ (or "formally" _eyn_) 'a', but in
some dialects you can omit this; thus for example

_('n) barg b?yker_ 'many books'*
_('n) barg minschen_ 'lots of people'
_('n) barg saken_ 'many matters', 'many things'
_('n) barg t?yg_ 'a lot of fabric', 'lots of clothes'
_('n) barg t?ynkraam_ 'a bunch of nonsense'
_('n) barg spraken_ 'many languages'
_('n) barg arbayd_ 'loads of work'

* different from _'n stapel b?yker_ 'a stack of books'

However, there seem to be some restrictions of use.  It does not work with
most uncountable nouns, in which case the first choice would be _veel_
[fe:l] ~ [fE:l] 'much', 'many'; for instance

_veel water_ 'much water', 'a lot of water' (not *_('n) barg water_)
_veel sand_ 'a lot of sand' (vs _('n) barg sand_ 'a mound/heap of sand')

This includes most temporal expressions; for instance

_veel tyd_ 'a lot of time' (not *_('n) barg tyd_)
_veel~vele daag'_ 'many days' (not *('n) barg daag'_)
_veel ogenblikken_ 'many moments' (_('n) barg ogenblikken_?)

But the following sound somewhat acceptable to me:

_('n) barg jaren_ ~ _veel jaren_ 'many years'
_('n) barg maanden_ ~ _veel maanden_ 'many months'
_('n) barg weken_ ~ _veel weken_ 'many years'
_('n) barg jaarhunderden~ewen_ ~ _veel jaren~ewen_ 'many centuries'

Perhaps this is because these are definitely countable.

_('n) barg ogenblikken_ 'many moments' sounds marginal to me but may be all
right.

Theoretically, this _('n) barg_ ought not work with _arbayd_ 'work'
mentioned above, but I guess _('n) barg arbayd_ implies the sense of
countable jobs.

Incidentally, _veel_ can be used with all countable nouns as well; e.g.,
_veel b?yker_ 'many books', etc.

I believe there are similar devices in the dialects of Eastern Friesland,
using _b?lt_ 'hill', 'mound'.  Is that correct?

How about similar expressions in other Lowlands varieties?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul  6 16:01:08 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 09:01:08 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.06 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.090108.0700.>

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From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen <kenneth.christiansen at gmail.com>
Subject:

--
No, not for free, that's a common misconception. The point is: you have
to charge everybody equally, with no exclusion for certain fields of
endeavours. The open source definition does not say per definition that
you have to share the source for free. However, 99.99% of open source
software is distributed for free.
--

I was talking about the GPL here

--
Clause 1: [You may charge a fee for the physical act of transferring a
copy] (copy meaning of the source code)
--

Yes, PHYSICAL act of transferring. Ie. for instance a copy on a cd.

--
Anyway, that doesn't matter much, since virtually every bit of open
source software is distributed gratis. That means we can get the source
code, translate it to Saxon (or whatever non-represented minority
language you like), and publish the translated software (preferrably
compiled). We could for example put together an Internet suite and
translate it into Saxon. Or OpenOffice (which is like Microsoft Office).
Or both.
--

Well the idea is to get it in the official distribution

Cheers,
Kenneth
kenneth at gnu.org

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Resources

Folks,

The person Kenneth quoted above was Henry Pijffers.

Regards,
Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
Founder & Administrator, Lowlands-L
lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
http://www.lowlands-l.net

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul  6 21:06:56 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 14:06:56 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Events" 2004.07.06 (04) [D/E]
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.140656.0700.>

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: Events

I got in the announcement below.
Regards,
Roger

Beste Roger, Patrick
Hierbij een uitnodiging; Kan jij die verspreiden bij je ge?nteresseerde
vrienden, collega's?
Op 29 augustus vindt van 10u tot 12u in de bovenzalen van het kasteel van
Bokrijk,  een symposium plaats over dialecten.

Het programma omvat:

  - Gerard Rooijakkers: Anders en/ of eigen? De rol van het andere Limburg
in de eigen identiteitsconstructie. Over het thema transnationale
identiteiten in de beide Limburgen in een ruimere volksculturele context.

  - Rob Belemans: Dialectkennis en dialectbeleving in de beide Limburgen.
Over de taalgebonden aspecten op basis van de Limburg - enqu?te

  - Georg Cornelissen: de Rijnlandse dialecten: oost-oost - Limburgs? Deze
spreker verruimt het blikveld door de aangrenzende dialecten voor te stellen
vanuit hun verwantschap met de Limburgse

  Toegangsprijs: 10 euro: koffie en ticket Openluchtmuseum inbegrepen

  Het programma in het Openluchtmuseum omvat een gevarieerd aanbod van
muziek en theater in het dialect. Met een infobeurs waar geschied- en
heemkundige kringen + dialectverenigingen publicaties in het dialect te koop
aan bieden, een dialectbox en een interactief spel op en rond een
dialectkaart van beide Limburgen. Later op de dag is er een
"dialect-popfestival" met gerenommeerde groepen als de Jansse Bagge Band, G?
Reinders, Perrongeluk, Ongenode Gasten, Kate Ryan, Tony en de Hangmatten en
Neet oet Lottem.

Graag vooraf inschrijven per telefoon 011 265323, per fax 011265310 of via
email aboesmans at limburg.be

Met vriendelijke groet en dank bij voorbaat

Annick Boesmans

Conservator Openluchtmuseum Bokrijk
Domein Bokrijk - 3600 Genk
tel 32-011/265 322
fax 32-011/265 310
e-mail: aboesmans at limburg.be

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul  6 21:08:18 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 14:08:18 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.06 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.140818.0700.>

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.05 (06) [E]

Dear Sandy Fleming & All,

Subject: "Lexicon" [E]

> Some common terminology involving 'brae'.

It's no surprise to me how developed a terminology the Scots have on every
kind & context or degree of 'slope'.
is there any level place in that country at all - apart from the courtyard
before Holyrood Castle?

Yrs,
Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul  6 21:13:10 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 14:13:10 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.06 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.141310.0700.>

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: "Idiomatica" [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Idiomatica
>
> With regard to words for "hill" and "mountain" we have been discussing
under
> "Lexicon" and "Etymology" I ought to mention that in many Lowlands Saxon
> (Low German) dialects, certainly those in the Northern range, _barg_
[ba:x]
> 'hill/mountain' is frequently used to denote 'many' or 'much', much like
> English 'a bunch of'.  This is not necessarily used with nouns that denote
> items that can be heaped up.

In Scots a "bing" is a slag heap, ie the hills of slag left after many years
of mining operations. It's used copiously in Scots, usually in the plural:

bings o beuks: 'many books'*
bings o fowk: 'lots of people'
bings o 'hings: 'lots of things'
bings o claes: 'lots of clothes'
bings o langages: 'many languages'
bings o wark: 'loads of work'

but:

a heap o nonsense: 'a bunch of nonsense'

I think the reason you wouldn't use "bings" with "nonsense" is that "bings"
is used to express an abundance and so wouldn't be used with something
negative like "nonsense".

It does work with uncountable nouns:

bings o sugar: 'a lot of sugar'
bings o sand: 'a lot of sand'

However, I think it does apply only to uncountable nouns that could actually
be heaped up, so not "*bings o watter".

I think large quantities of time are most commonly expressed by saying that
they follow one after the other:

years on end: 'many years'
months on end: 'many months'
weeks on end: 'many weeks'
days on end: 'many days'
oors on end: 'many hours'

but not for units smaller than this (it might raise a laugh to say, "He can
sit thare an read for meenits on end"  :)

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul  6 21:29:39 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 14:29:39 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.06 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.142939.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Sandy listed the following Scots phrases under "Idiomatica":

> years on end: 'many years'
> months on end: 'many months'
> weeks on end: 'many weeks'
> days on end: 'many days'
> oors on end: 'many hours'

Of course, "on end" in this sense is used in English as well, probably
denoting "an endless string of" or "endless" originally.

I often think about this and wonder if this "on" is unrelated to the usual
word "on," if it is related to Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _aan_ and German
_ohne_, meaning 'without'.  In LS you can say _aan end_ also, meaning
"without end," 'endless(ly)', German _endlos_ (also _ohne Ende_).

Of course, then this particular "on end" would have a different origin from
that of "on end" as in "My hair(s) stood at end."

I can find nothing in etymological notes and in Old English that would
support this.  However, "on end" in the sense of "without end" seems a bit
strange, doesn't it?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul  6 21:44:23 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 14:44:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.06 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.144423.0700.>

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: "Lexicon" [E]

> From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.05 (06) [E]
>
> Dear Sandy Fleming & All,
>
> Subject: "Lexicon" [E]
>
> > Some common terminology involving 'brae'.
>
> It's no surprise to me how developed a terminology the Scots have on every
> kind & context or degree of 'slope'.
> is there any level place in that country at all - apart from the courtyard
> before Holyrood Castle?

It's not called the Lowlands for nothing! There are many flat, arable areas.

Large flat areas are called "plains" as in English, eg the Lothian Plain.

A low-lying region amongst hills (a hollow as in Sleepy Hollow) is called a
"howe", eg the Howe o Fife, the Howe o Auchterless.

A small, flat low-lying area, perhaps as small as a few fields, is called a
"hauch", usually written "Haugh" on maps, eg the North Haugh in St Andrews,
Fife.

A fertile low-lying region in a glaciated valley with a river running
through the middle is called a "carse", eg the Carse o Gowrie.

A flat arable area that has been turned into fields is called "meedaes"
(cognate with English "meadows"), eg "The Meedaes" - the plot of fields to
the west of my own village.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul  6 22:04:32 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:04:32 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.06 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.150432.0700.>

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From: Gavin Falconer <Gavin.Falconer at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.06 (07) [E]

Ron said:

"I often think about this and wonder if this "on" is unrelated to the usual
word "on," if it is related to Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _aan_ and German
_ohne_, meaning 'without'.  In LS you can say _aan end_ also, meaning
"without end," 'endless(ly)', German _endlos_ (also _ohne Ende_)."

Scots of course has its own privative prefix wan-, as in wanhowp, wanchance,
etc.  I don't think it's used productively any more, except perhaps by Scots
who know German ohn- and wish to create a reformed anti-Latinate language.

--
Gavin

Gavin Falconer

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Ah!  Thanks, Gavin!  You made my penny drop.  ;-)

Old English has _wan_ 'lacking' (= 'without'), and _wana_ 'lack', and I
assume "want" (_wan+t_ "lack"/"absence" > "need") is related to these.

Modern Lowlands Saxon (Low German) has for instance _wanschapen_
['va.nSQ:pm] for 'ugly'.  (I take it that this _schapen_ is related to
'create' and in this case refers to 'proper/pleasing form'.)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Wim <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.06 (07) [E]

>>From wim verdoold  wkv at home.nl

Hi

about "on end" how about "un ending"   as  a root for  that?

wim

http://members.home.nl/wkv/index.html

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul  7 03:14:22 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 20:14:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2004.07.06 (10) [D/E]
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.201422.0700.>

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From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2004.06.30 (03) [D/E]

Hallo Henno,

Vlamingen gebruiken gij/ge als gewone aanspreekvorm. Wel stel ik vast
dat heel wat jongere Vlamingen problemen beginnen te krijgen met de
sterke vormen met verlengde klinker in de verleden tijd. Ik hoor vaak
vormen met korte klinker in de tweede persoon, bv. ge nam(t). Er lijkt
steeds meer onzekerheid te groeien over deze werkwoordsvormen. Toen ik
onlangs een kennis van mij, een jongedame die  pas afgestudeerd was als
'regentes Nederlands' (d.i. een lerares voor het lager secundair
onderwijs), erop wees dat 'gij hadt' met dt diende te worden geschreven,
geloofde ze me niet en bekeek ze me of ik pas van de planeet Mars
gekomen was. Het kostte me heel wat moeite om haar er uiteindelijk van
te overtuigen dat ik het bij het rechte eind had.

Hartelijk,

Roger Hondshoven

-----Original Message-----


From: Stella en Henno <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.06.30 (01) [E]

Tony schreef:

> read in a national news paper). One thing he would not teach, however,

> was how to conjugate verbs with "gij". This is, in my opinion, very
unfortunate
> as you *will* hear it everyday in Flanders, so it might be useful to
> know, even if you don't actually use it yourself. (And if anyone knows

> of a book or website with it, please contact me offlist.)

Wel, ik reageer even op de lijst zelf, aangezien andere leerders er
wellicht baat bij hebben. Ik heb er even de ANS (algemene Nederlandse
spraakkunst) bijgehaald, en die vermeldt (2de druk) de (regelmatige)
vormen op pagina 83 en 84. In de tegenwoordige tijd: de -t vorm als bij
"hij" (de t verdwijnt niet in de inversie): ge loopt, loopt ge? (zowel
enkelvoud als meervoud) [as an historical aside: gij/ge is the same as
English "ye", (and Northern Dutch jij, Low Saxon ji etc.) and originally
a plural form (like "vous" in French); originally it also was "jullie
komt"..] ge vindt, vindt ge? etc. In de verleden tijd wordt zwak gewoon
-te of -de gebruikt: ge werkte, ge leefde. Sterk behoudt men een -t,
hetgeen er vreemd uitziet: gij vondt, gij liept, gij kwaamt (met een uit
het meervoud afkomstige lange a, vergelijk wij kwamen). Als enkelvoud en
meervoud sterk zijn en een verschillende lengte hebben geldt dit steeds,
dus ook "ge naamt" bijv. (nam - namen). Steeds geldt dit voor enkelvoud
en meervoud.

Groeten,

Henno Brandsma

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

The North Saxon dialects of Lowlands Saxon (Low German) retain the old
personal pronoun system (with the regular/weak verb _leyren_ /leir-/ 'to
learn', 'to teach' as example):

PRESENT:
Singular:
   1st: ik ... (ik leyr < ik leyre)
   2nd: du ...st (du leyrst)
   3nd: hey/sey/et~it~dat ...t (hey/sey/et~it~dat leyrt)
Plural:
   1st: wy ...t ~ ...en (wy leyrt ~ wy leyren)
   2nd: jy ...t ~ ...en (jy leyrt ~ jy leyren)
   3nd: sey ...t ~ ...en (sey leyrt ~ sey leyren)

PRETERITE:
Singular:
   1st: ik ... (ik leyr < leyrde)
   2nd: du ...st (du leyrst < leyrdest)
   3nd: hey/sey/et~it~dat ... (hey/sey/et~it~dat leyr < leyrde)
Plural:
   1st: wy ...en (wy leyren < leyrden)
   2nd: jy ...en (jy leyren < leyrden)
   3nd: sey ...en (sey leyren < leyrden)

_Jy_ [(d)ji:] (< _gy_), objective _ju_ [(d)ju:], still functions as the
second person plural pronoun, while the Low Franconian, English and Scots
equivalents shifted, becoming the second person polite pronoun (both
singular and plural), and in English and Scots finally the general second
person plural (English "you," gradually dropping objective "ye," and Scots
generalizing to _ye_), almost completely relacing familiar singular "thou"
(objective "thee").

North Saxon:
   ik - my ([?Ik] - [mi:])
   du - dy ([du:] - [di:])
   m. hey - em ([hE.I] ~ [?E.m])
   f. sey - er ([zE.I] - [?E.3`])
   n. it ~ et ~ dat - it ~ et ~ dat ([?It] ~ [?Et] ~ [dat])
   wy - uns ~ us ([vi:] - [?U.ns] ~ [?U.s])
   jy - ju ([(d)ji:] ~ [(d)ju:])
   sey - j?m ~ jem ([zE.I] - [(d)jY.m] ~ [(d)jE.m])

Under German influence, _Sey_ (<Se>, originally 'they') has come to be used
as the polite second person pronoun (singular and plural), but most people
do not use expected _J?m_ ~ _Jem_ in the objective case; they use _Sey_,
influenced by German accusative _Sie_.  "Purists" like myself say _J?m_ or
_Jem_ in such cases.  In fact, especially many urbanites are gradually
disregarding even non-polite objective _j?m_ ~ _jem_ and use _sey_ instead.
I have to admit that hearing and reading this makes me cringe, even *if* I
try not to think in prescriptive terms.

When polite pronouns where used before the 20th century (which was reserved
to addressing a small number of "higher-ups") it was _Jy_ (with the
predictable objective form _Ju_, see above).

As in German, talking down to "underlings" was also possible before the 20th
century (typically used by aristocrats, squires and their kin in addressing
peasants).  In those cases the third person pronouns were used.  (See
above.)  So, a male would be addressed as _hey_ (German _er_), a female as
_sey_ (German _sie_) and several people as _sey_ (German _sie_).

Polite forms used to be used very rarely, very sparingly, much less than in
German, only in addressing outsiders of "high" standing (if they were
addressed in LS).  Certainly, parents and grandparents were not addressed
using polite pronouns, which until about the middle of the 19th century this
*was* the custom in "better" German-speaking families, using also "Mister,"
"Mistress" and _Miss_ (e.g., _Herr Papa_ 'father', _Frau Mama_ 'mother',
_werte Frau Gro?mama_ 'dear grandmother', _das Fr?ulein Tochter_ lit. "Miss
Daughter" = 'the young lady' [the latter used by servants]).  This was alien
to LS-speaking communities, thoroughly _geel_ "yellow" (= "High" German).
Even now, to many people, especially those in rural areas, any use of polite
pronouns is _geel_.  Many enjoy the use of "the old language" in part
because it allows you to disregard social class in most cases without danger
of causing offense.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul  7 03:16:35 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 20:16:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.06 (11) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.201635.0700.>

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From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.05 (01) [E]

Dear all,

General Dutch distinguishes between 'heuvel' ("hill") and 'berg'
("mountain"). Flemish, indeed, has lost 'heuvel'. All mountains and hills,
whether low or tall, are indiscriminately called 'berg'. In some placenames,
however, 'hil/hul' has been preserved: e.g. Lotenhulle (in East-Flanders).

Kind regards,

Roger

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul  7 14:40:04 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 07:40:04 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.07 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUL.2004.074004.0700.>

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From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.04 (04) [E]

Lowlands-L wrote:
For me because of  my surname all this talk about mountain terms is very
interesting :-)

Even if it has been semantically demoted

David Barrow

>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Lexicon
>
>Dear Lowlanders,
>
>Here's another question about lexical inventory in Lowlands languages.
>
>I am more concerned about actual, native, original, normal usage than about
>availability of lesser-used expressions and neologisms.
>
>I have noticed that (again, in ordinary speech) both Lowlands Saxon (Low
>German) and Scots tend to use the same word for "hill" and "mountain":
>
>Lowlands Saxon: _barg_ <Barg> [ba:x]
>Scots: _hill_ ~ _hull_
>
>German and English, on the other hand, clearly distinguish between _H?gel_
>and _Berg_ and between "hill" and "mountain" respectively.
>
>Yiddish may represent an intermediate type, using _barg_ ???? (in some
>dialects _berg_ ????) for 'mountain' and its diminutive form _bergl_ ?????
>for 'hill'.
>
>Now, in Lowlands Saxon you can use _b?lt_ <B?lt> [bY.lt] or _kn?l_ <Kn?ll>
>[knY.l] for 'hill', but I feel that these rather denote very small hills,
>"glorified bumps," "knolls" in fact.  The normal word for both "hill" and
>"mountain" is _barg_.
>
>Similarly, you have available the Romance-derived word _muntain_ for
>'mountain' in Scots, besides Celtic-derived _ben_ for very tall peaks of
the
>Scottish highlands.  But from my reading I take it that in normal Scots
>_hill_ ~ _hull_ applies to 'mountain' as well.
>
>Note also that in English "hill" is of native origin while "mountain" is a
>Romance loan.
>
>I believe that the numerous Frisian varieties of the Netherlands and
Germany
>have similar lack of distinction.
>
>I keep wondering if this apparent (original?) lack of distinction is
because
>in the Lowlands you don't get anything that is taller than what we call a
>"hill."  Real "mountains" are outside the original language region.
>Newcomers to Hamburg, Germany, find it rather strange to find a range of
>hills south of the southern branch of River Elbe referred to as _Harborger
>Bargen_ (LS) and _Harburger Berge_ (G).  To people of the area they seem
>like mountains (at least in the olden days), and they even try to ski on
>them if there is snow in the winter.  The closest real mountains are the
>Harz Mountains, that lie on the southern edge of the language area.
>
>I wonder if there are similar situations in other Lowlands language
>varieties, especially in the varieties of the Netherlands, Belgium and
>Northern France.  I am less interested in reference to "real" ("exotic")
>mountains outside that area.  I also wonder if those varieties "act"
>differently from Afrikaans, given that Afrikaans-speaking areas (i.e.,
>Southern Africa) do indeed have both hills (_heuwels_, _bulte_, _koppies_,
>_rantjies_) and mountains (_berge_, _koppe_), besides knolls (_bulties_,
>_heuwelties_).
>
>Thanks for thinking about it!
>
>Regards,
>Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Tom <jmaguire at pie.xtec.es>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.06 (05) [E]

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>

>Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.05 (06) [E]
>
>Dear Sandy Fleming & All,
>
>Subject: "Lexicon" [E]
>
>>Some common terminology involving 'brae'.
>
>It's no surprise to me how developed a terminology the Scots have on every
>kind & context or degree of 'slope'.
>is there any level place in that country at all - apart from the courtyard
>before Holyrood Castle?
>
>Yrs,
>Mark

Well consider yourself lucky to live after the ice age when the glaciers
rounded down the Scottish mountains which were then higher than the Alps.

Regards,

Tom [Maguire]

----------

From: marco [evenhuiscommunicatie] <marco at evenhuiscommunicatie.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.06 (11) [E]

Roger Hondshoven wrote:

> General Dutch distinguishes between 'heuvel' ("hill") and 'berg'
> ("mountain"). Flemish, indeed, has lost 'heuvel'. All mountains and hills,
> whether low or tall, are indiscriminately called 'berg'. In some
placenames,
> however, 'hil/hul' has been preserved: e.g. Lotenhulle (in East-Flanders).

Zeelandic has the words 'berg' (pronounciation mostly 'barg') and '(h)il'.
'Berg' is used for almost every bump in the landscape, but is used
particularly for artificial mouds that were erected as a safe have during
floodings and (viking) raids in the 10th-13th century. Some of them have
eroded and are only 50cm high now, others have changed very little and still
have their original, impressive dimensions (usually between 20 and 30 meters
in diameter, 2-12 meters high) and are a very characteristic feature in the
landscape of some parts of Zeeland. On the isle of Walcheren, about 20 of
these 'bergen' still exist.
More information (in Dutch) and a picture can be found at
http://www.hetzeeuwselandschap.nl/kaart/index.php?kaart=23

The word '(h)il' can be used for a proper hill, but is mostly used for high
sand dunes along the coast. In the coastal town of Domburg for instance, one
of the most prominent dunes in the village is called 'den 'ogen 'il' (the
high hill).
On the isle of Goeree-Overflakkee, a 'hil' is one of the words for a farm. I
bet this goes back to the days when houses, farmhouses, etc. where built on
a mound for protection against floodings.

Regards,

Marco

----------

From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Lexicon [E/N]

Dear Ruth/Mark & all,

The word 'haugh(s)' is extremely common in
Northumberland. It is understood as a flat area of
land usually adjacent to a river. I suspect it is an
area of flood plain that is highly fertile which our
Anglian ancestors made particular note of, hence the
number of them across Northumberland. There is also
the word 'heugh', which I've forgotten the meaning of
but will research it.

On hills, the word 'bank' is often used where a hill
has a road, footpath or steps going up/down.

Gan canny,

Glenn Simpson

----------

From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.06 (08) [E]

> From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
> Subject: "Lexicon" [E]
>
>> From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
>> Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.05 (06) [E]
>>
>> Dear Sandy Fleming & All,
>>
>> Subject: "Lexicon" [E]
>>
>>> Some common terminology involving 'brae'.
>>
>> It's no surprise to me how developed a terminology the Scots have on
>> every
>> kind & context or degree of 'slope'.
V:schuinte / helling / glooiing /
>> is there any level place in that country at all - apart from the
>> courtyard
>> before Holyrood Castle?

In Flemish there is a disappeard word, "bra" that had the meaning of
"berm"(=E:verge).
We still use the word the verb "brauwen" in " 't land brauwen" (= to
make a winterbed of the soil in the garden, to make verges)
"een brauw" was a little path on a hight.
Could that be related to our eyebrow (V: wenkbrauw)?

> It's not called the Lowlands for nothing! There are many flat, arable
> areas.
>
> Large flat areas are called "plains" as in English, eg the Lothian
> Plain.
 From French: la plaine
V: vlakte
>
> A low-lying region amongst hills (a hollow as in Sleepy Hollow) is
> called a
> "howe", eg the Howe o Fife, the Howe o Auchterless.
>
> A small, flat low-lying area, perhaps as small as a few fields, is
> called a
> "hauch", usually written "Haugh" on maps, eg the North Haugh in St
> Andrews,
> Fife.
>
> A fertile low-lying region in a glaciated valley with a river running
> through the middle is called a "carse", eg the Carse o Gowrie.
>
> A flat arable area that has been turned into fields is called "meedaes"
> (cognate with English "meadows"), eg "The Meedaes" - the plot of
> fields to
> the west of my own village.
V: meers / bilk / (wei)land /
>
> Sandy
> http://scotstext.org/
groetjes
luc vanbrabant
oekene

----------

From: Brian Holton <ctbah at polyu.edu.hk>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.05 (05) [E]

I've just had a squint at the Scots Thesaurus (Scottish National Dictionary
Association: Aberdeen, 1990), where i see pp42-45 are devoted to
topographical  vocabulary. Well worth a look, as is  the CASD/DoST site at
http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/, where you can enter "hill" or "mountain" and
search for all occurences in definitions - which pretty much gives you and
English-Scots dictionary, too.

brian

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul  7 14:42:22 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 07:42:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.07 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUL.2004.074222.0700.>

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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.06 (02) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Idiomatica
>
> Folks,
>
> With regard to words for "hill" and "mountain" we have been discussing
> under
> "Lexicon" and "Etymology" I ought to mention that in many Lowlands
> Saxon
> (Low German) dialects, certainly those in the Northern range, _barg_
> [ba:x]
> 'hill/mountain' is frequently used to denote 'many' or 'much', much
> like
> English 'a bunch of'.  This is not necessarily used with nouns that
> denote
> items that can be heaped up.
>
> The usual way of using it is with _'n_ (or "formally" _eyn_) 'a', but
> in
> some dialects you can omit this; thus for example
>
> _('n) barg b?yker_ 'many books'*
> _('n) barg minschen_ 'lots of people'
> _('n) barg saken_ 'many matters', 'many things'
> _('n) barg t?yg_ 'a lot of fabric', 'lots of clothes'
> _('n) barg t?ynkraam_ 'a bunch of nonsense'
> _('n) barg spraken_ 'many languages'
> _('n) barg arbayd_ 'loads of work'
>
> * different from _'n stapel b?yker_ 'a stack of books'
>
> However, there seem to be some restrictions of use.  It does not work
> with
> most uncountable nouns, in which case the first choice would be _veel_
> [fe:l] ~ [fE:l] 'much', 'many'; for instance
>
> _veel water_ 'much water', 'a lot of water' (not *_('n) barg water_)
> _veel sand_ 'a lot of sand' (vs _('n) barg sand_ 'a mound/heap of
> sand')
>
> This includes most temporal expressions; for instance
>
> _veel tyd_ 'a lot of time' (not *_('n) barg tyd_)
> _veel~vele daag'_ 'many days' (not *('n) barg daag'_)
> _veel ogenblikken_ 'many moments' (_('n) barg ogenblikken_?)
>
> But the following sound somewhat acceptable to me:
>
> _('n) barg jaren_ ~ _veel jaren_ 'many years'
> _('n) barg maanden_ ~ _veel maanden_ 'many months'
> _('n) barg weken_ ~ _veel weken_ 'many years'
> _('n) barg jaarhunderden~ewen_ ~ _veel jaren~ewen_ 'many centuries'
>
> Perhaps this is because these are definitely countable.
>
> _('n) barg ogenblikken_ 'many moments' sounds marginal to me but may
> be all
> right.
>
> Theoretically, this _('n) barg_ ought not work with _arbayd_ 'work'
> mentioned above, but I guess _('n) barg arbayd_ implies the sense of
> countable jobs.
>
> Incidentally, _veel_ can be used with all countable nouns as well;
> e.g.,
> _veel b?yker_ 'many books', etc.
>
> I believe there are similar devices in the dialects of Eastern
> Friesland,
> using _b?lt_ 'hill', 'mound'.  Is that correct?
>
> How about similar expressions in other Lowlands varieties?
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron
Hi Ron,
To denote "many" or "much" in Flemish we use the following  words...
veel/vele
veel tijd, veel goeste, vele verdragen, veel kinders, ...
vele vele jaren

bergen
bergen werk, ne berg problem'...

hoop, hopen
hopen werk, nen ho?p volk, nen ho?p problem',...
(ho?p= E: a bunch of... / hoop= E: hope)

zee
'n ze? van tijd,

zonder ende/einde
een wandelinge zonder ende, ne speech zonder ende

een mondje = een beetje (=E: some)
Ik spreek al een mondje Frans

groetjes
luc vanbrabant
oekene

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul  7 16:00:54 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 09:00:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.07 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUL.2004.090054.0700.>

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From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.06 (07) [E]

I've found in 'The Dream of the Rood'
'??t w?s g?ara i?   - ic ??t g?ta geman
??t w?s ?h?awan  holtes on ende'

where 'on ende' is glossed as 'from the edge' .

Since 'on end'  means 'consecutively' I think 'many years on end' in the
sense of one year from the edge of the previous year  could quite easily
evolved to mean 'many consecutive years'

David Barrow

>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Etymology
>
>Sandy listed the following Scots phrases under "Idiomatica":
>
>>years on end: 'many years'
>>months on end: 'many months'
>>weeks on end: 'many weeks'
>>days on end: 'many days'
>>oors on end: 'many hours'
>
>Of course, "on end" in this sense is used in English as well, probably
>denoting "an endless string of" or "endless" originally.
>
>I often think about this and wonder if this "on" is unrelated to the usual
>word "on," if it is related to Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _aan_ and German
>_ohne_, meaning 'without'.  In LS you can say _aan end_ also, meaning
>"without end," 'endless(ly)', German _endlos_ (also _ohne Ende_).
>
>Of course, then this particular "on end" would have a different origin from
>that of "on end" as in "My hair(s) stood at end."
>
>I can find nothing in etymological notes and in Old English that would
>support this.  However, "on end" in the sense of "without end" seems a bit
>strange, doesn't it?
>
>Regards,
>Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.06 (09) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Ah!  Thanks, Gavin!  You made my penny drop.  ;-)
>
> Old English has _wan_ 'lacking' (= 'without'), and _wana_ 'lack', and I
> assume "want" (_wan+t_ "lack"/"absence" > "need") is related to these.
>
> Modern Lowlands Saxon (Low German) has for instance _wanschapen_
> ['va.nSQ:pm] for 'ugly'.  (I take it that this _schapen_ is related to
> 'create' and in this case refers to 'proper/pleasing form'.)
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron
Hi Ron,
In Dutch we also have  words left  with  "wan-"
wanbesef / wanhof / wandaad / wangeboorte / wansucces / wanvoeding /
wanhoop...
and several more.
groetjes
luc vanbrabant
oekene

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks a lot for your interesting points above, David and Luc!

David, under "Lexicon" you wrote today:

> For me because of  my surname all this talk about mountain terms is very
> interesting :-)
>
> Even if it has been semantically demoted

Perhaps it consoles you that Gothic _bairgz_, Old Norse _berg_ ~ _bjarg_,
English (_beor?_ >) "barrow" (~ "bargh" ~ "barf"), W. Frisian (/berg/)
_berch_, Lowlands Saxon (_berg_ >) _barg_, Low Franconian _berg_, German
_Berg_, etc. for 'mountain' and 'hill' raises fascinating etymological
questions, taking us all over the Indo-European map.  Here just a snippet or
two.

These tend to be seen as linked with Celtic: Old Irish _brigh_ 'mountain'
(and I wonder about Scottish Gaelic _br?g_ 'heap', 'pile', even though
Alexander McBain links it with English "brick").

Furthermore, there seem to be links with Slavonic; e.g., Old Slavonic
_br?g?_ 'height', 'mountain' (i.e., "elevated place"), also Russian _bereg_
?????, Ukrainian _bereg_ ?????, Czech _b?eh_, Polish _brzeg_, Bulgarian
_brjag_ ????, etc., 'bank', 'shore' (i.e., "rising/raised ground").

Going even farther afield, there is the reconstructed (Indo-)Aryan word
*_bhergh_ 'height'.  Sanskrit _br'hant_ 'high' tends to be shown as
connected with it and "barrow" etc.  I am tempted to go as far as linking it
with the Sanskrit root _bhar-_ 'to bear', 'to lift', 'to raise', 'to carry',
and the extension _bharat_ 'bearing', 'carrying', 'lifting', 'that which
bears' > 'India', probably also with Germanic *_ber-_ > English (_beran_ >)
"to bear," Gothic _bairan_, and Indo-Iranian: Persian (Farsi) _bordan_ ????,
(< /bur-/), etc., all in the sense of 'to bear', and numerous derivatives
denoting 'to bear/carry/behave oneself', 'to give birth' and 'to be born'.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul  7 20:39:42 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 13:39:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2004.07.07 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUL.2004.133942.0700.>

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From: jkrause <jkrause at old-sod-shanty.com>
Subject: Grammar

Ron wrote
> When polite pronouns where used before the 20th century (which was
reserved
> to addressing a small number of "higher-ups") it was _Jy_ (with the
> predictable objective form _Ju_, see above).

You know, in my albeit limited experience of hearing my ancestral
Plautdietsch used in conversation, I don't believe I've ever heard the
polite forms Jy (Jie) Jum (J?n) used at all.  This is understandable
considering that when Low German was used at all, it was used among close
friends and among family, or later private conversations between husband and
wife.  If folk wanted to be formal, they switched to German, as during
worship services in church, or English.

Jim Krause

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul  7 20:42:09 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 13:42:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.07 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUL.2004.134209.0700.>

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From: jkrause <jkrause at old-sod-shanty.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Dear Ron,
    Your discussion on the use of the word _barg_ (Boajch in Mennonite
Plautdietsch) reminds me of the colloquial use of the English word heap; as
in
a heap of books
a heap of trouble

Jim Krause

----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.07 (01) [E]

Dear Tom,

Subject: Lexicon

You Patriot, you!

> Well consider yourself lucky to live after the ice age when the glaciers
> rounded down the Scottish mountains which were then higher than the Alps.

By the way, do you use the word coom or comb or something like it (Welsh
Cwm) in Scots?
I ask because it is used in Afrikaans (kom - kommetjie) for a short, broad
or hanging valley, of which we have very few (no glacial geomorphology). I
have no idea how it came here; certainly not through the English.
Another use, excuse the frank inclination of my tongue, is for the aptly
named 'kommetjiegat jakkals', a form of jackal unendowed with buttocks, but
instead a broad shallow crater with the anus nestled in the middle.

Regards, Mark

P.S. We had the Dwyka formation, & of course, Antarctic glaciation ground
better than any Arctic variety, & earlier. So there!

Dear Marco,

Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" >
> Zeelandic has the words 'berg' (pronounciation mostly 'barg') and '(h)il'.
> 'Berg' is used for almost every bump in the landscape, but is used
> particularly for artificial mouds that were erected as a safe have during
> floodings and (viking) raids in the 10th-13th century. Some of them have
> eroded and are only 50cm high now, others have changed very little and
still
> have their original, impressive dimensions (usually between 20 and 30
meters
> in diameter, 2-12 meters high) and are a very characteristic feature in
the
> landscape of some parts of Zeeland. On the isle of Walcheren, about 20 of
> these 'bergen' still exist.

> On the isle of Goeree-Overflakkee, a 'hil' is one of the words for a farm.
I
> bet this goes back to the days when houses, farmhouses, etc. where built
on
> a mound for protection against floodings.

In our family the word for these artificial mounds is 'terp - terpen'
Is there nothing in a Lowlands Language covering this word?

Yrs,
Mark

Dear Glen

Subject: Lexicon

> The word 'haugh(s)'

I have read the word, but I dare not try to pronounce it.
For this reason alone, I presume it might have some association with  the
Afrikaans 'hoewe = agricultural holding - allotment' & 'hof = courtyard -
garden'?

Yrs,
Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul  7 20:44:08 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 13:44:08 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.07 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUL.2004.134408.0700.>

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.07 (03) [E]

Dear David

 Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

> I've found in 'The Dream of the Rood'
> '??t w?s g?ara i?   - ic ??t g?ta geman
> ??t w?s ?h?awan  holtes on ende'
>
> where 'on ende' is glossed as 'from the edge' .

Well, I don't altogether agree with that gloss
Going strictly with Afrikaans I would read it as 'oneindig = unending or
endlessly, without end'
I read the 'on' as meaning 'un' or without.

Yrs Sincerely,
Mark

----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.06 (09) [E]

Dear Gavin

 Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

> Scots of course has its own privative prefix wan-, as in wanhowp,
wanchance,
> etc.  I don't think it's used productively any more, except perhaps by
Scots
> who know German ohn- and wish to create a reformed anti-Latinate language.

I believe you are wrong, & that it is fundamental to your old language. It,
or the cognate 'waan' is still a necessary tool in Afrikaans.

Waan = fancy, delusion, idolum (logic), hallucination, conceit, error.
as in: Gewaan = fancy, waanbeeld = fantasy, delusion, waandenkbeeld = false
notion, waangeloof = superstition, waanhoop = despair, waansin = insanity
(that old one), waanvoorstelling = hallucination, waanwys = conceited.

On the other hand, 'wan', as a prefix simply meaning 'without' (as I take it
in Old English & Old Northumbrian) takes simply pages of the dictionary,
from:

'Wanaangepas = maladjusted (the psychological condition - again)', through
'wanhoop = desparation', to 'wantrouheid = distrustfulness'.

I do remember C S Lewis using the word 'wanhope' in context, but such a
scholar would have more & older words in his working vocab than most of us.

Yrs Sincerely,
Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul  7 21:11:31 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 14:11:31 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Name the language" 2004.07.07 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUL.2004.141131.0700.>

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From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.07 (03) [E]

I've been asked for an authoritative (!) pronunciation guide for a
charity which is producing an audioversion of a work by J.R.R. Tolkien.
The elvish isn't a problem ... mooreeffoc is a bit challenging ... but I
have my own opinion.

However, one of the phrases I just don't remember from the work.  Can
anyone spot the language?  And provide a pronunciation?

twe tusend Johr

With best wishes,

Pat
--
Pat Reynolds
pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk
   "It might look a bit messy now,
                    but just you come back in 500 years time"
   (T. Pratchett)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Name the language

Hey, Pat!

> twe tusend Johr

If it were _twe dusend Johr_ it would be "perfect" Lowlands Saxon (Low
German), North Saxon dialect, with German-based spelling (for my _twey
dusend jaar_) meaning 'two thousand years'.

The pronunciation is [tvE.I du:znt 'j@:3`], if you rely on (non-rhotic)
English approximation: "tvey dooznt yawr" (or far-Northern dialects "tvey
dooznt jawr" -- "tvey dooznt yaw" or "tvey dooznt jaw" being close enough
for most of our Irish and North American friends), Dutch-based spelling
_twei doeznt (d)joar_.

Now, rather than believing that this is a Lowlands Saxon loan phrase in
Elvish ;-) I assume that Tolkien read the Lowlands Saxon story _Von dem
Machandelboom_ ("(About) the Juniper Tree") in the "German" original in the
Grimm Brothers' collection
(e.g., http://home.t-online.de/home/rudolf-steiner/machandl.htm) and,
probably influenced by his knowledge of German (_tausend_ 'thousand') or
being influenced by the spelling of English "thousand," he got the second
word a tad incorrect.

The story begins:
"Dat is nu all lang heer, wol twe dusend Johr ..."

My spelling:
"Dat is nu al lang her, wol twey dusend jaar ..."

In German translation:
"Das ist nun sehr lange her, wohl zweitausend Jahre ..."
(Should be "Das ist nun SCHON lange her, wohl zweitausend Jahre ...")

In English translation:
"Long, long ago, some two thousand years or so ..."
(Should be literally "This/It is now a long time ago already, probably two
thousand years ...")

I hope this helped.

Cheerio!
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul  8 14:33:13 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:33:13 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Name the language" 2004.07.01 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUL.2004.073313.0700.>

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From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Name the Language" 2004.07.07


Hi Lowlanders!

Here I go inserting my proboscis dilettantis into fine distinctions I know
little about:

Pat Reynolds asked a fascinating question about the J.R.R. Tolkien usage of

> twe tusend Johr<

to which Ron Hahn responded that, were the initial consonent of the second
word voiced, i.e., "d" instead of "t", it would be perfect Lower Saxon.

I have no doubt that Ron is Right as Rain (or Ragnarok). However, while
living in Stade, Niederelbe, I attended weekly meetings of the local Platt
club, and they occasionally published articles in Lower Saxon in the
newspapers.

Their word for "thousand" was indeed "tusend" with an unvoiced initial
consonent.
They were, or are, indeed aware that the entire Altes Land voices the first
letter, thus "dusend". Stade, it was speculated, was owned by the Swedes
during most of the Thirty Years' War, hence the Swedish "tusen" may have
intruded via superstrate influence.

In fact, there still seem to be significant variances of pronunciation
across the Lower Elbe behind the dikes; Buxtehude and Cuxhaven are as
different, to my uneducated ear, as Philadelphia is to Richmond. But, once
again, I am a rank amateur.

I am preparing a paper about Appalachian, and will post the first draft here
before proceeding further. As to British lowlands (Southeastern) origins,
that is correct. As to Ulster elements as well, correct again.

Beste Groeten,

Arthur Jones
arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com

----------

From: ezinsser at tiscali.co.za <ezinsser at tiscali.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Name the language" 2004.07.07 (07) [E]

Hi julle,

Pat Reynolds asked about the language that Tolkien used.
If you ask me, the guy used good ole' Bloemfontein Afrikaans
and merely changed the spelling to look exotically Elvish.

> twe tusend Johr

Is merely 'twee duisend jaar' and pronounced [twe: d at is@nt j:ar]

Tata!
Elsie Zinsser

----------

From: Szelog, Mike <Mike.Szelog at citizensbank.com>
Subject: LL-L "Name the language" 2004.07.07 (07) [E]

Hi Pat and all,

Excellent answer as always, Ron!

I believe the language Tolkien uses this phrase in is the one spoken by the
Rohirim (sp!). They are the people with the horses from whom Gandalf obtains
"Shadowfax" (again, if I remember correctly - it's been a while since I've
actually read the books).

These people Tolkien loosely bases on Germanic/Scandinavian traditions and I
believe the language they speak is based somewhat on Anglo-Saxon with other
elements of Germanic languages. I believe it's also the one that's written
in "Angerthas" runes.

Mike S
Manchester, NH

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.07 (03) [E]

I've been asked for an authoritative (!) pronunciation guide for a
charity which is producing an audioversion of a work by J.R.R. Tolkien.
The elvish isn't a problem ... mooreeffoc is a bit challenging ... but I
have my own opinion.

However, one of the phrases I just don't remember from the work.  Can
anyone spot the language?  And provide a pronunciation?

twe tusend Johr

With best wishes,

Pat
--
Pat Reynolds
pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk
   "It might look a bit messy now,
                    but just you come back in 500 years time"
   (T. Pratchett)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Name the language

Hey, Pat!

> twe tusend Johr

If it were _twe dusend Johr_ it would be "perfect" Lowlands Saxon (Low
German), North Saxon dialect, with German-based spelling (for my _twey
dusend jaar_) meaning 'two thousand years'.

The pronunciation is [tvE.I du:znt 'j@:3`], if you rely on (non-rhotic)
English approximation: "tvey dooznt yawr" (or far-Northern dialects "tvey
dooznt jawr" -- "tvey dooznt yaw" or "tvey dooznt jaw" being close enough
for most of our Irish and North American friends), Dutch-based spelling
_twei doeznt (d)joar_.

Now, rather than believing that this is a Lowlands Saxon loan phrase in
Elvish ;-) I assume that Tolkien read the Lowlands Saxon story _Von dem
Machandelboom_ ("(About) the Juniper Tree") in the "German" original in the
Grimm Brothers' collection
(e.g., http://home.t-online.de/home/rudolf-steiner/machandl.htm) and,
probably influenced by his knowledge of German (_tausend_ 'thousand') or
being influenced by the spelling of English "thousand," he got the second
word a tad incorrect.

The story begins:
"Dat is nu all lang heer, wol twe dusend Johr ..."

My spelling:
"Dat is nu al lang her, wol twey dusend jaar ..."

In German translation:
"Das ist nun sehr lange her, wohl zweitausend Jahre ..."
(Should be "Das ist nun SCHON lange her, wohl zweitausend Jahre ...")

In English translation:
"Long, long ago, some two thousand years or so ..."
(Should be literally "This/It is now a long time ago already, probably two
thousand years ...")

I hope this helped.

Cheerio!
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Name the language" 2004.07.07 (07) [E]

That helpped a great deal!

Twe dusend thanks (to mingle languages/dialects!)

The context has given me a clue as to where in the book (The Tolkien
Reader) the phrase might be used ('On Fairy Stories') - and, indeed, it
is in a paragraph referring to the Grimm version of 'The Juniper Tree'.

Pat
--
Pat Reynolds
pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk
   "It might look a bit messy now,
                    but just you come back in 500 years time"
   (T. Pratchett)

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul  8 14:35:02 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:35:02 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2004.07.01 (02) [A]
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUL.2004.073502.0700.>

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2004.07.05 (08) [A]

Beste Ron,

Subject: Orthography

> > > Wil u aub hieroor uitbrei, Ron? Mynsinsiens het elke konsonant
>>> noodwendig 'n "default" schwa: dit moet mos uitgespreek word, n??

Ek sal nie u inset herhaal nie; die wat belang stel het seker soos ek dit
gestoor het. Dankie.
Ek het bra min om by te voeg. u Besef seker lankal u kan dieper in die
onderwerp in waad as die meeste van ons kan swem!

Die Uwe,
Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul  8 14:41:38 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:41:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2004.07.01 (03) [D]
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUL.2004.074138.0700.>

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From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2004.07.06 (10) [D/E]

Hallo Henno,

In mijn vorige posting vermelddeik het geval van de jongedame die een
probleem had met de spelling van 'gij hadt'. De reden voor haar
onzekerheid/onwetendheid dient wellicht gezocht te worden in het feit
dat, naar ik vermoed,  de ge/gij-vormen en de bijbehorende
werkwoordsvormen in het onderwijs niet meer onderwezen worden en dat
enkel je/jij aangeleerd wordt. Daarbij wordt over het hoofd gezien dat
ge/gij in Vlaanderen nog springlevend zijn. Ik meen te mogen stellen dat
meer dan 95 % van de Vlamingen in ongedwongen taalgebruik onder vrienden
enkel ge/gij gebruiken. Alleen in toespraken wordt vrij algemeen
overgeschakeld naar je.  Hetzelfde verschijnsel merken we op in
interviews die politici toestaan: bijna uitsluitend maken ze gebruik van
'je' als onbepaald voornaamwoord. Mijns inziens is er in Vlaanderen een
grote passieve tolerantie gegroeid ten opzichte van 'je'. Opvallend is
echter dat de beklemtoonde vorm 'jij' haast systematisch vermeden wordt.
Tegenover de beklemtoonde objectvorm 'jou' bestaat helemaal een
duidelijke aversie. Het woord is vrijwel onbestaand in algemeen Belgisch
Nederlands. Dat leidt er dan toe dat in dergelijke situaties
overgeschakeld wordt naar 'u', de normale objectvorm bij 'gij'. Op die
manier worden helaas twee systemen door elkaar gehaspeld.

Hartelijk,

Roger

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul  8 14:43:06 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:43:06 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.01 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUL.2004.074306.0700.>

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From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Lexicon [E/N/A]

Mark,

'Haugh', I think, is pronounced like your 'hof' but
there again I'm no linguist! Interesting, there seem
to be some similarities between the languages.

Another topograpical term  in my part of the world is
'hoe', as in my home town Prudhoe 'the hill or
heights' of Prudda's people or it could mean 'Proud'
(Prood in Northumbrian) heights'. Hoe is normally an
elevation on a spur of a river apparently.

Keep ahaad,
Glenn

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul  8 14:51:24 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:51:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.01 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUL.2004.075124.0700.>

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From: Gavin Falconer <Gavin.Falconer at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.07 (06) [E]

Mark said:

"I believe you are wrong, & that it is fundamental to your old language. It,
or the cognate 'waan' is still a necessary tool in Afrikaans."

It depends how old the language is.  It would be conceivable for a person to
have a fairly good knowledge of modern Scots without ever having encountered
wan-, except perhaps in wanchancie (I hope I don't offend anyone with my low
standards).  I always assumed that most wan- words started out as nouns from
which adjectives were sometimes derived whereas the un- words were mainly
negations of adjectives.  Perhaps I'm being influenced by my knowledge of
German here, in which case A'll awa dree ma wanweird.  Ill- or mis- would be
much more indispensible elements in Scots.

According to the DSL at http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/, wan- ceased to be
productive in word formation except in Scots and Northern English after the
Middle English period, and I suspect that Scots simply followed suit after a
delay, with it falling together with un- in many cases.

The number of Afrikaans and German words using the element could be to do
with their lack of direct Latinate loans (as opposed to calques) and
creation of abstract concepts using native elements, which brings me back to
my original point.  It wouldn't surprise me in the least if someone such as
Hately Waddell had coined a few words with wan-, but if one represents Scots
as the hybrid Latinised Germanic language that it is rather than reforms it
so that it's a purely Germanic one, there's no need for the like.

--
All the best,

Gavin

Gavin Falconer

"Tharfor wordly happe es ay in dout
Whilles dam fortune turnes hir whele about."

----------

From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.07 (06) [E]

Re: on end

I had always thought it mean something along the lines of "end to end."  For
example, "He reads mystery novels for hours on end."  I'm visualizing
several hours lined up end "on end" (one after the other) with the meaning
of "consecutively."

Mark Brooks

----------

From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.07 (06) [E]

>From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.07 (03) [E]
>
>Dear David
>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology"
>
>>I've found in 'The Dream of the Rood'
>>'??t w?s g?ara i?   - ic ??t g?ta geman
>>??t w?s ?h?awan  holtes on ende'
>>
>>where 'on ende' is glossed as 'from the edge' .
>
>Well, I don't altogether agree with that gloss
>Going strictly with Afrikaans I would read it as 'oneindig = unending or
>endlessly, without end'
>I read the 'on' as meaning 'un' or without.
>
>Yrs Sincerely,
>Mark
>
>----------
>
Mark,

My English is pretty basic but I've added a few previous lines and tried
a rough translation

...........................   H?lendes tr?ow,
........................   Saviour's tree (cross)
o? ??t ic geh?rde   ??t hit hl?o?rode     until I heard        that it spoke
ongan ?? word sprecan   wudu  s?lesta   began then words to speak:
best of woods
??t w?s g?ara i? - ic ??t g?ta geman     that was years ago - I still
remember that-
??t ic w?s ?h?awan holtes on ende'       that I was hewn down  from the
forest's edge

However don't take my word for it. I got the gloss for 'on ende' from
Mitchell and Robinson's A Guide to Old English.

And here's an interlinear translation

http://www.flsouthern.edu/eng/abruce/rood/ROODTEXT/ALL%7E1.HTM

see lines 25 to 29

David Barrow

----------

From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.07 (03) [E]

>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Etymology
>
>Thanks a lot for your interesting points above, David and Luc!
>
>David, under "Lexicon" you wrote today:
>
>>For me because of  my surname all this talk about mountain terms is very
>>interesting :-)
>>
>>Even if it has been semantically demoted
>
>Perhaps it consoles you that Gothic _bairgz_, Old Norse _berg_ ~ _bjarg_,
>English (_beor?_ >) "barrow" (~ "bargh" ~ "barf"), W. Frisian (/berg/)
>_berch_, Lowlands Saxon (_berg_ >) _barg_, Low Franconian _berg_, German
>_Berg_, etc. for 'mountain' and 'hill' raises fascinating etymological
>questions, taking us all over the Indo-European map.  Here just a snippet
or
>two.
>
>These tend to be seen as linked with Celtic: Old Irish _brigh_ 'mountain'
>(and I wonder about Scottish Gaelic _br?g_ 'heap', 'pile', even though
>Alexander McBain links it with English "brick").
>
>Furthermore, there seem to be links with Slavonic; e.g., Old Slavonic
>_br?g?_ 'height', 'mountain' (i.e., "elevated place"), also Russian _bereg_
>?????, Ukrainian _bereg_ ?????, Czech _b?eh_, Polish _brzeg_, Bulgarian
>_brjag_ ????, etc., 'bank', 'shore' (i.e., "rising/raised ground").
>
>Going even farther afield, there is the reconstructed (Indo-)Aryan word
>*_bhergh_ 'height'.  Sanskrit _br'hant_ 'high' tends to be shown as
>connected with it and "barrow" etc.  I am tempted to go as far as linking
it
>with the Sanskrit root _bhar-_ 'to bear', 'to lift', 'to raise', 'to
carry',
>and the extension _bharat_ 'bearing', 'carrying', 'lifting', 'that which
>bears' > 'India', probably also with Germanic *_ber-_ > English (_beran_ >)
>"to bear," Gothic _bairan_, and Indo-Iranian: Persian (Farsi) _bordan_
????,
>(< /bur-/), etc., all in the sense of 'to bear', and numerous derivatives
>denoting 'to bear/carry/behave oneself', 'to give birth' and 'to be born'.
>
>Regards,
>Reinhard/Ron
>
Ron

'bear' = carry from OE 'beran' from IE  *_bher ; 'barrow' = mountain
from IE *_bhergh. Some common earlier root linking them  under the theme
of 'elevation'? Which would be interesting as there is another 'barrow'
(as in wheelbarrow) from OE *bearwe from OE 'beran' from  IE *_bher. You
could say things have come full circle. :-)

David Barrow

----------

From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.07 (03) [E]

A point I should have included in my message below about 'on end'
Neither of the two dictionaries where I found the expression has it as
meaning 'without end'  One says 'consecutively' and the other
continuously without pause
(between one day/year/whatever and the next). Neither of these
definitions necessarily implies 'non-stop'

'Susan used to disappear for days on end. Nobody knew where she went'

The idea of 'without end' is perhaps a more recent semantic development

David Barrow

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul  8 22:13:14 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:13:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Name the language" 2004.07.01 (06) [E]
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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Name the language" 2004.07.01 (01) [E]

Hi Everybody,

 Subject: LL-L "Name the language"

> Pat Reynolds asked about the language that Tolkien used.
> If you ask me, the guy used good ole' Bloemfontein Afrikaans
> and merely changed the spelling to look exotically Elvish.
>
> > twe tusend Johr
>
> Is merely 'twee duisend jaar' and pronounced [twe: d at is@nt j:ar]

>If it wasn't for the extraordinary breadth of Tolkien's Learning, I would
go straight for Elsie Zinsser's
interpretation. He couldn't use the Afrikaans orthography, since that would
lead the English reader to pronounce it  'twi: daiz at nde djo:h' - Eina!

Otherwise, I wouldn't challange the thesis that he used these exact words
because he read those exact words (& studied them) in Grimm. This was his
way.

This phrase (if he didn't use it again elsewhere) is quoted from his essay
'Tree & Leaf' in a paragraph discussing the impact of the 'Old' in
fairytales, & expanding on the "--- beauty & horror of 'The Juniper Tree
(Von dem Machandelbloom) ---" & it's impact on him. It is abundently clear
that this tale is not couched in Standard German.

By the way: His Elvish 'Middle Earth' was not the only fields of his
wandering. He most likely never used the 'Elvish' or 'Middle Earth' mode
outside of those writings dedicated to them; not even 'Smith of Wootton
Major'.

Yrs,
Mark

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Name the language

Mark,

You wrote above:

> This phrase (if he didn't use it again elsewhere) is quoted from his essay
> 'Tree & Leaf' in a paragraph discussing the impact of the 'Old' in
> fairytales, & expanding on the "--- beauty & horror of 'The Juniper Tree
> (Von dem Machandelbloom) ---" & it's impact on him. It is abundently clear
> that this tale is not couched in Standard German.

Far be it from me to nitpick, especially in the case of you gender-deprived,
albeit learned Afrikaans-speaking lot, but that would be _Von de
Machandelbloom_ (my spelling _Von dey machandel-bloum_) "(About) The Juniper
Flower/Blossom" (feminine), rather than the original _Von dem Machandelboom_
(my spelling _Von dem machandel-boum_) "(About) The Juniper Tree"
(masculine).

What a difference a slip of the key can make!

Poking fun aside, the objective masculine form _dem_ is no longer used in
the majority of today's dialects.  It's now _den_, _d'n_ or just _'n_ (the
latter directly attached to the preceding word, _von'n_ ~ _vun'n_ ~ _van'n_,
because _von 'n_ would be "of/from a").  I write it _d'n_ to distinguish it
from indefinite (_eyn_ >) _'n_ [n], because initial /d/ regularly
assimilated to a preceding consonant, as also in many Afrikaans dialects;
e.g., _van die_ -> _vannie_, Lowlands Saxon (Low German) (fem.) _von dey_ ->
_vonney_ ['fOnEI] ~ _vonne_ ['fOne], (neut.) _von dat_ -> _vonnat_ ['fOnat]
~ _von't_ [fO.nt], (masc.) _von den_ -> _vonnen_ -> _von'n_ [fO.n:].

Consequently, _machandel_ 'juniper' is pronounced _machannel_ (or _machanl_)
in most dialects of today, and in my spelling it's all right to write it
_machannel_.

Elsie wrote:

> If you ask me, the guy used good ole' Bloemfontein Afrikaans
> and merely changed the spelling to look exotically Elvish.

Yep!  Goes to show you just how similar some of those Lowlands varieties can
be to each other, especially if you write them more alike.  {Hint, hint,
blink, blink ...}

A LS speaker has no problem understanding Afrikaans _twee duisend jaar_,
certainly not in writing.

Greutn oen koemplmentn,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul  8 22:15:44 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:15:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.01 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUL.2004.151544.0700.>

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Etymology

Beste Ron,


Re "on end", I'd like to add that in Dutch you could say "aan een stuk".
"Hij kon praten, uren aan een stuk". "Zij kon
uitgaan, dagen aan een stuk", which has evolved from "aan ??n stuk", meaning
without interruption. Time is here viewed as an
interval, litterally comprising "one piece", having only a starting and
ending point, with no discontinuity.

Maybe "on end" reflects the idea that the next time period starts
immediately when the previous one has ended, so there is no
interruption. A bit like elephants in a circus, each one holding the tail of
his predecessor with his own trunk. So "hours on
end", is a set of hours, each individual hour piled on top of the previous
one...making both ends meet, so to speak *s*.

Kind greetings,


Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.01 (05) [E]

'on' as meaning 'un' or without.
>>
>>Yrs Sincerely,
>>Mark
>>
>>----------
>
>Mark,
>
>My English is pretty basic but I've added a few previous lines and tried
>a rough translation
>
That should say my Old English is pretty basic

David Barrow

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul  8 22:29:43 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:29:43 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.01 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUL.2004.152943.0700.>

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From: Stella en Henno <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.07 (05) [E]

> > On the isle of Goeree-Overflakkee, a 'hil' is one of the words for a
farm.
> I
> > bet this goes back to the days when houses, farmhouses, etc. where built
> on
> > a mound for protection against floodings.
>
> In our family the word for these artificial mounds is 'terp - terpen'
> Is there nothing in a Lowlands Language covering this word?
>
> Yrs,
> Mark

To get to the word "terp": this actually doesn't mean "hill" or "artificial
mount" originally, although
it has come to mean this in Dutch, eg.
The word comes from Old Frisian, where "terp" is the regular development of
a Germanic
stem *thurpi, from which also derives Dutch "dorp", German "Dorf", older
English -thorp (in place names only nowadays, maybe in dialects as well?)
etc, = "village". this is probably due to the fact that in Frisian areas a
village had such a mount with a church on it, very prominently in its
centre. So the mount came to be known as "village". In modern West Frisian
we even borrowed the Dutch word "dorp" (as doarp [dwarp]), and only use
"terp" in the artificial mount meaning only.
In North Frisian the word is still used (saarep/taarep on Amrum/Feer resp.
eg.) in the village meaning.

Regards,

Henno Brandsma

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Good one, as usual, Henno!

> The word comes from Old Frisian, where "terp" is the regular development
of
> a Germanic
> stem *thurpi, from which also derives Dutch "dorp", German "Dorf", older
> English -thorp (in place names only nowadays, maybe in dialects as well?)
> etc, = "village". this is probably due to the fact that in Frisian areas a
> village had such a mount with a church on it, very prominently in its
> centre. So the mount came to be known as "village". In modern West Frisian
> we even borrowed the Dutch word "dorp" (as doarp [dwarp]), and only use
> "terp" in the artificial mount meaning only.

In most Lowlands Saxon (Low German) dialects of the North it's _d?rp_,
though some have _dorp_.

In Denmark and in the partly Jutish-speaking (nowadays Danish-speaking) and
partly LS-speaking (and now German-speaking) areas of Germany you find place
place names ending with _-torp_ or (metathesized) _(s)trup_, _-drup_ and
_-rup_; e.g., Br?dstrup, Vamdrup, Otterup, Dollerup, H?rup, S?rup, Wanderup.

There's also metatheized _-throp_ in England.

> In North Frisian the word is still used (saarep/taarep on Amrum/Feer resp.
> eg.) in the village meaning.

th (?) > North Frisian /s/

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul  9 14:27:01 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 07:27:01 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.09 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUL.2004.072701.0700.>

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.01 (05) [E]

Dear Gavin Falconer

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.07 (06) [E]

> According to the DSL at http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/, wan- ceased to be
> productive in word formation except in Scots and Northern English after
the
> Middle English period, and I suspect that Scots simply followed suit after
a
> delay, with it falling together with un- in many cases.

> The number of Afrikaans and German words using the element could be to do
> with their lack of direct Latinate loans (as opposed to calques) and
> creation of abstract concepts using native elements, which brings me back
to
> my original point.  It wouldn't surprise me in the least if someone such
as
> Hately Waddell had coined a few words with wan-, but if one represents
Scots
> as the hybrid Latinised Germanic language that it is rather than reforms
it
> so that it's a purely Germanic one, there's no need for the like.

Thanks for that. Mind you, it is largely the Germanic elements of Scots that
so attract me!

Yrs,

Mark

Dear Mark Brooks

Subject: LL-L "Etymology"
Re: on end

> I had always thought it mean something along the lines of "end to end."
For
> example, "He reads mystery novels for hours on end."  I'm visualizing
> several hours lined up end "on end" (one after the other) with the meaning
> of "consecutively."

Yes; what tickles me is the figure of speech - why it was phrased that way.
For instance, a Korean who had got rather far in English without ever
speaking to an English-speaker shared this problem with me: As he understood
it, 'end' is a terminus - OK, how can it go with 'end-less'? Surely 'on end'
means it stops!

Eventually I got him around to our way of thinking, but he had the
expression of one 'over-persuaded that black is white'. I think I had just
betrayed one of his insights into the language.

Yrs Sincerely,
Mark Dreyer

> >>I've found in 'The Dream of the Rood'
> >>'??t w?s g?ara i?   - ic ??t g?ta geman
> >>??t w?s ?h?awan  holtes on ende'

> >>where 'on ende' is glossed as 'from the edge' .

> >Well, I don't altogether agree with that gloss

> My English is pretty basic but I've added a few previous lines and tried
> a rough translation
>
> ...........................   H?lendes tr?ow,
> ........................   Saviour's tree (cross)
> o? ??t ic geh?rde   ??t hit hl?o?rode     until I heard        that it
spoke
> ongan ?? word sprecan   wudu  s?lesta   began then words to speak:
> best of woods
> ??t w?s g?ara i? - ic ??t g?ta geman     that was years ago - I still
> remember that-
> ??t ic w?s ?h?awan holtes on ende'       that I was hewn down  from the
> forest's edge

> However don't take my word for it. I got the gloss for 'on ende' from
> Mitchell and Robinson's A Guide to Old English.

Apologies to you then, & to them, but I hold with my objection about the
present usage of 'hours on end' meaning an 'extended period'. I would still
look for a structural motivation in earlier language for the phrase 'on end'
to meen 'without end'.

Thanks for the interlinear translation.

Thanks also for the translation. I find great pleasure in doing that too.
Here is the same bit from mine, in Afrikaans.

                        '-----    Heiland se boom
           Toe hoor ek    hoe hyg dit;
    beginne spreek,    die saligste van houd,
  "Jare uitgedagte,    so onthou ek
is ek van die woud    se wand weggekap---" '

Yrs sincerely,
Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul  9 15:09:55 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:09:55 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.09 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUL.2004.080955.0700.>

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From: Liza du Plooy <lizaduplooy at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.06 (02) [E]


Ron wrote:

>The usual way of using it is with _'n_ (or "formally" _eyn_) 'a', but in
>some dialects you can omit this; thus for example
>
>_('n) barg b?yker_ 'many books'*
>_('n) barg minschen_ 'lots of people'
>_('n) barg saken_ 'many matters', 'many things'
>_('n) barg t?yg_ 'a lot of fabric', 'lots of clothes'
>_('n) barg t?ynkraam_ 'a bunch of nonsense'
>_('n) barg spraken_ 'many languages'
>_('n) barg arbayd_ 'loads of work'
>
>* different from _'n stapel b?yker_ 'a stack of books'

I don't know if it's just the way I speak Afrikaans, but I would use "baie"
for nearly every example you gave:

baie boeke
baie mense
baie sake / baie dinge / baie goeters
baie materiaal / baie klere
* 'n spul nonsens
baie tale
baie werk

I wouldn't not hesitate to use "'n berg werk" in the sense of "ek het 'n
berg huiswerk om te doen" (I have a mountain of homework to do).

A stack of books in Afrikaans is also "'n stapel boeke"

>_veel water_ 'much water', 'a lot of water' (not *_('n) barg water_)
>_veel sand_ 'a lot of sand' (vs _('n) barg sand_ 'a mound/heap of sand')

I'd say
baie water
'n hoop sand

>How about similar expressions in other Lowlands varieties?

Not quite the same thing, but I thought these might be of interest while we
are on the subject of expression incorporating mountains/hills. I looked in
my 1961 edition of the "Afrikaanse Spreekwoordeboek en die Engelse
Ekwivalent" by Kritzinger, de Villiers and Pienaar and found these:

'n Berg van 'n molshoop maak: Baie oordryf: To make mountains out of
mole-hills.
As die berg nie na Mohammed wil kom nie, moet Mohammed na die berg gaan: 'n
Mens moet die mindere wees as 'n ander nie wil toegee nie: If the mountain
won't come to Mohammet, Mahommet must go to the mountain.
Die berg het 'n muis gebaar: Groot dinge is verwag en net iets kleins het
gebeur: The mountain brought forth a mouse.
Sy hare het te berge gerys: Hy het baie groot geskrik: His hair stood on
end.
Iemand goue berge beloof: Iemand die mooiste beloftes maak: To promise the
moon.
Berge versit: Baie uitrig: To move mountains.
And my favourite one (from the old wives tale that babies are little baboons
caught in the mountains and then shaved)
Berge toe gaan: 'n Babetjie ryker word: To be visited by the stork, to have
an addition to the family.

So what I'd like to know is whether other lowlands languages have similar
expression. I'd be very interested to know if any of these are unique to
Afrikaans.

On a personal note, I'd like to share with the list that I have been
accepted to study linguistics at the University of Texas this coming
semester!

Liza du Plooy


----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Liza:


> On a personal note, I'd like to share with the list that I have been
accepted
> to study linguistics at the University of Texas this coming semester!

That's great news, Liza.  Congratulations!  Soon you'll put us all to shame.
:-)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul  9 16:57:38 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:57:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Education" 2004.07.09 (03) [E]
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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.09 (02) [E]

Liza said: "I have been accepted > to study linguistics at the
University of Texas this coming semester!"

Excellent!  UT is where I graduated from with a BA in linguistics in
1984.  At the time it was among the top 3-5 schools in the field of
linguistics in the U.S.  But, don't let the year of graduation fool you.  I
didn't start college until I was 25, and I crammed 4 years into 9 ;-).
Congratulations.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Education

Folks,

Talking about education, I think it would be a great idea if we compiled
display lists of programs teaching Lowlands languages to non-native
speakers.  In the case of non-power languages (Scots, Northumbrian, Lowlands
Saxon, Limburgish, Appalachian, etc.) this would be *any* program.  We could
also include (and mark accordingly) any programs that deal with Lowlands
languages and cultures as significant minor components, such as Lowlands
Saxon within Neerlandistics and Germanistics programs, Afrikaans as a major
area in a linguistics program, English dialects within English departments,
Lowlands literature within comparative literature programs, Lowlands history
within history programs, Lowlands arts and architecture within art history
programs, etc.

I frequently receive inquiries about such educational opportunities, so this
is a needed information service.

You could send such information to me (sassisch at yahoo.com), and I will see
to it that it be incorporated in resource lists at our website.

Please include the following information if possible:

1. Names of institution (or web-based course) and department or division
2. Language(s) and/or related discipline(s) taught
3. Number of units/terms
4. Characteristics, structure and types of media
5. Prerequisits
6. Mailing address
7. Email address
8. Website URL

Thanks in advance!
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul  9 20:43:45 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 13:43:45 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.09 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUL.2004.134345.0700.>

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From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.09 (01) [E]

>From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.01 (05) [E]
>
>Dear Gavin Falconer
>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.07 (06) [E]
>
>>According to the DSL at http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/, wan- ceased to be
>>productive in word formation except in Scots and Northern English after
>>
>the
>
>>Middle English period, and I suspect that Scots simply followed suit after
>a
>
>>delay, with it falling together with un- in many cases.
>
>>The number of Afrikaans and German words using the element could be to do
>>with their lack of direct Latinate loans (as opposed to calques) and
>>creation of abstract concepts using native elements, which brings me back
>>
>to
>
>>my original point.  It wouldn't surprise me in the least if someone such
>as
>
>>Hately Waddell had coined a few words with wan-, but if one represents
>>
>Scots
>
>>as the hybrid Latinised Germanic language that it is rather than reforms
>>
>it
>
>>so that it's a purely Germanic one, there's no need for the like.
>
>Thanks for that. Mind you, it is largely the Germanic elements of Scots
that
>so attract me!
>
>Yrs,
>
>Mark
>
>Dear Mark Brooks
>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology"
>Re: on end
>
>>I had always thought it mean something along the lines of "end to end."
>>
>For
>
>>example, "He reads mystery novels for hours on end."  I'm visualizing
>>several hours lined up end "on end" (one after the other) with the meaning
>>of "consecutively."
>
>Yes; what tickles me is the figure of speech - why it was phrased that way.
>For instance, a Korean who had got rather far in English without ever
>speaking to an English-speaker shared this problem with me: As he
understood
>it, 'end' is a terminus - OK, how can it go with 'end-less'? Surely 'on
end'
>means it stops!
>
>Eventually I got him around to our way of thinking, but he had the
>expression of one 'over-persuaded that black is white'. I think I had just
>betrayed one of his insights into the language.
>
>Yrs Sincerely,
>Mark Dreyer
>
>>>>I've found in 'The Dream of the Rood'
>>>>'??t w?s g?ara i?   - ic ??t g?ta geman
>>>>??t w?s ?h?awan  holtes on ende'
>
>>>>where 'on ende' is glossed as 'from the edge' .
>
>>>Well, I don't altogether agree with that gloss
>
>>My English is pretty basic but I've added a few previous lines and tried
>>a rough translation
>>
>>...........................   H?lendes tr?ow,
>>........................   Saviour's tree (cross)
>>o? ??t ic geh?rde   ??t hit hl?o?rode     until I heard        that it
>>
>spoke
>
>>ongan ?? word sprecan   wudu  s?lesta   began then words to speak:
>>best of woods
>>??t w?s g?ara i? - ic ??t g?ta geman     that was years ago - I still
>>remember that-
>>??t ic w?s ?h?awan holtes on ende'       that I was hewn down  from the
>>forest's edge
>
>>However don't take my word for it. I got the gloss for 'on ende' from
>>Mitchell and Robinson's A Guide to Old English.
>
>Apologies to you then, & to them, but I hold with my objection about the
>present usage of 'hours on end' meaning an 'extended period'. I would still
>look for a structural motivation in earlier language for the phrase 'on
end'
>to meen 'without end'.

The basic idea of days/hours/years etc on end is that there are several
of them with no break from on to the next that is the following one
starts 'from the edge' of the previous one. I think perhaps the fact
that number of days etc is never a specific number is what has led it
to be sometimes  used for periods without end .  But we would never use
'on end'  for  an  endless period  that  included  interruptions:  every
other day.  Or put another way the 'on end' part of the phrase indicates
its consecutiveness not its endlessness.

>Thanks for the interlinear translation.
>
>Thanks also for the translation. I find great pleasure in doing that too.
>Here is the same bit from mine, in Afrikaans.
>
>                        '-----    Heiland se boom
>           Toe hoor ek    hoe hyg dit;
>    beginne spreek,    die saligste van houd,
>  "Jare uitgedagte,    so onthou ek
>is ek van die woud    se wand weggekap---" '
>
>Yrs sincerely,
>Mark
>
I know close to zero Afrikaans, which version did you translate it from?
I'm trying to work out which of the words means 'hewn down'  weggekap?

David Barrow

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

David wrote:

> ...........................   H?lendes tr?ow,
> ........................   Saviour's tree (cross)
> o? ??t ic geh?rde   ??t hit hl?o?rode     until I heard        that it
spoke
> ongan ?? word sprecan   wudu  s?lesta   began then words to speak:
> best of woods
> ??t w?s g?ara i? - ic ??t g?ta geman     that was years ago - I still
> remember that-
> ??t ic w?s ?h?awan holtes on ende'       that I was hewn down  from the
> forest's edge

Here's my wild stab at an Old Saxon translation:

H?liandes b?m (= kr?ci)
and that ik gih?rde that it r?thion
afh?bbade th?r word gispr?kan holte s?ligste
that uuas for g?rta ? ik farsinnare noh that
that ik uuas ?hauwon fan des holtes (~ uualdes) rand (~ and ~ s?m)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul  9 21:21:07 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 14:21:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.09 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUL.2004.142107.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Literature

Folks,

Does any of you have the words of the old (somewhat gruesome) Frisian ballad
_A redder tr?d a bai un a daans_ (or was it _A redder tr?d un a daans met a
baai_?) and can share it with me/us?

I learned some of the verses in my teen years and have forgotten them almost
totally.  I imagine this would be interesting material for many of us.

Any annotation or translation would be appreciated also.

Regards and thanks,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul  9 22:22:09 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:22:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Education" 2004.07.09 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUL.2004.152209.0700.>

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From: Leslie Decker <lekkermeisje at earthlink.net>
Subject: LL-L "Education" 2004.07.09 (03) [E]

Congrats Liza!

And I have a B.A. in linguistics from UT from 1998, and am currently an
M.A. student there in Foreign Language Education (ESL/EFL).  If you
speak either German or Dutch and are interested in a conversation
group,  we have a Deutschuebende Gesellschaft every Wednesday evening at
Scholz Biergarten, and a Nederlands Borreluurtje every other Tuesday at
various locations (not so many of us, so we like to vary it!) Beginners
welcome! Email me privately if you're interested in any of these
activities, or info about Austin or UT in general.

Leslie Decker
leslie at volny.cz

>From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
>Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.09 (02) [E]
>
>Liza said: "I have been accepted > to study linguistics at the
>University of Texas this coming semester!"
>
>Excellent!  UT is where I graduated from with a BA in linguistics in
>1984.  At the time it was among the top 3-5 schools in the field of
>linguistics in the U.S.  But, don't let the year of graduation fool you.  I
>didn't start college until I was 25, and I crammed 4 years into 9 ;-).
>Congratulations.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Jul 10 16:49:11 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:49:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Name the language" 2004.07.10 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUL.2004.094911.0700.>

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From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Name the language" 2004.07.01 (06) [E]

Dear All,

I'm not sure whether the way I'm taking this thread is within the scope
of LL-L: the remit there seems to imply that it's the _real_ languages
and cultures of the Lowlands that are to be discussed.  However, I don't
think that anyone would argue that Tolkien, born in Bloemfontain,
ancestrally from the West Midlands and Germany, is a Lowlands Author.
His invented languages Quenya and Sindarin (there is no 'Elvish' any
more than there is 'Germanic' or 'Semitic') are largely inspired by
Welsh and Finnish, so not particularly 'Lowlands'.

Mark's comment that
> He most likely never used the 'Elvish' or 'Middle Earth' mode
>outside of those writings dedicated to them; not even 'Smith of Wootton
>Major'.
>
I wonder what he means by 'mode'.  If he means 'language', then he's
right, Sindarin and Quenya are limited to Middle Earth - the only
exception I can think is his Valedictory Lecture, which concludes with a
short piece of poetry which he dismisses as 'Nonsense', just as (with
the same humorous and ironic intent) that he has just dismissed some old
English poetry as 'language'.

Best wishes,

Pat
--
Pat Reynolds
pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk
   "It might look a bit messy now,
                    but just you come back in 500 years time"
   (T. Pratchett)

----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Name the language" 2004.07.01 (06) [E]

Dear Ron,

Subject: Name the language

Erm, gender? What's that?

> Far be it from me to nitpick, especially in the case of you
gender-deprived,
> albeit learned Afrikaans-speaking lot, but that would be _Von de
> Machandelbloom_ (my spelling _Von dey machandel-bloum_) "(About) The
Juniper
> Flower/Blossom" (feminine), rather than the original _Von dem
Machandelboom_
> (my spelling _Von dem machandel-boum_) "(About) The Juniper Tree"
> (masculine).

> What a difference a slip of the key can make!

I type it as I read it, from the book, 'TREE AND LEAF Including the poem
'Mythopoeia': JRR Tolkien Unwin Paperbacks 2nd Edition 1988. P32: "(Von dem
Machandelbloom)"

Now I, trying to write convincing High German, & since the word for juniper
I know is 'machholder" would rather have written 'Von dem Machholderbaum'
and preferably, by contraction, 'Vom Machholderbaum.' That, Ron, is why I
decided it wasn't Standard High German. Eh?

> Consequently, _machandel_ 'juniper' is pronounced _machannel_ (or
_machanl_)
> in most dialects of today, and in my spelling it's all right to write it
> _machannel_.

> Yep!  Goes to show you just how similar some of those Lowlands varieties
can
> be to each other, especially if you write them more alike.  {Hint, hint,
> blink, blink ...}

Hoor, Hoor!

> A LS speaker has no problem understanding Afrikaans _twee duisend jaar_,
> certainly not in writing.

Groete en Komplimente

Mark

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Name the language

Haai, Mark!

> I type it as I read it, from the book, 'TREE AND LEAF Including the poem
> 'Mythopoeia': JRR Tolkien Unwin Paperbacks 2nd Edition 1988. P32: "(Von
dem
> Machandelbloom)"

Oops!  So then it was the author's error.  I can assure you that it is _Von
dem Machandelboom_ as firmly as that it is _twe dusend Johr_ (rather than
_twe tusend Johr_).

> Now I, trying to write convincing High German, & since the word for
juniper
> I know is 'machholder" would rather have written 'Von dem Machholderbaum'
> and preferably, by contraction, 'Vom Machholderbaum.' That, Ron, is why I
> decided it wasn't Standard High German. Eh?

Oops again!  Perhaps your Afrikaans- and German-influenced North German
(Saxon) roots are showing.  The German word is _Wacholder_ with a "v" sound,
while the Saxon one is _Machandel_.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Jul 10 16:51:16 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:51:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.10 (02) [A/E]
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUL.2004.095116.0700.>

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.09 (02) [E]

Beste Liza

Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica"

> I don't know if it's just the way I speak Afrikaans, but I would use
"baie"
> for nearly every example you gave:

Pardon the interjection, Liza, but Ron is surely referring to hyperbole
here. I also would simply refer to all of the following in terms of 'baie',
but for - oordrewing n?? - I would say,

 baie boeke - 'n stapel boeke
baie mense - 'n trop mense
baie sake / baie dinge / baie goeters - 'n moeras sake? dinge / goeters vir
Afrika!
baie materiaal / baie klere - pakhuise vol materiaal / kaste klere
'n spul nonsens
baie tale / 'n Babel se tale
baie werk / hope werk

> On a personal note, I'd like to share with the list that I have been
> accepted to study linguistics at the University of Texas this coming
> semester!

Geluk, Liza, en aanhou wen!

Die Uwe,
Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Jul 10 17:08:22 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:08:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.10 (03) [A/E/F]
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUL.2004.100822.0700.>

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.01 (05) [E]

Dear Gavin,

LL-L "Etymology"

> The number of Afrikaans and German words using the element could be to do
> with their lack of direct Latinate loans (as opposed to calques)

You have me there, only I would rather say, on behalf of Afrikaans at least,
'scorn' of (unnecessary Latinate constructions) In Afrikaans, native
elements, is the way to go.

Same to yourself,
Mark
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Mark,

Subject: LL-L "Etymology"
Re: on end

> I had always thought it mean something along the lines of "end to end."
For
> example, "He reads mystery novels for hours on end."  I'm visualizing
> several hours lined up end "on end" (one after the other) with the meaning
> of "consecutively."

What tickles me is the 'on' which I would like to read as 'un-' or as in
Afrikaans, 'on-'

Yrs,
Mark

-----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.01 (08) [E]

Beste Stella en Henno

Subject: LL-L "Lexicon"

> To get to the word "terp": this actually doesn't mean "hill" or
"artificial
> mount" originally, although
> it has come to mean this in Dutch, eg.
> The word comes from Old Frisian, where "terp" is the regular development
of
> a Germanic
> stem *thurpi, from which also derives Dutch "dorp", German "Dorf", older
> English -thorp (in place names only nowadays, maybe in dialects as well?)
> etc, = "village". this is probably due to the fact that in Frisian areas a
> village had such a mount with a church on it, very prominently in its
> centre. So the mount came to be known as "village". In modern West Frisian
> we even borrowed the Dutch word "dorp" (as doarp [dwarp]), and only use
> "terp" in the artificial mount meaning only.
> In North Frisian the word is still used (saarep/taarep on Amrum/Feer resp.
> eg.) in the village meaning.

 Henno & Ron, this kind of stuff is meat & drink to me: Many thanks!

Groete,
Mark

----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.01 (07) [E]

Dear David

Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

> That should say my Old English is pretty basic.

Not as basic as mine, & I like what you do.

Yrs, Mark

----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.09 (04) [E]

Dear David & Ron,

LL-L "Etymology"

> I know close to zero Afrikaans, which version did you translate it from?
> I'm trying to work out which of the words means 'hewn down'  weggekap?

Spot on! 'weg' = 'away' & gekap = 'chopped'.
I used 'weg' rather than 'af' or 'neer' = 'down' or 'uit' = 'out' in order
to scan - sorry alliterate - with the first half-line.

I had only the English to work from, & snippets from my studies.
'ANGLO-SAXON POETRY'  Selected & Translated by Prof. R K Gordon. 'The Dream
of the Rood', a prose translation. I prefer to work with such. One can lose
so much in accuracy for the sake of making good verse.

> Here's my wild stab at an Old Saxon translation:
>
> H?liandes b?m (= kr?ci)
> and that ik gih?rde that it r?thion
> afh?bbade th?r word gispr?kan holte s?ligste
> that uuas for g?rta ? ik farsinnare noh that
> that ik uuas ?hauwon fan des holtes (~ uualdes) rand (~ and ~ s?m)

Ron, die taal laat my hare opstaan!

Die Uwe,
Mark

----------

From: Stella en Henno <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.01 (08) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Good one, as usual, Henno!
>
> > The word comes from Old Frisian, where "terp" is the regular development
> of
> > a Germanic
> > stem *thurpi, from which also derives Dutch "dorp", German "Dorf", older
> > English -thorp (in place names only nowadays, maybe in dialects as
well?)
> > etc, = "village". this is probably due to the fact that in Frisian areas
a
> > village had such a mount with a church on it, very prominently in its
> > centre. So the mount came to be known as "village". In modern West
Frisian
> > we even borrowed the Dutch word "dorp" (as doarp [dwarp]), and only use
> > "terp" in the artificial mount meaning only.
>
> In most Lowlands Saxon (Low German) dialects of the North it's _d?rp_,
> though some have _dorp_.

Grappich om te sjen dat hjir ek de foarm mei oml?d it w?n hat. My tinkt, dy
foarm komt ?t it meartal wei, lykas it D?tsk ek Dorf - D?rfer hat, of faaks
ek it oare b?gde foarmen (*thurpis as genityf, miskjin). Yn it Aldfrysk
waard in [?] of [?] ?ntr?ne ta [E] (Aldeil?nnoardfrysk feroare de earste yn
[E] mar de twadde yn [i]; dit is ien fan 'e redenen om ta in ?lde skieding
yn oarsprong tusken de eilannen en de f?stew?l te kommen), en dy is yn it
Westerlauwersk Frysk [e] bleaun of rutsen ta [E:]  ("r?st" = Ingelsk "rest"
= Ndl "rust", "r?ch" komt oerien mei Ingelsk "ridge", en it Nederl?nske
"rug", mar soms hat it Frysk ek in [I], as yn "mich" = Ing."midge" = Ndl.
"mug" bygelyks. [It Ingelsk hat yn dizze wurden ek mear palatalisearre as it
Frysk]. Dizze ?ntr?ning sit miskjin ek yn it al neamde "hil" (Siuwsk, tocht
my, d?chs?), d?r't ek de foarm "hel" yn Fryske plaknammen foarkomt ("de
reade hel" bygelyks), en ek yn de Noard-Holl?nske plaknamme "Den Helder" (in
meartal: "de heuvels" ("den" ?t b?gde foarmen), dit plak leit op hege dunen,
oarspronklik). Ek it Ingelsk "hill" soe dan in ?ntr?ne foarm hawwe. Dit fynt
ek stipe yn it etymologysk wurdboek, dat "hill" (< "hyll") as besibbe sjocht
mei Latyn "collis" < *kolnis en ?tgiet fan it stam [*hulni] yn it Germaansk,
d?r't ek Middelnederl?nsk "hulle" fan komt. It wurd "heuvel" (yn it
Westerlauwerk Frysk in lienwurd) hat wer in oare oarsprong, dy't mei in
Indoeuropeeske stam fan "b?ge" te krijen hat. By hel/hill/hil soene ek
Gryksk "kolo:nos" (heuvel) en Aldslavyske en Keltyske foarmen hearre.
[knip]
>
> > In North Frisian the word is still used (saarep/taarep on Amrum/Feer
resp.
> > eg.) in the village meaning.
>
> th (?) > North Frisian /s/

Allinnich yn it Amrumer Noardfrysk! Mar de oare dialekten hawwe allegearre
in t-, lykas de measte Skandinaafske talen ek. Dit jildt ek foar it
Westerlauwersk en it Sealter Frysk. Allinnich yn ?lder S?l'ring en Fering
hearde je in ferskil tusken "gewoane" t en t ?t [?], mar dat is no (hast)
?tstoarn. It Wangereager Frysk (no ek "dea") hie noch in echt [?]-l?d, mar
dat wie ek tige beh?ldend!

> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

Mei freonlike groetnis,

Henno

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Henno (boppe):

> Grappich om te sjen dat hjir ek de foarm mei oml?d it w?n hat. My tinkt,
dy
> foarm komt ?t it meartal wei, lykas it D?tsk ek Dorf - D?rfer hat, of
faaks
> ek it oare b?gde foarmen (*thurpis as genityf, miskjin).

Ja, wurklik grappich.  Miskijn fan *_thorpo_ > *_thorpe_, lyk as Ingelsk
_thorp_ ~ _thorpe_?

Mar is _terp_ net ek mei oml?d!

Mark (above):

> Ron, die taal laat my hare opstaan!

Oh, Mark!  I'm happy I was able to give you that thrill.  But don't tell me
Old Saxon does to you what Scots does to Gabriele!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Jul 10 17:19:03 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:19:03 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.10 (04) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUL.2004.101903.0700.>

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.07.01 (04) [E]

Dear Glenn,

Subject: Lexicon

> 'Haugh', I think, is pronounced like your 'hof' but
> there again I'm no linguist! Interesting, there seem
> to be some similarities between the languages.

I agree, & not merely the language, but the people too.
Herewith a short list of Old Afrikaans Families: McDonald, Cambell, Murray,
Barnard, McAlpine, Gordon, Grant, Greeen (three 'e's - it used to be
McGregor), Turner (it used to be Lamont). There is even a family that
supposes it was Scots, but which I happen to have learned, In Situ, came
from immediately south of the Border - Starbuck: Must have eaten a lot of
Scottish beef though. The family is still in the cattle business.
Incidentally, many Scots incomers to this day seem to drift to the Afrikaans
side of the community. I put it down to the ease with which they, (unlike
Pommies) can pick up the language.

I have read that many from Scotland and the Border took service under the
Dutch East India Company, & it didn't end there. Lord Charles Somerset,
sometime Governor of the Cape,  tried to 'Anglicise' the Afrikaner, & to
this purpose imported a body of Scots Predicants, by their 'Covenanter'
persuasion a community highly respected in my country. They forthwith became
Afrikaans. Scratch that plan!

> Another topograpical term  in my part of the world is
> 'hoe', as in my home town Prudhoe 'the hill or
> heights' of Prudda's people or it could mean 'Proud'
> (Prood in Northumbrian) heights'. Hoe is normally an
> elevation on a spur of a river apparently.

We would follow that. We pronounce the comparative 'higher' as 'hu:@r' -
spelt 'ho?r' the word we use is 'hoogte' as in 'Voortrekkerhoogte -
Voortrekker Heights'.

Yrs Sincerely,
Mark

----------

From: yasuji <yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Plattdeutsch

Hallo leve Plattsnacker/erin,
as ik in d?sse April Sleswig-Holsteen bes?kt heff, heff ik een Woort
"snacken" vun mien Fr?nnen h?rt. Jo is een hoochd??tsche Wort "snacken".
Brukt man "snacken" oft op Hoochd??tsch? Mien Platt is nich ganz goot. Ik
haap, Se all k??nt verstahn, wt ik schreven heff.

Hartlich,

Yasuji Waki, ut Japan

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Beste Yasuji,

> Mien Platt is nich ganz goot. Ik
> haap, Se all k??nt verstahn, wt ik schreven heff.

Ik kann dat prima verstahn.

Ik kan dat prima verstaan.

"Snacken" is keen "hooch"-d??tschet Woort, man ?ver dat Missingsch (ook
_snacken_) hebbt 'n Barg noordd??tsche Dialekten vun 't D?ytsche dat Woord
as _schnacken_ ?vernahmen.

"Snakken" is keyn "Hoog"-D?ytschet wourd, man ?ver dat Missingsch (ook
_snakken_) hebt 'n barg Nourdd??tsche dialekten vun 't D?ytsche dat wourd as
_schnacken_ ?vernamen.

Yasuji asked if the Lowlands Saxon (Low German) verb _snakken_ (<snacken>),
used in North Saxon dialects to mean 'talk', 'speak', 'chat', etc., is used
in German as well.  I responded by saying that it is not a "High"-German
word but is used as a loanword (_schnacken_) in North German dialects of
German, loaned via Missingsch, German dialects with LS substrates.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Jul 10 23:50:38 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:50:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.10 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUL.2004.165038.0700.>

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From: Frank Verhoft <frank.verhoft at skynet.be>
Subject: Resources

Hi everybody

Some time ago i could buy Paul's Grundriss der germanischen Philologie, 2nd
edition, Vol. I and III, and now i'm looking for the 2nd volume. Alas, i
couldn't find neither a description of that 2nd vol., nor any e-shop where
it can be found.
Can anybody help me out?

Many thanks in advance,

Frank

PS: My apologies for cross-posting

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Jul 10 23:52:25 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:52:25 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Levity" 2004.07.10 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.10.JUL.2004.165225.0700.>

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From: Edwin Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
Subject: ENDANGERED LANGUAGE

For those of you who watch what you eat, here's the final word on nutrition
and health.  It's a relief to know the truth after all those conflicting
medical studies.

1) The Japanese eat very little fat and suffer fewer heart attacks than the
British, Americans or Canadians
2) Mexicans eat a lot of fat and suffer fewer heart attacks than the
British, Americans or Canadians
3) Africans drink very little red wine and suffer fewer heart attacks than
the British, Americans or Canadians
4) Italians drink large amounts of red wine and suffer fewer heart attacks
than the British, Americans or Canadians
5) Germans drink a lot of beer and eat lots of sausages and fats and suffer
fewer heart attacks than the British, Americans or Canadians

Conclusion:  Eat and drink to your heart's content.  Speaking English is
apparently what is killing you.

Ed Alexander

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Jul 11 14:14:04 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 07:14:04 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.11 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.11.JUL.2004.071404.0700.>

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.10 (03) [A/E/F]

Ron wrote:

> Oh, Mark!  I'm happy I was able to give you that thrill.  But don't tell
me
> Old Saxon does to you what Scots does to Gabriele!

It's a little more complicated than that, dearest Ron; first of all, the
speaker has to be male and handsome, of course, and second - the content
accounts for at least 50%! :-)

Gabriele "Mae" Kahn

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Jul 11 14:16:13 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 07:16:13 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.11 (02) [E]
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From: Mike <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.10 (05) [E]

Frank wrote:

Some time ago i could buy Paul's Grundriss der germanischen Philologie, 2nd
edition, Vol. I and III, and now i'm looking for the 2nd volume. Alas, i
couldn't find neither a description of that 2nd vol., nor any e-shop where
it can be found.
Can anybody help me out?

Cannot help you, Frank, rather lauch my own request:
Anybody who can help me to find ??????????? , Etymological Dictionary of the
Russian Language
(?????????????????????????????? ?????????????? ? ?????????????? ??????????)?
Sorry for stepping over the edge of LL.

Greetings, Mike Wintzer

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Jul 11 20:29:43 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:29:43 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Levity" 2004.07.11 (03) [E]
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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Etymology

Beste Gabriele,

> Ron wrote:
>
> > Oh, Mark!  I'm happy I was able to give you that thrill.  But don't
> > tell
> me
> > Old Saxon does to you what Scots does to Gabriele!
>
> It's a little more complicated than that, dearest Ron; first
> of all, the speaker has to be male and handsome, of course,
> and second - the content accounts for at least 50%! :-)
>
> Gabriele "Mae" Kahn

The content of what? Content of his wallet? Content of his kilt? *s*

Greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Jul 11 22:22:07 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 15:22:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Levity" 2004.07.11 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.11.JUL.2004.152207.0700.>

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.11 (01) [E]

Dear Gabriele & Ron,

Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

> > But don't tell me Old Saxon does to you what Scots does to Gabriele!
>
> It's a little more complicated than that, dearest Ron; first of all, the
> speaker has to be male and handsome, of course, and second - the content
> accounts for at least 50%! :-)

I'm so glad I waited to respond! On behalf of my wife, I must inform you,
Ron, that I'm a happily married man.

& Gabriele, purely in the spirit of Academic inquiry, What would this
content embrace; exactly?

Yrs,
Mark

----------

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Levity" 2004.07.11 (03) [E]

Luc wrote:

> > It's a little more complicated than that, dearest Ron; first
> > of all, the speaker has to be male and handsome, of course,
> > and second - the content accounts for at least 50%! :-)
> >
> > Gabriele "Mae" Kahn
>
> The content of what? Content of his wallet? Content of his kilt? *s*

The content of his brain. Unlike many people, I don't consider somebody's
wallet an erogenous zone... that's why, sadly, I have to support myself to
this day instead of whooping it up in a gated community in Berverly Hills
(oh, the horror!). Or maybe you meant the content of his glenwillie?
According to the late Douglas Adams ("The Meaning of Liff"), that is "a
protective pouch worn under the kilt during thistle harvest".

Actually, when my husband is trying to entice me to shut down the computer
and come to bed at night, he usually waves a shiny new cryptic crossword
puzzle under my nose. That's the one thing I cannae resist!

Cryptically,
Gabriele Kahn

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Jul 11 22:25:35 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 15:25:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Name the language" 2004.07.11 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.11.JUL.2004.152535.0700.>

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Name the language" 2004.07.10 (01) [E]

Hi, Pat!
Subject: LL-L "Name the language"

> I'm not sure whether the way I'm taking this thread is within the scope
> of LL-L:
> However, I don't think that anyone would argue that Tolkien, born in
Bloemfontain,
> ancestrally from the West Midlands and Germany, is a Lowlands Author.

I stand with you that he was not a Lowands Languages 'author', to any
extant, but he was manifestly a 'scholar', not merely Lowlands Languages,
but of the Teutonic languages as a whole. The University, on awarding him
their honour, were at some pains (because of the publicity his fiction had
gathered to him) that they were recognising his Scholarship, not his 'Lord
of the Rings'.

This doesn't mean he didn't have fun in any other language. While in the
English department at Leeds, as a member of the 'Viking Club', he & E V
Gordon met with the undergraduates to drink large quantities of beer, read
the sagas, translate Nursary Rhymes into Old English, lampoon fellows &
students, & compose comic songs in Old Norse. He did the same with the
'Inklings' & the 'Kolb?tar' in Oxford. (J R R TOLKIEN: A Biography:
H.Carpenter).

> I wonder what he means by 'mode'.  If he means 'language', then he's right

Yes: Well, for Tolkien Language had a broader application than many, so in
his case I'd stick with mode.

Yrs Sincerely,
Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Jul 11 23:31:00 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 16:31:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "In the media" 2004.07.11 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.11.JUL.2004.163100.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: In the media

Folks,

I believe that on this list we have a large number of people that are
interested in British history and folklore.  Those of you, and perhaps even
others, might be tempted to watch the newly released movie _King Arthur_
(http://kingarthur.movies.go.com/main.html).  I watched it yesterday.

The movie is of course predominantly entertaining, and educational messages
must be taken with a couple of grains of salt.  Nevertheless, it is
interesting in that it goes beyond the traditional story by incorporating
some more recent research findings which point toward Arthur having been a
part-British (i.e., Brython, Pictish) and part-Roman officer in Roman employ
who attempted to fill the void when the Romans withdrew from Britain and the
Saxons were just beginning to invade.  Furthermore, it shows Arthur's
knights as Samartians* that had been drafted by the Romans from their
homeland in what are now areas of Poland and Ukraine.

Some reading and TV-watching revealed that according to the latest theories
the King Arthur saga is largely based upon Samartian* folk epics, including
drawing the sword from a rock, the Holy Grail being based on a cauldron that
revived fallen warriors and made them indestructable and unfeeling battle
machines, and even the name Lancelot being based on the name of a hero in
one of these Samartian* epics.

In the movie the Picts speak what I assume is a made-up Celtic-based
language.  The Saxons -- who, understandably are portrayed in a less than
flattering light and, being deemed "German," display slight shades of
Hollywood Nazi stereotypes -- actually use an Old Saxon battle cry.  (Mark,
I wonder if it would make your hair stand on end ...)  For the sake of those
of you who (will) wonder about it, and for the sake of discussion, let me
say that I identified it as being _Slahan f?and!_ ['sla:xan 'fi:ant],
something like "Slay(ing) the foe!"  _F?and_, being a cognate of both
English "fiend" and German _Feind_ 'enemy', means 'demon', 'ghoul', 'fiend'
and also 'foe' or 'enemy' in Old Saxon.  I wonder if others agree with my
understanding of the battle cry.

* The Samartians are believed to have moved to Eastern Europe from Central
Asia and appear to have been nomadic or semi-nomadic.  They were the eastern
neighbors of the Scythians whom they later annexed.  Most scholars believe
that they spoke an Iranian varity.  In the early part of Slavonic
colonization of Poland, the nobility of that region claimed to be Samartian
and referred to their land as Samartia.  Even though Samartia was not a part
of the Roman Empire, Romans routinely "recruited" (by force) Samartian
youths (who came with superior equestrian skills) and posted them at the far
reaches of their borderlands in the west, for instance along the Rhine and
also along Hadrian's Wall in Northern Britain.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul 12 16:04:40 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:04:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "In the media" 2004.07.12 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.12.JUL.2004.090440.0700.>

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: In the media

Beste Ron,

> Folks,
>
> I believe that on this list we have a large number of people
> that are interested in British history and folklore.  Those
> of you, and perhaps even others, might be tempted to watch
> the newly released movie _King Arthur_
> (http://kingarthur.movies.go.com/main.html).  I watched it yesterday.
>
> The movie is of course predominantly entertaining, and
> educational messages must be taken with a couple of grains of
> salt.  Nevertheless, it is interesting in that it goes beyond
> the traditional story by incorporating some more recent
> research findings which point toward Arthur having been a
> part-British (i.e., Brython, Pictish) and part-Roman officer
> in Roman employ who attempted to fill the void when the
> Romans withdrew from Britain and the Saxons were just
> beginning to invade.  Furthermore, it shows Arthur's knights
> as Samartians* that had been drafted by the Romans from their
> homeland in what are now areas of Poland and Ukraine.
>
> Some reading and TV-watching revealed that according to the
> latest theories the King Arthur saga is largely based upon
> Samartian* folk epics, including drawing the sword from a
> rock, the Holy Grail being based on a cauldron that revived
> fallen warriors and made them indestructable and unfeeling
> battle machines, and even the name Lancelot being based on
> the name of a hero in one of these Samartian* epics.
>
> In the movie the Picts speak what I assume is a made-up
> Celtic-based language.  The Saxons -- who, understandably are
> portrayed in a less than flattering light and, being deemed
> "German," display slight shades of Hollywood Nazi stereotypes
> -- actually use an Old Saxon battle cry.  (Mark, I wonder if
> it would make your hair stand on end ...)  For the sake of
> those of you who (will) wonder about it, and for the sake of
> discussion, let me say that I identified it as being _Slahan
> f?and!_ ['sla:xan 'fi:ant], something like "Slay(ing) the
> foe!"  _F?and_, being a cognate of both English "fiend" and
> German _Feind_ 'enemy', means 'demon', 'ghoul', 'fiend'
> and also 'foe' or 'enemy' in Old Saxon.  I wonder if others
> agree with my understanding of the battle cry.
>
> * The Samartians are believed to have moved to Eastern Europe
> from Central Asia and appear to have been nomadic or
> semi-nomadic.  They were the eastern neighbors of the
> Scythians whom they later annexed.  Most scholars believe
> that they spoke an Iranian varity.  In the early part of
> Slavonic colonization of Poland, the nobility of that region
> claimed to be Samartian and referred to their land as
> Samartia.  Even though Samartia was not a part of the Roman
> Empire, Romans routinely "recruited" (by force) Samartian
> youths (who came with superior equestrian skills) and posted
> them at the far reaches of their borderlands in the west, for
> instance along the Rhine and also along Hadrian's Wall in
> Northern Britain.

I take it you are willing to refer to the Sarmatians here? Metathesis? Maybe
caused by the Samara oblast? Anyway, very interesting, to say the
least...unfortunately "King Arthur" has not been released here yet.
I read something equally compelling in an article on how British men could
easily be descendants of Genghis Khan. You can find it here:
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20040621/genghis.html
The survey was held at Oxford University by Bryan Sykes, a geneticist, and
the results could be explained by the fact that the Mongols first killed all
the men, then inseminated all the women and finally handed down the empire
from son to son...this would explain why Genghis' Y chromosome spread as far
as the UK.

Greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "In the media" 2004.07.11 (06) [E]

About the new King Arthur movie:
Here's a review I read, and it's not very flattering:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5343992

By John Hartl
Film critic
MSNBC
Updated: 2:24 p.m. ET July 06, 2004

Everyone has a favorite Camelot movie. Producer Jerry Bruckheimer and
director Antoine Fuqua?s ?King Arthur? tries very hard not to resemble any
of them.

Aside from a few lustful glances, very little is left of the
Arthur-Guinevere-Lancelot triangle. The gritty style suggests ?Braveheart,?
the script?s occasional pretensions recall ?Lord of the Rings? and
?Gladiator? (which was partly written by this film?s screenwriter, David
Franzoni), while the grotesque makeup and special effects appear to be left
over from Bruckheimer?s ?Pirates of the Caribbean.?

 Quick facts
Starring: Clive Owen, Stephen Dillane, Keira Knightley, Hugh Dancy, Ioan
Gruffudd
Director: Antoine Fuqua
Running time: 2 hours, 10 minutes
MPAA rating: PG-13

But where is Johnny Depp, or any actor willing to walk the plank to give
this ?Arthur? a lift? Clive Owen?s Arthur is relentlessly morose, Ioan
Gruffudd?s Lancelot is poorly defined, and it comes as a major surprise ?
almost a plot twist midway through the movie ? when it?s revealed that they?
re the best of friends.

True, Keira Knightley (from ?Pirates?) is easily the most aggressive
Guinevere in film history, challenging Arthur?s political and religious
allegiances and savagely fighting back in the battle scenes, but there?s not
much more to her character or her relationships.

And the supporting cast, which includes such accomplished actors as Stephen
Dillane (as Merlin) and Stellan Skarsgaard (as a vicious Saxon warlord),
have even less to work with. Fuqua may have guided Denzel Washington to an
Oscar in ?Training Day,? but he often seems defeated by the size of this $90
million production.

He appears to be most comfortable with the battle scenes, especially a tense
episode in which Arthur & Co. lure the gullible Saxons into an icebound lake
that starts to crack up when they try to cross it. Yet even the action
scenes are always on the verge of collapsing into ?Monty Python and the Holy
Grail? hilarity.

Guinevere never misses with her bow and arrow, while the supposedly tough
and well-trained Saxons rarely seem capable of doing anything right. There?s
even a fake Stonehenge by the sea that seems to embarrass the actors. Owen
in particular appears to be cracking up as he tries to deliver a somber
curtain speech.

The movie begins as the story of the child Lancelot, who is taken from his
family in 452 A.D. Fifteen years later, it suddenly becomes Arthur?s story,
and there are other dismayingly abrupt changes in the point of view. For
awhile, Franzoni?s dialogue emphasizes religious debates, between Arthur and
Lancelot, between Arthur and Guinevere, and between Arthur and the sadistic
priests and traitorous representatives of Rome, but it all seems like filler
between battles.

Franzoni?s screenplay does try to break from the past by positioning Arthur
as a reluctant pawn in the Roman empire?s abandonment of the British Isles.
Alas, Arthur?s gradual realization that Britain needs a unifying king, and
that he?s the man for the job, is sketchily handled. Perhaps ?King Arthur?
is closer to historical truth than any previous Camelot movie, but it really
doesn?t matter because so little about the characters rings true.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------

So much for the review. By the way, what Ron wrote about
> "the Holy Grail being based on a cauldron that revived fallen warriors
> and made them indestructable and unfeeling battle machines
sounds like it's taken straight from Lloyd Alexander's Prydain books (the
Taran series; there's even a Disney movie about "The Black Cauldron").

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "In the media" 2004.07.11 (06) [E]

Dear Ron,

Subject: In the media

Don't you mean Sarmations?

I loved the 'Matter of Britain' since early childhood. It is one of the most
consistant collections of books I have made. One of these is an interesting
view from the - well 'West Saxon' perspective, entitled, 'The Conscience of
the King' (He was notable for not having one), as clinical an analysis of a
sociopath as I have read in fiction), but but not destructive for all that.
Here for the first time, I read of the British use of Catephracti against
the Saxons. Actually, it seems to me the Clinibarii (ovens), even more
heavily armoured, even with armoured horses, were more likely, if they were
Sarmatian based.

Too few people bear in mind that at the end of the Roman Empire most of
their Army (like 90%) was German, & of the very tribes that invaded them.
They had had hundreds of years of exposure to Roman military & cultural
techniques, & by then there was little difference between the humble Roman
peasant (Humilior) & the German peasant, except that he wasn't humble, was
armed, & moreover, wouldn't pay any tax at all, let alone a crippling one.
Little enough attention is paid to the part that bureaucratic proliferation
played in the collapse of the Roman Empire - & NASA

>(Mark, I wonder if it would make your hair stand on end ...)  For the sake
of those
> of you who (will) wonder about it, and for the sake of discussion, let me
> say that I identified it as being _Slahan f?and!_ ['sla:xan 'fi:ant],

I would understand that: & it probably would! Afrikaans _ Slaan die Vyand!_
['sla:n di f@:iand'] = Slay the enemy! Afrikaans 'slag' [slax] = slaughter &
'in die slag gebly' [@n di slax x at bl@:i] = defeated in battle.
This is probably 'Old Hat' to you, Ron, though others may be interested.

But perhaps you can help me with 'sneuwel - gesneuwel' [sni:@v at l -
x at sni:@v at l], a word we use exclusively for one who has died in combat?

Groete,
Mark

----------

From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: "In the Media."

Hello, Ron and other Lowlanders!

Ron, in your posting about the new film 'King Arthur' you repeatedly speak
about the SAMARTIANS. I think you must be referring to the SARMATIANS, and
must be guilty of a lapsus keyboardus!

The Sarmatians were called Sauromati by the early Greeks, and Sarmati (Latin
Sarmatae) by their later descendants and by the Romans.Heredotus speaks of
them as living beyond the River Tanais, which corresponds to the modern
Don.They later allied themselves with Rome, and often acted as buffers
between the Romans and hostile Germanic tribes.Not far from my hometown of
Preston is a small place called Ribchester; this was an important Roman
settlement called Bremetennacum Veteranorum, and apparently many of the men
stationed there were in fact Sarmatians.

Much is made by some researchers of the fact that one of the commanders of
the Sarmatian horsemen in Britain was called Lucius Artorius Castus, who put
down a rebellion in Gaul in 184 AD. Others suggest that the Sarmatian
religion revolved around Arthurian-type motifs like people pulling swords
out of stones. I wonder though just how much is actually known about
Sarmatian culture, given the fact that there still seems to be conjecture
even about the origins of their language: although the concensus considers
them to have spoken an early Iranic language, there are still people trying
to claim that thiir speech was Proto-Slavonic or Proto-Hungarian.

C. Scott Littleton and Linda Malcor suggest (in their book 'From Scythia to
Camelot') that many of the elements of the Arturian legends originate in the
mythology of the Sarmatians and Alans. There is apparently a figure in the
'Alan Nart cycle' (actually the Ossetian Nart Cycle) called Batraz whom they
take to be Arthur by another name. Lancelot they suggest takes his name from
'Alanz-lot', 'the parcel of land of the Alan'. One major problem with their
conjectures is that the very elements that the Arthurian and 'Scythian'
legends (Sarmatians and Alans are considered to be Sythians, though I am not
sure that this is totally correct; Herdotus clearly distinguishes between
them) have in common - the sword in the stone, the grail, the return of the
sword to the enchanted lake - so not appear in the earlier versions of the
story. The Ossetian epic cycle too was only written down in the 19th
century, so it would not be possible for outside elements to have entered
it.

Well, I started off correcting one word and I seem to have written a short
essay!

John Duckworth
Preston, UK

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: In the media

Folks,

Yes, yes, I did mean "SaRmatians."  Sorry about the error, and thanks for
the corrections and elaborations.

This one certainly struck a cord with quite a few of you, judging by a few
off-list responses as well.  I assumed many of you would be a lot more
knowledgeable about this than I am, and obviously I was right.  Also, please
bear in mind that this type of movie is first of all for entertainment, not
for genuine education, and supposedly its educational value ought to be
taken with a grain of salt or two, as I had mentioned.

I need to stress that none of the theories are in any way espoused by me.

One off-list response mentioned that it is not necessary to resort to
"exotic" explanations when elements of folk epos, such as that of the
cauldron, can be found within Celtic societies as well.  Again, I stress
that I do not in any way endorse the story line of the movie and the
supposed research it is based on.  Furthermore, I agree that oftentimes
people resort to "exotic" explanations and ignore the obvious, mostly for
reasons of relying on spotty information, obsession with one's own little
research niche, sensationalism and "splash" value.

As far as I am concerned, what this ought to remind us of is that very often
we deal with common or widespread Eurasian folkloristic heritage, a heritage
going back to oral transmission from an ancient and misty past.  Either it
was passed on from group to group (because in the past there used to be much
more interethnic communication across the entire Eurasian continent than
even now many people want to believe or admit) or, as is also possible in
this case, it goes back to a common, pre-diversification heritage.  I feel
that, even though we deal with a relatively small field of interest, we
ought to always bear in mind that there are fewer differences than
similarities among the world's people and their thoughts, languages,
cultures, technologies, beliefs and aspirations, that virtually nothing can
be looked at in total isolation.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 13 15:52:23 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 08:52:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.13 (01) [D/E]
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUL.2004.085223.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Literature

Folks,

I am here to help one of our new subscribers who lives in M?hlheim on the
Ruhr, a Low-Franconian-speaking area of Germany close to the borders with
Netherlands and Belgian Limburg.  Although he follows our discussions with
interest, he is not sufficiently confident to participate in English.
Please find a copy of his German message below.

[At this point I ought to interject, emphasizing once again that it is not
necessary, certainly not required, to write in English on this list.  You
are welcome to write in any language you wish, not only Lowlands languages
either (in this case either in German or in M?hlheim dialect), although it
is true that English reaches more people.]

Anyway, here is the thing.  The oldest known M?hlheim Low Franconian piece
of literature is a Martinmas song sung while going from door to door
"begging" for treats (in the style of Halloween trick-o-treating), a song
that has relatives in an area from Dunkerque (Flemish) to Pomorania
(Lowlands Saxon/Low German).  Our new Lowlander invites everyone to share
related versions from other regions.  (I ought to add our Belgian friends,
and indeed anyone to this list.)

We have mentioned this Martinmas song before.  You can search for it in our
archives (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html) under
"Search the Archives."  (Just input "Martinmas" in the search box and make
sure you check the box for "Substring Search.")

Below please find a copy of the M?hlheim version of the song, first in
German-based spelling and then in my transliteration into what is roughly
Limburgish spelling as used in the Netherlands and Belgium.  By the way, the
indented verse is in ("High") German.

Laaglanders, voornamelijk u mensen in of van Nederland en Belgi?, laat ons
onse nieuwe vriend verwelkomen en hem helpen om onse gemeenschappelijke
erfgoederen te ontdekken!  Bij voorbaat bedankt.

Furthermore, our new member wishes to know what the pronunciation of "g" is
in Limburgish, whether or not it is like in German _ach_, which is the case
in the dialect of M?hlheim.

I take it that _??sse_ (my _?se_) refers to the nearby German city of Essen.

The M?hlheim webpage (currently down) is here:
http://www.muelheim-ruhr.de/

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

From: "Franz Firla" <f.firla at web.de>
To: "Hahn, R.F." <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Ssinter_M?tes_V?gelsche
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:50:59 +0200


Lieber Herr Hahn,

ich mu? gestehen, dass ich die Diskussionen in LOWLANDS zwar mit Interesse
verfolge, mich aber mit meinem unge?bten Englisch kaum in eine Diskussion
einlassen k?nnte.
Nun habe ich aber die gro?e Hoffnung, dass Sie mir bei der Verbreitung
bestimmter Anliegen in den Niederlanden behilflich sein k?nnten.
Die Verwandtschaft unseres M?lmsch mit dem Limburgs ist hier bekannt.
Die historische Richtung der Verbreitung bleibt jedoch unklar.
Das ?lteste Zeugnis unserer Mundart ist das Martinslied "Ssinter M?tes
V?gelsche". Auch dies ist keine Singularit?t sondern ein Version eines
Liedtypus, der von D?nkirchen bis nach Pommern nachzuweisen ist.
Ihre niederl?ndischen Kollegen kennen m?glichweise noch mir unbekannte
Textversionen.Daf?r w?re ich sehr dankbar!
Der Text unserer Version findet sich in den Ihnen bekannten Internet-Seiten
unter "M?lmsche Lieder"

Ach, by the way, eine Frage:
Wird das g bzw. das ch im Limburgs wie das deutsche ch in "ach"
ausgesprochen, was wir ja tun?

Mit herzlichen Gr??en aus dem sch?nen M?lheim a.d.Ruhr

Ihr

Franz Firla


***
German-based spelling:

   SSINTER M??TES V??GELSCHE

   Ssinter M??tes V??gelsche
   heet ssu'n roat Kap??gelsche,
   cheflooge, chestoowe
   wiet, wiet ??wer d? Rhien,
   woo die fette Ferkes ssien.
   Chutt Frau, cheeff uss wat,
   aal die H?nnerkes leege wat!

   Boowen in die F??sche
   hangen di lange W??ste,
   cheeft uss di lange,
   loot di kotte hangen.
   Loot uss nee ssu lang hie stohn,
   we-i m??ten en H??ske widder chohn;
   hie van d?n noh ??sse,
   hoolen en fettem Bl??sse;
   hie v??r, doo v??r,
   v??r die rieke Koupmannsd??r.

      Hier wohnt ein reicher Mann,
      der uns was geben kann,
      viel soll er geben, lang soll er leben,
      selig soll er sterben,
      das Himmelreich erwerben!

   Die Maad, die l?p di Trappen 'erop,
   pack wahl in d? N??tesack,
   pack wahl nee derneewe,
   sse w?dd uss wahl wat cheewe.
   Chiff wat, haul wat,
   teegen't Johr wirr wat.
   Ssinter M??tes Stuppstatt,
   schmiet en Appel duar dat Chatt,
   schmiet en nee ssu? wiet,
   ss?ss f?llt hee in ,en Driet,
   schmiet en nee ssu' hatt,
   ss?ss f?llt hee in 'et Chat!

   Muus, Muus kumm 'eruut,
   chiff uss ?ppel un N??te;
   ?ppel un N??te ssiend ssu' chutt
   f??r d?n aulem Pattsfoot!

***
Limburgish-based spelling:

   SINTER M?TES VEUGELSJE

   Sinter M?tes veugelsje
   heet soe'n roat kapeugelsje.
   Geflogen, gestoven
   wiet, wiet euver d? Rhien,
   w? die vetten verkes sien.
   Goed vrau, geef oes wat!
   Aal die hunnerkes legen wat!

   Boven in die v?sje
   hangen die langen weuste.
   Geeft oes die langen!
   L??t die kotten hangen!
   L??t oes ne soe lang hie sjt??n!
   Wei meuten en huuske widder g??n,
   hie van d?n n? ?se,
   h?len en vetten bl??ssen;
   hie v??r, d? v??r,
   v??r die rieke koupmansduer.

      Hier wohnt ein reicher Mann,
      der uns was geben kann,
      viel soll er geben, lang soll er leben,
      selig soll er sterben,
      das Himmelreich erwerben!

   Die maad, die leup die trappen erop,
   pak waal in d? neutesak,
   pak waal ne derneven.
   Se w?d oes waal wat geven.
   Gif wat, haul wat,
   tegen't j??r wir wat.

   Sinter M?tes sjtoepsjtat.
   Sjmiet en appel duar dat gat!
   Sjmiet en ne soe wiet,
   sus v?lt he in en driet.
   Sjmiet en ne soe hat,
   sus v?lt he in et gat!

   Moes, moes, koem eroet!
   Gif oes ?ppel oen neute!
   ?ppel oen neute siend soe goed
   v??r d?n aulen patsvoot!

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 13 16:54:20 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:54:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.13 (02) [E/German]
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUL.2004.095420.0700.>

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.13 (01) [D/E]

First of all - hello, Franz - I live not far from you and actually used to
work for a well-known software company in M?lheim (the one in the red brick
building next to the train station...) until two years ago.

Here's a Martinmas verse we used to sing as children in South Lower Saxony.
Please keep in mind that, as that area is largely Protestant, all these
songs refer to Martin Luther there (same day - his birthday), not St.
Martin.

"Matten Matten Abend,
de ?ppel unn de P?ren,
dat Himmelreich is uppgedaan,
da wollmer alle rinnegaan,
an d?sen Matten Abend."

Viele Gr??e ans liebliche Ufer der Ruhr,
Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Literature

Here are a couple of Rhenish Martinmas songs:


Ripurarian Rhenish of Cologne (K?ln):

D? HELLGE ZENTER M?TES

   D? hellge Zenter M?tes, dat wer ne jode Mann.
   D? jev d? Kinder K?rzer un stoch se selver an.
   Butz, butz widder butz, dat wer ne jode Mann.

   D? hellge Zenter M?tes, d? k?tt och h?ck zo uns.
   Drom gommer met d? Fackele. Et freut sich kleen und gro?
   Butz, butz widder butz, dat wer ne jode Mann

***

Low Franconian of the Lower Rhine area (where?)

S?NTE MARTINS V?GGELKEN

  S?nte Martins V?ggelken,
   dat hadde sun rot K?ggelken.
   Dat flogg all so hooge,
   ?wwer denn Kerksturme,
   ?wwer denn Rhin.
   Hei, S?nte Martin!

   S?nte Martin is et kold.
   Gewwt uns een St?cksten Holt,
   woar wij uns an w?rmen
   K?nnten met unse blanke Arme.
   Gewwt wat, hollt wat,
   gewwt denn armen Thomes wat.

   Thomes, Thomes, dicken Schleef,
   heww kin Vader un Moder neet leef.
   De K?ije hebbt de H?rne.
   De Kerken hebbt de T?rne.
   De H?ser hebbt 'ne Gewwel.
   Den Tutemann heww denn Kenewwe!

      Hier wohnt ein reicher Mann,
      der uns vieles geben kann.
      Vieles soll er geben!
      Lange soll er leben!
      Selig soll er sterben!
      Den Himmel soll er erben!

   Gott sall 't um lohnen
   met hunderdusen Kronen,
   met hunderdusen R?ckskes an ...
   door k?mp S?nte Martin an!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 13 18:12:52 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:12:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.13 (03) [E/German]
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUL.2004.111252.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Literature

Below are a few related Martinmas songs of the Netherlands.

(Eine kurze Aussprachehilfe f?r Deutschsprachige befindet sich am Ende.)

Enjoy!
Reinhard/Ron

***


Netherlands Limburg (where?)

   Sintemertens veugelke
   Haet n ro?d keugelke
   Haet n blauw stertje
   Danke, Sintemerte!

Netherlands Limburg (where?)

   Sinte Martens veugeltje,
   Rood, rood, reugeltje,
   Rood, rood rokje an,
   Dat is Sinte Martens man.


Venloo (Netherlands):



   Sinter Merte's veugelke
   H?t ein ro?t neugelke
   En ein blouw stertje,
   Hoepsa, Sinter Merte!

Netherlands (where?):

   Kip, kap, kogel,
   Sinte Meertens vogel
   Vloog over dijk, vloog over dam,
   Kwam een schip met appels an.
   Zoeten, zuren, kunnen op 't langste duren.
   Hier woont een rijke man,
   Die ons wel wat geven kan,
   Veul zal hij geven, lang zal hij leven,
   Zalig zal hij sterven,
   't Koninkrijke be?rven
   Geeft ook wat, 'n appel of 'n peer.
   Kom veur ankomende jaar niet we?r.

Lowlands Saxon of Emden (Drenthe, Netherlands -- not of Germany!):

   Kip, kap keugel,
   Sunder-Martens veugel
   Woel so wi?t flegen
   Al euver den R?n.
   Hei je Sunder-Martens veugel niet sien?
   Sunder-Martens gense
   Sunt ook gaar te bense,
   Biten de olle wive
   De titten van den live,
   Braden ze op 'n reuster,
   Smekken ze as 'n keuster.
   D'r vlogen twee robiintjes na 't papenhoes to,
   Dat papenhoes weer d'r versloten,
   De himmel stoen speerwijd open.
   Als Josef oet de schale kwam,
   He har d'r geen botter,
   He har d'r geen brood,
   He lee siin kop in Marye heur schoot.
   Marye dee har d'r goerrel an,
   Daar hongen wol doesent klokjes an.
   De klokjes foengen an to pingelen,
   Leeve engeltjes foengen an to singen,
   Van hier an, van daar an.
   Boven woont de rike man,
   Dee oens waal wat geven kan.
   Rike man te pere,
   Oense lieve Heere
   Dee let wassen
   Good koorn oet good flassen,
   Good koorn oen good liinsaad.
   Trooke, is dat geen hoesgeraad?

Lowlands Saxon of Emden (Drenthe, Netherlands -- not of Germany!):

   Kip, kap keugel,
   Sunder-Martens veugel
   Sunder-Martens dikkeboek,
   Stekt siin eers to 't fenster oet.
   Hier woont 'n rieke man,
   Die veul geven kan.
   Veul kan he geven,
   Lank zal he leven;
   Wen he koemt to starven,
   De hemel sal he arven,
   God sal 'm lonen
   Mit hondert-doesend kronen,
   Mit hondert-doesend klokjes d'r an,
   Daar koemt Sunder-Marten an.

___
Ungef?hre Aussprache:
   g = ch (wie in ?acht?)
   s = ss, ?
   sch = ?ch
   z = s
   v = zwischen w und f, im Zweifelsfall wie "f"
   oe = u
   eu = ??
   ij = ?i/ai
   ei = ?i/ai
   u (kurz) = zwischen ? und ?, fast wie ? in ?k?sst?
   u (lang) oder uu = ??
   -en = -e (in vielen nieders?chsischen Mundarten auch -n)
   ? = ?
   ? = ?
   ? = vom vorhergehenden Laut getrennt ausgesprochen

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 13 21:23:30 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:23:30 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.13 (04) [D/E/German]
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUL.2004.142330.0700.>

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From: Mathieu van Woerkom <mathieu at brabants.org>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.13 (01) [D/E]

Ron wrote:

> Limburgish-based spelling:
>
>    SINTER M?TES VEUGELSJE
>
>    Sinter M?tes veugelsje
>    heet soe'n roat kapeugelsje.
>    Geflogen, gestoven
>    wiet, wiet euver d? Rhien,
>    w? die vetten verkes sien.
>    Goed vrau, geef oes wat!
>    Aal die hunnerkes legen wat!
>
>    Boven in die v?sje
>    hangen die langen weuste.
>    Geeft oes die langen!
>    L??t die kotten hangen!
>    L??t oes ne soe lang hie sjt??n!
>    Wei meuten en huuske widder g??n,
>    hie van d?n n? ?se,
>    h?len en vetten bl??ssen;
>    hie v??r, d? v??r,
>    v??r die rieke koupmansduer.
>
>       Hier wohnt ein reicher Mann,
>       der uns was geben kann,
>       viel soll er geben, lang soll er leben,
>       selig soll er sterben,
>       das Himmelreich erwerben!
>
>    Die maad, die leup die trappen erop,
>    pak waal in d? neutesak,
>    pak waal ne derneven.
>    Se w?d oes waal wat geven.
>    Gif wat, haul wat,
>    tegen't j??r wir wat.
>
>    Sinter M?tes sjtoepsjtat.
>    Sjmiet en appel duar dat gat!
>    Sjmiet en ne soe wiet,
>    sus v?lt he in en driet.
>    Sjmiet en ne soe hat,
>    sus v?lt he in et gat!
>
>    Moes, moes, koem eroet!
>    Gif oes ?ppel oen neute!
>    ?ppel oen neute siend soe goed
>    v??r d?n aulen patsvoot!

It is indeed remarkable to see how much the dialect of M?hlheim resembles
Limburgish, this especially comes out when you use Limburgish spelling, of
course.

Where exactly is M?hlheim, and does this count for all dialects in the
Ruhr-area?

regards,
Mathieu

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Literature

Beste Franz,

Bij ons (Belgisch West-Brabant) wordt Sint-Maarten niet gevierd voor zover
ik weet, maar in de naburige Denderstreek (omgeving Aalst), is hij wel
populair. Je kan meer informatie vinden op
http://www.meertens.knaw.nl/feesten/sintmaarten.html . De liedjes zelf kan
je horen op http://www.meertens.knaw.nl/feesten/sintmaartenszingen.html#2 (+
teksten).

Tussen haakjes, het Brabantse Mollem wordt in het plaatselijke dialect
"M?llem" uitgesproken, net zoals M?lheim in het M?lheims lijkt het wel.

Met vriendelijke groeten,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Literature

Hoi, Mathieu!

> It is indeed remarkable to see how much the dialect of M?hlheim resembles
> Limburgish,

See?  I told you so.  ;-)

> this especially comes out when you use Limburgish spelling, of
> course.

Just the result I was shooting for.  :-)

Yep, much of what we find "weird" in each other's Lowlands varieties is only
due to "orthographic distortions," especially where political boundaries
have led to orthographic alienation.  We'd be "cookin' with grease" if we
had a uniform spelling system for all varieties.

> Where exactly is M?hlheim,

Here's something starting you off with:

M?hlheim on Ruhr (and there are other M?hlheims, such as the one on the Main
river) is just a bit southwest of Essen and a bit east of Duisburg (which is
just east of Krefeld).  Go a bit farther west from Duisburg, and you cross
the border into the Netherlands and hit Venlo and Tegelen.

See this map:
http://www.daf.uni-mainz.de/landeskunde/1999_2/Essen/Images/Ruhrgebiet.jpg

> and does this count for all dialects in the
> Ruhr-area?

I'm not sure if it applies to *all* dialects, but I am pretty sure that it
applies to many, where the old Low Franconian dialects are still alive, that
is.  I hope others can help us here.  I know that the dialect of
Viesche/Vi?sje/Viersen is rather similar, and I have always thought of it as
some sort of quasi-Limburgish at least.  This town is situated southwest of
Krefeld, right next to M?nchengladbach, is thus geographically even closer
to "official" Limburg.  I imagine that, if still alive, the dialects of
places such as M?nchengladbach, Nettetal, Lobberich, S?chteln and Kempen are
pretty close to Limburgish proper, if they should not be considered parts of
Limburgish.  Once you start heading southeast from there you hit the
Ripuarian dialect area (e.g., Cologne).

This is what German Wikipedia has to say
(http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niederrheinische_Sprache):
<quote>

Als Niederrheinische oder besser Niederrheinisch-Bergische Sprache
bezeichnet man die in Deutschland gesprochenen niederfr?nkischen Dialekte.
Diese gliedern sich grob in:

  a.. Limburgisch-Bergische Dialekte gesprochen in Krefeld, M?nchengladbach,
den Kreisen Viersen, Heinsberg, Mettmann, sowie im n?rdlichen Kreis Neuss,
im Kreis Mettmann, in D?sseldorf, Solingen und Remscheid
  a.. Kleverl?ndische Dialekte, gesprochen am unteren Niederrhein, im
westlichen Ruhrgebiet und im ?stlichen bergischen Land.
W?hrend die Kleverl?ndischen Mundarten eindeutig als niederl?ndische
Dialekte eingeordnet werden k?nnen, ist die Zuordnung der
limburgisch-bergischen Mundarten umstritten.

Die sehr stark von der deutschen Hochsprache abweichende Niederrheinische
Sprache wurde nach dem zweiten Weltkrieg mehr und mehr von dieser verdr?ngt.

</quote>
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limburgisch-Bergisch
<quote>


Limburgisch-Bergisch
aus Wikipedia, der freien Enzyklop?die
Limburgisch-Bergisch (auch Westplatt) ist eine Dialektgruppe des
S?dniederfr?nkischen, deren Dialekte sowohl in Belgien und den Niederlanden
(Limburgs) als auch in Deutschland am mittleren und s?dlichen Niederrhein,
in D?sseldorf und in Teilen des Bergischen Landes gesprochen werden. Die
Uerdinger Linie trennt das Limburgisch-Bergische von den ?brigen
niederdeutschen und niederl?ndischen Mundarten. Zum Limburgisch-Bergischen
z?hlen folgende Dialekte:

  a.. Westlimburgisch (St. Truiden-Hasselt-Weert)
  b.. Zentrallimburgisch (Tongeren-Maaseik-Panningen)
  c.. S?dlimburgisch (St. Maartens-Voeren-Hombourg-Hergenrath-Epen)
  d.. Ostlimburgisch
(Hertogs-Voeren-Sittard-Roermond-Heinsberg-Viersen-Krefeld)
  e.. Bergisch (D?sseldorf-M?lheim an der Ruhr-Solingen-Remscheid-Wuppertal)
Umstritten ist, ob das "Limburgisch-Bergische" als Dialekt des
Niederl?ndischen oder als eigene Sprache aufgefasst werden soll. In den
Niederlanden genie?t das "Limburgisch-Bergische" den Status einer
Regionalsprache.

In Deutschland wird das "Limburgisch-Bergische" h?ufig gemeinsam mit dem
Kleverl?ndischen (einer unbestritten niederl?ndischen Mundart) als
"Niederrheinische" oder "Niederrheinisch-Bergische" Sprache zusammengefasst.
</quote>

Franz,

Unser treuer belgischer Freund Luc Hellinckx schrieb oben, dass bei ihm im
Westbrabantischen St. Martin nicht gefeiert wird, w?hrend sich dieses Fest
jedoch im benachbarten Denderstreek (Kreis Aalst) sehr gro?er Beliebtheit
erfreut.

Weitere Informationen: http://www.meertens.knaw.nl/feesten/sintmaarten.html
Lied mit Ton und Text:
http://www.meertens.knaw.nl/feesten/sintmaartenszingen.html#2

Luc f?gte hinzu, dass der Name des Brabantische Mollem wie "M?llem"
ausgesprochen wird und somit dem einheimischen Namen "M?lm" f?r M?lheim sehr
?hnlich ist.

Wird "M?lm" nicht auch eher wie "M?llem" ausgesprochen?

Groetjes,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 13 21:55:52 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:55:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.13 (05) [E/German]
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUL.2004.145552.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Literature

Franz, folks,

Mathieu hat mir privat mitgeteilt, dass das "g" im Limburgischen "weich"
ausgesprochen wird, etwa wie in deutsch "ich".

Mathieu notified me privately that the Limburgish pronunciation of "g" is
"soft," about like in German _ich_.

Mathieu also gave me some spelling pointers for my Limburgish
transliteration of the M?hlheim Martinmas song.  Below is my revision on
that basis.

I wonder if I should use "ae" instead of "?" ...

Enjoy!
Reinhard/Ron

***
   SINTER M?TES VEUGELSJE

   Sinter M?tes veugelsje
   heet soe'n roat kapeugelsje.
   Geflogen, gestoven
   wiet, wiet euver d? Rien,
   w? die vetten verkes sien.
   Goed vrau, geef oes wat!
   Aal die hunnerkes legen wat!

   Boven in die v?sje
   hangen die langen weuste.
   Geeft oes die langen!
   Laot die kotten hangen!
   Laot oes ne soe lang hie sjtaon!
   Wei meuten en huuske widder gaon,
   hie van d?n n? ?se,
   h?len en vetten bl??ssen;
   hie v??r, d? v??r,
   v??r die rieke koupmansduer.

      Hier wohnt ein reicher Mann,
      der uns was geben kann,
      viel soll er geben, lang soll er leben,
      selig soll er sterben,
      das Himmelreich erwerben!

   Die maad, die leup die trappen erop,
   pak waal in d? neutesak,
   pak waal ne derneven.
   Se w?d oes waal wat geven.
   Gif wat, haul wat,
   tegen't jaor wir wat.

   Sinter M?tes sjtoepsjtat.
   Sjmiet en appel duar dat gat!
   Sjmiet en ne soe wiet,
   sus v?lt he in en driet.
   Sjmiet en ne soe hat,
   sus v?lt he in et gat!

   Moes, moes, koem eroet!
   Gif oes ?ppel oen neute!
   ?ppel oen neute siend soe goed
   v??r d?n aulen patsvoot!

==============================END===================================
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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 13 23:02:04 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:02:04 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.13 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUL.2004.160204.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Literature

Folks,

Below is another text in a Lowlands Franconian variety of Germany,
apparently in the dialect of either Gladbach (Gl?bb??k, Gl?b??k) or Neuss
(N??, Nuus), about a political (anti-Prussian) struggle in 1849.

I present it here in my attempt at a Limburgish transliteration.  You can
find the German-based version and the German translation here:
http://www.wdomes.de/1848/maiunruhen.html

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

D? tsog der Gl?bb?ker Burgerweer
nao Nu?s em jaor 1849

   "Jonges, hoolt dat broe?t herop!
   On mar gau en de kaar gesjtop!
   Die burgerweer sjteet hai om maat
   On es to'm trekke al paraat.
   Dat reep en Gl?bb?k ene b?kkesjbaas!
   Griep die vlent zech oet dem kaas.
   "Plaats haze sjeet ech huut d? Pruus!
   Wir vare mut voraasj no Nuus!"
   Ze treffe boete zech om maat:
   Dale! Wates on de haat.
   Op Nuisjtroate venge Vi?sje wier,
   Dat z?t os ?eves d? sjtaffeterier.
   Frai wir welle maleke l?eve
   On kene penning sjtu?r mie g?eve!
   Freiheit, Gleichheit! Republik!
   Wu?re wier maar die Pruse kwit."
   Van der tribuun do hu?t mer dat,
   Op d'r maat woer die gesat,
   On die luud mut kloare trakteert,
   On van M e c h e l rait animeert.
   Twaai mut roe? mutskes
   Klumde en d'r toe?r;
   Um vuur die klok te trekke,
   Net op wol make d? pastoe?r.
   Noe koame ze duur alle poate
   Em blau? kiel heraangesjoate.
   Die vlent, montoer on anger denge,
   Dat daaite ze en Nuus te venge.
   Daglu?ner von de iezerbaan,
   D? Hendrik holde die heraan.
   Die koame mut de sjup om ruk.
   Op klompe m?nnige och noch vluk.
   On d? notaar heel noch en reed.
   "Zum Abmarsch!" woad dan kommandeert.
   Roe? b?ndsjes, am hoot on um de been,
   Riek on ?rm, ze lepe ongereen.
   Votwoarjuus d? letste man,
   Klom da baas op zien gespan;
   Noam noch mut twaai lu?ze ritter:
   Kau?rts Waailern on Bussems Pitter.
   En kotte tied geng alles good.
   D'r ene meek dem angere moot.
   Dat ze kriege kleen da Pruus,
   Dat meke ze zech zelver wis.
   Wie ze noe voare en et Butger Lang,
   Soage ze Leberger uzel mut zang.
   Do repe die kreger: "Dat zend die kanon!"
   On bang on verwongert blieve ze sjton:
   "Allons enfants de la patrie,
   D? bokseboam da halt net mi?!"
   Zie repe hulp en u?rer noe?t
   On sjloge op die kaar mut broe?t
   On riete oet no alle zie?;
   No kaar on p??d kiek niemes mie.
   ?ver och da vusjte trek
   Hot zech unuuslerwies versjrek.
   Zie sjtoave vot no alle zie?,
   Hulane vonge kene mie?.
   Koom als langs Melledonk zie woare,
   Loage ze zech al en die hoare.
   Wolle guk die sjenke aete,
   Die repoebliek woar al vergaete.
   So leep al vuur on no gants husj.
   Da en no'm angere en d'r busj.
   Die boks, die geng mut gronkies drieve.
   "Wu?re wier maar teheem geblieve!"

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 14 04:08:55 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:08:55 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.13 (07) [E/German]
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUL.2004.210855.0700.>

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From: Jan Strunk <strunkjan at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.13 (04) [D/E/German]

Hello,

Mathieu wrote:
> Where exactly is M?hlheim, and does this count for all dialects in the
> Ruhr-area?

This kind of dialect is not at all typical for the Ruhr area. First of all,
nowadays people
in the whole Ruhr area speak a relatively homogenous dialect often called
Ruhrdeutsch which
is basically Standard German on quite a strong Low Franconian and Low Saxon
substrate.
Moreover, most of the Ruhr area was (and still is in very small remnants)
Low Saxon speaking,
the South Westphalian dialect to be precise (all towns west of Bottrop and
north of Essen and the
whole Sauerland). Only small parts of Essen, the whole of M?hlheim and
some even more western towns were/are Low Franconian speaking.

I'll try to give a small translation of a part of the song in Ruhrdeutsch
and Westphalian.

Ruhrdeutsch:
>    Sjmiet en appel duar dat gat!
Schmei? nen appel durch dat loch
>    Sjmiet en ne soe wiet,
Schmei? ihn nich so weit
>    sus v?lt he in en driet.
sons f?llta inne driete (oder innen dreck)
>    Sjmiet en ne soe hat,
Schmei? ihn nich so feste
>    sus v?lt he in et gat!
sons f?llta int loch

Westphalian (Disclaimer: I am not a native speaker...)
>    Sjmiet en appel duar dat gat!
Smiet en appel d??r dat gat
>    Sjmiet en ne soe wiet,
smiet en nich sau wiet
>    sus v?lt he in en driet.
s?ss falt he inne driete
>    Sjmiet en ne soe hat,
smiet en nich sau hat
>    sus v?lt he in et gat!
s?ss falt he int gat

Gued gaon!

Jan Strunk
strunk at linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Literature

Thanks for explaining today's linguistic situation in the Ruhr Region above,
Magister Johannes.

North Saxon:
>>    Sjmiet en appel duar dat gat!
>Smiet en appel d??r dat gat
Smiet een Appel d?r(ch) dat Gatt!
Smyt eyn appel d?r(ch) dat gat!

>>    Sjmiet en ne soe wiet,
>smiet en nich sau wiet
Smiet em nich so (~ sau) wiet!
Smyt em nich sou wyd!

>>    sus v?lt he in en driet.
>s?ss falt he inne driete
S?ss fallt he in'n Schiet.
S?s(t) valt hey in d'n schyt.

>>    Sjmiet en ne soe hat,
>smiet en nich sau hat
Smiet em nich so (~ sau) hatt (~ hart)!
Smyt em nich sou hat (~ hart)!

>>    sus v?lt he in et gat!
>s?ss falt he int gat
S?ss fallt he in dat Gatt.
S?s(t) valt hey in dat gat.

Leute,
Um der niederfr?nkischen und nieders?chsischen Begegnung ?ber die
politischen Grenzen hinweg weiterhin dienlich zu sein, liefere ich
untenstehend die vorher gebrachten St.-Martins-Verse aus den Niederlanden in
deutscher Schreibweise.

Folks,
In order to continue helping the Lowlands Franconian and Lowlands Saxon
rendezvous across the political border I am supplying the previously posted
Martinmas verses from the Netherlands with German-based spelling.

Gru?/Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

Niederl?ndisch-Limburg (wo?):
Netherlands Limburg (where?):

>   Sintemertens veugelke
>   Haet n ro?d keugelke
>   Haet n blauw stertje
>   Danke, Sintemerte!

   Ssinte Mertens V?gelke
   H?t 'n rooet K?gelke,
   H?t 'n blau Stertje.
   Danke, Ssinte Merte!

Niederl?ndisch-Limburg (wo?):
Netherlands Limburg (where?):

>   Sinte Martens veugeltje,
>   Rood, rood, reugeltje,
>   Rood, rood rokje an,
>   Dat is Sinte Martens man.

   Ssinte Martens V?geltje,
   Root, root R?geltje,
   Root, root Rockje an.
   Dat is Ssinte Martens Mann.

Venloo (Niederlande):
Venloo (Netherlands):

>   Sinter Merte's veugelke
>   H?t ein ro?t neugelke
>   En ein blouw stertje,
>   Hoepsa, Sinter Merte!

   Ssinter Mertes V?gelke
   H?t ?in rooet N?gelke
   En ?in blau Stertje.
   Huppsa, Ssinter Merte!

Niederlande (wo?):
Netherlands (where?):

>   Kip, kap, kogel,
>   Sinte Meertens vogel
>   Vloog over dijk, vloog over dam,
>   Kwam een schip met appels an.
>   Zoeten, zuren, kunnen op 't langste duren.
>   Hier woont een rijke man,
>   Die ons wel wat geven kan,
>   Veul zal hij geven, lang zal hij leven,
>   Zalig zal hij sterven,
>   't Koninkrijke be?rven
>   Geeft ook wat, 'n appel of 'n peer.
>   Kom veur ankomende jaar niet we?r.

   Kipp, Kapp, Kogel,
   Ssinte Meertens Vogel
   Floog over D?ik, floog over Damm,
   Quam een Schipp met Appels an.
   Suten, s?ren, k?nnen op 't langste d?ren.
   Hier wohnt een r?ike Mann,
   Die ons well wat geven kann.
   V??l sall h?i geven, lang sall h?i leven,
   Salig sall h?i sterven,
   't Koninkr?ike be'erven!
   Geeft ook wat, 'n Appel of 'n Pe?r!
   Komm v??r ankomende Jahr niet we?r.

Nieders?chsisch von Emden (Drenthe, Niederlande -- nicht von Deutschland!):
Lowlands Saxon of Emden (Drenthe, Netherlands -- not of Germany!):

>   Kip, kap keugel,
>   Sunder-Martens veugel
>   Woel so wi?t flegen
>   Al euver den R?n.
>   Hei je Sunder-Martens veugel niet sien?
>   Sunder-Martens gense
>   Sunt ook gaar te bense,
>   Biten de olle wive
>   De titten van den live,
>   Braden ze op 'n reuster,
>   Smekken ze as 'n keuster.
>   D'r vlogen twee robiintjes na 't papenhoes to,
>   Dat papenhoes weer d'r versloten,
>   De himmel stoen speerwijd open.
>   Als Josef oet de schale kwam,
>   He har d'r geen botter,
>   He har d'r geen brood,
>   He lee siin kop in Marye heur schoot.
>   Marye dee har d'r goerrel an,
>   Daar hongen wol doesent klokjes an.
>   De klokjes foengen an to pingelen,
>   Leeve engeltjes foengen an to singen,
>   Van hier an, van daar an.
>   Boven woont de rike man,
>   Dee oens waal wat geven kan.
>   Rike man te pere,
>   Oense lieve Heere
>   Dee let wassen
>   Good koorn oen good flassen,
>   Good koorn oen good liinsaad.
>   Trooke, is dat geen hoesgeraad?

   Kipp, Kapp, K?gel,
   S?nder-Martens V?gel
   Wull so wieet flegen
   All ?ver den Rh??n.
   H?i je S?nder-Martens V?gel niet sien?
   S?nder-Martens G?nse
   S?nd ook gaar te bense,
   Bieten de olle Wieve
   De Titten van den Lieve,
   Braden se op 'n R??ster,
   Smecken se as 'n K??ster.
   D'r flogen twee Robientjes na 't Papenhuus to,
   Dat Papenhuus weer d'r versloten,
   De Himmel stunn speerwiejd open.
   Als Josef ut de Schale quam,
   He harr d'r geen Botter,
   He har d'r geen Broot,
   He lee sien Kopp in Marieje h?r Schoot.
   Marieje dee harr d'r Gurrel an.
   Daar hongen woll dusent Klockjes an.
   De Klockjes fungen an to pingelen,
   Leve Engeltjes fungen an to singen,
   Van hier an, van daar an.
   Boven wohnt de rieke Mann,
   Dee uns waal wat geven kann.
   Rieke Mann te Pere,
   Unse lieve Here,
   De lett wassen
   Goot Koorn un goot Flassen,
   Goot Koorn un goot Liensaat.
   Troke, is dat geen Huusgeraat?

Nieders?chsisch von Emden (Drenthe, Niederlande -- nicht von Deutschland!):
Lowlands Saxon of Emden (Drenthe, Netherlands -- not of Germany!):

>   Kip, kap keugel,
>   Sunder-Martens veugel
>   Sunder-Martens dikkeboek,
>   Stekt siin eers to 't fenster oet.
>   Hier woont 'n rieke man,
>   Die veul geven kan.
>   Veul kan he geven,
>   Lank zal he leven;
>   Wen he koemt to starven,
>   De hemel sal he arven,
>   God sal 'm lonen
>   Mit hondert-doesend kronen,
>   Mit hondert-doesend klokjes d'r an,
>   Daar koemt Sunder-Marten an.

   Kipp, Kapp, K?gel,
   S?nder-Martens V?gel,
   S?nder-Martens Dickebuuk,
   Steekt sien Eers to 't Fenster ut.
   Hier wohnt 'n rieke Mann,
   Die v??l geven kann.
   V??l kann he geven,
   Lank sall he leven;
   Wenn he kummt to starven,
   De Hemel sall he arven,
   Gott sall 'm lohnen
   Mit hondert-dusend Kronen,
   Mit hondert-dusend Klockjes dran.
   Daar kummt S?nder-Marten an.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 14 15:08:17 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:08:17 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.07.14 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUL.2004.080817.0700.>

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From: D.M.Pennington <dmpmos at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.06.22 (02) [E]


Sirs:

As regards the plural of fthe English "shoe", my grandmother (born 1902)
used to use the north-west England Lancashire dialect "shoen" in the plural.

The Lancashire dialect, which is also my native dialect, also uses the Old
English for "she", namely "he" which was pronounced with a long "e" rhyming
with modern English "day".

The present Lancashire dialect pronunciation of the Old English feminine
third person singular personal pronoun differs to that of the Old English in
that the vowel sound has shifted to the "schwa" sound.

Hence mayt southern English speakers think that Lancashire dialect speakers
are saying "her" instead of "she".

The "standard" English: "She has a new husband" would sound to a southerner
like: "Her's getten a new mon."!.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 14 15:10:10 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:10:10 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.14 (02) [German]
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUL.2004.081010.0700.>

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From: Franz Firla <f.firla at web.de>
Subject: "Literature"


Hallo Leute,

herzlichen Dank f?r die Beitr?ge zum Thema ?Ssinter M?tes V?gelsche?. Ich
w?rde mich freuen, wenn auch  weiterhin dazu noch das ein oder andere zu
erfahren ist.
Zu Rons Frage bez?glich der Aussprache von ?M?lm?:
Es stimmt, man spricht es etwas wie ?M?llem? aus, und es wurde um 1920 auch
oft so geschrieben.
Das Umwandeln der Rechtschreibung von Mundartexten in die jeweilige
Bezugssprache (Hochsprache) des heutigen politischen Raumes ist in der Tat
sehr hilfreich beim Vergleich!
Danke auch f?r diese neue Erfahrung!

Chutt choon

b?s doher

Franz

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 14 17:50:27 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:50:27 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.07.14 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUL.2004.105027.0700.>

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From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Morphology


Greetings Lowlanders!

D.M. Pennington wrote:

"The Lancashire dialect, which is also my native dialect, also uses the
Old English for "she", namely "he" which was pronounced with a long "e"
rhyming with modern English "day"."

I don't know what part of Lancashire this usage is from, but I remember my
grandmother's generation still using the third person singular pronoun
_(h)oo_ [with silent _h_, but somehow I always perceived that it was there!]
Although my grandmother and my great aunt lived in Preston I have an idea
that they originated from some country place just outside, but I am fairly
certain that this was true Prestonian usage at one time.

The old form _heo_ for 'she' dropped out of use in most of England in the
12th century; the 1898 edition of the Oxford English Dictionary mentions
that it survived in the south and w. midl. as a literary word till the 15th
c., and is still vernacular from Lancashire to Devon and Sussex, under the
forms hoo, huh (the latter often mistaken for the objective her), uh, u.?

John Duckworth
Preston, UK

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

John (above):

> I don't know what part of Lancashire this usage is from, but I remember
> my grandmother's generation still using the third person singular pronoun
> _(h)oo_ [with silent _h_, but somehow I always perceived that it was
there!]

Might this be due to the absence of a glottal stop ([u:] instead of [?u:])
after pauses?

(This is what happens in certain Hebrew sociolects, by the way, and it
happens to apply in the case of _huw_ > _hu_ ?? [hu(:)] -> [u(:)] 'he'.)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 14 23:45:58 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 16:45:58 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.07.14 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUL.2004.164558.0700.>

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From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Morphology


Ron asked:

"Might this [sc. the absence of initial h- in _hoo_ (she) ]be due to the
absence of a glottal stop ([u:] instead of [?u:]) after pauses?"

Although your Modern Hebrew example is interesting, the answer is no, this
is not due to the absence of a glottal stop; the loss of _h_ is normal and
regular in all positions in the Lancashire dialect of English. I suppose the
fact that I used to feel the h- was still there was an influence from
Standard English.

John Duckworth
Preston, UK.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Thanks, John.

Sorry if I seem overly persistent ...  So you are actually saying, aren't
you, that pairs like _heel_ and _eel_, _heart_ and _art_, and _hoar_ and
_oar_ are pronounced alike, with or without glottal stop?  I just want to be
sure there isn't something you hadn't thought about before now.  ;-)

In Hebrew the difference between a deleted /h/ and an "initial" vowel (which
in writing at least would be after an _'alef_ ? or an _`ayin_ ?, both [?]
nowadays) is that there is no glottal stop in the case of the former but
there is a glottal stop in the case of the latter.

Similarly, in French an original /h/ in Germanic (and Breton?) loans,
although not sounded, reveals itself by the absence of liaison (e.g., _le
havre_ rather than *_l'havre_).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 14 23:54:45 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 16:54:45 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.07.14 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUL.2004.165445.0700.>

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From: passmarts at ig.com.br <passmarts at ig.com.br>
Subject: Doubt

Everybody, please tell me something about the great vowel shift and how it
affected the Dutch language vowel system.I would also like to know about
dutch short and long vowels.

[?vison dos Passos Martins]

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 15 14:38:39 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:38:39 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.15 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUL.2004.073839.0700.>

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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: television/radio

Hi lowlanders,

When anybody wants to listen (and look) to Dutch/Flemish news-items, i
just found a very interesting website:

http://www.nieuwsbronnen.com/algemene/index.html

It gives you a large variety of radio  and television adresses where
you can  hear our languages.
One particular story you have to visit is this link:

http://vrtnieuws.telenet-media.be/nieuwsnet_master/default/systeem/
instellingen_telco/index.html?mode=BB_Telenet&player=Windows

Just click on the sentence: Ja, ik wil een test zien.
You'll find a short selection of a  most popular humorous
televisionprogram. Here, it shows you a class where the pupils want to
learn more about computerlanguage, and the teacher explains it all in
West-Flemish! Have a look, and tell me how it sounds.

Groetjes
luc vanbrabant
oekene

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 15 14:40:31 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:40:31 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.07.15 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUL.2004.074031.0700.>

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From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Morphology [E/N]

Dear all,

Use of the word her. In Northumbrian we say 'hor',
unfortunately pronounced in the same way as a dodgy
lady of the night. Whether this is a corruption of her
or has evolved from the same Lancastrian lineage, I'm
not sure, although Lancaster is part of the wider
northern dialect area.

tek id easy,
Glenn

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 15 14:42:03 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:42:03 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.07.15 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUL.2004.074203.0700.>

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From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Phonology


Ron said:

"Sorry if I seem overly persistent ...  So you are actually saying, aren't
you, that pairs like _heel_ and _eel_, _heart_ and _art_, and _hoar_
and _oar_ are pronounced alike, with or without glottal stop?  I just want
to be sure there isn't something you hadn't thought about before now. ".

True, I haven't thought about it until now, but I still don't think it has
much to do with the presence or otherwise of the glottal stop.The glottal
stop actually performs an important function in the Lancashire Dialect,
often replacing the definite article; this is still often the case in the
very eroded version of the dialect that is spoken today. I have tried
considering whether there is any difference between pairs with etymological
h- or without it when preceded by the article, but it seems to me that there
is not.

Before consonants the definite article is often just a glottal stop /'/, as
in: / am goin t@ ' taun / (I am going to THE town) as opposed to / am goin
t@ taun / (I am going to town).

When I was a child the definite article before a vowel was represented by /
'th / (where th is the theta / thorn sound): / 'thowd man towd me / (the old
man told me). I think it is right to say that the glottal stop may have been
dropped in places. Another variant, which I think may have been an older
version, was to say / t' owd man / (the old man), in which case I am fairly
certain the glottal stop followed the / t /-sound, rather than preceded it.

Now, to get back to h-, in words written with h-, we get the article that
normally precedes vowels. Thus: / i fel in 'th o:l / (he fell in(to) the
hole ) [also / i fel int@ 'th o:l ]. There may be cases today where people
might treat such words as beginning in a consonant, and saying / in ' o:l /,
but these may be a kind of hypercorrection, because I don't remember them
from earlier decades. Of course, some words written with h- followed by a
vowel actually begin with a consonant once the h- isn't pronounced, such as
_huge_, so we would say / in ' yu:j o:l / (in the huge hole).

John Duckworth
Preston, UK


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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 15 15:23:16 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:23:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.07.15 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUL.2004.082316.0700.>

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From: D.M.Pennington <dmpmos at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.07.14 (03) [E]


Dear Sirs:

Sorry!

Slip of the pen!

The Old English for "she" was, indeed, "heo".

I mistakenly wrote previously that "he" (rhyming with Modern English "day")
was the Old English for "she"; I should have written that Old English "he"
gave, after the vowel shift, the Modern English "he".

The Lancashire pronunciation of the modified Old English "heo" that I
referred to is that of the Wigan-Leigh area; this pronunciation sounds like
"her" with a dropped "h" and , as I mentioned previously, sounds to non
Lancastrians as though the speaker is using the third person singular
feminine personal pronoun instead of the standard subject form "she", e.g.
"Her's getten a mard lip!"

I've also heard this dialect usage of the archeic "heo" in the Wolverhampton
area of the West Midlands which leads me to think that the Mercians may have
been the most linguistically conservative of Old English speakers.

The Mercians were, at any rate, extremely conservative in another respect,
namely that they were the last of the Old English to convert to
christianity, and stubbornly fought for years against Christian Northumbrian
incursions.

D.M.Pennington

Moscow

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 15 16:04:06 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:04:06 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2004.07.15 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUL.2004.090406.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Administrativia

Dear Lowlanders,

A number of people have joined us since my last administrative message (July
1), and I would like to welcome them on everyone's behalf.  At the end of
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These few weeks our subscription rate has been on the increase, rising above
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TEMPORARY ABSENCE
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Again, dear Lowlanders, thanks for your support and cooperation and for all
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Nine months to go till our 10th anniversary ...

Regards,
Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
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***

Places of Residence of New Lowlanders since July 1, 2004:

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 15 18:30:10 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:30:10 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.15 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUL.2004.113010.0700.>

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From: Mathieu van Woerkom <mathieu at brabants.org>
Subject: Literature

Ron wrote:

> Mathieu also gave me some spelling pointers for my Limburgish
> transliteration of the M?hlheim Martinmas song.  Below is my revision on
> that basis.
>
> I wonder if I should use "ae" instead of "?" ...

I think you should! Below is my transcription of the Martinmas song, into
Limburgisch spelling system. I made just a few changes to your version.

By the way, is there also a German (or Dutch) translation available? That
way, I might be able to make a Limburgish version of this song, so show the
similarities between Lim. and the dialect of M?hlheim even more.

Regards,
Mathieu

PS: I have heard before that the dialects of the neighboring parts of
Germany have a lot in common with Limburgish. This counts especially for the
area of Selfkant, and the areas just over the border ("euver de p??l") near
the city of Venlo (Nettetal etc.). However, as far as I know, not much
dialect is spoken in those areas anymore.


======

SINTER MAETES VEUGELSJE

Sinter Maetes veugelsje
heet soe'n raod kapeugelsje.
Gevloge, gesjtove
wied, wied euver dae Rien,
wo die vette verkes sien.
Goed vrouw, geef oes wat!
Aal die hunnerkes lege wat!

Baoven in die vaesje
hangen die lange weuste.
Geeft oes die lange!
Laot die kotte hange!
Laot oes nee soe lang hie sjtaon!
Wei meuten en huuske widder gaon,
hie vandaen nao Aesse,
haolen en vettem blaesen;
hieveur, daoveur,
veur die rieke koupmansduer.

Die maad, die l?p die trappen erop,
pak waal in dae neutezak,
pak waal nee d?rneve.
Se waed oes waal wat geve.
Gif wat, haul wat,
tegen't jaor wir wat.

Sinter Maetes sjtoepsjtat.
Sjmiet ?n appel duar dat gat!
Sjmiet ?n nee soe wiet,
sus v?lt hee in ?n driet.
Sjmiet ?n nee soe hat,
sus v?lt hee in ?t gat!

Moes, moes, koem eroet!
Gif oes ?ppel oen neute!
?ppel oen neute siend soe goed
veur den aulen patsvoot!

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Literature

Thanks, Mathieu!

But didn't you forget a few instances of "?"?

Below my update:


SINTER MAETES VEUGELSJE

Sinter Maetes veugelsje
heet soe'n raod kapeugelsje.
Gevloge, gesjtove
wied, wied euver dae Rien,
wo die vette verkes sien.
Goed vrouw, geef oes wat!
Aal die hunnerkes lege wat!

Baoven in die vaesje
hangen die lange weuste.
Geeft oes die lange!
Laot die kotte hange!
Laot oes nee soe lang hie sjtaon!
Wei meuten en huuske widder gaon,
hie vandaen nao Aese,
haolen en vettem blaesen;
hieveur, daoveur,
veur die rieke koupmansduer.

Die maad, die l?p die trappen erop,
pak waal in dae neutezak,
pak waal nee d'rneve.
Se waed oes waal wat geve.
Gif wat, haul wat,
tegen't jaor wir wat.

Sinter Maetes sjtoepsjtat.
Sjmiet 'n appel duar dat gat!
Sjmiet 'n nee soe wiet,
sus vaelt hee in 'n driet.
Sjmiet 'n nee soe hat,
sus vaelt hee in 't gat!

Moes, moes, koem eroet!
Gif oes aeppel oen neute!
Aeppel oen neute siend soe goed
veur den aulen patsvoot!


> By the way, is there also a German (or Dutch) translation available? That
> way, I might be able to make a Limburgish version of this song, so show
the
> similarities between Lim. and the dialect of M?hlheim even more.

If there isn't, I understand all but the following words.  Perhaps someone
can help with those.

kapeugelsje (hood, crest?)
gesjtove
vaesje
blaesen
haul (fetch? bring?)
sjtoepsjtat
patsvoot

By the way, it would be neat if people who deal with Limburgish would
present to the Limburgish language community some of this sort of material
from obviously very closely related varieties of Germany.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 16 14:27:41 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:27:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.07.16 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUL.2004.072741.0700.>

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From: D.M.Pennington <dmpmos at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.07.15 (03) [E]


Dear Lancastrians and any other intereted parties:

For me, the classic example of the glottal stop in Lancashire is the
Lancastrian rendition of: "It isn't in the tin" which sounds like: "Tin tin
tin"!

D.M.Pennington

Moscow

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 16 15:22:32 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:22:32 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.16 (02) [E/German]
Message-ID: <FRI.16.JUL.2004.082232.0700.>

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From: Franz Firla <f.firla at web.de>
Subject: Literature


Hallo Leute,

eine ?bersetzung des Textes und auch Erl?uterungen und "even more" befindet
sich unter der von mir bereits angegebenen Internetadresse.
Hier die spezielle Seite:
http://www.muelheim-ruhr.de/text_und_uebersetzung.html

Zu den einzelnen W?rtern:

kapeugelsje (hood, crest?) = kleine Kaputze, von lat. cappa
gesjtove = gestoben, von auseinanderfliegen
vaesje = F?sche, Dachgeb?lk, First, wo fr?her die W?rste hingen
blaesen = Bl?sse, eine Kuh mit wei?er Stirnzeichnung
haul (fetch? bring?) = holen
sjtoepsjtat = Stummelschwanz, abgeschnittener Schwanz
patsvoot = Pferdefu?, Zeichen des Teufels, vor dem Mittelalter: Pan


viel Spa?

Gr??e

Franz


----------

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Literature

Thanks, Franz.

Here is my translation into English (with notes):

   St. Martin's birdies --
   (Had) Wore such little red hoods --
   Have flown, have scattered
   Far, far across the Rhine,
   Where the fat pigs are.

   Dear lady, give us something.
   All chickens lay something.
   Long sausages are hanging
   Up under the rafters.
   Give us the long ones,
   and leave the short ones hanging.
   Don't let us standing here all that long.
   We've got to go on to the next house.

   From here to Essen
   To get a fat cow with a blaze. [1]

   In front of this, in front of that,
   In front of the rich merchant's door.

   <German>
      Here lives a wealthy man
      That can give us something.
      Much shall he give!
      Long shall he live!
      Blessed shall he die,
      Shall inherit heaven.
   </German>

   The maid runs up the stairs,
   Puts her hand into the bag of nuts,
   Hopefully won't miss.
   Hopefully will give us something.
   Give something, hold [onto] something,
   Next year again something.

   St. Martin's stubby tail! [2]
   Throw the apple through he hole!
   Don't throw it too far,
   Or it'll fall into the muck.
   Don't throw it too hard,
   Or it'll fall into the hole.
   Mouse, mouse, come on out! [3]
   Give us apples and nuts!
   Apples and nuts are so good
   For warding off the old Horse's Foot. [4]

[1] ??sse-Bl??sse: reference to Essen's cattle market
[2] reference to a Rhenish custom
[3] reference to exterminating vermin by means of brushwood and straw
[4] the devil

If the owner gives the children nothing, they sing:

   Dat Huus, dat steiht op einem Pinn,
   do wonnt d? chitzige (soa un soa) drinn!

   Dat hoes, dat staait op aainem pin.
   Dao wont dae gitsige (zoa oen zoa) d'r in.

   The house stands on a single pin/peg.
   Miserly [name] lives in it.

By the way, that's a nice website of the city of M?hlheim
(http://www.muelheim-ruhr.de/).  Nice also that there are an English version
and a French version besides the German one.  I just wish that, given the
neighborhood, there were a version in Dutch, if not in Limburgish also.  If
the city is interested in creating such versions, perhaps a couple of our
subscribers could be recruited.

?brigens ist das eine nette Website der Stadt von M?hlheim
(http://www.muelheim-ruhr.de/). Sch?n ist es auch, da? eine englische und
eine franz?sische Version au?er der deutschen geboten werden. Wenn man
allerdings die Nachbarschaft bedenkt, w?re es nett, wenn es auch eine
niederl?ndische Version g?be, wenn nicht sogar eine limburgische. Sollte die
Stadt daran interessiert sein, k?nnten vielleicht einige von unseren
Abonnenten daf?r angeworben werden.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Jul 17 15:51:15 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 08:51:15 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.17 (01) [D]
Message-ID: <SAT.17.JUL.2004.085115.0700.>

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From: Mathieu van Woerkom <mathieu at brabants.org>
Subject: resources

Beste Laaglanders,

De Nederlandse provincie Noord-Brabant heeft (via de Stichting het Brabants)
sinds kort een streektaalfunctionaries aangesteld, zie persbericht
hieronder:

-------------

Met ingang van 1 juli 2004 is dr. Jos Swanenberg (36) uit 's-Hertogenbosch
door Stichting het Brabants aangesteld als streektaalfunctionaris. De
streektaalfunctionaris is een co?rdinator ten behoeve van de Noord-Brabantse
dialecten en werkt in het Erfgoedhuis Noord-Brabant in 's-Hertogenbosch,
behalve op vrijdag, wanneer hij op de Katholieke Universiteit Nijmegen
werkt.
De streektaalfunctionaris zal zich bezighouden met het verspreiden en
verwerven van kennis over Brabantse dialecten; dat wil zeggen dat hij
informatie beschikbaar stelt en onderzoek doet. Hij kan dus inspelen op
vragen over Brabantse dialecten en hij ondersteunt indien nodig bestaande
dialectactiviteiten of begint nieuwe activiteiten. U kunt de
streektaalfunctionaris bereiken via josswanenberg at erfgoedbrabant.nl of tel.
073-6156282.

http://www.erfgoedbrabant.nl
http://www.brabants.org

--------------

Groeten,
Mathieu

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Jul 18 20:19:12 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 13:19:12 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.07.18 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.18.JUL.2004.131912.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Dear Lowlanders,

Last week we talked about M?hlheim (M?lm) on the Ruhr river, a city in
Germany near the Netherlands border at Limburg.

My penny was once again slow to drop.  I admit this to demonstrate how
orthographic differences can throw a person off, how such differences can
obscure relationships that otherwise might be obvious.

I take it that the name of the river called _Ruhr_ in German is spelled
_Roer_ in Limburgish and Dutch (German _uh_ and Dutch _oe_ denoting the same
sound [u:], as in "tour").  If so, I further assume that the name of the
Limburgish city of Roermond means "Roer Mouth" (_Ruhrm?ndung_ in German),
with "mouth" as in Plymouth, Yarmouth, etc.  Is this correct?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Jul 18 22:13:58 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:13:58 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.07.18 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.18.JUL.2004.151358.0700.>

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From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.07.18 (01) [E]

R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> wrote:
 >
> I take it that the name of the river called _Ruhr_ in German is spelled
> _Roer_ in Limburgish and Dutch (German _uh_ and Dutch _oe_ denoting the
same
> sound [u:], as in "tour").
 >
No, that's not correct. The river Ruhr and Roer are 2 separate rivers.
The river Roer is actually called Rur (without the h) in Germany.

 > If so, I further assume that the name of the
> Limburgish city of Roermond means "Roer Mouth" (_Ruhrm?ndung_ in German),
> with "mouth" as in Plymouth, Yarmouth, etc.  Is this correct?
>
That it does. Exept it'd be _Rurm?ndung_ in Germany, again without the h.

Henry

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Names

Beste Ron,

> I take it that the name of the river called _Ruhr_ in German
> is spelled _Roer_ in Limburgish and Dutch (German _uh_ and
> Dutch _oe_ denoting the same sound [u:], as in "tour").  If
> so, I further assume that the name of the Limburgish city of
> Roermond means "Roer Mouth" (_Ruhrm?ndung_ in German), with
> "mouth" as in Plymouth, Yarmouth, etc.  Is this correct?

You're definitely right, but the Ruhr-river like in "M?lheim an der Ruhr" is
another river than in "Roermond". M?lheim is located on the right bank of
the river Rhine, whereas the Roer-river, like in Roermond (cf. "Ruregemunde"
in 1130), is on the left bank. This Roer originates in the German-speaking
part of Belgium (B?tgenbach), flows through the German cities of D?ren and
J?lich and then finally hits Roermond, where it runs into the Maas. Rivers
that are called "Roer" (and the like) get their names because they are
swift-flowing, cf. "roeren" (D), "r?hren" (G), "to stir" (E), and "hr?r"
(Old English), meaning "movement".

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.07.18 (01) [E]

Ron,
Everybody will indeed explain you, that "monde" means mouth. In dutch
the official word is monding.
But even in the north of France you have Germanic toponyms like f.e.
Deulemont near Lille. It is not a mount or mont, but a "mond", - in this
particular case the mouth or "mond" of the river Deule.
In Flanders you have several "monde" toponyms , like f.e. Rupelmonde,
Dendermonde.

Denis Dujardin

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Thank you so much for your responses (above), Henry, Luc and Denis!

Henry:

> No, that's not correct. The river Ruhr and Roer are 2 separate rivers.
> The river Roer is actually called Rur (without the h) in Germany.

Luc:

> You're definitely right, but the Ruhr-river like in "M?lheim an der Ruhr"
> is another river than in "Roermond".

I could have looked at a map, couldn't I?  ;-)  But by the time the penny
had dropped I had become so sure about my "discovery" that I didn't bother
...

Luc:

> Rivers that are called "Roer" (and the like) get their names because they
> are swift-flowing, cf. "roeren" (D), "r?hren" (G), "to stir" (E), and
"hr?r"
> (Old English), meaning "movement".

So the Roer (German _Rur_) and the Ruhr may be two rivers bearing the same
name.  Right?

Denis:

> Everybody will indeed explain you, that "monde" means mouth. In dutch
> the official word is monding.

In the North Saxon dialects of Lowlands Saxon (Low German) it tends to be
_m?n_ (usually written <M?nn> in German-based spelling).  I am not sure if
it comes from _munde_ (> m?nde > m?nne > m?n, as in the place name G.
Travem?nde, LS _Travem?nn_ "mouth of the Trave river") or from _m?nnen_
(pronounced [mY.n(:)]).*   So you say for instance _Elv-m?n_ (_Elvm?nn_) for
'mouth of river Elbe'.

* _M?nnen_ would be a nominalized infinitive, which in the modern dialects
tends to replace verb-derived nouns ending with old _-ing_ (German _-ung_,
English _-ing_).  In most dialects, _-ing_ has disappeared.  (I think it's
still widely used in Eastern Friesland, Oldenburg and other areas near the
Netherlands border.)  The German suffix _-ung_ tends to be used with German
loans only but tends to be avoided also; thus _rekening_ > _reken_ (G.
Rechnung) 'reckoning', 'bill', _regering_ > _regeren_ (G. Regierung)
'government', ?versetting > ?versetten 'translation', but German-derived
_satzung_ (formerly _wet_, still used in some dialects) 'statutes'.

Regards,
Reuinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul 19 02:59:04 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:59:04 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.18 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.18.JUL.2004.195904.0700.>

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Etymology

Beste li?glanners,

Films like "Shrek" and "Lord of the Rings" seem to have one important
character in common, and that's the revival of "Orcus". Linguistically at
least. "Orcus" is the Roman God of death and the underworld, and has come to
us in many shapes and forms, during the last two thousand years:

"ogre" (E, 18th century) < "ogre" (French, early 14th century < *orc) ~
"orco" (Italian, bogeyman) ~ "?r(re)k" (B) (harsh and callous person,
tyrant, 16th century, but still in use today) ~ "orke" (Middle High German)
~ "(n)org" (elfish creature in many (South?) German(ic) folk tales, the
initial _n_ can result from the final n of the article preceding it) ~ "Orc"
(Tolkien)

Whether the killer whale "orc(a)" is also related to this family, is not
sure. Maybe the maker of the tv-series "Mork and Mindy" (in the late 70's)
was also inspired by "Orc", when he created "Mork from Ork" (played by Robin
Williams; Ork was a planet where the inhabitants had very different
feelings...if any *s*)?

There's another word that has puzzled me lately, "camelot" being the case.
In Brabantish, "kammelot" is used for anything which is low-quality and
inferior, "ersatz" we also say (< German occupation during WW2). "Camelot"
used to be an expensive fabric from the Middle East however (made of camel
hair...hence the name), but quite soon cheap imitation stuff started
circulating and so it got a bad name. Now I wonder if there could be any
relationship with king Arthur's Camelot...and if so, how???

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul 19 16:11:19 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:11:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.19 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.19.JUL.2004.091119.0700.>

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.18 (03) [E]

Beste Luc Hellinckx

Subject: Etymology

> Films like "Shrek" and "Lord of the Rings" seem to have one important
> character in common, and that's the revival of "Orcus". Linguistically at
> least. "Orcus" is the Roman God of death and the underworld, and has come
to
> us in many shapes and forms, during the last two thousand years:

> "ogre" (E, 18th century) < "ogre" (French, early 14th century < *orc) ~
> "orco" (Italian, bogeyman) ~ "?r(re)k" (B) (harsh and callous person,
> tyrant, 16th century, but still in use today) ~ "orke" (Middle High
German)
> ~ "(n)org" (elfish creature in many (South?) German(ic) folk tales, the
> initial _n_ can result from the final n of the article preceding it) ~
"Orc"
> (Tolkien)

Well, in Afrikaans schoolboy slang, to call someone an 'urk' - [@rk] is to
denounce him as a graceless monstrosity. I have never found that word in a
dictionary, but my mother a & grandmother knew it, though they denied ever
using it! So use goes back to before 'The Hobbit' & 'The Lord of the Rings'.

That is not the only insinuation of S. African 'schoolboy language' into
Tolkien's books. Here is another, from the Hobbit, where Bilbo teases the
spiders in Mirkwood to a frenzy by singing a song calling them 'attercop',
Afrikaans 'etterkop' - (pus-head) . This word was identified to his
correspondants by Tolkien as from Old English 'Aetercop' - (poison head);
suitable for an adder or a spider, but sure'nuff in his childhood in
Bloemfontein, the use of that word would have reduced the entire school
playground to a shocked & echoing silence.

> There's another word that has puzzled me lately, "camelot" being the case.
> In Brabantish, "kammelot" is used for anything which is low-quality and
> inferior, "ersatz" we also say (< German occupation during WW2). "Camelot"
> used to be an expensive fabric from the Middle East however (made of camel
> hair...hence the name), but quite soon cheap imitation stuff started
> circulating and so it got a bad name. Now I wonder if there could be any
> relationship with king Arthur's Camelot...and if so, how???

Could the Arthurian 'Camelot' have something to with the Romano-British
'Camelodinum'?

Groete,
Mark

----------

From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.18 (03) [E]

Hello Luc,

You wrote "the initial _n_ can result from the final n of the article
preceding it". You seem to assume that Dutch words 'nurk, nurks', East
Brabant 'n?rk' "grumbler, grumpy and unfriendly person" were derived from
the adjective 'ork', Kiliaan 'orck' next to 'norck', Middle Dutch 'norke'
"surly, grumpy". This view is not supported by Franck/Van Wijk's
Etymologisch Woordenboek, which states "Kil. norck  enz. is bezwaarlijk een
jongere, naast Kil. orck, als znw. Nog zuidndl. dial. [..], opgekomen vorm."
To me it is unclear which form was original and which secondary.

Best regards,

Roger Hondshoven

----------

From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Etymology

Luc said:

"There's another word that has puzzled me lately, "camelot" being the
case."

Strangely, I don't think the name _Camelot_ appears in the earlier accounts
of King Arthur. It is difficult though not to see in it the Romano-British
place name (Colonia) Camulodunum, a city now known as Colchester in Essex.
Various attempts have been made to identify KIng Arthur's Camelot with
Cadbury Castle (the largest ancient hillfort in Somerset) and with the Welsh
town of Caerleon, but can there really be any doubt that Camelot <
Camelodunum.

Camelodunum incidentally comes from the name of a Celtic god of war Camulos,
and hence means 'Fort (dun) of Camulos'.

Regarding the cloth of which you speak, Grimms Deutsche Woerterbuch gives it
as: Kamelott, Kamelot or Camelott, and defines it as a material originally
made of camel wool, but which now usually refers to a half-woolen material.
The word also occurs as French camelot / chamelot; Spanish camelote; Italian
cambellotto, ciambelotto; and English camlet / camelot.

The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary gives Camlet, which at first referred
to a very fine, opulent cloth from the east, but was later used to refer to
a less expensive material. It gives the etymology as being from the Arabic
khamlah (  nap, the pile of velvet).(Nap < Middle Dutch = a hairy or downy
surface [on cloth]).

The two words are therefore not related.

John Duckworth
Preston, UK

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Roger (above):

> East Brabant 'n?rk' "grumbler, grumpy and unfriendly person"

I wonder if this one is related to German _n?rgeln_ 'to grumble', 'to
complain', 'to criticize' (which is attested only since the 17th century).

Luc Hellinckx wrote yesterday under "Names":

> Rivers
> that are called "Roer" (and the like) get their names because they are
> swift-flowing, cf. "roeren" (D), "r?hren" (G), "to stir" (E), and "hr?r"
> (Old English), meaning "movement".

Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _r?yren_ (<r?hren> [r?:3`n] ~ [ry:3`n]) 'to
stir', 'to move'.

'Stir' applies in both senses: (1) transitive: to stir = to mix, (2)
intransitive: to stir = to move.

The _Herkunftsduden_ (which I do not entirely trust when it comes to
non-German items) gives Old English _hroe^ran_ (ligature oe with a macron).
Can anyone think of any Modern English and/or Scots derivation of this?

Furthermore, Old Saxon has _hro^r_ 'busy' (= 'diligent'), and Old Englsh has
_hro^r_ 'busy' (= 'diligent'), 'strong', 'courageous'.

Supposedly this goes back to Indo-European *_k^er(@)-_ 'to mix'.  I don't
understand how the extra /r/ got into the mix, though.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul 19 21:42:02 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:42:02 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.19 (02) [E]
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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.19 (01) [E]

Dear Ron & All,

 Subject: Etymology

> > East Brabant 'n?rk' "grumbler, grumpy and unfriendly person"

> I wonder if this one is related to German _n?rgeln_ 'to grumble', 'to
> complain', 'to criticize' (which is attested only since the 17th century).

We, in Afrikaans, use the word 'nors' for one who is surly, crusty,
cantankerous & a whole lot more besides. I thought it had something to do
with our experiences at the hands of Norsemen, (See Aegil's Saga, raiding in
the Netherlands)

> > Rivers that are called "Roer" (and the like) get their names because
they areswift-flowing, cf. "roeren" (D),  > >"r?hren" (G), "to stir" (E),
and "hr?r" (Old English), meaning "movement".

> Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _r?yren_ (<r?hren> [r?:3`n] ~ [ry:3`n]) 'to
> stir', 'to move'.

> The _Herkunftsduden_ (which I do not entirely trust when it comes to
> non-German items) gives Old English _hroe^ran_ (ligature oe with a
macron).
> Can anyone think of any Modern English and/or Scots derivation of this?

We have this from the Old English poem, 'Ardstapa' - The Wanderer, line 4
Hreren mid hondum    hrimcealde sae
(Row with [my] hands    rime-cold sea)
 but 'roar' is a word that originally belongs to water, as in the psalm,
PSALM 46, 3 {King James}
'Though the waters thereof roar, & be troubled,'

In Afrikaans we say 'roei' for row; 'roer' for stir & move

Yrs sincerely,
Mark

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Dag, Mark!

>  but 'roar' is a word that originally belongs to water, as in the psalm,
> PSALM 46, 3 {King James}
> 'Though the waters thereof roar, & be troubled,'

I take "to roar" to belong to a different group of apparently
onomatopoetically derived cognates: Old English _r?rian_, Middle Saxon
_r?ren_ ~ _r?ren_ > Modern Saxon _raren_ ~ _reren_ (<rahren> ~ <rohren> ~
<rehren>), Middle Dutch _reeren_, Old German _r?r?n_ > Middle German _r?ren_
> Modern German _r?hren_ (of male deer during the rut), apparently related
to Slavic words like Russian ????? _rajat'_ 'to sound (loudly)' and
Indo-Aryan words such as Sanskrit ????? _r?yati_ '(he/she/it) barks'.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul 19 22:20:55 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:20:55 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.19 (03) [E]
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Folks,

I have been wondering about the phrase "... across the Rhine" in a couple of
Martinmas song versions we have been discussing:

Lowlands Franconian of M?lm/M?hlheim on Ruhr, Germany:

>    Ssinter M??tes V??gelsche
>    heet ssu'n roat Kap??gelsche,
>    cheflooge, chestoowe
>    wiet, wiet ??wer d? Rhien,
>    woo die fette Ferkes ssien.
>   ...

>    St. Martin's birdies --
>    (Had) Wore such little red hoods --
>    Have flown, have scattered
>    Far, far across the Rhine,
>    Where the fat pigs are.
>   ...

Lowlands Saxon of Emden (Drenthe, Netherlands)

>   Kip, kap keugel,
>   Sunder-Martens veugel
>   Woel so wi?t flegen
>   Al euver den R?n.
>   Hei je Sunder-Martens veugel niet sien?
>   ...

   Kipp, kapp, keugel (spheres, balls?),
   St. Martin's birds
   Were going to flow so far away
   All over the Rhine.
   Haven't you seen St. Martin's birds?
   ...

Is this only a device to indicate something like "far away" or is it a
reference to historical events, as has been claimed to be the case with
other parts of these songs.

I ought to be safe to assume that this song inventory is an areal one, the
exact origin being unknown.  As far as I can tell, variants of the song are
found on both sides of the Rhine.  So we need to ask "across the Rhine in
which direction, east or west?"

Might this refer to medieval (mostly 12-13th century) migration of Saxons,
Franks and various other Germanic people to predominantly Slavonian-speaking
areas of the east, then touted as the land of milk and honey, ripe for the
picking (as were the Slavs, who were "pagans" and therefore considered fair
game)?

And do the red hoods refer to anything other than birds' crests?

Does anyone have an inkling about any reference to historical events here?
Franz Firla's annotations to the M?lm/M?hlheim version do seem to point to
petrified historical references.

Just wondering ...

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul 19 23:50:35 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:50:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Oral tradition" 2004.07.19 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.19.JUL.2004.165035.0700.>

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: "In the media" [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: In the media
>
> must be taken with a couple of grains of salt.  Nevertheless, it is
> interesting in that it goes beyond the traditional story by incorporating
> some more recent research findings which point toward Arthur having been a
> part-British (i.e., Brython, Pictish) and part-Roman officer in Roman
employ
> who attempted to fill the void when the Romans withdrew from Britain and
the

I'm not really up to date on the theories of Arthur, but I've often wondered
why  Arthurs Seat (a large promontory of volcanic rock within the city of
Edinburgh) is so called.

Also, why is there such a strong tradition of Merlin in Berwickshire in the
Scottish Borders? They have "Merlin's Cave", for example, and a local
tradition that particularly associates Merlin with the river Tweed.

And why do archeologists still keep digging in Wales for evidence of Arthur
when they never manage to find anything? The idea that Avalon or Camelot was
at Glastonbury in Somerset is an obvious linguistic gaffe - Arthur was said
to have built a city of glass, but the "glas" in Glastonbury refers to the
woad that used to be grown there (cf Welsh "glas" - "blue/grey/green").

I was wondering if perhaps, like the works of other Welsh poets, stories of
Arthur were taken to Wales by refugees from the Lothians when the Brythonic
kingdom there fell to the Northumbrians? Does the name "Arthurs Seat" go
back a long way?

I'm prepared to accept that Merlin might have been a real person - he could
have been a "wizard" in the same sense as other Scottish "wizards" such as
Michael Scot and John Napier, scholars whose abilities were so remarkable
that the general populace credited them with magical powers.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul 19 23:58:18 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:58:18 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.19 (05) [E]
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From: Patrick or Cynthia Karl <pkarl at grasshoppernet.com>
Subject: Etymology

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

I take "to roar" to belong to a different group of apparently
onomatopoetically derived cognates: Old English _r?rian_, Middle Saxon
_r?ren_ ~ _r?ren_ > Modern Saxon _raren_ ~ _reren_ (<rahren> ~ <rohren> ~
<rehren>), Middle Dutch _reeren_, Old German _r?r?n_ > Middle German _r?ren_
But note the etymology from the OED entry for the 2nd  instance of roar, n:
Forms: a. 5?6 roore, 5?7 rore. b. 6 roare.  [a. MDu. roer, = OS. hr?ra (LG.
r?re, r?r), OHG. ruora (MHG. ruore, G. ruhr), related to OE. and OS. hr?r
stirring, active: see also rore v. and cf. uproar. The rime of rore: pore (=
poor) in Chaucer proves that the word is different from roar n.1]

This seems semantically and phonetically to be a pretty good match to G.
ruehren.  I don't understand the OED's "G. ruhr" reference, unless it's to
the Ruhr Valley.  Do we know the etymology of that?

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, Patrick or Cynthia (whichever of you sent this).

> This seems semantically and phonetically to be a pretty good match to G.
ruehren.

Indeed!  Note also German _Aufruhr_, Dutch and Afrikaans _oproer_ and
Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _uprour_ (<Uprohr>) ~ _oprour_ (<Oprohr>)
'uproar', 'revolt', 'rebellion'.  So it's a "stirring up."

We might be dealing with coalescence in the case of English, the "roar" of
"uproar" alone being defunct ...

Thanks again.

Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 20 04:39:36 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:39:36 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.19 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.19.JUL.2004.213936.0700.>

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From: Hugo Zweep <hugo.zweep at valuersillawarra.com.au>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.19 (03) [E]

Silly me. I have been looking at this "kip kap keugel" thinking on how
familiar the rhythm of the verses seemed. Not being religious, the St
Maarten bit didn't ring a bell either. Now the bell has rung and the penny
has dropped.

When I was young, in Winschoten, Groningen (the Oldambt area and therefore
close to the German border) during the 1940s, a group of us would go out at
one night during November. We'd have candle lighted lanterns. Paper ones
that folded like a concertina so that you could tend to the candle. Then we
would sing "Kip Kap Kogel ..." after we knocked on a door or rung the bell
and someone opened up.

We'd always be given something. I only remember sweets but there could have
been other things. We would also sing a thank you and then go on our way to
the next house. When we'd have had enough we usually divided the spoils
amongst a group of from 5 to 10 children. I still can't see paper lanterns
without having nostalgic and quite specific memories.

Look up www.sillius.nl/groningana/sintmaarten.html We sang some of those
rhymes especially the second one and I have some recollection of the second
one to be sung if we were refused.

Geuko Zweep

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 20 05:23:15 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 22:23:15 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.19 (07) [A/E/German]
Message-ID: <MON.19.JUL.2004.222315.0700.>

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From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.19 (05) [E]

This from http://www.etymonline.com/

rare (adj.2) - "undercooked," 1655, variant of M.E. rere, from O.E. hrer
"lightly cooked," probably related to hreran "to stir, move." Originally
of eggs, not recorded in reference to meat until 1784, and according to
O.E.D., in this sense "formerly often regarded as an Americanism,
although it was current in many English dialects ...."

uproar - 1526, used as a loan-translation of Ger. Aufruhr or Du. oproer
in Ger. and Du. Bibles (cf. Acts xxi:38), "outbreak of disorder, revolt,
commotion," from Ger. auf "up" + ruhr "a stirring, motion." Meaning
"noisy shouting" is first recorded 1544, probably by mistaken
association with roar. First record of uproarious is from 1819.

David Barrow

-------------

From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.19 (05) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Thanks, Patrick or Cynthia (whichever of you sent this).
>
> > This seems semantically and phonetically to be a pretty good match to G.
> ruehren.
>
> Indeed!  Note also German _Aufruhr_, Dutch and Afrikaans _oproer_ and
> Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _uprour_ (<Uprohr>) ~ _oprour_ (<Oprohr>)
> 'uproar', 'revolt', 'rebellion'.  So it's a "stirring up."
>
> We might be dealing with coalescence in the case of English, the "roar" of
> "uproar" alone being defunct ...

What about the English verb "rear", meaning to raise or lift up (to rear
children, to rear one's head) or, intransitively, to rise on the hind legs
or to tower? The Amer. Heritage Dict. (2nd College ed.) traces it to OE
"roeran", and it definitely carries the idea of motion.

About "orc", I wouldn't say that the "Lord of the Rings" and "Shrek" movies
revived the word. Not only is it used in Tolkien's novel, which has long
been popular and widely read, but orcs appear in the extremely popular
fantasy role-playing genre of games (such as Dungeons & Dragons, which
appeared in the mid-1970s and drew largely from Tolkien at first) and
collectible card games (such as Magic: The Gathering, which came out in the
early 1990s).  I'd say large numbers of Americans under the age of about 45
are quite familiar with the word, even if they don't know where it comes
from.

----------

From: HALLS Haeng-Cho <zzhhalls at student.uq.edu.au>
Subject:

the Sanskrit actually reads as rayita

----------

From: John Baskind <jbaskind at mac.com>
Subject: Etymology

Nuwe Vriende:

Ek is die nuwe lid vanaf Washington, US. Ek het grootgeword in the
Noord-Transvaalse bosveld, in 'n klein dorpie meet een klein drie-kamer
plaasskooltjie. My Afrikaans is dus effens "boers", maar s?? praat ek,
en 'n liewe, lekker ryk taal is dit  vir my ook.

Mark het ges??, ten opsigte van "orc":

> Well, in Afrikaans schoolboy slang, to call someone an 'urk' - [@rk]
> is to
> denounce him as a graceless monstrosity. I have never found that word
> in a
> dictionary, but my mother a & grandmother knew it, though they denied
> ever
> using it! So use goes back to before 'The Hobbit' & 'The Lord of the
> Rings'.
>
> That is not the only insinuation of S. African 'schoolboy language'
> into
> Tolkien's books. Here is another, from the Hobbit, where Bilbo teases
> the
> spiders in Mirkwood to a frenzy by singing a song calling them
> 'attercop',
> Afrikaans 'etterkop' - (pus-head) . This word was identified to his
> correspondants by Tolkien as from Old English 'Aetercop' - (poison
> head);
> suitable for an adder or a spider, [sny]

See this, found at: http://www.tolkiensociety.org/tolkien/biography.html

"...John Ronald ("Ronald" to family and early friends) was born in
Bloemfontein, S.A., on 3 January 1892. His memories of Africa were
slight but vivid, including a scary encounter with a large hairy
spider, and influenced his later writing to some extent; slight,
because on 15 February 1896 his father died, and he, his mother and his
younger brother Hilary returned to England - or more particularly, the
West Midlands."

Daar staan Mark se etterkop, vris en sterk.  Mar ek moet s?? dat,
kontekstu??el  gesproke, dit vir my onredelik is dat 'n vier-jarige
knapie van 'n koloniale Engelse familie "etterkop" kon geleer het.
Sulke "rooinekke" sou nooit Afrikaans geleer het nie, veral in 1896
nie. Nederlands, miskien ja, ??f in die Vrystaat ??f die Transvaal, waar
Nederlands die amptelike taal was.

Nooit "urk" gehoor vanuit enige Afrikaans-sprekende mond, maar dit was
beslis  in my (Engels-sprekende) h??erskool ges??. "Baskind, you bloody
urk, you!" byvoorbeeld.

I've also heard (and used) the expression in London (England), which
was for me, like many SA exiles, a second home during the bad old days.
Roughly, as my friends and I used the expression, it carried the
meaning  of  blunderer or maker of stupid mistakes.

John

John Baskind

mailto:jbaskind at mac.com
360.675.3483
604.488.1020

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Etymology

Beste Roger,

> Hello Luc,
>
> You wrote "the initial _n_ can result from the final n of the
> article preceding it". You seem to assume that Dutch words
> 'nurk, nurks', East Brabant 'n??rk' "grumbler, grumpy and
> unfriendly person" were derived from the adjective 'ork',
> Kiliaan 'orck' next to 'norck', Middle Dutch 'norke'
> "surly, grumpy". This view is not supported by Franck/Van
> Wijk's Etymologisch Woordenboek, which states "Kil. norck
> enz. is bezwaarlijk een jongere, naast Kil. orck, als znw.
> Nog zuidndl. dial. [..], opgekomen vorm."
> To me it is unclear which form was original and which secondary.

Indeed, it wasn't obvious for Franck/Van Wijk which form was original, "ork"
or "nork" (that was 92 years ago by the way). Unfortunately, nor is there
any consensus today, as Prof. dr. A. A. Weijnen writes in his "Etymologisch
Dialectwoordenboek" (1994):

hork: "Waarschijnlijk < *hornik ~ mnl. hornete (~ hornet (E)) 'naam van
verschillende insecten' (usually a "horzel" (D)) and so on...

...again another explanation...which basically means that he too doesn't
seem to believe in what Franck/Van Wijk were not sure about either.
Personally I think that both theories are a little far-fetched. Let me try
to explain.

Semantically speaking, the words starting with _n_ describe more of a
grumbling person (somebody who is "stuur" (B)...also called a "dr??mmer" here
btw) and are indeed cognate with German "n??rgeln" ("to grump" (E)); whereas
an "??rk" is definitely evil, and has an utterly cruel, sadistic nature.
Please read the following definitions, from Lexer and Grimm respectively:

orke swm. b??ser d??mon, teufel. so sagt manger, er hab den orken und elben
gesechen VINTL. 7686. aus lat. orcus, it. orco, fz. ogre waldgeist. vgl.
MYTH. 291. 454. SCHM. Fr. 1,142. SCH??PF 482. ROCHHOLZ naturmythen 96 anm.

ORKE,ORK,ORG, m. gespenstisches wesen, b??ser d??mon, spukm??nnchen, teufel,
it. l'orco (von lat. Orcus, als gottheit gedacht, s. norke und oger sp. 899.
1198), cimbr. orko SCHM. 151b, bair. tirol. orke, org, deminutiv ??rkel
SCHM.2 1, 142. SCH??PF 482. ZINGERLE sagen 63. s. MANNHARDT baumkultus 73.
110. 333:

so sagt auch maniger ze teute,
er hab den orken und elben gesehen.
         VINTLER 7802.

This fits nicely the meaning of "??r(re)k" in my version of Brabantish, be it
for a human being. Surely the two nouns may have influenced each other at
some point in time. Especially in those places, where also the verb "h??rken"
(~ "hearken" (E), "horchen" (G)) was in use (like in Eastern North Brabant),
metanalysis may have urged speakers even more to reinterpret "den ork" as
"de(n) nork" (due to so called "fear of homonyms"). I know metanalysis can
work both ways (either adding or deleting _n_), but to my knowledge I know
of no example in my dialect where _n_ is deleted. I'm not stating that such
words do not exist, but there is a very strong tendency of adding  _n_,
e.g.:

"ast" > "nast" ("oast" (E))
"heef" > "n????f" ("sourdough" (E))
"oord" > "nood" ("farthing"(E))
"oncle" (F) > "noenkel" ("uncle" (E))
"echel" > "nechel" ("leech"(E))
"azen" > "n????zn" ("to bait" (E))...

Yet, with "??r(re)k", it's not done. We will say for example "??r(re)k m??rre
d? ? v???? za??n, v???? aa vraa zoe af te sl? ? ge".

Moreover, Kiliaan referred "norck" to "orck" (not the other way round) in
his Etymologicum Teutonicae linguae sive Dictionarium Teutonico - Latinum
(16th century), and also listed "orckachtigh" but not "norckachtigh". In
short, I don't think that "ork" has been derived from "nork" or vice versa,
but rather that they originally were (completely) different words.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Welcome to the List and to its "vocal" chapter, Haeng-Cho and John!  It's
great to have you here.

I wrote:

> Indo-Aryan words such as Sanskrit ??????????????? _r??yati_ '(he/she/it) barks'.

Haeng-Cho:

> the Sanskrit actually reads as rayita

Hmmm ...  It clearly reads _r??yati_ here (r(a)-??-ya-t(a)i).  (The -i
half-graph is written *before* the consonant it follows, while the long -i
half-graph is written behind.)  Maybe there's an encoding problem at your
end.  Nice to know, though, that there's someone else interested in this
fascinating language.

Liewe John,

> My Afrikaans is dus effens "boers", maar s?? praat ek,
> en 'n liewe, lekker ryk taal is dit  vir my ook.

Op Lowlands-L kan jy "praat" sonder bang te wees en sonder verskoning te
vra.  Alle Laaglandse taalsorte is by ons welkom en op prys gestel.

Luc regarding initial _n-_ added as a remnant of an infinitive article
(_een_, _eyn_, _'n_, etc.):

> "ast" > "nast" ("oast" (E))
> "heef" > "n????f" ("sourdough" (E))
> "oord" > "nood" ("farthing"(E))
> "oncle" (F) > "noenkel" ("uncle" (E))
> "echel" > "nechel" ("leech"(E))
> "azen" > "n????zn" ("to bait" (E))...

In North Saxon dialects of Lowlands Saxon (Low German) we have _naars_
(<Naars>, <Noors>, <Nors> etc.) and _maars_ (<Maars>, <Moors>, <Mors> etc.)
'arse' (American 'ass', as in 'backside'), based on _aars_, which is hardly
ever used now.  Perhaps the _maars_ variant comes from _an dem aars_ > _an
'em aars_ > _am aars_ 'on the ...', perhaps from the "colorful" invitation
_Lek/Lik my am aars!_ (<Leck/Lick mi am Aars!>, nowadays _... an'n ..._,
dative forms having disappeared).  It's an invitation in reverse, so to
speak.  I guess I can spare you the translation.

How's this for "boers," John?

Groete,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 20 14:38:43 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 07:38:43 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.20 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUL.2004.073843.0700.>

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From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.19 (07) [A/E/German]

>From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.19 (05) [E]
>
>This from http://www.etymonline.com/
>
>rare (adj.2) - "undercooked," 1655, variant of M.E. rere, from O.E. hrer
>"lightly cooked," probably related to hreran "to stir, move." Originally
>of eggs, not recorded in reference to meat until 1784, and according to
>O.E.D., in this sense "formerly often regarded as an Americanism,
>although it was current in many English dialects ...."
>
>uproar - 1526, used as a loan-translation of Ger. Aufruhr or Du. oproer
>in Ger. and Du. Bibles (cf. Acts xxi:38), "outbreak of disorder, revolt,
>commotion," from Ger. auf "up" + ruhr "a stirring, motion." Meaning
>"noisy shouting" is first recorded 1544, probably by mistaken
>association with roar. First record of uproarious is from 1819.
>
>David Barrow
>
>-------------
>
>From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.19 (05) [E]
>
>>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>>Subject: Etymology
>>
>>Thanks, Patrick or Cynthia (whichever of you sent this).
>>
>>>This seems semantically and phonetically to be a pretty good match to G.
>>>
>>ruehren.
>>
>>Indeed!  Note also German _Aufruhr_, Dutch and Afrikaans _oproer_ and
>>Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _uprour_ (<Uprohr>) ~ _oprour_ (<Oprohr>)
>>'uproar', 'revolt', 'rebellion'.  So it's a "stirring up."
>>
>>We might be dealing with coalescence in the case of English, the "roar" of
>>"uproar" alone being defunct ...
>
>What about the English verb "rear", meaning to raise or lift up (to rear
>children, to rear one's head) or, intransitively, to rise on the hind legs
>or to tower? The Amer. Heritage Dict. (2nd College ed.) traces it to OE
>"roeran", and it definitely carries the idea of motion.
>
r?ran  not roeran the ae ligature might look a bit like an oe ligature
as it does below when in italics

rear (v.) - O.E. r?ran"to raise, build up, set on end," from P.Gmc.
*raizijanau "to raise," causative of *risanan "to rise" (see raise).
Meaning "bring into being, bring up" (as a child) is recorded from
c.1420; that of "raise up on the hind legs" is first recorded 1375.

it is cognate with:

raise (v.) - c.1200, from O.N. reisa "to raise," from P.Gmc. *raizjan
(cf. Goth. ur-raisjan, O.E. r?ran "to rear," see rear (v.)), causative
of base *ris- "to rise" (see rise). At first sharing many senses with
native rear (v.). Used in most of the varied modern senses since M.E.;
some later evolutions include "to bring up" (a child), 1744; "to
elevate" (the consciousness), 1970. The noun is first recorded 1500 in
sense of "a levy;" meaning "increase in amount or value" is from 1728,
specific sense in poker is from 1821. Meaning "increase in salary or
wages" is from 1898, chiefly Amer.Eng. (British preferring rise).

the s (/z/) of rise/raise v the second 'r' of rear is due to rhotacism.
The same thing happened with 'was' and 'were'

There was once 'rear' /rE:r/ as variant spelling of rare above but not
to be confused with rear /rI:r/ just above.

David Barrow

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Etymology

Traces of this /r/~/z/ alternation can be found in the Low German group as
well; e.g., Lowlands Saxon _verleyren_ ~ _verleysen_ ~ _verlysen_
(<verleren> ~ <verlieren> ~ <verlesen> ~ <verliesen>) and Dutch _verliezen_
'to lose', and Lowlands Saxon _k?yren_ (<k?ren> ~ <k??rn> ~ <k?ren> ~
<k??rn>) vs Dutch _kiezen_ 'to choose', LS _k?yr_ (<k??r> ~ <k??r>) vs Dutch
_keuze_ 'choice' but _voorkeur_ 'preference' ("fore-choice").

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 20 16:13:33 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 09:13:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Oral tradition" 2004.07.20 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUL.2004.091333.0700.>

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From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Oral Tradition


It seems that the earliest known reference to 'Arthur's Peak' only dates
back to the 15th century. There are ,however, the remains of an ancient
hillfort on the slopes of Arthur's Peak (as there are also underneath
Edinburgh Castle) and these forts were most probably built by the Brythonic
tribe known to the Romans as the Votadini. The word Votadini is a Latinized
form of the word Goutodin or later Gododdin, the name of the people and
kingdom that extended from Stirling to the River Tyne.Their first capital
was at Taprain Law in East Lothian and was then transferred to Edinburgh.
Their exploits are recorded in the Old Welsh epic poem Y Gododdin by
Aneirin. In this poem, which may well have been written in Edinburgh, the
city is referred to as Eidin, the forerunner of the Gaelic Dun Eideann,
which the English later Saxonized to Edin-burgh 'the Burgh (fort) of Edin'.

Edinburgh is mentioned a number of times in the Gododdin, as in stanza
60:(Joseph Clancy's translation)

'Thus had the Gododdin wine and mead in Eidin, ruthless in strife, firm
ranks.'

The poem also contains perhaps the earliest reference to Arthur, and proves
that the people of Gododdin must have known of him: (stanza 98):

'He brought black crows to a fort's wall, though he was not Arthur.'
((Describing the exploits of a warrior).

 John Duckworth
Preston, UK

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 20 16:16:19 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 09:16:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.20 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUL.2004.091619.0700.>

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From: Lone Olesen <istranza at yahoo.dk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Hello all,

Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net> wrote:

> That is not the only insinuation of S. African
> 'schoolboy language' into
> Tolkien's books. Here is another, from the Hobbit,
> where Bilbo teases the
> spiders in Mirkwood to a frenzy by singing a song
> calling them 'attercop',
> Afrikaans 'etterkop' - (pus-head) . This word was
> identified to his
> correspondants by Tolkien as from Old English
> 'Aetercop' - (poison head);
> suitable for an adder or a spider, but sure'nuff in
> his childhood in
> Bloemfontein, the use of that word would have
> reduced the entire school
> playground to a shocked & echoing silence.

Incidentally, the Danish word for "spider" is
"edderkop", with no name-calling intended. The first
syllable "edder" also means poison and can be used for
swearing or for reinforcing a statement.
Unfortunately, I don't have my ethymological
dictionary at the moment, and looking it up on the web
I only got the children's song "itsy bitsy spider"
(Lille Peter Edderkop).
Rgds, Lone Olesen

----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.19 (02) [E]

Beste Ron,

Subject: Etymology

> I take "to roar" to belong to a different group of apparently
> onomatopoetically derived cognates: Old English _r?rian_, Middle Saxon
> _r?ren_ ~ _r?ren_ > Modern Saxon _raren_ ~ _reren_ (<rahren> ~ <rohren> ~
> <rehren>), Middle Dutch _reeren_, Old German _r?r?n_ > Middle German
_r?ren_
> > Modern German _r?hren_ (of male deer during the rut), apparently related
> to Slavic words like Russian ????? _rajat'_ 'to sound (loudly)' and
> Indo-Aryan words such as Sanskrit ????? _r?yati_ '(he/she/it) barks'.

You've got me there! This is what Chambers's Etymological Dictionary says;
"--- to cry as a beast --- [Anglo-Saxon 'r?rian', Old German 'reran', --- to
cry as a stag, to bellow; ---]." Here comes my face-saver, "[--- influenced
also by an old verb 'hroren', the German r?hren, to move ---."

Groete,
Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 20 16:41:54 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 09:41:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.20 (04) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUL.2004.094154.0700.>

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From: rick denkers <d.denkers at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.19 (06) [E]

Moye Hugo,

> When I was young, in Winschoten, Groningen (the Oldambt area and therefore
> close to the German border) during the 1940s, a group of us would go out
at
> one night during November. We'd have candle lighted lanterns. Paper ones
> that folded like a concertina so that you could tend to the candle. Then
we
> would sing "Kip Kap Kogel ..." after we knocked on a door or rung the bell
> and someone opened up.
>
> We'd always be given something. I only remember sweets but there could
have
> been other things. We would also sing a thank you and then go on our way
to
> the next house. When we'd have had enough we usually divided the spoils
> amongst a group of from 5 to 10 children. I still can't see paper lanterns
> without having nostalgic and quite specific memories.
>
T zal du nijt verbaozn dat die St maarten nog zeer wiet gefiert wurt int
Grun' en dreentse land !
Mien kinder goan ieder jaor nog langs de deurre om Sint Martinus te fiern .
Grout'n
Rick
_________________________
Denn die einen sind im Dunkeln
Und die andern sind im Licht.
Und man siehet die im Lichte
Die im Dunkeln sieht man nicht.

"Dreigroschenoper., B. Brecht
--------------------------------------

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Literature

Folks,

I am interested in code switching in verse, and I wonder if you can think of
such instances involving Lowlands language varieties.

As far as I can tell, this phenomenon ranges between the following two
types:

(1) Macaronic devices (in which language switches occur seemingly randomly)
(2) Devices highlighting social or ethnic differences

Are there any other types?

Below I will provide one example for each of the above-mentioned types: a
Welsh song that switches between English and Welsh in a macaronic fashion,
and a Lowlands Saxon (Low German) song that uses genteel 19th-century German
to highlight a person's perceptively higher social standing or ambitions, or
rather his social airs, thus contrasting two milieus and showing off a son's
alienation from his roots.

I do not know who the authors are.

Regards and thanks.

Reinhard/Ron

***

   C??N MERTHYR
   [Song of Merthyr, Wales]

   Ye lads all thro' the country,
   Gwrandewch ar hyn o stori! [1]
   You better go dros ben y graig, [2]
   Than go with gwraig i'r gwely. [3]

   My wife did send me waerad [4]
   Down to the river Deifad:
   I told her I wouldn't go???
   She knock me with the lletwad. [5]

   My wife did send me i weithio [6]
   Without a bit of bacco; [7]
   She got plenty in the house???
   Ni chawn i ounce ohono. [8]

   My wife did go to dinner,
   Cig moch a phalfais wether; [9]
   She eat the cig, [10] give me the cawl??? [11]
   A dyna'i chi ddiawl o bardner. [12]

   O! O! O!


Welsh items:
   [1] Listen to this story!
   [2] over the top of the cliff
   [3] the wife to bed
   [4] away
   [5] soup ladle
   [6] to work
   [7] tobacco
   [8] I wasn't allowed an ounce of it.
   [9] bacon and shoulder of lamb
   [10] meat
   [11] soup, broth
   [12] Now there's a devil of a partner.

***


   DEI GROFFSMIDT
   (Mecklenburg)

   Ein Groffsmidt set in goder Rauh
   un sm????k sien Piep Toback dortau.

   ??Wat kloppt denn dor an miene D??r,
   as wenn 't dei D??bel s??lben weer?

   All wedder 'n Breif von dei Hallsche Post,
   dei mi so manchen Daler kost't.

   Wat schrifft denn dor mien leiwe Fritz,
   dei up dei hohge Schaul r??mflitzt???

   ??Du sast mal fix nah Halle kamen,
   dien S??hn will sick dat L??ben nahmen!??

   Un as dei Oll nah Halle kem,
   donn dr??nk hei ierst 'n groten K??m.

   ??Wo wahnt denn hier mien leiwe Fritz,
   dei up dei hohge Schaul r??mflitzt???

   ??Dien S??hn, dei wahnt in'n 'Gollen Stiern',
   hei hett dei l??tten Dierns so giern.??

      ??Guten Tag, guten Tag, mein Herr Papa!
      Wie geht 's zu Haus der Frau Mama?
      Wie geht es meinem Schwesterlein?
      Wie mag 's mit meinem Wechsel sein???

   ??Von dissen Wessel holl dat Muul,
   s??ss slah ick di dat Ledder vull!??

      ??Was hab ich Euch zu Leid getan?
      So f??hrt man keinen Burschen an!
      Den ganzen Tag hab ich studiert
      und abends auch noch kommersiert!??

   ??Dat R??mpossieren, dat s??sst man laten,
   s??sst leiwer up den Ambo?? slahn.??

      ??Viel eher, da?? ich Grobschmied werd,
      werd ich Soldate hoch zu Pferd.
      Und gebt Ihr mir nicht gleich das Geld,
      so seht Ihr Euren Sohn als Held.??

   ??F??r dit Mal sall 't verg??ben sien,
   du Hawerlump, du R??benswien.

   Gott segne deine Studia,
   ut di ward nicks, hallelujah!??

===
My transliteration:

   DEY GROVSMID
   (Mecklenburg)

   Eyn grovsmid seet in goder rou
   un sm??yk syn pyp tobak daar tou.

   ??Wat klopt den daar an myne d????r,
   as wen 't dey d??yvel s??lven weer?

   Al wedder 'n breyv von dey Hallsche Post,
   dey my so manchen daler kostt.

   Wat schrivt den daar myn leyve Fritz,
   dey up dey hoge schoul r??m-vlitst???

   ??Du sast maal viks na Halle kamen.
   Dyn s????n wil sik dat leven namen!??

   Un as dey old' na Halle keem,
   don dr??nk hey eyrst 'n groten k????m.

   ??Waar waant den hyr myn leyve Fritz,
   dey up dey hoge schoul r??m-vlitst???

   ??Dyn s????n, dey waant in d'n 'Golden Steyrn'.
   Hey het dey l??tten deyrns so geyrn.??

      ??Guten Tag, guten Tag, mein Herr Papa!
      Wie geht's zu Haus der Frau Mama?
      Wie geht es meinem Schwesterlein?
      Wie mag's mit meinem Wechsel sein???

   ??Von dissen wessel hold dat muul,
   s??s sla ick dy dat ledder vul!??

      ??Was hab ich Euch zu Leid getan?
      So f??hrt man keinen Burschen an!
      Den ganzen Tag hab ich studiert
      und abends auch noch kommersiert!??

   ??Dat r??m-posseyren, dat s??st man laten,
   s??st leyver up d'n amboss slaan.??

      ??Viel eher, da?? ich Grobschmied werd,
      werd ich Soldate hoch zu Pferd.
      Und gebt Ihr mir nicht gleich das Geld,
      so seht Ihr Euren Sohn als Held.??

   ??V??r dit maal sal 't vergeven syn,
   du haver-lump, du r??ven-swyn.

   Gott segne deine Studia!
   Uut dy wardt niks. Hallelujah!??

===
My translation ([LS] = Lowlands Saxon, [G] = German):

   THE BLACKSMITH
   (Mecklenburg)

   [LS] A blacksmith sat in peace and quiet
   And smoked a pipe of tobacco.

   "Who's that knocking on the door
   As if it were the devil himself?"

   Again a letter by mail coach from Halle
   That costs me many a pretty dollar.

   What's he writing there, my dear son Fritz,
   Who's running around at the university up there?"

   "You'd better come to Halle, quick.
   Your son's about to commit suicide!"

   And when the old man got to Halle
   He first had a large stiff drink

   "Where around here does he stay, my Fritz,
   Who's running around at the university up here?"

   "Your son's staying at the Golden Star.
   He's pretty darn fond of the girls, I'd say."

      [G] "Good day, good day, sir, dear Papa!
      How is Madam Mama faring back home?
      How might my dearest sister be?
      How might things stand ?  propos my bill?"

   [LS] "You'd better not mention a bill of exchange,
   Or else I'll give you a good hiding!"

      [G] "What have I done to you, good sir?
      Is this a way to talk to a lad?
      I have been studying all day,
      Was sociable at night as well."

   [LS] "You'd better be done with your courting, I say,
   Had better be making that anvil sing."

      [G] "Much rather than becoming a blacksmith, sir,
      I'd become a soldier high on a horse.
      And if you don't give me my money right now
      You'll see your son end up as a hero."

   [LS] "Now, now! You'll be forgiven this once,
   You rascal, you ... you scalawag!

   [G] May God bless all your _studia_,
   [LS] You good-for-naught! Hallelujah!"

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 20 17:57:16 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:57:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Oral tradition" 2004.07.20 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUL.2004.105716.0700.>

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Oral tradition" 2004.07.19 (04) [E]

Dear Sandy Fleming

Subject: "In the media"

> I'm not really up to date on the theories of Arthur, but I've often
wondered
> why  Arthurs Seat (a large promontory of volcanic rock within the city of
> Edinburgh) is so called.

> Also, why is there such a strong tradition of Merlin in Berwickshire in
the
> Scottish Borders? They have "Merlin's Cave", for example, and a local
> tradition that particularly associates Merlin with the river Tweed.

> And why do archeologists still keep digging in Wales for evidence of
Arthur
> when they never manage to find anything? The idea that Avalon or Camelot
was
> at Glastonbury in Somerset is an obvious linguistic gaffe - Arthur was
said
> to have built a city of glass, but the "glas" in Glastonbury refers to the
> woad that used to be grown there (cf Welsh "glas" - "blue/grey/green").

> I was wondering if perhaps, like the works of other Welsh poets, stories
of
> Arthur were taken to Wales by refugees from the Lothians when the
Brythonic
> kingdom there fell to the Northumbrians? Does the name "Arthurs Seat" go
> back a long way?

I'm with you there. The late Prof. Abercrombie of St Andrews told me that
the 'Inglis' speaking parts of Scotland were once Welsh-speaking, & the
language receded to English less by conquest (of course there was a complete
turnover in aristocracy, as in the Norman conquest of England) than by
cultural drift (which continues to this day). Since it wasn't by invasion or
population displacement, the Brythonic names & tales stayed with the
locations identified in the 'Folk Record'.
But he said that the Arthurian Tradition was entrenched in all Brythonic
communities before Anglo-Saxon hegemony, which accounts for the breadth &
consistency of the tradition among groups so thoroughly isolated, in the
Lothians, Whales, Cornwall & Devon, & (a special case - they were once
Island British) Brittany.
The Arthurian Tradition was once very strong, embracing the whole Island. I
wonder what he did to get Gildas so cut up that he cut him out of British
History?
The writings of Geraldus Cambriensis makes it plain that it was not so
'dark' in the 'Dark Ages' of your Island. Records of the time were made at
the time, & kept, & they survive. But there is a real & measurable gap in
British history covering exactly the Arthurian period, & the manifest
disparity between the rich folk record & the bare scholastic record shows it
was deliberate, on the part of the official record keepers. I hope those
clerics are proud of what they did!

I reckon archaeological research of the Arthurian period should cover the
whole Island, & auger in on folk traditions, not the 'historical record'
(which is "cooked"). Before the balkanisation of Britain under the Angles,
Saxons (my ears prick up here!) & Jutes (or were they Geats?) the Island had
a unitary Roman administration, infrastructure, military, road system & even
national consciousness (which is remembered in the Lay of Mancsen Wledig).
To my mind, the Count of Britain may well have held court in Glastonbury &
sat on Arthur's Seat. If Harold of England could fight battles at Stamford
bridge & at Sandlac in such a short space of time just think what a few
cavalry brigades could do along Roman roads!

Yrs sincerely,
Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 20 17:58:45 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:58:45 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.20 (06) [A/E]
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUL.2004.105845.0700.>

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.19 (07) [A/E/German]

Dear Reinhard & John,

Of course the LARP fraternity post-dated, by just a bit, the explosion of
popularity of Tolkien in the USA.
Those who played D&D, & designed that & similar games, knew the books well,
& found in them ready inspiration for their own inventions, not to mention
rich ores for their delving! Tolkien is recorded having said, "These young
people are involved in my tales in a way that I am not!"

> About "orc",

> I'd say large numbers of Americans under the age of about 45 are quite
familiar with the word, even if they
> don't know where it comes from.

John; geluk en aangename kennis!

> Mark het ges?, ten opsigte van "orc":

> > Well, in Afrikaans schoolboy slang, to call someone an 'urk' - [@rk] is
to
> > denounce him as a graceless monstrosity.

> > Bilbo teases the spiders in Mirkwood to a frenzy by singing a song
calling them
> > 'attercop', Afrikaans 'etterkop' - (pus-head).

> Daar staan Mark se etterkop, vris en sterk.  Mar ek moet s? dat,
kontekstu?el  gesproke, dit vir my onredelik > is dat 'n vier-jarige knapie
van 'n koloniale Engelse familie "etterkop" kon geleer het. Sulke
"rooinekke" sou  > nooit Afrikaans geleer het nie, veral in 1896 nie.
Nederlands, miskien ja, ?f in die Vrystaat ?f die Transvaal,  > waar
Nederlands die amptelike taal was.

Ek stem nie saam nie. Ek onthou hoe ek op daardie ouderdom deur die
volwassenes uitgelag is oor vuil taal wat ek van 'n ietwat ouer maatjie
geleer, en in hulle geselskap gebruik het (die gelag het harder getug as
enige streepsuiker, ek s? jou!).
Nog wat: Anthony Trollope, die roman skrywer (Barsetshire Chronicles), het
Suider Afrika deur getoer, net 'n bietjie voor daai tyd, en daaroor boek
geskryf. Onder andere het hy Bloemfontein in die Vrystaat besoek, en daar,
soos ons lees het die bittere gees wat in die Transvaal reeds ontstaan nog
nie ontwyk nie. Boer en Brit het mooi oor die weg gekom, beide sosiaal en
professioneel.
Die hart van die huishoud in die jare is die kombuis gewees, veral vir die
kinders, tussen die bediendes, en in daardie jare is Afrikaans maar 'n
kombuis-taal, n?? Hollands, in teendeel, veral in 'n Engelssprekende gesin,
sou net nie voorgekom het nie. Ja, selfs in Afrikaner geledere is dit net in
skool, en dit net in klas, geleer.
Om 'n voorbeeld van die blootstelling wat 'n Engelssprekende kind van
daardie jare aan Afrikaans geniet het, lees maar gerus 'The Diary of Iris
Vaughan' - al te prettig!
Skryf maar nog, John!

Die Uwe,
Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 20 18:09:11 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:09:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.20 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUL.2004.110911.0700.>

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From: Szelog, Mike <Mike.Szelog at citizensbank.com>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.20 (04) [E/LS]

Hello all,

I've also heard a version of Dei Groffsmidt, can't recall who sung it, but
it's also about Fritz and his extracurricular activities at university.

In the version I've heard, it's Kiel (Dat is een Brief van de Kieler Post,
dey twee un twinning Penning kost, etc. - sorry for the spelling,I'm going
by memory).

But he at first addresses his father in very High German, and then at the
end is begging his father to let him stay at the university, but in perfect
Lowlands rather than formal High German!

The only other example I can think of is also a Welsh folk song, but only
parts of it switch languages. The verses are sung in Welsh, but the
chorus/refrain goes:

"Happy are we now all my boys, happy are we now all;
Gobeithio gawn ni etto gordd yng nglwad yn Cymru'n oll" (I think something
like, "here's hoping we'll all meet in old Wales")

Again, sorry for the Welsh spelling; I'm going by memory!

Only other ones I've heard are Romany, but because I'm not all that familiar
with the languages used (Romany and Hungarian), I'm not entirely sure there
were two languages used in the same songs.

Mike S
Manchester, NH - USA

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Literature

Thanks, Mike.

I think you are talking about the Holstein dialect version Hannes Wader
performs.  In it the son adds that two friends of his had quarreled and made
him the referee for their fight (assumedly one of those old-fashioned
university student duels).  I have a feeling that this is a later,
"jazzed-up" version, but I may be wrong there.  I will try to find the words
of that version.

Thanks again!

Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 20 23:06:13 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:06:13 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.20 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUL.2004.160613.0700.>

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From: Szelog, Mike <Mike.Szelog at citizensbank.com>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.20 (07) [E]

Hello all,

Ron Wrote:

"I think you are talking about the Holstein dialect version Hannes Wader
performs."

I think that's it!! I "had" both the tape and words to the song, but
unfortunately now have no idea where they are! The name sounds very
familiar, and after seeing the other versions you posted, I believe it is
indeed a "jazzed up" version of a popular folk tune. On the tape, I believe
it's him with a guitar on this song, but on others there are fiddle ,
harmonica, spoons and auto-harp. With some of the tunes and the instruments
used, along with the style of playing, you can see where some of American
"Country & Western" got its roots!

Mike S.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 20 23:20:48 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:20:48 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Oral tradition" 2004.07.20 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.20.JUL.2004.162048.0700.>

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From: Andrys Onsman <Andrys.Onsman at CeLTS.monash.edu.au>
Subject: LL-L "Oral tradition" 2004.07.19 (04) [E]

From: Andrys Onsman
Subject: Oral Tradition
To: Sandy et al

>And why do archeologists still keep digging in Wales for evidence of Arthur
>when they never manage to find anything?
>
I'm not sure that such is the case. In /The Keys to Avalon: the true
location of Arthur?s Kingdom revealed /(Blake, S & Lloyd, S;
Shaftesbury: Element, 2000) the thesis that the stories of Arthur and
Camelot are localised in northern Wales is posited. Although I wasn't
entirely convinced by their argument, and some of the detail became
somewhat trivial, it's an interesting theory, with numerous lowland
language area precedents. Well worth a read, if you're interested in
such things - but nowhere near as spectacular as the movie!

Guid will,
Andrys Onsman

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 21 20:03:25 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:03:25 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Oral tradition" 2004.07.21 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.130325.0700.>

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: "Oral tradition" [E]

> From: Andrys Onsman <Andrys.Onsman at CeLTS.monash.edu.au>
> Subject: LL-L "Oral tradition" 2004.07.19 (04) [E]
>
> From: Andrys Onsman
> Subject: Oral Tradition
> To: Sandy et al
>
> >And why do archeologists still keep digging in Wales for evidence of
Arthur
> >when they never manage to find anything?
> >
> I'm not sure that such is the case. In /The Keys to Avalon: the true
> location of Arthurs Kingdom revealed /(Blake, S & Lloyd, S;
> Shaftesbury: Element, 2000) the thesis that the stories of Arthur and
> Camelot are localised in northern Wales is posited. Although I wasn't
> entirely convinced by their argument, and some of the detail became
> somewhat trivial, it's an interesting theory, with numerous lowland
> language area precedents. Well worth a read, if you're interested in
> such things - but nowhere near as spectacular as the movie!

That sounds interesting, although I'm extremely sceptical about the value of
trying to reconstruct lost history without very solid evidence (as opposed
to, say, toponymic or etymological evidence).

Although aware of some of the pitfalls, I'm inclined to give more (though
not necessarily much) credence to oral tradition. An example of why is the
tradition of Old King Cole. While the Scottish oral tradition of King Cole
is quite strong  (as, for example, when Scottish poets refer to Scotland as
"Coila"), in England there is a Colchester so everybody believes he was
based there, without a shred of evidence. In fact Burns believes King Cole
to be associated with Kyle in Scotland, and refers to Kyle thusly (in "The
Two Dogs"):

'Twas in that place o' Scotland's Isle,
That bears the name o' auld King Coil,

You'll note that Burns Rhymes "Coil" with "Isle" just as in modern Scots
"voice", "boil", "choice" &c is pronounced "vyce", "byle", "chyce" &c. He
means "Kyle".

On the whole, though, I think this sort of thing - oral tradition - should
be taken much more seriously than simply matching "Cole" with "Colchester",
or "glass" with "Glastonbury". Yet there seem to be many books putting
forward theories that are based on little more than a few approximate
pattern matches.

Another pitfall with lost history is that the legends tend to build - people
spot connections that really don't exist, and like the canals of Mars an
Arthurian landscape is built right across the island. But just because
legends of Arthur are everywhere doesn't mean Arthur was everywhere. The
idea that the literature of Arthur moved from Ediinburgh to Wales at least
involves a route over which refugees are known to have taken other works of
Brythonic literature. This might spread "Arthurmania" over a wide area and
the connections would begin to be built. And of course the notoriously
self-publicising monks of Glastonbury Abbey made more of it than most!

The association of Camelot (though not Cole!) with Colchester is very
striking, though.

It's also true that the Welsh tended to write up stories from other areas as
if they had actually happened in Wales. For example, the traditional Welsh
story "The Drowning of the Bottom Hundred", tells how a series of sea-dykes
stretching along the west coast of Wales were left in such neglect that the
sea broke in and submerged the town of Aberdovy, so that sometimes the
famous "Bells of Aberdovy" can be heard ringing below the sea, obviously
couldn't have happened in Wales. In fact it relates actual incidents that
occurred on the Dutch coastline.

All this talk of Arthur still leaves me wondering why there's such a strong
tradition of Merlin in Berwickshire, though. It might be worth considering
how the other two wizards I mentioned - Michael Scot and John Napier - fared
in oral tradition. It might not actually cast light on Merlin, but could
give us an idea how large a pinch of salt we need with oral tradition.

John Napier (pronounced "Naper" /ne:p at r/ in Scots) owned Merchiston Castle
just outside Edinburgh. His household (you know, the servants and suchlike)
observed him day after day and night after night moving tablets with arcane
markings on them over a mysterious board, also covered in arcane markings.
He kept a black cockerel as a familiar, which everyone feared because
anything it saw, John Napier would also see. Criminals had been arrested and
found guilty simply because the master wizard had caught them red-handed via
the cockerel. Later in his life, wizards from the furthest reaches of the
island would visit Napier, not to work with him or learn from him, but just
for the honour of meeting him and paying reverence to him for his powerful
works.

Michael Scot was a wizard from the Scottish Border country, born aound 1180.
He was of fairy parentage and is mentioned in many supernatural tales, where
he duels with witches and even defeats the Pope. He and the Devil built
Watling Street in England in a single night, and it was he or one of his
familiars who split Eildon Law in three (Eildon Law is a dramatic
triple-peaked mountain near Melrose in the Scottish Borders). Like Merlin,
Michael Scot never died, his whereabouts are simply unknown.

John Napier is of course recent history. When a theft was committed in the
castle, he covered a black cockerel in soot and led the servants one at a
time into a dark room where the were instructed to stroke the cockerel,
which would cry out when touched by a thief. The thief was caught because he
hadn't dared touch it and his hands were still clean (this also happens in
an episode of M*A*S*H but Napier seems to have done it for real!). Napier
spent much of his time slidign counters over a board as he attempted to
devise effiecient methods of calculation. He eventually devised a system of
calculation by logarithms that was so successful it extended the working
life of astronomers ten or twentyfold and they would come up to Scotland
from Cambridge just to meet him and pay their respects.

Michael Scot studied in Paris and was tutor to Frederick II who later became
emperor.  Michael distinguished himself as an alchemist in Spain. On visits
to Spain he read many of the great Arabic works and a treatise on algebra is
credited to him. I suppose it's possible that the Scottish Lowlanders were
simply overawed by his learning and the strange sort of books he wrote and
read. Such wonders as Eildon Law and Watling Street (actually a Roman road)
were attributed to him, although the Roman name "Trimontanum" for the Eildon
area seems to give the game away to us moderns! I've read varying accounts
of his death - either he died in obscurity amongst the ordinary folk of the
Scottish Borders, or he met with some mischance on one of his trips to
Spain.

Even so, I think that with oral tradition there's usually a real person
behind it no matter how warped the truth becomes, and I think that oral
tradition might be a better guide to the location of an obscure historical
character, when you consider that oral tradition tends to stay put (unless
there's a mass migration) whereas once something's written down it might end
up anywhere. Oral tradition can be seriously warped, but perhaps it's sheer
incredibility makes it less misleading than the doctoring of written texts
with its synthetic credibility, or modern scholars on a treasure hunt for
similar names and suchlike.

Anyway, it all leads me to wonder if there really isn't something _behind_
the oral tradition of Merlin in Berwickshire. But perhaps we just sometimes
have to accept that lost history really is lost.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 21 20:51:44 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:51:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.21 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.135144.0700.>

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From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.20 (01) [E]

From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.19 (07) [A/E/German]

From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.19 (05) [E]

This from http://www.etymonline.com/

rare (adj.2) - "undercooked," 1655, variant of M.E. rere, from O.E. hrer
"lightly cooked," probably related to hreran "to stir, move." Originally
of eggs, not recorded in reference to meat until 1784, and according to
O.E.D., in this sense "formerly often regarded as an Americanism,
although it was current in many English dialects ...."

uproar - 1526, used as a loan-translation of Ger. Aufruhr or Du. oproer
in Ger. and Du. Bibles (cf. Acts xxi:38), "outbreak of disorder, revolt,
commotion," from Ger. auf "up" + ruhr "a stirring, motion." Meaning
"noisy shouting" is first recorded 1544, probably by mistaken
association with roar. First record of uproarious is from 1819.

David Barrow

-------------

From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.19 (05) [E]

    From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, Patrick or Cynthia (whichever of you sent this).

      This seems semantically and phonetically to be a pretty good match to
G.

        ruehren.

Indeed!  Note also German _Aufruhr_, Dutch and Afrikaans _oproer_ and
Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _uprour_ (<Uprohr>) ~ _oprour_ (<Oprohr>)
'uproar', 'revolt', 'rebellion'.  So it's a "stirring up."

We might be dealing with coalescence in the case of English, the "roar" of
"uproar" alone being defunct ...
      What about the English verb "rear", meaning to raise or lift up (to
rear
children, to rear one's head) or, intransitively, to rise on the hind legs
or to tower? The Amer. Heritage Dict. (2nd College ed.) traces it to OE
"roeran", and it definitely carries the idea of motion.

    r?ran  not roeran the ae ligature might look a bit like an oe ligature
as it does below when in italics
  r?ran below was supposed to appear in italics like this r?ran. The
formatting was lost because my email was set to text only.

David Barrow

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Etymology

David, Lowlanders,

The list server processes in plain text mode only.  This means it strips
messages of all formatting, not only HTML formatting but also text style
fomatting (including colors).  This is why we use symbols instead, such as
_italics_ and *bold*.

Also, the server ignores most type of indent used to mark quotes text, which
is why we prefer other types of marking (as in Troy's posting below) and why
we indent text manually if indenting is important.

Regards,
Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
Founder & Administrator, Lowlands-L
lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
http://www.lowlands-l.net

----------

From: Troy Sagrillo <meshwesh at bigfoot.com>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.20 (03) [E]

Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net> wrote:

> That is not the only insinuation of S. African 'schoolboy language' into
> Tolkien's books. Here is another, from the Hobbit, where Bilbo teases the
> spiders in Mirkwood to a frenzy by singing a song calling them 'attercop',
> Afrikaans 'etterkop' - (pus-head) . This word was identified to his
> correspondants by Tolkien as from Old English 'Aetercop' - (poison head);
> suitable for an adder or a spider, but sure'nuff in his childhood in
> Bloemfontein, the use of that word would have reduced the entire school
> playground to a shocked & echoing silence.

That may be the case, but it does remain that "at(t)orcoppe" 'spider' does
occur in Old English. "at(t)or" = poison, venom" (realised as "adder", in
modern English); "coppe" = "head". I would tend to trust Tolkein on this
one.

Cheers,

Troy

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 21 21:20:06 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:20:06 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.21 (03) [A/E]
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.142006.0700.>

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From: John Baskind <jbaskind at mac.com>
Subject: Etymology

Beste, Ron en Mark:

Dankie virrie oophartige groete!

On Jul 19, 2004, at 10:23 PM, Lowlands-L wrote:

> In North Saxon dialects of Lowlands Saxon (Low German) we have _naars_
> (<Naars>, <Noors>, <Nors> etc.) and _maars_ (<Maars>, <Moors>, <Mors>
> etc.)
> 'arse' (American 'ass', as in 'backside'), based on _aars_, which is
> hardly
> ever used now.  Perhaps the _maars_ variant comes from _an dem aars_ >
> _an
> 'em aars_ > _am aars_ 'on the ...', perhaps from the "colorful"
> invitation
> _Lek/Lik my am aars!_ (<Leck/Lick mi am Aars!>, nowadays _... an'n
> ..._,
> dative forms having disappeared).  It's an invitation in reverse, so to
> speak.  I guess I can spare you the translation.
>
> How's this for "boers," John?
>
> Groete,
> Reinhard/Ron

Ja-nee!  Dis maar lekker boers!

(This is off-topic, being a semantic rather than an etymological query,
but I beg indulgence:)

I have chewed over this quintessentially Afrikaans expression (ja-nee)
for years, but have always been frustrated in my quest for information
on it's origins. I hope that someone here might be able to shed some
light.

Ja-nee is difficult to translate accurately, as it carries a wide range
of meaning, depending on the inflection and which of the two words is
emphasized. In the case above it provides  delighted
acceptance/agreement with a salient point; but it can also carry the
meaning of a considered acceptance of present realities, as in the case
below,  a wonderful series of advertisements from South Africa's
erstwhile governing Party which appeared in the Afrikaans Press during
the run-up to the epochal 1994 elections:

Ad 1, Full Page:

Ja

Ad 2, Full Page:

Nee

Ad 3, full page

Ja-Nee

Ad 4, full page

Ag, Ja.

Which begs the question of whether Afrikaans has (I"m not a linguist, I
just love language) been influenced by the tonal African languages it
has grown up with to develop, _beyond_ its European cousins.
those of  an entire substrate of tonal inflections

Groete, en nogmaals dank,
John

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Idiomatica

John, Lowlanders,

In Northern Germany this _ja-nee_ (literally "yes-no") is also very popular,
though it's popularity seems to be dwindling with the acceleration of
Germanization.  (People there don't seem to be as aware of this as I am,
because there are several years between my visits form overseas.)

I am pretty sure that this _ja-nee_ originated from Lowlands Saxon (Low
German), the earlier language of the land.  In this language I pronounce it
something like [dZQ:'nE.I] (approximately "j?h-ney" in English spelling, the
the "?h" as in "posh" Southern England English "father" or long Swedish
"a").  In "broadest" Missingsch (i.e., German on LS substrate) it's
pronounced the same, in "tamed" Missings or "broad" Northern German
[jQ:'ne:] ("y?h-neh"), and in more "sophisticated" Hamburg German [ja:'ne:].
I *have* heard the German(ized?) version _ja-nein_, but I am not sure if it
has the same semantic range.

As you said, this can convey all sorts of things, from being a filler to
mild disagreement, may even express surprise.  It seems semantically really
complex to me.  Much depends on context and intonation.  I could see someone
writing a voluminous dissertation about it.

I wonder if this is a general Continental Lowlands expression, if it is a
Saxonism in Afrikaans, or if it sprang up independently in the two
languages.  I suppose what we need to find out is if our friends in the
Netherlands and Belgium are familiar with it too.  Might our British friends
know of a thing like this in English and/or Scots (*_aye-na_?) dialects
even?

Thanks for bringing this up, John.

En, ja-nee, ek stem met Mark overeen: dis baie lekker om jy op hierdie lys
te h?!  Ons het meer Afrikaanse stemme nodig.

Groete,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 21 22:42:36 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:42:36 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.21 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.154236.0700.>

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.20 (08) [E]

Mike wrote about the Hannes Wader album:

> harmonica, spoons and auto-harp. With some of the tunes and the
instruments
> used, along with the style of playing, you can see where some of American
> "Country & Western" got its roots!

I'm very familiar with this album (it's been one of my favourites for 25
years, and I've even sung most of the songs at jam sessions in Oregon and
elsewhere). Actually, some of them are poems by Klaus Groth, set to Scottish
and Irish folk tunes. For example, "De Moel" uses the tune of "Kelly, the
boy from Killarne" and "Hartleed" is sung to the tune of "The Four Marys"
("Last night, there were four Marys, this night there's only three: there
was Mary Beaton, and Mary Seaton, and Mary Carmicheal, and me...").

As soon as I find the time, I can copy the text for "De Groffschmitt" from
the album cover, but it may take me a few days - I'm totally swamped with
work at the moment. Also, any other song from the album that you might like.
By the way, when the bombs started falling on Baghdad, I posted the text of
another song from the album - "De jonge Wetfru" (The young widow), as some
of you might remember. It's one of those songs that always give me the
shivers.

My medieval music group sometimes gets together for weekend-long jam
sessions with a bunch of traditional Irish musicians from Dublin. Those
guys, mostly in their fifties and sixties, really liked the traditional "Dat
du min Leefsten b?st". They told me that "that's what they had always
imagined a German song must sound like".

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Literature

Thanks, Gabriele.

Folks, those of you who are interested can find some of Klaus Groth's songs
with translation and sound files at my Groth site:
http://www.geocities.com/grothwarken/

This includes the following songs Gabriele mentioned above:

De Moel [The Mill] (http://www.geocities.com/grothwarken/moel.htm)
    with a snippet of Wader's rendition

De junge Wetfru [The Young Widow]
(http://www.geocities.com/grothwarken/wetfru.htm)
    with a Midi file of the traditional tune and a snippet of Wader's
rendition

Hartleed [Sorrow] (http://www.geocities.com/grothwarken/hartleed.htm)
    with a Midi file of the traditional tune and a snippet of Wader's
rendition

I've long wanted to revamp and expand this site.  This includes adding
transliterations in ANS script.  Suggestions would be welcome.

The (somewhat naughty) love song _Dat du min Leevsten b?st_ [That You're my
Sweetheart Dear]  is not a work of Klaus Groth's.

You can find sound snippets of it here:
http://www.windmoel.de/mp3/dat_du_min.mp3
http://www.grainger.de/music/cd/mp3/mp3xx00002_04.mp3
Midi: http://www.grainger.de/music/platt.html

There are numerous versions of the words of this song.  Most of them seem
linguistically somewhat suspect (i.e., have German interference), such as
_kumm!_ instead of _kaam!_ 'come!', _kammer_ instead of _kamer_ 'chamber',
and _wee(t)st_ '(thou) knowest' rhyming with _hee(t)st_ '(thou) art named'
which should be _hey(t)st_.


   DAT DU MIEN LEEVSTEN B?ST

   Dat du mien Leevsten b?st, dat du woll wee?t.
   Kumm bi de Nacht, kumm bi de Nacht! Segg wo du hee?t!

   Kumm du um Mitternacht! Kumm du Klock een!
   Vader sl?ppt, Moder sl?ppt, ick slap alleen.

   Klopp an de Kammerd?r! Fat an de Klink!
   Vader sl?ppt, Moder meent, dat deit de Wind.

Two additional (later?) verses:

   Kummt denn de Morgenstund', kreiht de ol Hahn,
   Leevsten mien, Leevsten mien, denn m??t du gahn.

   Sachen den Gang henlank, lies mit de Klink,
   Vader sl?ppt, Moder meent, dat deit de Wind.

***

ANS transliteration:

   DAT DU MYN LEYVSTEN B?ST

   Dat du myn leyvsten b?st, dat du wol weest.
   Kum by dey nacht, kum by dey nacht! Seg, wou du heest!

   Kum du um middernacht! Kum du klok eyn!
   Vader sl?pt, Mouder sl?pt, ik slaap alleyn.

   Klop an dey kammerd??r! Vaat an dey klink!
   Vader sl?pt, Mouder meynt, dat dayt dey wind.

Two additional (later?) verses:

   Kumt den dey morgenstund, krayt dey old haan.
   Leyvsten myn, leyvsten myn, den m?st du gaan.

   Sachen den gang henlang, lys' mit dey klink,
   Vader sl?pt, Mouder meynt, dat dayt dey wind.

***

Phonetic (simplified SAMPA http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/home.htm):

   dat du mi:n 'le.Ifstn bYst dat du vO.l we:st
   kU.m bi deI naxt kU.m bi deI naxt zEC vo.U du he:st

   kU.m du U.m 'mId3`naxt kU.m du klOk e.In
   'fQ:d3` sl9pt mo.Uder sl9pt Ik slQ:p a'le.In

   klOp a.n deI 'kamerd9:3` fQ:t a.n deI klI.Nk
   'fQ:d3` sl9pt mo.Uder me.Int dat da.It deI vI.nt

Two additional (later?) verses:

   kU.mt dE.n deI 'mo3`gNstU.nt kra.It deI o.l hQ:n
   'le.Ifstn mi:n le.Ifstn mi:n dE.n mYst du gQ:n

   'zaxN dEn ga.NK he.nla.Nk li:.z mIt deI klI.Nk
   'fQ:d3` sl9pt mo.Uder me.Int dat da.It deI vI.nt

***

My translation:

   THAT YOU'RE MY SWEETHEART DEAR

   That you're my sweetheart dear you surely do know.
   Come see me tonight! Whisper your name gently as you go!

   Come around midnight, at the day's first bell tone!
   Father will sleep. Mother will sleep. I'll sleep alone.

   Knock on my chamber door! Open with care!
   Father will sleep. Mother will think it's just the air.

Two additional (later?) verses:

   But when the morning brings the rooster's first crow,
   Sweetheart dear, sweetheart, that's when you must go.

   Gently sneak down the hall! Close up with care!
   Father will sleep. Mother will think it's just the air.

I sing it like this:

   DAT DU MYN LEYVSTE(N) B?ST

   Dat du myn leyvste(n) b?st, dat du wol weetst.
   Kaam by dey nacht, kaam by dey nacht! Seg, wou du heetst!

   Kaam du ?m middernacht! Kaam du klok eyn!
   Vadder sl?pt, Mouder sl?pt, ik slaap alleyn.

   Klop an dey kamerd??r! Vaat an dey klink!
   Vadder sl?pt, Mouder meynt, dat dayt dey wind.

Two additional (later?) verses:

   K?mt den dey morgenst?nd, krayt denn dey haan,
   Leyvste(n) myn, leyvste(n) myn, den mutst du gaan.

   Sachtens den gang hinlang, lys' mit dey klink,
   Vadder sl?pt, Mouder meynt, dat dayt dey wind.

Phonetic (simplified SAMPA http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/home.htm):

   dat du mi:n 'le.Ifstn bYst dat du vO.l we:st
   kQ:m bi deI naxt kQ:m bi deI naxt zEC vo.U du he:st

   kQ:m du Y.m 'mId3`naxt kQ:m du klOk e.In
   'fad3` sl9pt mo.Uder sl9pt Ik slQ:p a'le.In

   klOp a.n deI 'kQ:merd9:3` fQ:t a.n deI klI.Nk
   'fad3` sl9pt mo.Uder me.Int dat da.It deI vI.nt

Two additional (later?) verses:

   kY.mt dE.n deI 'mo3`gNstY.nt kra.It dE.N deI hQ:n
   'le.Ifstn mi:n le.Ifstn mi:n dE.n mYst du gQ:n

   'zaxN dEn ga.NK he.nla.Nk li:.z mIt deI klI.Nk
   'fad3` sl9pt mo.Uder me.Int dat da.It deI vI.nt

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 21 22:46:59 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:46:59 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.21 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.154659.0700.>

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From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Etymology


Good Evening, Lowlanders!

Troy said: "but it does remain that "at(t)orcoppe" 'spider' does occur in
Old English. "at(t)or" = poison, venom" (realised as "adder", in
modern English); "coppe" = "head". I would tend to trust Tolkein on this
one."

I remember the word _attercop_ being used for 'spider' by some of the very
old people I knew in Lancashire in my youth.Old English was in fact
_a:torcoppe_, correctly enough from Old English  _a:tr_ / _a:t(o)r_ ; OLd
Saxon ettor ; Old High German _eitar_ (whence Modern German Eiter); Old
Norse eitr.

In Lancashire dialect the word was also used metaphorically to refer to an
evil person.

I think the connection Troy makes with _adder_ must be incorrect, since this
word originally had an initial n- : OLd English _nae:d(d)re_ ; Old Saxon
_na:dra_ ( Cf. Middle Dutch _nadre_, Modern Dutch _adder_); Old High German
_ na:tara_ (Modern German _Natter_ )> Old Norse had _nathr_ (with etha), and
Gothic _nadrs_. It probably is related to Latin _natrix_ (a water snake).
Cf. also: Welsh _neidr_ (snake, viper) and OLd Irish _nathir_.

John Duckworth
Preston, UK


----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.21 (02) [E]

Dear Troy,

Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

> That may be the case, but it does remain that "at(t)orcoppe" 'spider' does
> occur in Old English. "at(t)or" = poison, venom" (realised as "adder", in
> modern English); "coppe" = "head". I would tend to trust Tolkein on this
> one.

Well, yes. My Sweet's 'The Student's Dictionary of ANGLO-SAXON' gives
'?t(t)ren, ?t(t)ern - poisonous, poisoned.' but little direct reference to
the term 'cop' or something like it to 'head'. (They favoured 'heafod -
head'). The closest is 'copp - summit' (which as an Afrikaner i find
heartily satisfying).
This doesn't mean I believe there was no such usage. On the contrary, I
believe there was. & I believe Tolkien heard it first in Afrikaans &
recognised it again, when he found it again, in Old English. The languages
are so closely related, as Mr R Hahn has pointed out in respect of so many
Lowlands languages, that there are a host of common features, including
names.
I read he found himself powerfully moved by the dialect & ancient texts of
his mother's people in the Northwest Midlands of England. I believe his
early contact with Afrikaans gave him, as it were, a foot in the door to
that Learning.
Afrikaans, in comparison to Modern English, rates as extremely conservative
(only in some respects, of course - we decline to decline, & conjugation
should only apply to consenting married couples. As for gender ---: Ahem.)
Very much of what he read as a student of that dialect must have been
immediately clear to him from Afrikaans. I know that is the case with me.

Yrs,
Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 21 23:05:39 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:05:39 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.21 (06) [A/E]
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.160539.0700.>

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.21 (03) [A/E]

Beste John en Ron,

Subject: Idiomatica

> In Northern Germany this _ja-nee_ (literally "yes-no") is also very
popular,
> though it's popularity seems to be dwindling with the acceleration of
> Germanization

> I am pretty sure that this _ja-nee_ originated from Lowlands Saxon (Low
> German), the earlier language of the land.
> I wonder if this is a general Continental Lowlands expression, if it is a
> Saxonism in Afrikaans, or if it sprang up independently in the two
> languages.  I suppose what we need to find out is if our friends in the
> Netherlands and Belgium are familiar with it too.  Might our British
friends
> know of a thing like this in English and/or Scots (*_aye-na_?) dialects
> even?

Ja-nee; ek reken saam met Reinhard is die gebruik deur VOC werknemers uit
Neder- Sakse in die Taal oorgedra. Aldus Jan Alleman in sy 'Diary' is daar
genoeg van hulle gewerf. Van Riebeek in sy dagboek het hulle werkvermo? hoog
op prys gestel. Ennnn, te wyte aan hulle 'powere Hollands' is hulle , so te
s?, op die Kaap-Stasie agtergelaat. Foei tog!
As the English-speaking South-African would say:
Ja-well-no-fine! I reckon with Reinhard that the usage was carried over into
the Taal by Low-Saxon employees of the Dutch East-India Company. According
to Jan Alleman in his Diary there were enough of them recruited. Van Riebeek
in his diary set high value on their industry. Annnnnd, owing to their 'poor
Hollands' they were, so to say, marooned on the Cape-Station. Shame!

Groete,
Mark

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Idiomatica

Liewe Mark,

Dit mag reg wees, en ek glo ook, dat die Nedersassiese bydra? in Suid-Afrika
meer aandag nodig het.  Maar ons moet versigtig wees, moet eerst vir
antwoorde van Nederland, Belgi? en Frans-Vlaanderen wag.  Maar ek hou baie
van jou geesdrif, Mark!

You may be on the right track, and I too believe that Lowlands Saxon (Low
German) contributions in South Africa require more attention.  But we ought
to be careful, ought to first wait for responses from the Netherlands,
Belgium and French Flanders.  But  I do enjoy your enthusiasm, Mark!

Groete/Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 22 00:09:33 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:09:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.21 (07) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.170933.0700.>

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From: Jan Strunk <strunkjan at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.21 (04) [E]

Leive L?e,

toufallig hev ik de CD ouk in mien Regal staon.
> As soon as I find the time, I can copy the text for "De Groffschmitt" from
> the album cover, but it may take me a few days - I'm totally swamped with
> work at the moment. Also, any other song from the album that you might
like.
> By the way, when the bombs started falling on Baghdad, I posted the text
of
> another song from the album - "De jonge Wetfru" (The young widow), as some
> of you might remember. It's one of those songs that always give me the
> shivers.

Hier nu de text nao Wader (met de schrievwies van de CD):
Wat in klammern steiht k?mmt van mi.
Ik mott daotou seggen dat he dat v?el beter utspreken deit as me nao den
beeten geelen text ?nner vermoden w?r. De L?e de den text upschreven hebt,
kunnen
woll nich so good platt.

|:Een Groffschmidt seet in gode Roh:|
un schm?k sien Piep Tobak dar to.
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|: War klappt denn dar an miene D?r:| (sull woll eigentlich: "Wat kloppt
denn dar an miene D?r" heten...)
as wenns de D?wel s?lber w?r?
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|:Wat schrifft he denn, mien leve Fritz:|
de up de Universit?t rumflitzt?
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|:He hett sick mit de Kieler slan:|
un schall nich mehr collegen gahn.
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|:De Fritz de wahnt in'n golden Stern,:|
dar hebbt em all de Deerns so gern.
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|:Ick schall man gau nah Kiel henkamen:|
un schall dem Bengel dat Fell versahlen.
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|:Un as he denn nah Kiel henkeem:|
un glieks em in Empfang wull nehmen.
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|:Hess du di mit de Kieler slan:|
un schasst nich mehr collegen gahn?
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

Guten Tag, guten Tag, der Herr Papa,
seid ihr denn auch schon wieder da?
Es freut mich sehr, Sie hier zu sehn',
wie mags mit meinem Wechsel stehn'?

|:Von dienen Wessel hol dat Mul:|
du Aas, du Biest, du R?benschwien.
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

Was hab ich Euch zu leid getan?
So f?hrt man keinen Burschen an!
Den ganzen Tag hab ich studiert
und abends auch noch kommersiert.

|:Dat Rumpusseern dat schasst man lat'n:|
schasst lever up'n Amboss slan!
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

Zwei Freunde hatten sich entzweit
und forderten sich auf zum Streit,
ich aber lud sie in mein Haus
und gab dann den Vers?hnungsschmaus.

|:Von dien Vers?hnung schwieg man still,:|
ich will wohl weten, wat ick will. (Sull woll "Ick will woll weten"
heten...)
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|:Pack man dien Kram, nu is dat ut,:|
wi fahrt mit'n ersten Zug nah Hus.
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|:Lat mi hierblieb'n, ick doht nich mehr,:|
dat is so schlimm nich worden hier.
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|:Nee, nee, mien Jung, nu geihst du mit,:|
dat is nu ut, nu warste Schmitt.
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|:Gott segne diene studia,:|
ut di ward nix, halleluja!
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

Deit mi leed, apatt ik hev vanaovend kien tied to'n ?versetten mehr.
Villicht kunn dat je een van ink daon!

Beste gr?ten!

Jan Strunk
of ouk: Mester Johann
strunk at linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 22 14:27:15 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 07:27:15 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Oral tradition" 2004.07.22 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.072715.0700.>

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From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Oral Tradition


Sandy wrote:

"All this talk of Arthur still leaves me wondering why there's such a
strong
tradition of Merlin in Berwickshire, though."

There is a legend that Merlin died in the village of Drumelzier in
Peeblesshire (on the confluence of the River Tweed and the Powsail Burn),
stoned to death by frightened villagers, and that his tomb is located there.
The grave is marked by a plaque.

In Stobo in Peebles there is a curious ancient stone and the locals relate
that the marks on its upper surface were made by a witch who turned into a
hare when being hunted by Merlin.

In Moffat in Dumfriesshire there is a legend that Merlin fled to Hartfell
after being defeated in battle in 573. A number of local geographical
features are also named after Arthurian characters: there is an Arthur's
Seat here too, and a Merlin's Cave (near Newton Farm, for the curious).

The name or Merlin (Welsh Myrddin) appears in the form _Mirdyn_ in the Old
(or Middle) Welsh poem _Y Gododdin_, that may well have been written in a
Brythonic Edinburgh. Unfortunately it only appears once, and only in a later
version, which suggests that it may be a later interpolation.

John Duckworth
Preston, UK

----------

From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Oral tradition" 2004.07.20 (05) [E]

Someone (sorry, lost the thread ... wrote
>> And why do archeologists still keep digging in Wales for evidence of
>Arthur
>> when they never manage to find anything? The idea that Avalon or Camelot
>was
>> at Glastonbury in Somerset is an obvious linguistic gaffe - Arthur was
>said
>> to have built a city of glass, but the "glas" in Glastonbury refers to
the
>> woad that used to be grown there (cf Welsh "glas" - "blue/grey/green").

First, to correct the impression given by the close proximity of these
two sentences: Somerset is not in Wales.

Second, 'why do archaeologists still keep digging ....'.  There are now
in the UK two kinds of archaeologists.  The majority of archaeological
activity (excavation, fieldwalking, desktop research, building analysis,
etc.) is undertaken as part of the licensed destruction process.  The
developer has to pay for archaeological work as a condition of being
given permission to destroy.

These ('commercial' or 'rescue') archaeological activities should be
framed by a research agenda: i.e. developer decides to build new factory
just outside Swansea.  The archaeological unit which has been given the
work (by a competitive tendering process) and the planning process
itself both contribute to a list of questions which the excavation might
answer.  If, for example, worked flints have been found there in
previous field walking, the investigation might include looking closely
at the Neolithic.  If local legend says that the site was used in the
19th century by charcoal burners, investigation might include looking
closely for traces of that process.

So if local legend says 'Arthur had a castle in that field', then the
research agenda will possibly say 'is there any evidence of
fortification, or other use, in a period which might be considered
'Arthurian' - i.e. from about 200 to about 1200.  That is not the same
thing at all as looking for Arthur.  But it will come through to the
popular press that the archaeologists are looking for Arthur!

The other kind of archaeological investigation is 'research
archaeology', carried out by universities and avocational
archaeologists.  Here the site is chosen, in part, for its potential to
answer questions in a research framework. The research agenda might
include questions where 'Arthur' is mentioned - but this would, I think,
never be 'Did Arthur live here?' or 'Did Arthur exist?'.  Rather, they
would be translating 'Arthur' in local tradition to 'early occupation',
and asking what material remains might have prompted the tradition, or
the tradition may be recalling.

Similarly, now that Arthur is given an early post-Roman date, many
research questions that are addressing that period are translated (by
the media, or by archaeologists) into 'Arthur', because that will give
the public some idea of 'when' they are looking: e.g. 'what use was made
of this Roman fort in the early post-Roman period' becomes 'Did Arthur
use this fort?'

So, I am afraid, for the writer, the answer is that archaeologists are
not looking for Arthur _anywhere_, rather than that they are looking
particularly hard in Wales.  When we have the luxury of choosing the
questions for ourselves, we have much more interesting ones to deal with
than 'Where was Camelot?'

With best wishes,

Pat

(research student in archaeology, asking questions about how people
identified themselves as 'Dutch' outside of the Low Countries in the
1600s and 1700s)

--
Pat Reynolds
pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk
   "It might look a bit messy now,
                    but just you come back in 500 years time"
   (T. Pratchett)

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 22 14:59:01 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 07:59:01 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.22 (02) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.075901.0700.>

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From: yasuji <yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Literature

Dear Lowland Friends,

You can hear the song "Dat du mien Leefsten b?st" the first stanza and the
second stanza:

http://www.blancke-trio.de/

I think there are several varionations of the lyric of this songs. I don't
from where this song is originated. Please adivse where ist the original
place.

Hartlich Groten,

Yasuji Waki, ut Japan

----------

From: Szelog, Mike <Mike.Szelog at citizensbank.com>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.21 (07) [E/LS]

The version that Mr. Strunk submitted is indeed the version I know of this
song - Looks like there was a verse left out though; before the third verse
"Wat schrifft he denn....." is where I remember the verse " |:Dat is een
Brief van de Kieler Post:| dey twee un twining Penning kost. Ziru......."

Again, sorry for the poor rendition of the dialect - going by memory here.

Mike S
Manchester, NH - USA

BTW - I got this quite a while ago on tape (actually someone copied it for
me), is it available on CD?!

From: Jan Strunk <strunkjan at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.21 (04) [E]

Leive L?e,

toufallig hev ik de CD ouk in mien Regal staon.
> As soon as I find the time, I can copy the text for "De Groffschmitt" from
> the album cover, but it may take me a few days - I'm totally swamped with
> work at the moment. Also, any other song from the album that you might
like.
> By the way, when the bombs started falling on Baghdad, I posted the text
of
> another song from the album - "De jonge Wetfru" (The young widow), as some
> of you might remember. It's one of those songs that always give me the
> shivers.

Hier nu de text nao Wader (met de schrievwies van de CD):
Wat in klammern steiht k?mmt van mi.
Ik mott daotou seggen dat he dat v?el beter utspreken deit as me nao den
beeten geelen text ?nner vermoden w?r. De L?e de den text upschreven hebt,
kunnen
woll nich so good platt.

|:Een Groffschmidt seet in gode Roh:|
un schm?k sien Piep Tobak dar to.
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|: War klappt denn dar an miene D?r:| (sull woll eigentlich: "Wat kloppt
denn dar an miene D?r" heten...)
as wenns de D?wel s?lber w?r?
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|:Wat schrifft he denn, mien leve Fritz:|
de up de Universit?t rumflitzt?
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|:He hett sick mit de Kieler slan:|
un schall nich mehr collegen gahn.
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|:De Fritz de wahnt in'n golden Stern,:|
dar hebbt em

|:Ick schall man gau nah Kiel henkamen:|
un schall dem Bengel dat Fell versahlen.
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|:Un as he denn nah Kiel henkeem:|
un glieks em in Empfang wull nehmen.
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|:Hess du di mit de Kieler slan:|
un schasst nich mehr collegen gahn?
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

Guten Tag, guten Tag, der Herr Papa,
seid ihr denn auch schon wieder da?
Es freut mich sehr, Sie hier zu sehn',
wie mags mit meinem Wechsel stehn'?

|:Von dienen Wessel hol dat Mul:|
du Aas, du Biest, du R?benschwien.
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

Was hab ich Euch zu leid getan?
So f?hrt man keinen Burschen an!
Den ganzen Tag hab ich studiert
und abends auch noch kommersiert.

|:Dat Rumpusseern dat schasst man lat'n:|
schasst lever up'n Amboss slan!
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

Zwei Freunde hatten sich entzweit
und forderten sich auf zum Streit,
ich aber lud sie in mein Haus
und gab dann den Vers?hnungsschmaus.

|:Von dien Vers?hnung schwieg man still,:|
ich will wohl weten, wat ick will. (Sull woll "Ick will woll weten"
heten...)
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|:Pack man dien Kram, nu is dat ut,:|
wi fahrt mit'n ersten Zug nah Hus.
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|:Lat mi hierblieb'n, ick doht nich mehr,:|
dat is so schlimm nich worden hier.
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|:Nee, nee, mien Jung, nu geihst du mit,:|
dat is nu ut, nu warste Schmitt.
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

|:Gott segne diene studia,:|
ut di ward nix, halleluja!
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

Deit mi leed, apatt ik hev vanaovend kien tied to'n ?versetten mehr.
Villicht kunn dat je een van ink daon!

Beste gr?ten!

Jan Strunk
of ouk: Mester Johann
strunk at linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Literature

Yasuji wrote above:

> You can hear the song "Dat du mien Leefsten b?st" the first stanza and the
> second stanza:
>
> http://www.blancke-trio.de/

Thanks.  That's an interesting redition.

What bothers me about most renditions is that they make the song sound like
some sort of church hymn or lullaby.  People seem to forget that this is a
love song with a "naughty" proposition.

> I think there are several varionations of the lyric of this songs. I don't
> from where this song is originated. Please adivse where ist the original
> place.

I'm not sure anyone knows, but I'll do a bit of rummaging in books in hopes
of finding some information.  Perhaps someone else knows the answer and can
spare me the work.

Mike wrote above:

> BTW - I got this quite a while ago on tape (actually someone copied it for
> me), is it available on CD?!

Yep! Here it is:

Hannes Wader, _Plattdeutsche Lieder_, April 10, 1990, Mercury
(Universal/Polygram), ASIN: B0000085AD

Contents:


  1.. De Groffschmidt
  2.. Jehann
  3.. L?tt Anna Susanna
  4.. Dor weer enmol en l?ttje Buurdeern
  5.. Dat du mien Leefsten b?st
  6.. Lustig reed he
  7.. He s? mi so vel
  8.. De Moel
  9.. Keen Graff is so breet
  10.. L?tt Matten
  11.. De junge Wetfru
  12.. Hartleed
  13.. Trina (Trina, komm mal voer de Doer)
  14.. Dat Hus inne Masch (Dar buten inne Masch)

At Amazon (though this is not a commercial endorsement):
Canada:
http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000085AD/qid=1090508088/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/701-6425516-9536329
(CAN$23.99, but also offered at as low as CAN$18.42 -- I bought it in Canada
about 7 years ago, and it was under CAN$15 then.)
France:
http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000085AD/qid=1090508230/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/402-5479704-1184910
(EUR 10.35)
Germany:
http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000085AD/qid=1090508138/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i4_xgl/302-9564695-3284860
(reduced to EUR 6.66 -- scroll down to hear a snippet of each song)
Japan: Not in stock
UK: Not in stock
USA:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000085AD/qid=1090508048/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-8851052-4041512?v=glance&s=music
(US$18.99)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 22 15:00:20 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:00:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.22 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.080020.0700.>

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From: D.M.Pennington <dmpmos at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.21 (06) [A/E]

Sirs:

In Lancashire they say : "Yay and Nay".

They do in my part of that county, anyroad!

Problem is, normally "yay" is restricted to women as an emphatic "yes".

Men in my neck of the woods say: "Yah it is!" or "Nay it's not!" when
contradicting.

By the way, I'm not "British", I'm English.

The "British" were Celts.

Pennington

Moscow

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 22 15:03:02 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:03:02 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2004.07.22 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.080302.0700.>

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From: HALLS Haeng-Cho <zzhhalls at student.uq.edu.au>
Subject:


Pat

(research student in archaeology, asking questions about how people
identified themselves as 'Dutch' outside of the Low Countries in the
1600s and 1700s)


Your research subject caught my eye, Pat. I would be most interested to know
how that  is faring :)

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 22 15:30:26 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:30:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.22 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.083026.0700.>

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From: Szelog, Mike <Mike.Szelog at citizensbank.com>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.22 (02) [E/LS]

THANKS!! I'll have to update my collection!

Mike S

Mike wrote above:

> BTW - I got this quite a while ago on tape (actually someone copied it for
> me), is it available on CD?!

Yep! Here it is:

Hannes Wader, _Plattdeutsche Lieder_, April 10, 1990, Mercury
(Universal/Polygram), ASIN: B0000085AD

Contents:

  1.. De Groffschmidt
  2.. Jehann
  3.. L?tt Anna Susanna
  4.. Dor weer enmol en l?ttje Buurdeern
  5.. Dat du mien Leefsten b?st
  6.. Lustig reed he
  7.. He s? mi so vel
  8.. De Moel
  9.. Keen Graff is so breet
  10.. L?tt Matten
  11.. De junge Wetfru
  12.. Hartleed
  13.. Trina (Trina, komm mal voer de Doer)
  14.. Dat Hus inne Masch (Dar buten inne Masch)

At Amazon (though this is not a commercial endorsement):
Canada:
http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000085AD/qid=1090508088/ref=sr_8_xs_
ap_i1_xgl/701-6425516-9536329
(CAN$23.99, but also offered at as low as CAN$18.42 -- I bought it in Canada
about 7 years ago, and it was under CAN$15 then.)
France:
http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000085AD/qid=1090508230/ref=sr_8_xs_
ap_i1_xgl/402-5479704-1184910
(EUR 10.35)
Germany:
http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000085AD/qid=1090508138/ref=sr_8_xs_
ap_i4_xgl/302-9564695-3284860
(reduced to EUR 6.66 -- scroll down to hear a snippet of each song)
Japan: Not in stock
UK: Not in stock
USA:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000085AD/qid=1090508048/sr=1
-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-8851052-4041512?v=glance&s=music
(US$18.99)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Literature

You're welcome, Mike.

Here's another full MP3 recording, of a performance by the group De
QuarteersL??d :
http://quarteerslued.de/songs/mp3/ql_datdu.m3u

De song is believed to be from Schleswig-Holstein, and I see the rough
estimate of 1800 flying around as the date of origin.  I'm taking all that
with a grain of salt for now.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 22 19:41:33 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:41:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Oral tradition" 2004.07.22 (06) [E/German]
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.124133.0700.>

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Oral tradition" 2004.07.22 (01) [E]

Dear John,

Subject: Oral Tradition

Good stuff on Merlin! If there were a 'Matter of Britain' web page of the
calibre of Reinhard's 'L-Lowlands', bet I'd be on it like a shot. I won't be
alone, I think.

Yrs,
Mark

Dear Pat,

Same to you, on archaeology. The historical record is, as I aver, 'cooked'.
In my opinion the only hope of a reliable 'History' of Britain covering the
late Roman to early Anglo-Saxon period is a distant prospect: & it will be
the product of gradual, methodical archaeological research testing the
local -
& I insist on the term 'local', folk record. There is too much speculative
scholarship on the Arthurian period, starting, I think, with Ol' Geoff, & it
gets worse every year. I won't say I dislike the speculation, I speculate
myself, but I confess I suspect I like it in the wrong way, for the wrong
reasons.

Regards,
Mark

P.S.

> (research student in archaeology, asking questions about how people
> identified themselves as 'Dutch' outside of the Low Countries in the
> 1600s and 1700s)

Is this (above) a serious statement? If so, you are about to be so snowed
under!

----------

From: HALLS Haeng-Cho <zzhhalls at student.uq.edu.au>
Subject:


Ach Wei!!!
so ein Heimweh f?r Deutschland habe ich bekommen als ich das Lied nach so
vielen Jahren noch mal zu h?ren bekam!

so was gibt's nirgendwo sonst auf der Welt, au?er vielleicht auch in Holland
:)

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 22 20:35:15 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:35:15 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.22 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.133515.0700.>

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From: Troy Sagrillo <meshwesh at bigfoot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.21 (05) [E]

on 22.07.2004 12.46 AM, John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> Troy said: "but it does remain that "at(t)orcoppe" 'spider' does occur in
> Old English. "at(t)or" = poison, venom" (realised as "adder", in
> modern English); "coppe" = "head".

[snip]

> I think the connection Troy makes with _adder_ must be incorrect, since
this
> word originally had an initial n- : OLd English _nae:d(d)re_ ; Old Saxon
> _na:dra_ ( Cf. Middle Dutch _nadre_, Modern Dutch _adder_)

Yes, that is correct. My apologies for repeating a folk etymology on the
list.  Indeed it was the Dutch (and my faulty memory) that lead me to regard
it as being correct.

I noticed in Clark Hall's Concise Anglo-Saxon Dictionary that besides
atorcoppe, Old English also has atorloppe, loppe, and spithre ["th" = eth]
for "spider". Loppe is apparently related to loppestre, lopust (both used
for lobster and locust). Presumably these forms are related to "lope
[(broken) walk)]; leap", but I am not sure.

Standard Dutch has "spin" for "spider", but "spinnekop" is fairly widely
used I believe, at least in the north of Flanders (the Kempen). Is it used
elsewhere in Flanders and/or the Netherlands?

Cheers,

Troy

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Etymology

Middle Dutch has _coppe_ and _cobbe_, retained (as _koppe_, _kobbe_) in
various Flemish dialects.  (Also in Zeelandic?)

Westphalian Lowlands Saxon (Low German) dialects (also Twente ones?) have
_kobbe_.

There's the Proto-Germanic reconstruction *_aitra-_ "poisonous ulcer":  Old
English _?tr_, _?tor_ and _attor_ (> Middle English _?ter_), Old Saxon
_?tar_ (> _edder_ etc.), Old German _eitar_ and _eittar_ (> _Eiter_), Old
Norse _eitr_ (> _etter_, _edder_, etc.) and the like seem to have begun with
the sense of 'pus', 'corrupt matter from sores, etc.', and later variously
added on the values 'bitterness', 'gall' as well as 'poison', 'venom' of
snakes, spiders, etc.  Apparently, _atter_ is still a commonly used Scots
word denoting 'corrupt matter', 'pus'.

Slavonic for 'venom': Russian ?? _jad_, Polish _jad_, Czech _jed_.  Related
or coincidental?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 22 21:12:03 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:12:03 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativa" 2004.07.22 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.141203.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Administrativa

Dear Lowlanders,

Does any of you know whom the following Canadian email address belongs to?

d2d at shaw.ca
(ESMTP id <0I1900MEVT6OV9P0 at pd6mr6no.prod.shaw.ca>)

It appears to be someone's alternative address to which he or she
automatically redirects Lowlands-L mail.  This account has been filled over
quota for quite a few weeks now, and I have been getting at least one
delivery error message for each LL-L installment I have sent out ...  Yet, I
can't unsubscribe this person because I do not know which of our subscribed
addresses is linked with it.  It's SOOO annoying!  If it's yours, and you
come forward and tell me so, I promise I won't "scream" at you.  Just do,
please!

This is to everyone: please don't do this sort of thing to us.  If you have
LL-L mailings rerouted, please let us know what the reroute address is.
We'll make a note of it and will be able to handle the situation should
there be any error.  Thanks for being considerate.

Welcome to our New Lowlanders!  I'll mention you again and will list your
places of residence in my next biweekly message.  In the meantime, PLEASE
read the rules before you send out posting submissions:
http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules.  Some of you, including
"older" Lowlanders keep making the same mistakes.

Thanks for your cooperation!

Regards,
Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
Founder & Administrator, Lowlands-L
lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
http://www.lowlands-l.net

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 22 23:27:34 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:27:34 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2004.07.22 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.162734.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Identity

Folks,

I've collected a few Middle English ethnonyms of the Lowlands along with
"telling" quotes.  I think material like this can tell us quite a bit about
a time when ethnic groups and countries were not seen in the way they are
nowadays.

Enjoy, and think about it!
Reinhard/Ron

***


LOWLANDS ETHNONYMS IN MIDDLE ENGLISH
(Middle English Dictionary: http://ets.umdl.umich.edu/m/med/)

BRABANT:
Brab?n (n.), also Barbain
   A person of Brabant
   A surname
   ___ cloth (a kind of linen made in Brabant)

Select quotes:
"A Braban brwed ?at bale." [1425]
"For xij ellys of braban cloth for awbys & amysses." [1446]
"He went to Roome with Flemynges and Barbayns." [1543]

***

FLEMING:
Fl?ming (n.), also Fl?ming (early), Flemming, Flameng (surname)
   (1) Inhabitant of Flanders or most Low-Franconian-speaking areas
   (2) Pedlar [Competition in trade colored the Englishman's view of the
Flemmings
   from the 14. cent. on; see esp. quots. 1390, a1450, a1500.]
   (3) A surname

Select quotes:
"?e Flemmynges ?at wone? in ?e weste side of Wales haue? ileft her straunge
speche and speke? Saxonliche inow." [1387]
"Certes, he Iaake Straw and his meynee ne made neuere shoutes half so
shrille, Whan that they wolden any Flemyng kille, As thilke day was maad vp
on the fox." [1390]
"And many fflemmynges loste here heedes at that tyme." [1435]
"Alle maner alienes and strangers, as wel Frensshmen and Picardes as
Flemmynges." [1436]
"But ye Flemmyngis, yf ye be not wrothe, The grete substaunce of youre
cloothe..ye make hit of oure Englissh wolle." [1450-1500]
What hath thenne Flaundres, be Flemmynges leffe or lothe, But a lytell
madere and Flemmyshe cloothe? [1450-1500]
"He was a Flemynge born in Flaundrys." [1460]
"?ys lond was full of Flemyngys and so ouersette wyth hom, ?at a man myght
not goo bytwyx townes for hom vnrobbet." [1500]

***

GERMAN/DUTCH(/CONTINENTAL SAXON):
D?ch (adj. & n.), also duche, deuch(e, dusche.
   German; also, Dutch
   ___ tonge, the German language; also, any of the non-Scandinavian
continental
   Germanic languages; (a) the German language; also, Dutch, Low German,
etc.;

   heigher ___, High German; louer ___, Low German
   surname.

Select quotes:
"Edward..gat..Edgar Adelynge..?is word Adelyng is compownede in Duche and in
Saxon [Higd.(2): after the langage of Saxons; L Saxonice] of Adel..and
lyng." [1387]
"?e kayser Lowis of Bauere..And..Princes and pople [of Brabant]..Al ?at spac
with Duche tung." [1425]
"Than leuyd stille..sche ?at was hys wife, a Dewche woman." [1438]
"A man whech cowd nei?yr wel wryten Englysch ne Duch." [1438]
"Ther saugh I..Pipers of the Duche tonge." [1450]
"?e booke..was nei?yr good Englysch ne Dewch." [1483]
"In Duche, a rudder is a knyght." [1500] {LS/Dutch _ridder_, G _Ritter_
'knight' ? RFH}
"The Northe est Contrey..whiche lond spekyn all maner Duche tonge, hyer
Dowche and lower Duche." [1500]

***

DUTCH:
Holander or Hollander
   A person of Holland

Select quotes:
"The town of Gaund have graunted hym xv ml. men..and beth redy at alle oures
at his comaundement, wythoute Hollanders, Zelanders, Brabanders."
[1435-1436]
"?e some of x li. wich ?e said William surmytteth of his godes to be
deliuered by the said Ric to an holander." [1440]
"To enquere who were takers of any of ?e Hollanders & Zellanders goodes."
[1443]

***

Fr?se (n.(1)), also Frisia, Frisie, Fres(e).
   Frisia [in some quots. confused with Phrygia]

Select quotes:
"Frisia [L Frisia, Frigia] is a lond vppon ?e clyue of ?e west occean, and
bygynne? in ?e sou? side from ?e Ryne, and ende? at ?e see of Denmark."
[1387]
"Frisia is a prouynce in ?e ne?er ende of Germania." [1398]
"?e Ryne..strecche? to Braban ?at is ny3e to ffrigia [Tol: frigia; L frisie]
in ?e sou?e syde." [1398]
"?e kyngdames he schuld lese Both of Saxon and Sueue, Teutonie and Frese."
[1440]
"The were lever to be take in Frise [rime: suffyse] Than eft to falle of
weddynge in the trappe." [1450]
"By tempestes of the sea he was putte into Frisia." [1475]

Fr?sl?nd (n.), also Frisland, Fr?selaund
   Frisia

Select quotes:
"Of Gutlonde ich wulle leden ten ?useond of ?an leoden and of Frislonde fif
?usend monnen." [1275]
"A marchaunde of Fryslande." [1306]

***

NORTHUMBRIA:
North-humbre (n.), also northumbre & (error) nor?hober
   Northumbria, people of Northumbria

Select quotes:
"Voure kinges hii made ?o in ?is kinedom, ?e king of westsex and of kent, &
of nor?hober ?e ?ridde, & ?e kyng of ?e march ?at was here amidde." [1325"
"Al ?e longage of ?e Nor?humbres [Higd.(2): men of Northumbrelonde; L
Northimbrorum], and specialliche at 3ork, is so scharp, slitting, and
frotynge and vnschape, ?at we sou?erne men may ?at longage vnne?e
vnderstonde." [1387]

***

SAXON:
Saxon (n.), also saxone, saxson, saxoun, saxun, -(i)an, -oin(e, sexon, -un &
saison, sa(i)sne, sesso(u)n, -oine, sesoigne.
   member of the Germanic tribe that invaded, conquered, and settled in
England, a Saxon; (b) *est (south) saxones*, people from the kingdom of the
East (South) Saxons; *west ___*, q.v.
   (a) The language of the Saxons; (b) the English language.
   (a) The land inhabited by the Saxons on the Continent; Saxony; (b) *est
(south, west) __*, the kingdom or area of the East (South, West) Saxons in
England [see also *West Saxon* n.].
   As adj.: of or belonging to the Saxons; *___ speche (tonge)*, the English
language.
   Surname

Select quotes:
"Men of Saxonia wone? toward ?e nor? endes of occean..and hatte Saxones of
saxum, ?at is, a stoon." [1387]
"Kyng Alredes turned alle in fere out of Latyn in to Saxon speche." [1387]
"Walsch Men be? Bretouns of kynde..Englysch men be? Saxoynes." [1425]
"?e walsch man Breton Sey? & clepe? vs Sayson." [1425]
"Mochel peple thei Slowen..of ?e hethene o?er sesoignes." [1450]
"There comme to Ynglonde or Briteyne thre my3hty peple of Germany, as
Saxons, Englische men, and Iutes." [1475]
"We haue herde the trouthe that the sasnes [F li sesne] of the kyn of
Aungier, of Saxoyne, be entred in-to oure londes and in-to oure heritages."
[1500]
"He [Woden] was dryghtyn, derrest of ydols praysid, And ?e solempnest of his
sacrifices in Saxon londes." [1500]

***

SCOT:
Scot (n.(1)), also scotte, scote, skot(te, schot(te & (in names) sckot,
scod(e-, schote, scos-, sceot, shot(t)es-, sot(t)es-, stodes-, settes-,
chettes-; pl. scottes, etc. & (chiefly early, gen.) scottene, (early gen.)
scotten, scotta, scotte & (?error) sottes.
   inhabitant of Scotland; a native Scot; a Scottish soldier; -- sometimes
used
   anachronisticall
   ___ lede, Scotland, the Scots
   ___ riveling, a derogatory nickname for a Scot
   ___ thede, kingdom (land, reaume) of scottes, Scotland
   ___ wade (water), the Firth of Forth
   ___ wath, the Solway Firth
   scottes king, king (prince) of scottes, the king of Scotland or of the
Scots
   langage of scottes, Gaelic
   tame ___, a Lowland Scot
   wilde ___, a Gaelic-speaking inhabitant of north or west Scotland, a
Highland Scot;
   (c) as a term of abuse; (d) Scotland; -- also pl.; (e) an inhabitant of
Ireland; also,
   a person, orig. Irish, who came to and settled in Scotland
   ___ of ir-lond, irish ___, peple of scottes; (f) mistransl. of OF sot
fool;
   (g) in surnames; (h) in place names

Select quotes:
"Heo h?fden..of Yrlonde Gillemaur ?ene stronge, of Scottene heo hafden alle
?a h?hsten & of Galeweo?e gumen swi?e kene." [1275]
"?e king [Arthur] was toward scottlond & awreke him he ?o3te Of scottes & of
picars ?at euere euele him wro3te." [1325]
"When a scot ne may hym hude ase hare in forme ?at ?e englysshe ne shal hym
fynde." [1325]
"Scottes [L Scoti] bee? i-cleped as it were Scites, for he com out of
Scythia." [1387]
"Alla, kyng of al Northumberlond..was ful wys and worthy of his hond Agayn
the Scottes." [1390]
"Now in Brytayne..fyue naciouns wone? ?erynne; ?at bee? Scottes in Albania,
?at is, Scotlond, Britouns in Cambria, ?at is, Wales..Flemmynges..Normans,
and Englischemen." [1387]
"Schame bityde ?e Skottes, for ?ai er full of gile." [1425]
"Hairy Scot [L Scotte], footed with a boot, wast thou not at the wrestlyng
in ?e cruk on ?e mowne?" [1450]
"Then mett hur..dyverce othir nacions, as Esterlynges, Espaynnardes, Lucans,
and Scottes; and all were on horsebacke savyng the Scottes, which were all
on fote." [1468]
"The water of Twide..departethe now of the este parte Englische men from
Scottes." [1475]
"He..lete calle ?e toune Berwik vp Twede, and ?ere ?ai duellede..?ai went
ouere ?e see into Irland and brou3t with ham Wymmen..but ?e men cou?e nou3t
vnderstonde ?e langage ne ?e speche of ?e wymmen, ney?er ?e wymmen of ?e
men, and ?erefore ?ai speken to-gederes as scottes [F sootz]." [1400]

***

ZEELAND:
S?land (n.), also selande, selond(e, selan, selandia & zel(l)and
   The county of Zealand in the Netherlands
   ___ cloth 'a kind of cloth made in Zealand'
   Title of a herald

Select quotes:
"In ei?er Germania bee?..Lothoringia, Frisia, Selandia." [1387]
"His wyf and his children..he lefte hem at Andwerp in Selond [L Selandia]."
[1387]
"Selonde [L Selandia] is an londe by ?e see syde." [1398]
"She..com in to a tovne of her owne in to Seland [LCCleo. 129: Selan] that
ys cleped Seryze." [1435]
"A commission..to comune & trete &c. with ?e commissairs of Holland &
Zelland." [1443]
"I have her at this tyme all the cheff schyppys of Duchelond, Holond,
Selond, and Flaundrys." [1449]
"Wee in Braban bye, Flaundres and Seland, more of marchaundy..then done all
other nacions..The marchaundry of Brabane and Selande Be madre and woade."
[1450-1500]
"Allso in that yere whas cryed pees betwixt Englond and Selond, holond, and
ffreslond perpetuell." [1450]
"Item, j pece of Seland clothe, with dyvers sealys at the endys." [1459]

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 22 23:53:10 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:53:10 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.22 (10) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.165310.0700.>

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Idiomatica

Beste Ron (en ook Mark natuurlijk),

Brabantish also has "ja-nee" in certain circumstances. When somebody
proposes something, and the addressed person is not particularly interested,
he/she might reply "ja-nee". For example:

A: "?rre gin goeste v? vanaved mee te gaan danse?" (B) , "Would you like to
go dancing this evening?" (E)
B: "Ja, ni? z?...'k z?n v? te m??g" (B) "Definitely not, I'm way too tired"
(E)

In "ja-nee" the "ja" seems to affirm, to confirm the "no" (note that English
can stress through repetition, for example "That's a no-no"). Standard Dutch
will rather use "welneen" in this case (or "neenwel" in the 19th century).
When somebody wants to deny an earlier made negation, he/she will usually
say "Da's wel" or "Da's jawel" in Brabantish.

Re "negation", I would like to add that in 1958 Dr. J. L. Pauwels published
a very fine article titled "De expletieve ontkenning nie(t) aan het einde
van de zin in het Zuidnederlands en het Afrikaans" in which he conclusively
shows that "het Afrikaanse systeem een versterkte calque schijnt te zijn van
het Zuidbrabantse systeem". Then he writes 43 pages, analyzing both systems,
finally concluding:

"Uit de overeenstemming tussen het Afrikaans en het Zuidnederlands ten
opzichte van het gebruik van afsluitend nie wil ik niet besluiten tot een
Zuidnederlandse herkomst van het Afrikaans. Immers, het lijkt me niet
uitgesloten dat eerstdaags een Noordnederlands dialectoloog ons verrast met
de mededeling, dat hij ook ergens boven de Moerdijk het gebruik van nie in
de nog levende volkstaal heeft aangetroffen. De nochtans schaarse
aanwijzingen die Nienaber daaromtrent heeft verstrekt, maken dat voor mij
waarschijnlijk. Het is mijns inziens niet vermetel te beweren, dat de
Nederlandse emigranten die voor het ontstaan van het Afrikaans
verantwoordelijk zijn, het zogenaamde specifiek Afrikaanse negatiesysteem
uit Europa hebben meegebracht en dat iets in de aard van het huidige
Aarschotse systeem moet worden beschouwd als het prototype van het
Afrikaanse. Ik meen dat deze studie bewezen heeft, dat het Afrikaanse
systeem nog niet ver is afgedwaald" van zijn voorganger. Alleen is de
eindnegatie duidelijker tot uiting gekomen, "tastbaarder" geworden, ik
bedoel noodzakelijk, waar ze vroeger slechts facultatief was, ze is dus een
vaster taalelement geworden. De modaliteiten van het gebruik van eind-nie
zijn grosso modo nog dezelfde en de zeldzame afwijkingen die we vaststelden,
schijnen nog grotendeels te ontbreken in het Afrikaans van nog geen eeuw
geleden."

Side-note: As far as I know, this Northern Dutch dialectologist to whom
Pauwels is referring in his conclusion has not showed up yet. Please anybody
correct me if I'm wrong.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

***

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Interesting, Luc!

Afrikaners (or is that "Afrikaansers" these days?),

Don't you also use the tag _... n??_ or _... n??_ where English uses tag
questions ("..., isn't it?", "..., don't you?" etc.), Standard German uses
_..., nicht wahr?_ (dialectal _..., net?_, _..., gell(e)?_, etc.) and French
uses _..., n'est pas?_?

In Missingsch (i.e., German dialects on Lowlands Saxon substrates) and in
North German dialects influenced by Missingsch, it's _..., n??_ also,
pronounced virtually identically with Afrikaans _... n??_.  Some
"ete-petete" Hamburgers (those that want to come across as more
sophisticated than their linguistic roots permit) will say _..., n?ch?_,
influenced by German _..., nicht (wahr)?_.  It tends to be _..., ne_ in
Lowlands Saxon (Low German) also, usually pronounced [nE] also.

Examples:

LS:
Dat 's ja man 'n beten d?yr, ne? (That's a bit expensive, isn't it?)
Vundaag' k?mt Vadder tr?gg, ne, Oma? (Dad will come home today, won't he,
Gramma?)
Tou dummerhaftig, ne? ((It's) Really stupid, ain't it?)

Hamburg Missingsch:
Dascha man 'n b?schen teua, n??  (That's a bit expensive, isn't it?)
Heude kommt Pappa wieda, n?, Oma? (Dad will come home today, won't he,
Gramma?)
Zu bl?de, n?? ((It's) Really stupid, ain't it?)

Does this ring familiar to Afrikaans ears?  How about the ears of the Low
Franconian areas?

In some contexts it's similar to "..., huh?_ in some English dialects, I
suppose.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 22 23:56:35 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:56:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.22 (11) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.165635.0700.>

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From: Jan Strunk <strunkjan at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.22 (02) [E/LS]

Leive L?e,

> The version that Mr. Strunk submitted is indeed the version I know of this
> song - Looks like there was a verse left out though; before the third
verse
> "Wat schrifft he denn....." is where I remember the verse " |:Dat is een
> Brief van de Kieler Post:| dey twee un twining Penning kost. Ziru......."
Mea culpa. Heff ik woll een vergeten...

|:Dat is en Breef von de Kieler Post:|
de tweeuntw?ntig Penning kost. (Ik gl??v Hannes Wader singt aover: hett
tweeuntwintig Penning kost.)
Ziru-, Ziru-Zirallalla, ziru-ziru-zira.

> Yep! Here it is:
>
> Hannes Wader, _Plattdeutsche Lieder_, April 10, 1990, Mercury
> (Universal/Polygram), ASIN: B0000085AD
>
> Contents:
>
>
>   1.. De Groffschmidt
>   2.. Jehann
>   3.. L?tt Anna Susanna
>   4.. Dor weer enmol en l?ttje Buurdeern
>   5.. Dat du mien Leefsten b?st
>   6.. Lustig reed he
>   7.. He s? mi so vel
>   8.. De Moel
>   9.. Keen Graff is so breet
>   10.. L?tt Matten
>   11.. De junge Wetfru
>   12.. Hartleed
>   13.. Trina (Trina, komm mal voer de Doer)
>   14.. Dat Hus inne Masch (Dar buten inne Masch)
>
> At Amazon (though this is not a commercial endorsement):
> Canada:
>
http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000085AD/qid=1090508088/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/701-6425516-9536329
> (CAN$23.99, but also offered at as low as CAN$18.42 -- I bought it in
Canada
> about 7 years ago, and it was under CAN$15 then.)
> France:
>
http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000085AD/qid=1090508230/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/402-5479704-1184910
> (EUR 10.35)
> Germany:
>
http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000085AD/qid=1090508138/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i4_xgl/302-9564695-3284860
> (reduced to EUR 6.66 -- scroll down to hear a snippet of each song)
> Japan: Not in stock
> UK: Not in stock
> USA:
>
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000085AD/qid=1090508048/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-8851052-4041512?v=glance&s=music
> (US$18.99)

Actually, the version the CD that I own is a double CD called.
Hannes Wader - Der Volkss?nger
       EAN 0731453854321
       Label Mercury (Universal)
       Format Doppel CD
       Ver?ffentlichung 01.1999

17.99 Euro at Amazon.de

The first CD has only Low Saxon songs. The second CD has lots of High German
songs and
one funny Low Saxon song called Bollmann which is a little indecent.
I'll just give you the lyrics of this traditional.

Bollmann
Ganz egal, ganz egal
Bollmann kreich sine Frubben mol dahl.

Bollmann kreich sine Frubben an'ne Tein!
Ja, mein Gott Gustaf, wat is denn d?tt?
Tein? - T?ndel mein!
Ganz egal, ganz egal -
Bollmann kreich sine Frubben mol dahl.

Bollmann kreich sine Frubben an'nen Plattfaut!
Ja, mein Gott Gustaf, wat is denn d?tt?
Plattfaut, Tein - T?ndel mein!
Ganz egal, ganz egal -
Bollmann kreich sine Frubben mol dahl.

Bollmann kreich sine Frubben an'ne Hackebacke!
Ja, mein Gott Gustaf, wat is denn d?tt?
Hackebacke, Plattfaut, Tein - T?ndel mein!
Ganz egal, ganz egal -
Bollmann kreich sine Frubben mol dahl.

Bollmann kreich sine Frubben an' D?nnbeen!
Ja, mein Gott Gustaf, wat is denn d?tt?
D?nnbeen, Hackebacke, Plattfaut, Tein - T?ndel mein!
Ganz egal, ganz egal -
Bollmann kreich sine Frubben mol dahl.

Bollmann kreich sine Frubben an' Kneebeen!
Ja, mein Gott Gustaf, wat is denn d?tt?
Kneebeen, D?nnbeen, Hackebacke, Plattfaut, Tein - T?ndel mein!
Ganz egal, ganz egal -
Bollmann kreich sine Frubben mol dahl.

Bollmann kreich sine Frubben an' Dickbeen!
Ja, mein Gott Gustaf, wat is denn d?tt?
Dickbeen, Kneebeen, D?nnbeen, Hackebacke, Plattfaut, Tein - T?ndel mein!
Ganz egal, ganz egal -
Bollmann kreich sine Frubben mol dahl.

Bollmann kreich sine Frubben an'n ?s!
Ja, mein Gott Gustaf, wat is denn d?tt?
?s, Dickbeen, Kneebeen, D?nnbeen, Hackebacke, Plattfaut, Tein - T?ndel mein!
Ganz egal, ganz egal -
Bollmann kreich sine Frubben mol dahl.

Bollmann kreich sine Frubben an'n R?ch!
Ja, mein Gott Gustaf, wat is denn d?tt?
R?ch, ?s, Dickbeen, Kneebeen, D?nnbeen, Hackebacke, Plattfaut, Tein - T?ndel
mein!
Ganz egal, ganz egal -
Bollmann kreich sine Frubben mol dahl.

Bollmann kreich sine Frubben an'ne M?ppkens!
Ja, mein Gott Gustaf, wat is denn d?tt?
M?ppkens, R?ch, ?s, Dickbeen, Kneebeen, D?nnbeen, Hackebacke, Plattfaut,
Tein - T?ndel mein!
Ganz egal, ganz egal -
Bollmann kreich sine Frubben mol dahl.

Bollmann kreich sine Frubben an' "Pssst"!
Ja, mein Gott Gustaf, wat is denn d?tt?
"Pssst", (M?ppkens), R?ch, ?s, Dickbeen, Kneebeen, D?nnbeen, Hackebacke,
Plattfaut, Tein - T?ndel mein!
Ganz egal, ganz egal -
Bollmann kreich sine Frubben mol dahl.

frubben --> wife
m?ppkens --> breasts
r?ch --> back
?s --> behind
dickbeen --> upper leg
kneebeen --> knee
d?nnbeen --> lower leg
hackebacke --> heel
plattfaut --> foot
tein --> toe

V?el Spass!

Jan Strunk
strunk at linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de

P.S.: W??d ek nu van de list smieten, vanwiegen d?ssen twievelhaften Kraam?

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 23 00:07:00 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:07:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.22 (12) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.170700.0700.>

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From: Gustaaf van Moorsel <gvanmoor at aoc.nrao.edu>
Subject: Etymology

My brother, visiting me from the Netherlands, brought with him
a welcome supply of stroopwafels, some of which I distributed
here among friends who I know appreciate this delicacy.  One
of them replied with "thanks for the siroopwafels", using the
word "siroop" rather than "stroop".  And yes, on the package
it clearly does say "siroopwafels" > syrup waffles, although I
don't think anybody uses that word in actual speech.

So, what is the etymology of 'stroop'?  Is it somehow derived
from 'siroop', and if so, how does an 'i' become a 't'?  Or
does it a have derivation of its own?  Do other lowland
languages have cognates of 'stroop' (= cane sugar syrup)?

Gustaaf

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Etymology

Beste Troy,

> Standard Dutch has "spin" for "spider", but "spinnekop" is
> fairly widely used I believe, at least in the north of
> Flanders (the Kempen). Is it used elsewhere in Flanders
> and/or the Netherlands?

All the possible information re "spin" can be found at
http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~jvkeymeu/cyberlemmata/nederlands/
Just click on "spin" in the left frame, and then at the bottom you can
choose what you would like to see most. For example a "sprekende kaart",
which is litterally a "talking map", showing all the different words (plus
prononciation in major cities). Etymological information is also provided.
Personally, I always say "spinnekop".

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Etymology


Ron said:

"Slavonic for 'venom': Russian ?? _jad_, Polish _jad_, Czech _jed_.
Related or coincidental?"

I suppose it does not necessarily preclude the possibility of a relation,
but is it not possible (likely?) that these Slavonic words derive from a
root meaning 'to eat'? (Old Bulgarian _jadu_ (with breve on the _u_) 'ate'
<*_e:d-_

Semantically it would be just as possible to derive a word for poison from
the verb 'to eat' as it would from the verb 'to give' (as in German
_Giftstoff_). The English word _poison_ too, after all, is another form of
the word _potion_; both derive from the Latin verb _pot(are)_, 'to drink'.

John Duckworth
Preston, UK

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Interesting, John!

But, 'to eat' vs 'venom':
Russian: ???? jest' vs ?? jad
Polish: je?? vs jad
Czech: j?sti vs jed

Sure, they could be related (and, after all, there's really just a handful
of Indo-European roots when it comes down to it), but I'm not convinced at
this point.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 23 00:26:32 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:26:32 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2004.07.22 (13) [E/German]
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.172632.0700.>

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Identity

Hi Ron,

Under "Fl?misch", you can read this in Grimm's W?rterbuch:

sie machten ihm nicht blosz durch ihre gegenwart, sondern auch oft durch
fl?mische gesichter und bittre reden einen verdrieszlichen augenblick. 19,
123; der vorleser summte fort, machte dem advocaten ein fl?misch gesicht.
27, 119. auch nd. en vl?msk gesigt maken, b?s und verdrieszlich aussehn.
brem. wb. 1, 402. nur in der Schweiz hat sich f?r fl?msch die bedeutung von
fein, zart und weich erhalten, wie sie sich auch zur fl?mschen, zarten
feinen wolle schickt. STALDER 1, 376.

Under "Flandern":

FLANDERN, Flandria, Flamland. h?ufig im reim auf andern, treulosigkeit und
flatterhaftigkeit der weiber oder junggesellen auszudr?cken:

wann dise b?bin ist von Flandern,
sie gibt ein buben umb den andern.
         H. SACHS I, 516d;

wann die bulerin sind von Flandern,
geben ein narren umb den andern.
         V, 215a;

und noch ?fter bei diesem dichter, wie auch bei AYRER. ich fragte die zeit
nicht viel nach jungfrauen, gab eine umb die andere, wo ich hinkam, fand ich
eine, und wo ich wegzog, liesz ich eine. derowegen so war ich risch
geritten, sage 'meine herzliebe Hese, dein herz, dein rath, ich bin von
Flandern, gebe eine um die andern'. SCHWEINICHEN 1, 97;

mein feins lieb ist von Flandern,
gibt einen umb den andern,
wer ihr nicht zusprechen kann,
dem schneidt sie bald ein kappen an.
         fl. bl. um 1620;

doch weil mir nun bei andern
das gl?cke g?nstig scheint,
so bin ich auch von Flandern.
         WEISE ?berfl. ged. 4, 10;

ich lasz mich niemals den vorwurf betr?ben,
ich w?re von Flandern und striche herum.
         G?NTHER 258;

weil ich so gewohnt zu wandern
heute hier und morgen dort,
meinen sie ich w?r von Flandern,
schicken gleich mich wieder fort.
         G?THE 11, 339.

das flattern = flandern leitete von selbst auf den namen Flandern und auf
das unbest?ndige, nicht blosz in der liebe, sondern ?berall:

wann wir sind kummen her von Flandern,
geben ein drappen umb den andern.
         H. SACHS I, 517b,

drappe scheint traube, racemus? von uns entnahmen die Slaven b?hm. flandra,
poln. fladra, serb. flandra als schelte f?r ein leichtfertiges weib.
WITTENWEILER im ring 8b, 33. 8d, 25:

sie ritten in enander
recht sam die s?w von Flander;
und rumplen unter enander
sam wildeu swein von Flander.
FLANDRER, m. Flandrensis:

der Toscaner lieblichkeit
und der Flandrer witzigkeit.
         WECKHERLIN 376.

Greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Identity

Great stuff, Luc.  Thanks!

I hate to say this, but for the sake of knowledge I will share that an old
secondary meaning (now apparently blissfully obsolete in most dialects) of
Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _Vlaam_ (<Flaam> 'Fleming') is 'boorish, coarse
person', in some contexts also 'slovenly person' or 'person given to revelry
and other manner of unwholesome conduct' (my choice of words) ...  Oops!  I
wonder if this old (and apparently happily retired) prejudice has anything
to do with Protestant-based prejudices against Roman Catholics (and their
supposedly decadent, i.e. un-Purist, ways, not to mention the company of
Spaniards and other untrustworthy Southlanders they chose to keep  ;-) ).

Our esteemed Flemish friends have good company: an older (but perhaps only
semi-retired) LS and Missingsch word for 'rowdie', 'hooligan' or any type of
sociopathic (young) male is _Bryt_ (<Bri(e)t> [bri:t]) ...  ;-)

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 23 14:36:20 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:36:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.23 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUL.2004.073620.0700.>

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From: Thomas <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: IDIOMATICA Lowland Scots Lives OK

I recently visited my home town of Edinburgh Scotland for the first time in
33 years and was delighted to find that the local version of Lowland Scots
had made quite a come back. Even 'posh' folks speak it now and a few times
even I had to listen very carefully to determine if it was Scots or
something else being spoken.
Great to see that all the efforts made by English and would be Upper Class
Scots to suppress our native language have come to naught in the end. I
found it was dead easy to latch back into the language stream although my
wife thought it a huge joke that I spoke Scots with an Aussie accent I
didn't even know I had.
A great t-shirt line is the series depicting Lowland Scots words with full
Dictionary explantion. We have His and Hers 'CRABBIT' t-shirts, has to be
one of the world's most descriptive words. Lots of others on offer including
'Steamin' '. Good source is the shop in The Museum of Scotland.
Regards
Tom
Tom Mc Rae PSOC
Brisbane Australia
"The masonnis suld mak housis stark and rude,
To keep the pepill frome the stormes strang,
And he that fals, the craft it gois all wrang."
>>From 15th century Scots Poem 'The Buke of the Chess'

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 23 15:03:09 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:03:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.23 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUL.2004.080309.0700.>

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Idiomatica

Beste Ron,

> Don't you also use the tag _... n??_ or _... n??_ where
> English uses tag questions ("..., isn't it?", "..., don't
> you?" etc.), Standard German uses _..., nicht wahr?_
> (dialectal _..., net?_, _..., gell(e)?_, etc.) and French
> uses _..., n'est pas?_?
>
> In Missingsch (i.e., German dialects on Lowlands Saxon
> substrates) and in North German dialects influenced by
> Missingsch, it's _..., n??_ also, pronounced virtually
> identically with Afrikaans _... n??_.  Some "ete-petete"
> Hamburgers (those that want to come across as more
> sophisticated than their linguistic roots permit) will say
> _..., n?ch?_, influenced by German _..., nicht (wahr)?_.  It
> tends to be _..., ne_ in Lowlands Saxon (Low German) also,
> usually pronounced [nE] also.
>
> Examples:
>
> LS:
> Dat 's ja man 'n beten d?yr, ne? (That's a bit expensive,
> isn't it?) Vundaag' k?mt Vadder tr?gg, ne, Oma? (Dad will
> come home today, won't he,
> Gramma?)
> Tou dummerhaftig, ne? ((It's) Really stupid, ain't it?)
>
> Hamburg Missingsch:
> Dascha man 'n b?schen teua, n??  (That's a bit expensive,
> isn't it?) Heude kommt Pappa wieda, n?, Oma? (Dad will come
> home today, won't he,
> Gramma?)
> Zu bl?de, n?? ((It's) Really stupid, ain't it?)
>
> Does this ring familiar to Afrikaans ears?  How about the
> ears of the Low Franconian areas?
>
> In some contexts it's similar to "..., huh?_ in some English
> dialects, I suppose.

Sure we do. And even though it comes in many varieties, most of them (if not
all) have developed from "niet-waar" I read somewhere.
In Brabantish it will usually sound like "newaa", "ewaa", "waa", "naa" or
plain "?". Western Flemish usually has "w?" here. Would love to know where
English "huh", Canadian "hey" and French "hein" stem from, in this
respect...even though the last one could be off-topic...if so, sorry.

Greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Thanks, Luc.

OK, at this juncture it's about time to let everyone else in on the fact
that _nicht wahr?_, _niet waar_ etc. literally mean "not true?"

> Would love to know where English "huh", Canadian "hey" and French "hein"
stem
> from, in this respect...even though the last one could be off-topic...if
so, sorry.

I may be wrong here, but I've always thought of them as being "glorified
grunts" inviting agreement, a step below "..., right?"

Which takes me (not so elegantly) over to the widely used versatile
Australian expression "struth" (pronounced like "truth" with an "s" in
front, the "s", however, being pronounced as something between "s" and "sh"
by many (at least in Western Australia)).  I have never been able to
understand the full extent of its use, though I have a general idea and used
the expression myself while living in Australia.  (I won't even as much as
*try* using it here in the States, for that would *really* come across as
"alien.")

Some say this expression started off as "(this/it is) God's truth," namely
as a type of oath emphasizing the veracity of one's story.  (Alternatively,
you can say "Fair dinkum," but I feel this expression has begun to fade
away, sounds just too "Ocker" to many.)  You can still say "Struth!" after
telling an incredible-sounding story or if you read doubt or disbelief in
your audience's faces.  The other major use I have observed is emphasizing a
reprimand, for instance, "Stop that, Pete! Struth!", or just "Struth,
Pete!", something like "Really ...!" or "You're impossible!"  You can also
use "Struth!" in the sense of "(Oh,) Please!" or "Give me a break!" to
express disagreement.  I think you can furthermore use "Struth ..." to
placate someone's burst of anger, also in the sense of "Give me a break!" or
"Come one now!"  I'm sure there's more of this, and our friends in and from
Australia can elaborate.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 23 15:38:22 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:38:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.23 (03) [D/E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUL.2004.083822.0700.>

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From: Bouchonlemaitre at aol.com <Bouchonlemaitre at aol.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.22 (12) [E]

Beste Gustaaf,
in het westvlaams zegt men niet "stroop" maar enkel "siroop",wat dichter
staat bij het oorspronkelijke "sirupus" (middeleeuws latijn afkomstig van
het arabisch "charab").
Hoe het komt dat men in het noorden begonnen is met stroop te zeggen, zou ik
ook wel eens willen weten.
Groetjes aan allen,
stephan lemaitre

Dear Gustaaf,
in west flemish, we don't say "stroop" but only "siroop",what is closer to
the original "sirupus" (midieval latin from the arab "charab").
I would like to know too how it comes in the north one began to say stroop.
greetings to all,
stephan lemaitre.

----------

From: Jan Strunk <strunkjan at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.22 (12) [E]

Hello,

> "Slavonic for 'venom': Russian ???? _jad_, Polish _jad_, Czech _jed_.
> Related or coincidental?"
>
> I suppose it does not necessarily preclude the possibility of a relation,
> but is it not possible (likely?) that these Slavonic words derive from a
> root meaning 'to eat'? (Old Bulgarian _jadu_ (with breve on the _u_) 'ate'
> <*_e:d-_

Just an uninformed guess but the relation could be parallel to the relation
between German "essen" and "??tzen", i.e. an old causative formation or
something related...

Jan Strunk
strunk at linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de

----------

From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Etymology


Ron, and fellow Lowlanders:

Ron said:

"But, 'to eat' vs 'venom':Russian: ???????? jest' vs ???? jad
Polish: je???? vs jad Czech: j??shy;sti vs jed

Sure, they could be related (and, after all, there's really just a
handful of Indo-European roots when it comes down to it), but I'm not
convinced at this point."

I spent all afternoon searching in vain for my copy of Vasmer's
_Etimologicheskiy Slovar' Russkogo Yazyka_ (Etymological Sictionary of the
Russian Language), but I finally found it on the net. Interstingly enough,
he seems to go down the same avenues that I have.

"Word: ????,

Near etymology: ??????. ??. -??, ??????????????????, ??????. ????, ?????????? i????, ????.-??????????. ????? ,
?????  "????" (??????????????????????, ? ???? 64, 99), ?????????? "??????????????", ????.-????????. ??????  ????????
(????????., ????????.), ????????. ????(? ????) "????, ????????, ????????", ??????????????????. j?????? "????????????,
????????", ????????????. j????d "????????, ????", ????.-??????. je??d, ??????. ??. je??du "????", ??????. jed,
????????. jed, ????????????. j??d "???? ???????????????? ?? ????????????????", ??.-??????. je??d "????", ??.-??????.
je??d.

Further etymology: ????????. ???????????????????? ?????????????? ???????????????? *??du- ?? ???????????????? ??????
?????????? ?? ??.-??. *??d- (????. ????????, ????), ????. ??????. e????dis "??????, ????????", ????.-??????. a??t
????. ??. "??????????????", ????????.-??????????. ????t "???????????????? ?????? ????????????????" (?????????? -- ????????
9). ???????????????????????????? ?????????? ???????????????????? ?????????? ???????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????
???????????????? ?????? -- "??????????????"; ????. ??????. Gift "????" ???? g??b??n "????????????", ??????????.
????is??n "????" ???? ??????. p??ti??ne(m) "??????????" (??i. ??W 98; ??????????????, Grdr. 1, 131;
?????????????? 196; AfslPh 29, 119; ??????????????????????, ? ???? 64, 99; ???????????????? 701;
????????--?????????? 83). ???????????? ???????????? ?????????????? ???????????????? *oid- ?? ???????????????????? ?????? ??????????
?? ????????. ??????????? "??????????????", ???????????? "????????????????", ??.-??.-??. ??i?? "??????????" ?????? ????.-??????.
eitr ????. ??. "????, ????????", ??.-??.-??. ??it??r "????????", ??????. idr?? "???????????? ????????????????????
????????????" (??????, KZ 21, 5; ??. ??????????, Verw. 41; ????????????????, KZ 38, 312; IF 5, 43;
????????????????, ??SW 2 ?? ????.; ????????????????????????, ???? 27, 172; ???????? 2). ?????????? ????????????????
???????????????????? ????????. jad?  ?????? ???????????????? *?? ?? *d??, ??. ??. ?????????? "????, ?????? ????????,
??????????????" (????????????????, LF 57, 8 ?? ????.; 61, 53; ZfslPh 13, 416). ??????????????
?????????????????? ?? ????????????????????????, ?????? ??.-??. *??du ?? *oid- ?????????????? ?? ????????.; ????.
???????????????? I, 272. ????. ?????????? ??????."
I hope the above shows up in unicode! Here is a slightly abbridged
translation:

"???? _jad_: Ukrainian ????, _jad_,also i????, _jid_, Old Russian ?????  _jad? , ?????
'poison' , ?????????? _jad'no_, 'tumour' ; OSlavonic [the OSlav. Cyrillic
characters don't show properly on my screen, but I presume the form is:)
iad?  (corresponding to Greek ???????? _ion_, from the Codex Suprasiliensis);
Bulgarian ????(? ????) _jad(@t)_ , 'poison,' 'wrath', 'grief '; Serbo-Croat j??????
_j????d_, 'sorrow', 'grief' ; Slovenian _j????d_, 'anger', 'poison' ; Old Czech
_je??d_ (genitive case _je??du_ ) 'poison', Czech _jed_ ; Slovak _jed_, Polish
_jad_, 'poison of plants and animals'. Upper Lusatian (USorbian) / Lower
Lusatian (LSorbian) _je??d _, 'poison'.

Further Etymology. The older etymology holds that the root is _*??du-_, and
relates this word to the Indo-European _*??d-_ (see ????????, ???? ); cf.
Lithuanian  _e????dis_, 'food'; OLd Icelandic _a??t_, (neut.) 'food, meal' ;
Dano-Norwegian _aat_, 'bait for predators'. In accordance with this I
interpret here the euphemistic name ?????? -- , _jada-_, 'food, meal'; cf.
German _gift_, 'poison' from _geben_, 'to give'; French _poison_, 'poison',
from Latin _p??ti??ne(m)_, 'drinking, drink'. "

THE NEXT LINES ARE PERTINENT TO OUR ORIGINAL DISCUSSION!

"Other scholars include the root _*oid-_, and compare this word to the Greek
??????????? _oidos_, 'swelling', 'tumour', ???????????? _oidao:_, 'I swell up'; Old High
German _??i??_, 'abscess', or Old Icelandic _eitr_ (neut.), 'poison', 'anger',
Old High German _eitar_ , 'poison', Latvian _idra- , 'the rotten core of a
tree'.

Less believable is the suggestion that Slavonic _ jad? _ is a combination of
_*??_ and _*d??_, i.e. as if to say, 'that which is usually given'. See also
??????."

If you look up ??????, _jad'_, the Russian word for 'food', 'meal', you will
find the Russian plural noun ??????? ??????, _????b-jedi_, 'remains of food for
cattle'; [I would also add the very common Russian word ????????, _obed_,
'dinner' ] Old Russian ????????, _iad'_, 'food'; Old Slavonic (Codex
Suprasiliensis) _iad'_ 'food' : Old Prussian _ ??dis_, 'food', Lithuanian
_e????dis_, 'food'.

The problem you have when looking at the infinitive forms in the modern
Slavonic languages is solved when you see that the root for 'eating/ food'
seems to be something like _*jed/jad_.

Russian e??, _jem_, 'I eat' < Infinitive ???????? _jest'_ ; Ukrainian i????,
i??????????, _jim_, _jisty_ ; Byelorussian ????, ????????, _jem_, _jets'_ ; Old
Slavonic _iem'_, _iest'_ ; Bulgarian ????,, _jam_ ; Serbocroat j??????, j??????????,
_j????m_, j????sti_ ; Slovenian _je????m_, _je????sti_ ; Czech _ji??m_, _ji??sti_ ;
Polisg _jem_, _jes??c??_ ; Upper and Lower Lusatian (Sorbian) _je??m_,
_je??sc??_.

When you look at the further etymology of these forms, however, you will see
that we are dealing with two roots (I suspect the one in -d to be a kind of
perfect or perfective root), thus: Proto-Slavonic _*e??dm??_, 'I eat',
Infinitive _*e??sti ; Lithuanian _e????du_, _e????mi_, _e????dmi_ 1, _e????d?iau_,
_e????sti_, 'to eat' (of livestock) ; Latvian _????du_, _e^st- ; Old Prussian
_??st_, 'to eat' ; Sanskrit _a??dmi_, _a??tti_ ; Armenian _utem_, 'I eat' (from
Indo-European _*??d-_); Greek ???????,_edo:_, ????????????, _esthio:_,?????????, _estho:_
;Latin _ed??_, _??d??_ ; Gothic _itan_ , past tense _at_ ; Old High German
_??????an_, 'to eat' .

John Duckworth

Preston, UK

----------

From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Etymology


Greetings Lowlanders!

Looking into the possible connection of words for 'poison', 'venom' and
words for 'food' and 'to eat' got me thinking. First I thought of a possible
connection between the Indo-European words 'to eat', etc., and the Turkic
words _ot_, _od_, meaning 'herb', 'grass', and so on. Though this lies well
within Ron's field it is nevertheless a little off subject for this list.
Then I started to think about the English word _oat(s)_. I don't seem to be
able to think of any etymologies for this word outside the Anglo-Saxon area.
Old English, if my memory serves me right, used the form _a:t_, but does
anyone know of any cognates in the other Lowlands languages or beyond?
Surely Frisian at least must use a similar word?

John Duckworth
Preston, UK

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Thanks, John.

As for "oats," the Oxford Dictionary gives:

<quote>
[Cognate with West Frisian _oat_, Dutch _oot_, Dutch regional (West Flemish)
_ate_, _ote_, (Zeeland) _????t_, _????te_, all in sense 'wild oat' (cf. sense
3); further etymology uncertain: perh. < the same Indo-European base as
ancient Greek ??????????????]
</quote>

I have to admit that I, too, have thought of Altaic as a possible origin,
namely Turkic *_ot_ (cf. Mongolic *_(h)otul_ and Tungusic *_okta_) 'herb',
'grass', as a possible origin.  Perhaps it should not be discounted out of
hand, considering that many plants reached Europe from Central Asia.  In
fact, oats (_Gramineae. Avena_ sp) are believed to be of Asian origin.  This
certainly applies to ordinary oat (_Avena sativa_) and large naked oat
(_Avena nuda_), perhaps among the oldest surviving types.  Though kernels
have been found at ancient Egyptian sites and at Bronze Age sites in
Switzerland, oats as a major crop plant is believed to have reached Europe
from Asia Minor, thus from what is now Turkey, which already before Turkish
power had close ties with Central Asia.  It is in Asia Minor that oats are
found in their greatest variety.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 23 15:39:56 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:39:56 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.23 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUL.2004.083956.0700.>

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.23 (01) [E]

Tom wrote:

> I recently visited my home town of Edinburgh Scotland for the first time
in
> 33 years and was delighted to find that the local version of Lowland Scots
> had made quite a come back.

Maybe that's due to the recent publication of "The Wee Fre Men" by Terry
Pratchett, which I am currently reading. There's a tribe of small blue
tattooed, red-haired, kilt-wearing fairy-like belligerent creatures, called
"Pictsies", and they speak Scots all the way... (Ron, I'm not sure I want to
hear your comment this time!).

It's hilarious - big recommendation!

Gabriele Kahn

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 23 18:58:37 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:58:37 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Levity" 2004.07.23 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUL.2004.115837.0700.>

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From: Ben J. Bloomgren <godsquad at cox.net>
Subject: The lunacy of English

This is a funny piece about the oddities of English. Enjoy!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bloomgren, Kary" <kary.bloomgren at honeywell.com>
To: "'George Gohde'" <thegohd at cox.net>; "Rhodes, Larry"
<larry.rhodes6 at honeywell.com>
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 6:37 AM
Subject: FW: Tang Toungueled

> KARY BLOOMGREN
>
> I don't get my tang tongueled often, but.....
>
> English spoken here ...
>
> If you've learned to speak fluent English, you must be a genius! This
little treatise on the lovely language we share is
> only for the brave.  Peruse at your leisure, English lovers. Reasons why
the English language is so hard to learn:
>
>                    1) The bandage was wound around the wound.
>                    2) The farm was used to produce produce.
>                    3) The dump was so full that it had to refuse more
refuse
>                    4) We must polish the Polish furniture.
>                    5) He could lead if he would get the lead out.
>                    6) The soldier decided to desert his dessert in the
desert.
>                    7) Since there is no time like the present, he thought
it was time to present the present.
>                    8) A bass was painted on the head of the bass drum.
>                    9) When shot at, the dove dove into the bushes.
>                    10) I did not object to the object.
>                    11) The insurance was invalid for the invalid.
>                    12) There was a row among the oarsmen about how to row.
>                    13) They were too close to the door to close it.
>                    14) The buck does funny things when the does are
present.
>                    15) A seamstress and a sewer fell down into a sewer
line.
>                    16) To help with planting, the farmer taught his sow to
sow.
>                    17) The wind was too strong to wind the sail
>                    18) After a number of injections my jaw got number.
>                    19) Upon seeing the tear in the painting I shed a tear.
>                    20) I had to subject the subject to a series of tests.
>                    21) How can I intimate this to my most intimate friend?
>
>                   There is no egg in eggplant nor ham in hamburger;
neither apple nor pine in pineapple.
>                   English muffins weren't invented in England or French
fries in France.
>                   Sweetmeats are candies while sweetbreads, which aren't
sweet, are meat.
>                   Quicksand works slowly, boxing rings are square and a
guinea pig is neither from Guinea nor is it a
> pig.
>                   And why is it that writers write but fingers don't fing,
grocers don't groce and hammers don't ham?
>                   If the plural of tooth is teeth, why isn't the plural of
booth beeth? One goose, 2 geese. So one
> moose, 2 meese?
>                   Doesn't it seem crazy that you can make amends but not
one amend. If you have a bunch of odds and ends
> and get rid of all but one of them, what do you call it? Is it an odd, or
an end?
>                   If teachers taught, why didn't preachers praught?
>                   If a vegetarian eats vegetables, what does a
humanitarian eat? In what language do people recite at a
> play and play at a recital? Ship by truck and send cargo by ship? Have
noses that run and feet that smell?
>                   How can a slim chance and a fat chance be the same,
while a wise man and a wise guy are opposites? You
> have to marvel at the unique lunacy of a language in which your house can
burn up as it burns down, in which you fill in
> a form by filling it out and in which, an alarm goes off by going on.
>                   English was invented by people, not computers, and it
reflects the creativity of the human race,
> which, of course, is not a race at all. That is why, when the stars are
out, they are visible, but when the lights are
> out, they are invisible.
>
>
>                    P.S. - Why doesn't "Buick" rhyme with "quick"?

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 23 19:06:37 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:06:37 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.23 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUL.2004.120637.0700.>

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From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.22 (12) [E]


From: Gustaaf van Moorsel <gvanmoor at aoc.nrao.edu>
Subject: Etymology

My brother, visiting me from the Netherlands, brought with him
a welcome supply of stroopwafels, some of which I distributed
here among friends who I know appreciate this delicacy. One
of them replied with "thanks for the siroopwafels", using the
word "siroop" rather than "stroop". And yes, on the package
it clearly does say "siroopwafels" > syrup waffles, although I
don't think anybody uses that word in actual speech.

So, what is the etymology of 'stroop'? Is it somehow derived
from 'siroop', and if so, how does an 'i' become a 't'? Or
does it a have derivation of its own? Do other lowland
languages have cognates of 'stroop' (= cane sugar syrup)?

Gustaaf

----------
Beste Luc,

Time and again I am astonished to notice (in various publications, including
the website  you mentioned below) that no mention is made of the use of the
word 'spinnenkop' in East-Brabant (particularly in Getelands)  in the sole
meaning of "spiderweb".  In these dialects a spider is called 'spin'.

Kind greetings,

Roger Hondshoven

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Roger:

> In these dialects a spider is called 'spin'.

As in Lowlands Saxon (Low German): _spin_ (<Spinn> [spI.n], cf. German
_Spinne_).  "Cobweb" is _spinnenweb_, _spinnenweeb_,  _spinnenweev'_,
_spinnengeweev'_, etc. (German _Spinnengewebe_).

Groetjes,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 23 21:22:35 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:22:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.23 (07) [D/E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUL.2004.142235.0700.>

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From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: Etymology

Hello all Lowlanders,

In East-Brabant (Getelands) we have a  (perhaps moribund) word: 'strampen'
(practically exclusively used in the plural), meaning "leather leg-guard,
used by army officers (in previous times) and by hunters". Does anyone else
know this word? And does anyone have a clue as to the origin of this word.
Is it related to 'stram' ("stiff, rigid")?

Kind regards,

Roger Hondshoven

----------

From: Gustaaf van Moorsel <gvanmoor at aoc.nrao.edu>
Subject: Etymology

Roger:

Stephan Lemaitre (Bouchonlemaitre at aol.com <Bouchonlemaitre at aol.com>)
schreef:

 >Beste Gustaaf,
 >in het westvlaams zegt men niet "stroop" maar enkel "siroop",wat
 >dichter staat bij het oorspronkelijke "sirupus" (middeleeuws
 >latijn afkomstig van het arabisch "charab").
 >Hoe het komt dat men in het noorden begonnen is met stroop te zeggen,
 >zou ik ook wel eens willen weten.
 >Groetjes aan allen,
 >stephan lemaitre

In het Noord-nederlands bestaat 'siroop' ook nog steeds,
maar is daar iets was uitgeschonken kan worden en dan
vaak aangelengd met water, zoals 'limonadesiroop' of
'hoestsiroop'.

'Stroop' is veel moeilijker te schenken (vandaar het af-
geleide woord 'stroperig' -> 'viscous'), bijvoorbeeld
'appelstroop'.  Zonder voorvoegsel is 'stroop' hetzelfde
als rietsuikerstroop, en wordt gebruikt in klassieke
Nederlandse gerechten als pannekoeken en karnemelkse pap.
Er is nu zelfs een dunnere variant die wel makkelijk uit-
schenkt, en dan ook 'schenkstroop' heet'.

Gustaaf

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 23 21:32:40 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:32:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.23 (08) [E/N]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUL.2004.143240.0700.>

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From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: "Language use" (N/E)

Tom (we'd say Term),

Check oot thi Northumbrian/Geordie t-shorts, wi' thi
wards 'canny' ind 'alreet', which wor 'aal thi gan' ih
yeor agan.

Check out the Northumbrian/Geordie t-shirts with the
words 'canny' and 'alreet', which were 'all the go' a
year back.

Keep ahaad,

Glenn

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language use

Glenn:

> Check oot thi Northumbrian/Geordie t-shorts, wi' thi
> wards 'canny' ind 'alreet', which wor 'aal thi gan' ih
> yeor agan.

Ind thi meanin o thi wards, Glenn?  "Great" ind "All right"?

> Check out the Northumbrian/Geordie t-shirts with the
> words 'canny' and 'alreet', which were 'all the go' a
> year back.

And the meaning of the words, Glenn?  "Great" and "All right"?

Keep ahaad!
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 23 21:39:32 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:39:32 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Levity" 2004.07.23 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUL.2004.143932.0700.>

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From: sam s claire <gamlhs at juno.com>
Subject: LL-L "Levity" 2004.07.23 (05) [E]

Ben: Is it not odd that we do not make a "mental double take" when we
make these utterances daily?  Language is not logical, but it works.  Sam

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Levity

Sam,

Although I don't as a rule endorse mass mailings, I have to differ with what
you say above.  Language itself is pretty darn logical and regular.  It tend
to be our (usually set-in-the-way) methods of rendering language graphically
that leave much to be desired in the logics and regularity departments.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 23 22:23:55 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:23:55 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2004.07.23 (10) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUL.2004.152355.0700.>

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From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Identity

Nice one Ron - on the Northumbrian definition. Is that
quote about Northumbrian's having a 'shibboleth of the
tongue' or something because no one can understand the
language? I have a 1930s US dictionary which says:

'Northumbrian - of or pertaining to the ancient
Anglian Kingdom of Northumbria...a native or
inhabitant of the ancient kingdom of Northumbria (or
modern county of Northumberland). The Anglo-Saxon
dialect spoken in ancient Northumbria (and modern
county).'

Tek id easy,
Glenn

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Identity

Thanks, Glenn.

I particularly like this one:

> "?e Flemmynges ?at wone? in ?e weste side of Wales haue? ileft her
> straunge speche and speke? Saxonliche inow." [1387]

If I understand it correctly, it's "The Flemings that live in Western Wales
have abandoned their foreign speech and speak Saxon (= English) now."

This seems to tally nicely with reports that Flemings first settled in Wales
and later moved to Scotland, hence the surnames Fleming, Welsh and Walsh
given to Scots of Flemish background.  It also tells us that they had
adopted English rather than Welsh as their language.  This dates these
events somewhat earlier than I had assumed.

> "But ye Flemmyngis, yf ye be not wrothe, The grete substaunce of youre
> cloothe..ye make hit of oure Englissh wolle." [1450-1500]

> What hath thenne Flaundres, be Flemmynges leffe or lothe, But a lytell
> madere and Flemmyshe cloothe? [1450-1500]

If I understand it correctly, it's

"You Flemings, if you do not mind, most of your cloth (clothes?) you make of
English wool."

"What then does Flanders have -- Flemings ... like them or leave them --
than a bit of (madder =) dye and a bit of cloth?"

This sounds to me like there was a bit too much trade competition for our
dear Englishmen, a bit of jealousy about the fine, widely coveted fabrics
and clothes the Flemish Johnnie-come-lately's produced.  The tenor seems to
be, "All right, so they make better duds, but ... ugh!"  Fun!

This one gives a nice bit of info for the time:

> "Frisia [L Frisia, Frigia] is a lond vppon ?e clyue of ?e west occean, and
> bygynne? in ?e sou? side from ?e Ryne, and ende? at ?e see of Denmark."
> [1387]

"Frisia [L Frisia, Frigia] is a land situated at the North Sea shore,
beginning south of the Rhine and ending at the Danish coast."

> "He..lete calle ?e toune Berwik vp Twede, and ?ere ?ai duellede..?ai went
> ouere ?e see into Irland and brou3t with ham Wymmen..but ?e men cou?e
nou3t
> vnderstonde ?e langage ne ?e speche of ?e wymmen, ney?er ?e wymmen of ?e
> men, and ?erefore ?ai speken to-gederes as scottes [F sootz]." [1400]

"He had the town named Berwick upon Tweed, and there they lived ... They
went across the sea into Ireland and brought with them women ... but the men
could understand neither the language nor the speech of the women, neither
the women of the men, and they therefore communicated in Scottish."

> "Wee in Braban bye, Flaundres and Seland, more of marchaundy..then done
all
> other nacions..The marchaundry of Brabane and Selande Be madre and woade."
> [1450-1500]

"We in Brabant, Flanders and Zeeland buy more merchandise ... than do all
other nations ... The merchandise of Brabant and Zeeland being madder[1] and
woad[2]."

[1] madder: _Rubia tinctorum _, the roots of which yield reddish-purple dye
[2] woad: _Isatis tinctoria_, a plant from which blue dye was made prior to
the use of indigo

I love reading those original texts.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 23 22:47:16 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:47:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.23 (11) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUL.2004.154716.0700.>

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From: Hugo Zweep <hugo.zweep at valuersillawarra.com.au>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.23 (02) [E]

I notice the word "ete petete" below, describing aspiring Hamburgers.

Can anyone tell me more about that. My mother used to call one of my
daughters a "hitte petitt" meaning she was bright, on the ball but in your
face. That would have come from north east Groningen.

Geuko Zweep

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hoi, Hugo!

We use this _ete petete_ quite a bit.  It denotes the quality of being
fastidious, especially of women.  I wish I knew its origin for sure.  I
suspect it's French, probably containing _petit(e)_ 'small'.  I also suspect
that the name of Flensburg's stereotypical _Petuh-Tanten_ has something to
do with it, those whose name serves in the name _Petutantendeutsch_ (or
_Petuh-Tanten-Deutsch_), a type of Missingsch based on the local,
Jutish-influenced Lowlands Saxon (Low German) dialect.  (This dialect uses
some archaic LS expressions, and, as in Jutish and Danish, it pronounces /s/
consistently as [s], not as [z].)

In my private lingo I describe such women as being "petite about
themselves."  This is based on something a TV show contestant said many
years ago.  He was asked how he liked his women, and he wanted to sound
overly educated but was too creative in the process, so he said he liked his
future bride to be "petite about herself."  I think he meant something like
"take care of herself."  This stuck with me ...  (For those of you who
aren't familiar with it, in English "petite" usually refers to a woman's
small body or clothes size.)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Jul 24 00:20:03 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:20:03 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Levity" 2004.07.23 (12) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUL.2004.172003.0700.>

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From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Levity" 2004.07.23 (09) [E]

R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> wrote:
 >
>  Language itself is pretty darn logical and regular.  It tend
> to be our (usually set-in-the-way) methods of rendering language
graphically
> that leave much to be desired in the logics and regularity departments.
>
I second that. I for one think it's possible to, sort of, mathematically
describe most, if not all, natural languages. I even think it's possible
to procedure correct computer translations of most or all written texts,
if one ever finds out how to correctly, mathematically, logically
describe a language.

grooten,
Henry

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Jul 24 00:22:46 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:22:46 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.23 (13) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUL.2004.172246.0700.>

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From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.23


Leve Laaglanders,

Referring to Gustaaf van Moorsel's enticing question regarding blackstrap
molasses and the difference between Dutch/Flemish "siroop" and "stroop",
here a few amateurish thoughts:

Received wisdom has it that the "Strap" in "Blackstrap Molasses" derives
from Dutch "stroop". Inasmuch as this is the original question, we have a
circular situation. Where I grew up (Appalachian Mountains), blackstrap
molasses was the last, very last, juice that could be squeezed out of
sorghum or sugar cane, whichever one was available at the time. It was
indeed thick, dark and viscous.

Dictionaries inform us that Blackstrap is the "...thick, dark residue liquid
food that remains after the last extraction of sugar from cane or sorghum."
My grandfather, who made molasses yearly, told me that because blackstrap
comes from the third and final boiling of cane, and is actually the bottom,
last dregs of the barrel, he thought that the Dutch, in processing cane in
Guyana, Surinam and the Antilles (Leeward Islands) came into frequent
contact with English-speaking colonials who referred to blackstrap as the
"last drop" of the cane. The "last drop" became "laatste drop", then
shortened or elided to "stroop". Thus, Blackstrap should be "Black last
drop", or Black-stroop.

This might explain, as well, why the difference between "siroop" and
"stroop" begins with relative viscosity and dark umber hue.

Does that make everything chiaroscuro?

Beste groete,

Arthur Jones

----------

From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.23 [11]E


Goedenavond Ron, Geuko, un alle:

"Etepetete" is a phrase that brings back ancient music to me. When a callow
youth, I studied at the University of Bonn on a Rotary Fellowship. At a
student party, I heard the phrase "etepetete" and asked what it meant.

The answer was indeed "excessively fastidious". To me, many Rhenish appeared
to be fastidious, although perhaps less so than the average Zuercher.

Another local added that the word should really be "etepletete" to conform
to Boennsch and Koelsch dialects that feature a trusive "l" on occasion,
viz., "Meine Schwester flickt bei den Belgiern". The next person then asks,
"Sie flickt? Ja Schloen!"

Ciao.

Arthur Jones

----------

From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.23 (11) [E]

Hugo Zweep <hugo.zweep at valuersillawarra.com.au> wrote:
>
> I notice the word "ete petete" below, describing aspiring Hamburgers.
>
> Can anyone tell me more about that. My mother used to call one of my
> daughters a "hitte petitt" meaning she was bright, on the ball but in your
> face. That would have come from north east Groningen.
>
The word hittepetit is used in other parts of the Netherlands as well.
As far as I know, most people in the Netherlands will know what a
hittepetit is. In my personal experience it refers to a girl which a
strong personal opinion, albeit a little stuck up. I asked my girlfriend
too, and she says she thinks of a hittepetit as a girl preoccupied with
herself, always busy wearing the right make-up, carrying a handbag, etc.

Henry

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Jul 24 15:08:20 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 08:08:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.24 (01) [E/Walloon]
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUL.2004.080820.0700.>

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: Resources

The file "santi.pdf", linked to in the message below:

---quoted-- Original Message -----
From: "L. Mahin" <lucyin at walon.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 2:41 AM
Subject: [viker] [Fwd: ?n ovraedje d' unif e catalan]
> Bondjo?,
> http://www.udl.es/dept/filcat/docs/santi.pdf
> On studiaedje so les ptits lingaedjes d' Urope;
> emey zels li walon b?n seur.
> (djel a metou dins les h?rd?yes di l' aberteke)
--- end quote ---

basically deals with variants of romance languages, but includes also two
pages on Scots.

Links for Scots referred to in that text:

a little text about Shetlandic:
http://www.geocities.com/jmtait/zet/shetrep.htm

http://www.scots-online.org/airtins/index.htm
gives a long list of other URLs
http://www.scots-online.org/organisations/index.htm
gives quite some adresses

The other URLs, referred to, do not work:
http://www.scots-online.org/grammar/pages/whits.htm
http://www.dickalba.demon.co.uk/songs/texts/scots.htm
http://www.lallans.co.uk/castillian.html
or are reportedly under construction
http://www.lallans.co.uk/

Regards,
Roger

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Jul 24 15:10:40 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 08:10:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Levity" 2004.07.24 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUL.2004.081040.0700.>

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From: sam s claire <gamlhs at juno.com>
Subject: LL-L "Levity" 2004.07.23 (09) [E]

Ron: Still do not think language (structure) is all that logical.  Our
thoughts we impart are logical (hopefully), whereas the systems we use to
do so are not so regular and rational, etc.  How did we come up with
strong and weak verbs?    Language, however, is whatever works.  Sam

----------

From: Thomas <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Levity" 2004.07.23 (12) [E]

R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> wrote:
 >
>> Language itself is pretty darn logical and regular.  It tend
>> to be our (usually set-in-the-way) methods of rendering language
> graphically
>> that leave much to be desired in the logics and regularity departments.

That's why I advocate Scots Gaelic being written in Cyrillic where the
actual sounds could be pronounced without trauma. Naturally nobody accepts
this sensible move even though I'd learn the language if I knew how the
words were pronounced. :-)
Regards
Tom
Tom Mc Rae PSOC
Brisbane Australia
"The masonnis suld mak housis stark and rude,
To keep the pepill frome the stormes strang,
And he that fals, the craft it gois all wrang."
>>From 15th century Scots Poem 'The Buke of the Chess'

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Jul 24 15:29:16 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 08:29:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.24 (03) [A/E]
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUL.2004.082916.0700.>

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From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Etymology

Good Morning Lowlanders!

Roger Hondshoven said:

"In East-Brabant (Getelands) we have a  (perhaps moribund) word:
'strampen' (practically exclusively used in the plural), meaning "leather
leg-guard,used by army officers (in previous times) and by hunters". Does
anyone else know this word? And does anyone have a clue as to the origin of
this word.Is it related to 'stram' ("stiff, rigid")?"

Is it not likely that this word _strampen_ is a form of the (High) German
word _Str?mpfe_, plural of _Strumpf_, the modern meaning of which is
'stocking'. The Low Saxon form is, I believe (correct me here, Ron)
_strump_. The German word has undergone a complicated development, and it
seems that it originally meant a garment covering the entire trunk (STRUMPF)
of the body. Originally the word seems to have been almost identical to
_Stumpf_ (English _stump_). This is an interesting semantic connection,
since the English word _stocking_ must be from _stock_.

There could also perhaps be a connection with Low German _strampen_, in the
sense of 'stamping on the ground' : German _strampfen_, alongside
_stampfen_.

John Duckworth
Preston, UK

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Etymology

Beste li?glanners,

Here in my neck of the woods, we still say "saroop" and not "siroop" or
"stroop". So I looked up what the origin of the word is, and that happens to
be an Arabic word for "drink", namely "?ar?b". Spanish has "jarope, xarope"
and so it didn't surprise me at all that the Spanish Netherlands inherited
this word directly from their former occupants, rather than by means of
French or Latin. I can imagine that the initial syllable got stressed less
and less over time, resulting in "seroop", "serope" (Western Flemish). By
the way, this also happened in another Romance loan word like "begozje" (B)
("nasty sod" (E)), which was derived from French "bagage". Finally it wore
down to "s-roop", and that's when some people (the North even had "language
archtitects" in the past!) will have added a _t_ in order to make it more
conform to all the other Dutch words starting with _str_.

Which easily brings me to "strampen", that (Eastern) Brabantish word for
gaiters ("getten" (B) < French "gu?tre", perhaps cognate with "wrist" (E)).
They come in more than one flavor Roger, sometimes "strampen", "strompen",
"strumpen" (ablaut)...and yes, they are the same as German "Str?mpfe".
"Strumpf" used to be a word for a "tree-stump", but came into use for
clothing, when "Hosen" got split in half in the 16th century. "Hosen" was
the original word for pants covering everything from waist to ankle, but
when the part below the knee got cut off, the upper part retained the old
word, and the lower part was considered like residue, like a stump.

Besides, Roger, J. Van Keymeulen does write in the etymological chapter of
"Spin":

"...Spinnekop kan in een aantal Brabantse dialecten nog altijd zowel het
spinnenweb als de spin zelf benoemen (in Noord-Brabant en in westelijk
Vlaams-Brabant)..." (J. Van Keymeylen)

But he does indeed not analyze the Getelands-situation any further. Let's
keep in mind that dialects in Western Belgium (former County of Flanders)
have always been studied at the university of Ghent (Van Keymeulen among
others), whereas the Eastern part (former Duchy of Brabant) was often taken
care of by the university of Nijmegen.

Wikipedia links ete-petete with "c'?tait peut-?tre": Van Dale considers
"hittepetit" a reduplication of French "petite" (like "hottemetoot") ...and
I had to think of "Reet-Petite, the finest girl..." *s*. Seems that a lot of
affection is involved here.

When I read what Prof. Weijnen wrote about "oat", the word still being alive
in many parts of coastal Belgium and the Netherlands (as "oot", "aat",
"aot"), I was quite amazed, because he stated: "If the Dutch word is of
British descent, it could be a Pictish relict". Wow, I thought at first. But
then I discovered that: "They (The Picts) are believed to have arrived in
Scotland from the Continent about 1000 bc and in Ireland from Scotland about
ad200."
So the Picts were apparently once living on the continent. Anybody have any
idea why they left? Celtic expansion (radiating from northeastern France)???
I doubt it, because "aot" for example is in use in the northeastern part of
the Netherlands, and I don't think there has ever been any Celtic influence
over there...or the Continental Picts must have have been a very close-knit
society  that decided to leave collectively because their southern neighbors
were pushed to the edge (litterally). Bit like what happened to the
Continental Celts a thousand years later (under Roman pressure).

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: Liza du Plooy <lizaduplooy at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.22 (07) [E]

Goeienaand almal.

Verskoon my as een van die ander afrikaans-sprekendes al klaar hierdie vraag
beantwoord het.

Troy wrote:
Standard Dutch has "spin" for "spider", but "spinnekop" is fairly widely
used I believe, at least in the north of Flanders (the Kempen). Is it used
elsewhere in Flanders and/or the Netherlands?

A spider is also called "spinnekop" in Afrikaans, and a spiderweb a
"spinnerak". That's all I will say on the subject since spiders give me the
creeps.

Beste groete
Liza du Plooy

----------

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.23 (13) [E]

> Received wisdom has it that the "Strap" in "Blackstrap Molasses" derives
> from Dutch "stroop".

My Dutch ex-husband once got homesick (living in Bavaria) and tried to make
his own stroopwafels. He didn't have the right kind of sirup, so instead he
used a can of black molasses that some American friends had left behind with
us.

It was horrbible - bitter and nasty - we had to throw it all away. So be
warned, everybody!

By the way, it's not only that it's spelled "siroop" and pronounced
"stroop" - it's also officially spelled "-wafelen" and spoken "-wafels"!
Similarly, the written plural for potatoes in Dutch is "aardappelen", while
one says "aardappels". I can't think of any other language where the written
plural is disregarded and replaced by a different form in the spoken
language.

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: Wim <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" stroopwafels recepy2004.07.23 (07) [D/E]

>>From wim verdoold:  wkv at home.nl

Hi,

Here is the recipe for stroopwafels, I found it on a web page.

Stroopwafels:

 Ingredients

waffles (12 pieces): Ingredients syrup:
 - 300g caster sugar
- 450g butter
- 3 eggs
- 3 sp milk
- 600g flour
- cinnamon
- salt  - 600g cane-sugar syrup
- 300g butter

 Preparation
Mix the sugar with the eggs, milk, flower, cinnamon, salt and the butter
sliced in pieces. Make 12 small balls.
Preheat the waffle iron. Squeeze a paste ball in the iron. Bake the
waffle in about 30 seconds.
Cut the waffle in two thin waffles and spread the waffle with the mix of
syrup and butter.
Bon appetite!

 Wim.

----------

From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.23 (13) [E]

In Westflemish we know the word "netebuck"describing a vivid mostly small or
female person, who is allways alert en jealous.
I presume the element "nete" might be related to the "hitte".
"Nete"however is nwon as the egg of a bug.
"Buck" is allmost certainly the male goat (sometimes also denoted as a
sexual very active person in general.....)

Denis Dujardin
Westflanders

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Jul 24 23:43:33 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 16:43:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language structure" 2004.07.24 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUL.2004.164333.0700.>

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: "Levity" [E]

> From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Levity" 2004.07.23 (09) [E]
>
> R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> wrote:
>  >
> >  Language itself is pretty darn logical and regular.  It tend
> > to be our (usually set-in-the-way) methods of rendering language
> graphically
> > that leave much to be desired in the logics and regularity departments.
> >
> I second that. I for one think it's possible to, sort of, mathematically
> describe most, if not all, natural languages. I even think it's possible
> to procedure correct computer translations of most or all written texts,
> if one ever finds out how to correctly, mathematically, logically
> describe a language.

If you listen to people speaking in a native, unschooled language (for
example, s Scots speaker who was taught in English speaking their native
Scots), you'll discover that language is far from regular. I would say that
it's a bit of a circular argument to claim that languages are regular.
Regularised language may be prescribed in schools, they might be written
down in a regularised fashion in books, but that doesn't tell us much about
what languages are really like "in the wild".

Some examples of irregularities in spoken languages are:

    o    cutoff point - a speaker sometimes stops speaking mid-sentence
because they feel the listener has grasped their meaning;

    o    grammatical variation - "untrained" grammar is often tolerant of
variation in inflections, word order &c that would be considered mistakes in
regularised forms of the languages;

    o    semantic reversal - a person often uses vocabulary or grammar that
implies the opposite of what he really means.

    o    noises with semantic intent - "Aha! Eh... weeeeell oooooooh!
d'oh..."

An example of semantic reversal resulting from syntax is in the song "Drink
to me only":

"If I could of Jove's nectar sup,
"I would not change for thine."

Of course, he means "I _would_ change for thine" (unless he wants a
clout!) - but most people get the intended meaning and don't even notice
what was actually said. I often notice this sort of thing in speech in
English, including my own speech - which makes me wonder just how much of it
goes on that I don't notice!

Semantic reversal can be simply a matter of choice of vocabulary, though,
for example, in Scots:

"lairn" might mean "teach" or "learn".
"listen" might mean "listen" or "make a sound";
"herken" might mean "listen carefully" or "whisper";
"dout" might mean "doubt" or "believe";

and so on.

Similarly, you hear people saying in English "You've got your trousers
hanging out" for "You've got your shirt hanging out" &c.

All this reflects the fact that language doesn't work in isolation - there's
always a considerable layer of interpretation involved. This is perhaps just
as true, though in a different way, of written language. Some important
semantic elements such as emphasis, gesture, body language and intonation
are missing from written languages and often the writer depends on schooling
or experience in somehow suggesting these within the confines of linear
text. But it's a well-known principle in creative writing that different
readers will put a different interpretation on your words and there comes a
point where you can't fight this.

The idea of expressing a language mathematically - well OK, as long as your
mathematics is tolerant of irregularities in the structure. But translating
mathematically as a result of a mathematical description of the written
language? No, because language is only part of what goes into making the
meaning of a communication.

All this is even before we get into the importance of metaphor in spoken
language...!

I often think that the current state of descriptive linguistics is too
simplistic, expressing what are actually continuous phenomena as if they
were discrete. For example, linguists seem to use the IPA rather blindly and
will discuss voicing and devoicing but seem little interested in _how much_
voicing is involved. Similarly in grammar, rules such as "have" versus "has"
are prescribed (either one or the other is right in each case) without any
attempt to record the distribution of usage when speakers, often even the
same speaker, vary between "has" and "have" in the same grammatical context.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Jul 25 16:26:18 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:26:18 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Oral tradition" 2004.07.25 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.25.JUL.2004.092618.0700.>

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Oral tradition

Beste li?glanners,

Those of you that are fond of Belgian folkloric tales, may be interested in
this website:

http://www.volksverhalenbank.be/

So far only the Limburgish part is ready, but soon the West-Flemish section
should be operational too.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Jul 25 16:32:46 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:32:46 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.25 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.25.JUL.2004.093246.0700.>

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From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.24 (03) [A/E]

Hi John,

Thank you so much for your excellent suggestion. Stupid of me not to think
of German 'Strumpf'.

Best regards,

Roger Hondshoven

----------

From: Heinrich Becker <heinrich.becker at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.23 (06) [E]

> In M?nsterl?nder Platt we use the word ; Spinnk?ppe like people do on
> the other side
> of the Dutch border. This includes the webs too: doar hangt Spinnk?ppe.
> ----------------------------------

      In similar way the word "Stroop" has been used for sugar beet
treacle = R?benkraut or
      applesyrup = Appelkraut. This expression is unfortunately dieing
 out even in M?nsterl?nder Platt.

> Greetings
> Heinrich Becker

----------

From: Heinrich Becker <heinrich.becker at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.23 (11) [E]

Hi Reinhard,

I'm sorry to correct you. The Flensburg expression "Petuhtante" has
nothing to do with "etepetete".

The expression "Petuhtante" is derived  from  French word "par tout"(
ticket)  = for all. These were the
 ladies on a coffee trip steamer in Flensburg fjord who bought a ticket
for all occasions.
Their language was influenced in the way you discribed.

"Etepetete" is suspucted to be invented in Mecklenburg, used predominantly
in North Germany but spread all over German speaking parts in Europe even in
Kronstadt German ( Sibiu) Romania with the meaning "snobbish ".

Heinrich Becker

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks a lot for clearing that up, Heinrich.

> "Etepetete" is suspucted to be invented in Mecklenburg, used predominantly
> in North Germany but spread all over German speaking parts in Europe even
> in Kronstadt German ( Sibiu) Romania with the meaning "snobbish ".

We don't use it in the sense of "snobbish," though, more in the sense of
"overly fastidious."

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Jul 25 16:34:43 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:34:43 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.25 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.25.JUL.2004.093443.0700.>

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From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language structure" 2004.07.24 (04) [E]

Interesting message, Sandy, and I tend to agree with you.  But one thing you
said (quoted below) threw me:

> From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
> Subject: "Levity" [E]
>
> An example of semantic reversal resulting from syntax is in the song
> "Drink
> to me only":
>
> "If I could of Jove's nectar sup,
> "I would not change for thine."
>
> Of course, he means "I _would_ change for thine" (unless he wants a
> clout!) - but most people get the intended meaning and don't even notice
> what was actually said.

I think what was said here is exactly what was meant. I read it as: if
Jove's nectar were offered to me to drink, I would not take it in exchange
for your nectar (which I already have).

That said, I can think of a few other examples:

> I often notice this sort of thing in speech in
> English, including my own speech - which makes me wonder just how much of
> it
> goes on that I don't notice!
>
> Semantic reversal can be simply a matter of choice of vocabulary, though,
> for example, in Scots:
>
> "lairn" might mean "teach" or "learn".
> "listen" might mean "listen" or "make a sound";
> "herken" might mean "listen carefully" or "whisper";
> "dout" might mean "doubt" or "believe";
>
> and so on.
>
> Similarly, you hear people saying in English "You've got your trousers
> hanging out" for "You've got your shirt hanging out" &c.

I've often thought it odd that we say things like "That will teach you to be
late" when we mean "That will teach you not to be late."

I've also noted that a lot of people say "I could care less" (usually with
stress on "care") when they mean "I couldn't care less".  Even though
everyone knows that it means that the person doesn't care much at all, it
still irks me to hear it the "wrong" way.

Then there's "head over heels" (isn't your head normally over your heels?).

Kevin Caldwell (kcaldwell31 at comcast.net)

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sun Jul 25 16:35:40 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:35:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language structure" 2004.07.25 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.25.JUL.2004.093540.0700.>

Sorry. This went out under the wrong heading. RFH
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From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language structure" 2004.07.24 (04) [E]

Interesting message, Sandy, and I tend to agree with you.  But one thing you
said (quoted below) threw me:

> From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
> Subject: "Levity" [E]
>
> An example of semantic reversal resulting from syntax is in the song
> "Drink
> to me only":
>
> "If I could of Jove's nectar sup,
> "I would not change for thine."
>
> Of course, he means "I _would_ change for thine" (unless he wants a
> clout!) - but most people get the intended meaning and don't even notice
> what was actually said.

I think what was said here is exactly what was meant. I read it as: if
Jove's nectar were offered to me to drink, I would not take it in exchange
for your nectar (which I already have).

That said, I can think of a few other examples:

> I often notice this sort of thing in speech in
> English, including my own speech - which makes me wonder just how much of
> it
> goes on that I don't notice!
>
> Semantic reversal can be simply a matter of choice of vocabulary, though,
> for example, in Scots:
>
> "lairn" might mean "teach" or "learn".
> "listen" might mean "listen" or "make a sound";
> "herken" might mean "listen carefully" or "whisper";
> "dout" might mean "doubt" or "believe";
>
> and so on.
>
> Similarly, you hear people saying in English "You've got your trousers
> hanging out" for "You've got your shirt hanging out" &c.

I've often thought it odd that we say things like "That will teach you to be
late" when we mean "That will teach you not to be late."

I've also noted that a lot of people say "I could care less" (usually with
stress on "care") when they mean "I couldn't care less".  Even though
everyone knows that it means that the person doesn't care much at all, it
still irks me to hear it the "wrong" way.

Then there's "head over heels" (isn't your head normally over your heels?).

Kevin Caldwell (kcaldwell31 at comcast.net)

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul 26 12:46:47 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:46:47 +0200
Subject: LL-L "Oral tradition" 2004.07.26 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUL.2004.144647.0200.>

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Van: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Datum: Zo, 25 juli, 2004 6:51 pm

Hey Luc, that is a super site!

denis dujardin



Luc wrote:

>Beste li?glanners,
>
>Those of you that are fond of Belgian folkloric tales, may be
>interested in this website:
>
>http://www.volksverhalenbank.be/
>
>So far only the Limburgish part is ready, but soon the West-Flemish
>section should be operational too.
>
>Kind greetings,
>
>Luc Hellinckx

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul 26 12:48:16 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:48:16 +0200
Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2004.07.26 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUL.2004.144816.0200.>

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Van: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Datum: Zo, 25 juli, 2004 3:53 pm

Mark Dreyer asks

> (research student in archaeology, asking questions about how people
> identified themselves as 'Dutch' outside of the Low Countries in the
> 1600s and 1700s)

Is this (above) a serious statement? If so, you are about to be so
snowed under!

and In message <00ef01c46ffc$fcd49b10$1c0d5f80 at dental.washington.edu>,
Lowlands-L <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net> writes
>From: HALLS Haeng-Cho <zzhhalls at student.uq.edu.au>
>Subject:
says
>
>Your research subject caught my eye, Pat. I would be most interested to
> know how that  is faring :)
>
Thank you both for asking.  Yes, I'm serious.  I am working on the use
and meaning of wall anchors (muurankeren), and comparing this building
technique to other ways people identified themselves, or others as being
Dutch.  I'm particularly interested in the use of material culture in
such identification.

I am fairly well on with identifying the occurances of short wall
anchors around the world (and have lots of animated maps, showing how
different forms spread, such as the S-shaped ones which predominate more
in Wallonie and France, and then go across to Canada).  I am about to
start sorting out the comparative material, which includes distinctive
ceramic assemblages, marbles, and distinctive tools.  I'm working both
from archaeologically excavated material and from inventories.

I'm particularly lacking contacts/information in Brazil, Taiwan, Africa
outside South Africa, and the Middle East.

With best wishes,

Pat


--
Pat Reynolds
pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk
   "It might look a bit messy now,
                    but just you come back in 500 years time"
   (T. Pratchett)


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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul 26 12:52:56 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:52:56 +0200
Subject: LL-L "Language structure" 2004.07.26 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUL.2004.145256.0200.>

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Onderwerp: Language structure
Van: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>

>I've often thought it odd that we say things like "That will teach you
> to be late" when we mean "That will teach you not to be late."
>
>I've also noted that a lot of people say "I could care less" (usually
> with stress on "care") when they mean "I couldn't care less".  Even
> though everyone knows that it means that the person doesn't care much
> at all, it still irks me to hear it the "wrong" way.
>
>Then there's "head over heels" (isn't your head normally over your
> heels?).
>
>Kevin Caldwell (kcaldwell31 at comcast.net)
>
>


How about all those 'I don't think' expressions

'I don't think she knows'  rather than 'I think she doesn't know'

we negate the 'thinking' which we are quite obviously doing instead of
the 'knowing'

David Barrow


---------------------


From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: "Language structure" [E]

> From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Language structure" 2004.07.24 (04) [E]
>
> > From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
> > Subject: "Levity" [E]
> >
> > "If I could of Jove's nectar sup,
> > "I would not change for thine."
> >
> I think what was said here is exactly what was meant. I read it as: if
> Jove's nectar were offered to me to drink, I would not take it in
> exchange for your nectar (which I already have).

I see what you mean. Is the problem here really ambiguity? You could
assume that  he has her er... nectar?? or you could assume from the
first line that he's able to sup Jove's and... what a load of rubbish it
is really, isn't it?!!

Of course it does illustrate that you can get away with a lot of
ambiguity in language itself and depend on the reader's/listener's
common sense to interpret it as intended.

> I've often thought it odd that we say things like "That will teach you
> to be late" when we mean "That will teach you not to be late."
>
> I've also noted that a lot of people say "I could care less" (usually
> with stress on "care") when they mean "I couldn't care less".  Even
> though everyone knows that it means that the person doesn't care much
> at all, it still irks me to hear it the "wrong" way.
>
> Then there's "head over heels" (isn't your head normally over your
> heels?).

An interesting phrase in Scots is "It's a maiter" meaning "It's no
matter". According to the SND this is because "It's a maiter" is a
sawn-off version of "It's a matter of no importance".

I think sometimes when we see a writer with a real "ear" for the way
people speak we can really see how illogical language can be. Take David
Rorie's Poem "The Picnic", for example:

Eh!  Sic langwidge!
Onybody hearin' ye 'ull hae a bonny tale to tell
An you a jined member o the Kirk!
Think black burnin' shame o yersel!
Wi your mou fou o sangwidge,
I won'er it disna choke ye,
Ye ill-tongued stirk!
An a' this tirravee
Ower a drappie o bilin' watter on your taes!
Keep me!
Dinna provoke ye?
Did onybody ever hear the like o't a' their livin' days!
Ye hae a guid neck!
Wi twa mile o sand to pit your muckle feet on
What gart ye stick ane o them
In aneth the stroup o the kettle?
An what sorra else did ye expeck?

You an your fit!
They're a perfeck scunner-
Baith the twa o them,
Ay, an haes been ever sin I kent ye.
A daecent wumman canna get moved at her ain chimblay-cheek,
An sma' won'er!
Hoo aften hae I telt ye I couldna get anent ye
An you aye lollopin' thae dagont feet o yours on the fender?
I whiles wish ye haed widden legs,
They wadna be sae tender
An they wad match your heid better-
Ay, wad they, fegs,
An hae saved ye happin' aboot the noo
Like a craw wi a sair inside.
Sit doon, man!  See,
A' the fowk 'ull think ye're fou-
Here's your cuppie o tea!

Oho!  Ye're no gaun to bide?
Ye've haed a' the tea ye're wantin'?
An ye're no seekin' ony mair o my clatter?
Weel, awa an tak a bit paidle til yersel,
Gin ye maun be gallivantin'
Try the watter.
The sea 'ull mibbie cool your temper
An your taes as weel.

But mind ye this o't!
I've taen your meesure,
My bonny man, aince an for a',
An this is the hin'most time
I'm oot for a day's plaesur
Wi you - ay is it!
For I'll stan' nae mair o your jaw!
Eh!  Sic langwidge!
Onybody hearin' ye 'ull hae a bonny tale to tell
An you a jined member o the Kirk!
Think black burnin' shame o yersel!
Wi your mou fou o sangwidge,
I won'er it disna choke ye,
Ye ill-tongued stirk!
An a' this tirravee
Ower a drappie o bilin' watter on your taes!
Keep me!
Dinna provoke ye?
Did onybody ever hear the like o't a' their livin' days!
Ye hae a guid neck!
Wi twa mile o sand to pit your muckle feet on
What gart ye stick ane o them
In aneth the stroup o the kettle?
An what sorra else did ye expeck?

Comments:

Eh!  Sic langwidge!

 - "language" is often used to mean "swearing".

Onybody hearin' ye 'ull hae a bonny tale to tell

 - she means the tale _won't_ be "bonny".

An you a jined member o the Kirk!

 - I wouldn't like to think he was a falling-apart member of the church!

Keep me!

 - just one of those things people say.

Ye hae a guid neck!

 - the word "good" isn't always a compliment.

They're a perfeck scunner-

 - "perfect" used merely as an intensifier.

Ay, wad they, fegs,

 - she means "ay, they wad" but she mimics the syntax of his question.

A' the fowk 'ull think ye're fou-

 - "full", but it means "drunk".

My bonny man

 - again, "bonny" just doesn't mean that the way she uses it.

Of course some of this is irony and it's not unusual for speakers or
writers to say the opposite of what they mean and listeners or readers
are expected to understand the intended meaning anyway.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/


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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul 26 15:18:06 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:18:06 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language structure" 2004.07.26 (01) [E/S]
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUL.2004.081806.0700.>

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From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Language structure" 2004.07.25 (03) [E]

>From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
>Subject: LL-L "Language structure" 2004.07.24 (04) [E]
>
>Interesting message, Sandy, and I tend to agree with you.  But one thing
you
>said (quoted below) threw me:
>
>>From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
>>Subject: "Levity" [E]
>>
>>An example of semantic reversal resulting from syntax is in the song
>>"Drink
>>to me only":
>>
>>"If I could of Jove's nectar sup,
>>"I would not change for thine."
>>
>>Of course, he means "I _would_ change for thine" (unless he wants a
>>clout!) - but most people get the intended meaning and don't even notice
>>what was actually said.
>
>I think what was said here is exactly what was meant. I read it as: if
>Jove's nectar were offered to me to drink, I would not take it in exchange
>for your nectar (which I already have).
>
>That said, I can think of a few other examples:
>
>>I often notice this sort of thing in speech in
>>English, including my own speech - which makes me wonder just how much of
>>it
>>goes on that I don't notice!
>>
>>Semantic reversal can be simply a matter of choice of vocabulary, though,
>>for example, in Scots:
>>
>>"lairn" might mean "teach" or "learn".
>>"listen" might mean "listen" or "make a sound";
>>"herken" might mean "listen carefully" or "whisper";
>>"dout" might mean "doubt" or "believe";
>>
>>and so on.
>>
>>Similarly, you hear people saying in English "You've got your trousers
>>hanging out" for "You've got your shirt hanging out" &c.
>
>I've often thought it odd that we say things like "That will teach you to
be
>late" when we mean "That will teach you not to be late."
>
>I've also noted that a lot of people say "I could care less" (usually with
>stress on "care") when they mean "I couldn't care less".  Even though
>everyone knows that it means that the person doesn't care much at all, it
>still irks me to hear it the "wrong" way.
>
>Then there's "head over heels" (isn't your head normally over your heels?).
>
>Kevin Caldwell (kcaldwell31 at comcast.net)
>
How about all those 'I don't think' expressions

'I don't think she knows'  rather than 'I think she doesn't know'

we negate the 'thinking' which we are quite obviously doing instead of
the 'knowing'

David Barrow

----------

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: "Language structure" [E]

>
> From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Language structure" 2004.07.24 (04) [E]
>
> > From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
> > Subject: "Levity" [E]
> >
> > "If I could of Jove's nectar sup,
> > "I would not change for thine."
> >
> I think what was said here is exactly what was meant. I read it as: if
> Jove's nectar were offered to me to drink, I would not take it in exchange
> for your nectar (which I already have).

I see what you mean. Is the problem here really ambiguity? You could assume
that  he has her er... nectar?? or you could assume from the first line that
he's able to sup Jove's and... what a load of rubbish it is really, isn't
it?!!

Of course it does illustrate that you can get away with a lot of ambiguity
in language itself and depend on the reader's/listener's common sense to
interpret it as intended.

> I've often thought it odd that we say things like "That will teach you to
be
> late" when we mean "That will teach you not to be late."
>
> I've also noted that a lot of people say "I could care less" (usually with
> stress on "care") when they mean "I couldn't care less".  Even though
> everyone knows that it means that the person doesn't care much at all, it
> still irks me to hear it the "wrong" way.
>
> Then there's "head over heels" (isn't your head normally over your
heels?).

An interesting phrase in Scots is "It's a maiter" meaning "It's no matter".
According to the SND this is because "It's a maiter" is a sawn-off version
of "It's a matter of no importance".

I think sometimes when we see a writer with a real "ear" for the way people
speak we can really see how illogical language can be. Take David Rorie's
Poem "The Picnic", for example:

Eh!  Sic langwidge!
Onybody hearin' ye 'ull hae a bonny tale to tell
An you a jined member o the Kirk!
Think black burnin' shame o yersel!
Wi your mou fou o sangwidge,
I won'er it disna choke ye,
Ye ill-tongued stirk!
An a' this tirravee
Ower a drappie o bilin' watter on your taes!
Keep me!
Dinna provoke ye?
Did onybody ever hear the like o't a' their livin' days!
Ye hae a guid neck!
Wi twa mile o sand to pit your muckle feet on
What gart ye stick ane o them
In aneth the stroup o the kettle?
An what sorra else did ye expeck?

You an your fit!
They're a perfeck scunner-
Baith the twa o them,
Ay, an haes been ever sin I kent ye.
A daecent wumman canna get moved at her ain chimblay-cheek,
An sma' won'er!
Hoo aften hae I telt ye I couldna get anent ye
An you aye lollopin' thae dagont feet o yours on the fender?
I whiles wish ye haed widden legs,
They wadna be sae tender
An they wad match your heid better-
Ay, wad they, fegs,
An hae saved ye happin' aboot the noo
Like a craw wi a sair inside.
Sit doon, man!  See,
A' the fowk 'ull think ye're fou-
Here's your cuppie o tea!

Oho!  Ye're no gaun to bide?
Ye've haed a' the tea ye're wantin'?
An ye're no seekin' ony mair o my clatter?
Weel, awa an tak a bit paidle til yersel,
Gin ye maun be gallivantin'
Try the watter.
The sea 'ull mibbie cool your temper
An your taes as weel.

But mind ye this o't!
I've taen your meesure,
My bonny man, aince an for a',
An this is the hin'most time
I'm oot for a day's plaesur
Wi you - ay is it!
For I'll stan' nae mair o your jaw!
Eh!  Sic langwidge!
Onybody hearin' ye 'ull hae a bonny tale to tell
An you a jined member o the Kirk!
Think black burnin' shame o yersel!
Wi your mou fou o sangwidge,
I won'er it disna choke ye,
Ye ill-tongued stirk!
An a' this tirravee
Ower a drappie o bilin' watter on your taes!
Keep me!
Dinna provoke ye?
Did onybody ever hear the like o't a' their livin' days!
Ye hae a guid neck!
Wi twa mile o sand to pit your muckle feet on
What gart ye stick ane o them
In aneth the stroup o the kettle?
An what sorra else did ye expeck?

Comments:

Eh!  Sic langwidge!

 - "language" is often used to mean "swearing".

Onybody hearin' ye 'ull hae a bonny tale to tell

 - she means the tale _won't_ be "bonny".

An you a jined member o the Kirk!

 - I wouldn't like to think he was a falling-apart member of the church!

Keep me!

 - just one of those things people say.

Ye hae a guid neck!

 - the word "good" isn't always a compliment.

They're a perfeck scunner-

 - "perfect" used merely as an intensifier.

Ay, wad they, fegs,

 - she means "ay, they wad" but she mimics the syntax of his question.

A' the fowk 'ull think ye're fou-

 - "full", but it means "drunk".

My bonny man

 - again, "bonny" just doesn't mean that the way she uses it.

Of course some of this is irony and it's not unusual for speakers or writers
to say the opposite of what they mean and listeners or readers are expected
to understand the intended meaning anyway.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul 26 15:21:05 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:21:05 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Architecture" 2004.07.26 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUL.2004.082105.0700.>

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From: HALLS Haeng-Cho <zzhhalls at student.uq.edu.au>
Subject:

fascinating Pat. As soon as I'm at the Uni library, I'm gonna look up "wall
anchors". I've always been interested in Dutch and North Germany's old
building structures, and how they describe them. Especially their
Fachwerkh?user

----------

From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2004.07.22 (04) [E]

Mark Dreyer asks

> (research student in archaeology, asking questions about how people
> identified themselves as 'Dutch' outside of the Low Countries in the
> 1600s and 1700s)

Is this (above) a serious statement? If so, you are about to be so
snowed under!

and In message <00ef01c46ffc$fcd49b10$1c0d5f80 at dental.washington.edu>,
Lowlands-L <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net> writes
>From: HALLS Haeng-Cho <zzhhalls at student.uq.edu.au>
>Subject:
says
>
>Your research subject caught my eye, Pat. I would be most interested to
know
>how that  is faring :)
>
Thank you both for asking.  Yes, I'm serious.  I am working on the use
and meaning of wall anchors (muurankeren), and comparing this building
technique to other ways people identified themselves, or others as being
Dutch.  I'm particularly interested in the use of material culture in
such identification.

I am fairly well on with identifying the occurances of short wall
anchors around the world (and have lots of animated maps, showing how
different forms spread, such as the S-shaped ones which predominate more
in Wallonie and France, and then go across to Canada).  I am about to
start sorting out the comparative material, which includes distinctive
ceramic assemblages, marbles, and distinctive tools.  I'm working both
from archaeologically excavated material and from inventories.

I'm particularly lacking contacts/information in Brazil, Taiwan, Africa
outside South Africa, and the Middle East.

With best wishes,

Pat

--
Pat Reynolds
pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk
   "It might look a bit messy now,
                    but just you come back in 500 years time"
   (T. Pratchett)

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Mon Jul 26 15:22:29 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:22:29 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Oral tradtion" 2004.07.26 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUL.2004.082229.0700.>

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From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Oral tradition" 2004.07.25 (01) [E]

Hey Luc, that is a super site!

denis dujardin

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 27 01:35:21 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:35:21 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.26 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUL.2004.183521.0700.>

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From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: language use

Ron,

'Canny' is a word that has a multitude of meanings. It
can mean 'alright', 'good', 'nice', 'easy-going',
'steady-on/take it easy there'. It provides emphasis
when the occasion demands - 'Gan Canny', 'Go easy/look
out for yourself', 'canny bad', 'quite or very bad',
canny good (likewise), 'canny chep/blowk' 'nice chap
or bloke'  etc, etc.

'Aalreet' is 'alright' but it is also employed as a
greeting, so if you pass someone in the street you
know, you'd say: "Aalreet" and they'd say: "Aalreet or
aalreet thare".  In other words it's shorthand for
'How are you?". Some older people often say: "Whet
Cheor", directly translated as 'What Cheer', although
it is more of a statement than a question.

Gan canny,
Glenn

----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.23 (02) [E]

Dear Ron,

Subject: Idiomatica

> Which takes me (not so elegantly) over to the widely used versatile
> Australian expression "struth"

> Some say this expression started off as "(this/it is) God's truth," namely
> as a type of oath emphasizing the veracity of one's story.

On to South African English, they use it pretty well unminced in the old
rural English communities, like around Grahamstown or Settlers, as in,
"God's Truth, Man: Can't you leave a gate closed when you find it closed?"

Yrs,
Mark

----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.23 (02) [E]

Beste Luc en Ron

Subject: Idiomatica

> Re "negation", I would like to add that in 1958 Dr. J. L. Pauwels
published
> a very fine article titled "De expletieve ontkenning nie(t) aan het einde
> van de zin in het Zuidnederlands en het Afrikaans"

Baie dankie hiervoor, Luc. U inset het ongetwyveld kol getref!

> Afrikaners (or is that "Afrikaansers" these days?),

Well, we say (& have fore some time) ' Afrikaan - Afrikane' for an African
or Africans, covering any nation from Nama to Amazig, 'Afrikaner -
Afrikaners' for ourselves, & 'Afrikander - Afrikanders' for a local breed of
draught cattle. The difference between 'Afrikaner' & 'Afrikander' can stir
up quite as much heat here as the difference between 'Scots' & 'Scotch' (I
duck). The word 'Afrikaanses' (Afrikaans ones) would be an appropriate
extrapolation needed on the spur of the moment to differentiate, for
example, in a party, between those who speak Afrikaans & those who do not.

> Don't you also use the tag _... n??_ or _... n??_ where English uses tag
> questions ("..., isn't it?", "..., don't you?" etc.)

Yes we do. Thanks for the term 'tag'. I remember hearing a television
interview of an Austrian forester who made it his business to smuggle people
out of Hungary those years ago. He used 'n?' (& I would spell it exactly so)
quite a lot. His dialect was also rather easy to understand, which niggled a
bit, since I had long decided Austrians were High Germans, & I was more
partisan to the Low Germans myself.

Standard German uses
> _..., nicht wahr?_ (dialectal _..., net?_, _..., gell(e)?_, etc.) and
French
> uses _..., n'est pas?_?

I would rather deem the 'n?!' or 'n??' to be an interpolation asking if the
conversant follows so far - irrespective of whether he agrees. One would use
it freely in a convoluted argument, but with someone with whom you seek
agreement, you interpolate your statements in exactly the same place, in
exactly the same way, with 'nie waar nie?'

Ja; I would read all these interpolations as 'n?'.

> Does this ring familiar to Afrikaans ears?  How about the ears of the Low
> Franconian areas?

But in the places I would use 'huh' in English, I would use 'waaaat?' in
Afrikaans.

> In some contexts it's similar to "..., huh?_ in some English dialects, I
> suppose.

Groete,
Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 27 01:37:45 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:37:45 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Gallica" 2004.07.26 (05) [E/Breton/Cornish]
Message-ID: <MON.26.JUL.2004.183745.0700.>

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From: Dan Prohaska <daniel at ryan-prohaska.com.>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.01 (03) [E/Breton/Cornish]

A Vretoneger wheg,

Lowen of vy ow gweles Bretoneger war agan rol ny. Pur vas yw dhe wodhvos bos
ran anedhans whath y'gan mesk. Wolcum te a vydh!

Mar pya whans dheugh gothfos nampyth adro dhe'n Kernowek, omdaveugh genef
dhewar an rol ma. Myr orth ow thrygva e-bost a ugh!

I'm happy to see a Breton speaker on our list. It's good to know there are
still some of them among us. Your welcome!

Should you want to know something about Cornish contact me off-list. See my
e-mail address above.

Ganso oll ow holon vy,
Dan

-----------

From: Carlos Eduardo Abbud <ceabbud at yahoo.com.br>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.01 (03) [E/Gaelic]

>>Dear Sir,
>>As bretonnant and intersted in celtic cultures, I agree with you about the
>>need of emphazising to parents in order to make them see that a languages
>>is a mankind's heritage and it must be protected.
>>Maybe to force the Mass Media and Internet sites having editions totally
>>in dangered languages was a good path.
>>Sincerally yours
>>professor doctor Carlos Eduardo Le Fur Abbud

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>

>>Digemer mad!
>>...
>>Kenavo! D'ur wech all!

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 27 01:39:50 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:39:50 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2004.07.26 (06) [E]
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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Oral tradition" 2004.07.22 (01) [E]

Dear Pat,

Subject: Oral tradition

Please keep on writing!

By the way, your postscript below has had only one other response so far, so
let me jump in again.

Roundabout before Tacitus the word 'Diet' applied variously to the
Community, the Law of the Community, or the Council in Law of the Community,
& occasionally, the Leader of the Community. We still get the word 'Diet' in
German: As in; 'The Diet of Worms.' As a kid I loved that. The English -
now, the English: They applied the word 'Dutch' to all related peoples of
Germanic origin, which was essentially true, & most useful to the English as
they were mostly the same & moreover, outsiders. However,  this was not how
they 'identified' themselves. The Fleming & the Afrikaner would at need
'identify themselves' as 'Diets' & the German as 'Deutsch', but really, the
more local appellations were more useful in their own communities, and until
for example Bismarck, more favoured; such as Saxon, Nederlander, Afrikaner,
Lexebergesch, Fries, etc.

> (research student in archaeology, asking questions about how people
> identified themselves as 'Dutch' outside of the Low Countries in the
> 1600s and 1700s)

Yrs,
Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 27 01:41:03 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:41:03 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Architecture" 2004.07.26 (07) [E]
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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2004.07.26 (02) [E]

Dear Pat,

Subject: Identity.

> > (research student in archaeology, asking questions about how people
> > identified themselves as 'Dutch' outside of the Low Countries in the
> > 1600s and 1700s)

> Is this (above) a serious statement? If so, you are about to be so
> snowed under!

> Thank you both for asking.  Yes, I'm serious.  I am working on the use
> and meaning of wall anchors (muurankeren), and comparing this building
> technique to other ways people identified themselves, or others as being
> Dutch.  I'm particularly interested in the use of material culture in
> such identification.

I humbly apologise! I thought this was a strictly linguistic matter, ratther
than, ah, venacular architecture. Mind you, I should have thought the wall
anchor was too idiosyncratic a device with which to follow cultural
diffusion & differentiation.
On this same subject, as I page through a guide-book (to the 'Nederlands
Openluchtmuseum'), I spot pictures showing wall-anchors that are 'I' shaped,
'Y' shaped, shaped to depict the date of building, 'I', '6', 'I', '7', but
mostly just vertical 'I' shaped.
Sorry, you got me interested. I should rather have followed other venacular
architectural trends, like the use of brick (very telling - there is no
stone in the Netherlands) & the use of gables, as opposed to overhanging
eaves. An English bricklayer's reference to the 'Flemish bond' tells you
pretty unequivocally where it came from, as well as approximately when
(English these days are more likely to use 'Belgian' as an appellation these
days, than 'Fleminsh' for example.
Sorry - your subject - 'bye.

Yrs,
Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 27 01:43:57 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:43:57 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.26 (08) [E]
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From: Daniel Prohaska <daniel at ryan-prohaska.com>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.09 (05) [E]

Reinhard/Ron wrote:

>>Folks,
>>Does any of you have the words of the old (somewhat gruesome) Frisian
>>ballad
>>_A redder tr?d a bai un a daans_ (or was it _A redder tr?d un a daans met
>>a baai_?) and can share it with me/us?
>>I learned some of the verses in my teen years and have forgotten them
>>almost totally.  I imagine this would be interesting material for many of
>>us. Any annotation or translation would be appreciated also.
>>Regards and thanks,

Reinhard,
Have you been able to track the song down yet. I'm sorry I can't help you
there, but I would be interested in it as well,
All the best,
Dan

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Literature

Thanks, Dan.

I've heard nothing so far, and on the web there is only mention of the song
(variously spelled) in repertoirs.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 27 02:05:38 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:05:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.26 (09) [E]
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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.23 (03) [D/E]

Dear John & Ron,

Subject: Idiomatica

[Cognate with West Frisian _oat_, Dutch _oot_, Dutch regional (West Flemish)
> _ate_, _ote_, (Zeeland) _??t_, _??te_, all in sense 'wild oat' (cf. sense
> 3); further etymology uncertain: perh. < the same Indo-European base as
> ancient Greek ??????]
> </quote>

Thanks, but then why do we in Afrikaans call it 'hawer', & where does
'haver' come from?

Yrs,
Mark

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Mark,

The word group you are asking about is predominant in the Continental
Lowlands languages; e.g., also Dutch _haver_, Westerlauwer Frisan _hjouwer_
and Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _haver_ ~ _haber_, also German (_habero_ >
_habere_ >) _Hafer_, Yiddish ??????_hober_, Danish _havre_, Norwegian
_havre_, Swedish _havre_, Icelandic _hafra_.  The German form is suspected
of being a Lowlands Saxon loan, having replaced _Haber_, which is still
found in non-standard dialects as also in Yiddish (see above).

The etymology is apparently obscure.  It is suspected to be derived from the
word for "goat" (Germanic *_ha?ra_, cf. Latin _caper_ < Indo-European
*_kapro-s_), thus used to be considered *"goat's corn," or *"buck wheat"
(!).

Groete,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 27 14:29:05 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 07:29:05 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.27 (01) [D]
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUL.2004.072905.0700.>

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From: Frank Verhoft <frank.verhoft at skynet.be>
Subject: Etymology

Hi all,

In "Hondsdraf. Waar komen onze woorden vandaan?" by Nicoline van der Sijs
(Sdu, 2004), a brief discussion on "siroop"/"stroop" can be found (p.65).

"Tussen s en r werd een t ingelast, vergelijk het dialectwoord astrant
'vrijpostig' (van het Frans assurant), kastrol naast casserole, en stroop
naast siroop.
In deze gevallen is telkens eerst de onbeklemtoonde klinker tussen s en r in
de uitspraak verdwenen (dus [asrant], [kasrol] en [sroop], waarna t werd
toegevoegd."

Groetjes,

Frank

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 27 21:36:33 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:36:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Oral tradition" 2004.07.27 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUL.2004.143633.0700.>

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Oral tradition


  Beste Denis,

  >>Hey Luc, that is a super site!

  >>denis dujardin

  Luc wrote:

  >Beste li?glanners,
  >
  >Those of you that are fond of Belgian folkloric tales, may be
  >interested in this website:
  >
  >http://www.volksverhalenbank.be/
  >
  >So far only the Limburgish part is ready, but soon the West-Flemish
  >section should be operational too.
  >
  >Kind greetings,
  >
  >Luc Hellinckx

  Stefaan Top is the guy who should be thanked Denis *s*. In my opinion, his
work can be compared to what the brothers Grimm achieved in Germany in the
19th century.

  Kind greetings,

  Luc Hellinckx

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 27 21:46:42 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:46:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.27 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUL.2004.144642.0700.>

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From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: etymology

Hi Lowlanders,

In dutch there is this expression : "geen sant in eigen land", meaning
"no one is a prophet in his own country".
The word "sant" is fascinating. I know that in Swedish, "det ?r sant" ,
means, "it is true".
Can anybody refer me to other words in other Lowland languages that
might contain the same stem or have the same meaning?

Denis Dujardin
West-Flanders

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Denis!

Are you sure this _sant_ is unrelated to "saint" (in which case it would
have undergone a semantic shift -- "someone chosen, with a special gift" >)?

It sure looks like a Romance loan to me, for it would start with _z-_
(before a vowel) if it were Germanic (which some Flemish dialects do have:
_zant_).  Middle Dutch had _sanct_, _sant(e)_, _sent(e)_, _sint(e)_,
_sunte_, _sonte_, mostly used as a prefix before names.  All of it
ultimately goes back to Latin _sanctus_ 'holy', 'sacred'.

Just wondering ...

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 27 22:47:15 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:47:15 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.27 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUL.2004.154715.0700.>

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Etymology

Beste Denis,

Ron is quite right, _sant_ is indeed an older Dutch word for
"saint"...heilige dus.
Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Tue Jul 27 23:26:28 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 16:26:28 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2004.07.27 (05) [A/E]
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUL.2004.162628.0700.>

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From: HALLS Haeng-Cho <zzhhalls at student.uq.edu.au>
Subject:


 Re "negation", I would like to add that in 1958 Dr. J. L. Pauwels
published
> a very fine article titled "De expletieve ontkenning nie(t) aan het einde
> van de zin in het Zuidnederlands en het Afrikaans"

Baie dankie hiervoor, Luc. U inset het ongetwyveld kol getref!

> Afrikaners (or is that "Afrikaansers" these days?),

Well, we say (& have fore some time) ' Afrikaan - Afrikane' for an African
or Africans, covering any nation from Nama to Amazig, 'Afrikaner -
Afrikaners' for ourselves, & 'Afrikander - Afrikanders' for a local breed of
draught cattle. The difference between 'Afrikaner' & 'Afrikander' can stir
up quite as much heat here as the difference between 'Scots' & 'Scotch' (I
duck). The word 'Afrikaanses' (Afrikaans ones) would be an appropriate
extrapolation needed on the spur of the moment to differentiate, for
example, in a party, between those who speak Afrikaans & those who do not.

> Don't you also use the tag _... n??_ or _... n??_ where English uses tag
> questions ("..., isn't it?", "..., don't you?" etc.)

Hey! Is that the same Dr. J. L. Pauwels I had for linguistics at Monash Uni
in the mid 90s? Great Lecturer, by the way

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 28 00:09:04 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 17:09:04 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.27 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUL.2004.170904.0700.>

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From: HALLS Haeng-Cho <zzhhalls at student.uq.edu.au>
Subject:


I'm wondering if the word 'sant' might mean Saint as in Santaclaas.
Heiliger, if you wish. That would make sense. No saint in one's own land.
Just a thought. What do you think?

----------

From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.27 (04) [E]

Thanx for the explanation Ron and Luc!
But I keep wondering, where the Swedish "sant" comes from.

Denis Dujardin

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

You're most welcome, Denis.

Swedish _sant_, Norwegian _sant_, Danish _sandt_, etc., are adverbial
derivations (/-t/) of adjectival Swedish _sann_, Norwegian _sann_, Danish
_sand_ 'right', 'correct', 'true', 'factual', etc.; cf. Old Norse _sannr_
'id.', _sanna_ 'to confirm', _sannagetall_ 'to assume as true', _sannleikr_
'truth', _sannligr_ 'probable', 'believable', 'proper', _sannfr??r_ 'well
informed', _sannsogli_ 'truth in speech', _sanns?gull_ 'being truthful', and
_sannyr?i_ 'truth'.

I cannot help but wonder if these words are related to Latin _s?nus_
(/s?n-/) 'healthy', 'well', 'right' and its Romance relations, derive from
Indo-European _s?nos_ 'whole' = 'as should be."

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 28 00:25:10 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 17:25:10 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.27 (07) [E]
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Folks,


There's a "new" song in my collection of poems and songs by the Lowlands
Saxon (Low German) author Klaus Groth:

http://www.geocities.com/grothwarken/

In the index it is marked as new.  It is "Abendfreden" ("Evening Peace").
It comes with several transliterations and with my English translation, as
well as with my Midi sound rendition (click on "Melody").

I added it because to members of the public wrote to me asking for it.  It's
one of the all-time sentimental favorites.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

L??d',



Kiekt maal up mien Sammelsuus' vun Klaus Groth sien Leder un Riemels:
http://www.geocities.com/grothwarken/

Daar findt Ji nu wat Nees: "Abendfreden".

Daar s?nd ?mschriften mit bi, ook mien ingelsch ?versetten un de Melodie, de
ik up Midi-Formaat instellt heff (up "Melodie" klicken).

Ik heff dat daarto daan, wieldat mi twee Minschen anschr?ven un mi daar?m
b?den hebbt.  Dat is een vun de sentimentalen Favoriten.

Gr?tens,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 28 15:03:06 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:03:06 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (02) [E/Italian]
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.080306.0700.>

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Etymology

Beste Ron,

>Swedish _sant_, Norwegian _sant_, Danish _sandt_, etc., are adverbial
>derivations (/-t/) of adjectival Swedish _sann_, Norwegian _sann_, Danish
>_sand_ 'right', 'correct', 'true', 'factual', etc.; cf. Old Norse _sannr_
>'id.', _sanna_ 'to confirm', _sannagetall_ 'to assume as true', _sannleikr_
>'truth', _sannligr_ 'probable', 'believable', 'proper', _sannfro??r_ 'well
>informed', _sannsogli_ 'truth in speech', _sanns?gull_ 'being truthful',
and
>_sannyr?i_ 'truth'.

>I cannot help but wonder if these words are related to Latin _sa?nus_
>(/sa?n-/) 'healthy', 'well', 'right' and its Romance relations, derive from
>Indo-European _sa?nos_ 'whole' = 'as should be."

These Scandinavian words are cognate with English _sooth_, as in
"soothsayer", "for sooth", "soothfast", "in good sooth" and the verb "to
soothe", all having something to do with "truth" (originally) <
Indo-European *sontos, present participle of IE *es "to be", compare Dutch
"zijnde".

The Christian concept of "sin" however did not exist among Germanic people,
so "sin" would be an early church loan from Latin "sons", "sontis" (see
above).

Latin "sanus" is another case I think, as it happened to be known only in
the Umbrian and Venetian regions.
"Saint", past participle of Latin "sancire" (to consecrate, render holy),
which in turn is derived from "sacer" (holy) < IE *sak, to elevate.
Note by the way that in Greek and Indian culture, "sacred" objects
apparently had two "faces", one that inspired  devotion and one that wreaked
havoc:

Sacro ? ci? che ? degno di adorazione (dalla radice tyeg e dal greco 'sebo',
venero), ma ? anche (dalla radice sak) ci? che ? terribile, da cui si deve
stare lontani. Cos? il latino "sacer", ci ricorda il dizionario, significa
insieme sacro e maledetto, venerabile e temuto, benefico e minaccioso.

Patrick C. Ryan links *sak even with Japanese "sake" (wine), in an attempt
to reconstruct a common ancestor of IE and Japanese. But no, not in the
sense of "that wich lifts our spirits" *s*

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.27 (03) [E]

Dear Denis & Ron,

Subject: etymology

> In dutch there is this expression : "geen sant in eigen land", meaning
> "no one is a prophet in his own country".

> Are you sure this _sant_ is unrelated to "saint" (in which case it would
> have undergone a semantic shift -- "someone chosen, with a special gift"
>)?

We say, 'Geen sant in sy eie land.' It is a straight quote from the Bible, &
the English says, 'A prophet is not without honour, except in his own
country.' Jesus was quoting a Jewish expression.

In Afrikaans 'sant' means saint, but it is rarely used. We have a preference
for 'heilige', as we do for all terms & roots of Teutonic origin.
However, the application of the expression is fairly loose. A young man may
be held in great respect, except in his own household, & if he notes this,
someone will quote that at him.
There are many such words in Afrikaans that survive only in 'old saws', like
this. Another is 'ros en ruiter', meaning 'horse & rider', though the ag
Afrikaans for 'horse' is 'perd'

yrs Sincerely,
Mark

----------

From: Peter Snepvangers <snepvangers at optushome.com.au>
Subject: Etymology


Hello Ron and Lowland folks,
I was wondering if you could help me understand about the origins of the
English word "Garden". I have noticed there are at least 3 variations used
by different languages with probably more variants used by these languages
that I am not aware of.
English - Garden
German - Garten
Limburgs 1 - Gaart
Dutch - Tuin
Afrikaans - Tuin
Frisian - Tun
Norwegian - Hage
Danish - Have
Limburgs 2 - Haof
Has the meaning of garden changed throughout history?
Cheers
Peter S
snepvangers at optushome.com.au

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Hi, Pete!

Thanks for the clarification and the private communication.

Strewth!  This topic sure got your juices flowing, didn't it?

Hope you had a good time in Tasmania and didn't freeze too much down there.
Great to have you back!

Ta-ta!
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 28 15:03:55 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:03:55 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.28 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.080355.0700.>

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From: Peter Snepvangers <snepvangers at optushome.com.au>
Subject: Idiomatica


Which takes me (not so elegantly) over to the widely used versatile
Australian expression "struth" (pronounced like "truth" with an "s" in
front, the "s", however, being pronounced as something between "s" and "sh"
by many (at least in Western Australia)).  I have never been able to
understand the full extent of its use, though I have a general idea and used
the expression myself while living in Australia.  (I won't even as much as
*try* using it here in the States, for that would *really* come across as
"alien.")

Some say this expression started off as "(this/it is) God's truth," namely
as a type of oath emphasizing the veracity of one's story.  (Alternatively,
you can say "Fair dinkum," but I feel this expression has begun to fade
away, sounds just too "Ocker" to many.)  You can still say "Struth!" after
telling an incredible-sounding story or if you read doubt or disbelief in
your audience's faces.  The other major use I have observed is emphasizing a
reprimand, for instance, "Stop that, Pete! Struth!", or just "Struth,
Pete!", something like "Really ...!" or "You're impossible!"  You can also
use "Struth!" in the sense of "(Oh,) Please!" or "Give me a break!" to
express disagreement.  I think you can furthermore use "Struth ..." to
placate someone's burst of anger, also in the sense of "Give me a break!" or
"Come one now!"  I'm sure there's more of this, and our friends in and from
Australia can elaborate.
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

Hello Ron,
I have just returned from Tasmania so am a little late reading and replying
to your mail. I have often heard similar explanations for the origin and
meaning of struth (middle english  corruption of "it is truth?"). The
Collins on line dictionary states it is a 19 century alterationI of "God's
truth". Websters online dictionary (Rosetta edition) does not show any info
on struth except to say it is Scottish for a stream; Scottish for ostrich;
Albanian for camel bird (ostrich).

I do not really think this is the correct spelling or meaning of the word as
used in Australia. I have always known and read the word as strewth. I have
not heard it used as a verification but only as an exclamation or
interjection expressing surprise, dismay, amazement. Alternatives are
"crikey", "goodness gracious me", "wow", "gee whiz", "stone the crows". The
word is predominantly used by older Australians but keeps being picked up by
the kids and shows no sign of disappearing yet. Ron your usage "You can
still say "Struth!" after telling an incredible-sounding story or if you
read doubt or disbelief in your audience's faces" is not really used this
way although you could just say It's the truth (I'm not kidding you). I
totally agree with the other usage examples you have shown us. I have a
story in our local newspaper dated July 27th (coincidence??) and I will scan
it as a jpeg file and email it to you seperately.
Strewth!!! that was a long winded reply.
Tot siens
Peter S
snepvangers at optushome.com.au

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Hi, Pete!

Thanks for the clarification and the private communication.

Strewth!  This topic sure got your juices flowing, didn't it?

Hope you had a good time in Tasmania and didn't freeze too much down there.
Great to have you back!

Ta-ta!
Reinhard/Ron


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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 28 15:59:22 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:59:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.085922.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Oops!  I added my "Idiomatica" comment to the "Etymology" issues.  It's too
early in the day to keep it straight apparently.  Sorry.

Peter Snepvangers asked about garden:

> I was wondering if you could help me understand about the origins of the
> English word "Garden". I have noticed there are at least 3 variations used
> by different languages with probably more variants used by these languages
> that I am not aware of.
> English - Garden
> German - Garten
> Limburgs 1 - Gaart
> Dutch - Tuin
> Afrikaans - Tuin
> Frisian - Tun
> Norwegian - Hage
> Danish - Have
> Limburgs 2 - Haof
> Has the meaning of garden changed throughout history?

I think so, Peter.  I think that flower gardens, pleasure gardens etc. are
fairly new concepts in Europe, starting in and around medieval palaces,
monasteries and convents, perhaps in part developed out of need (medicinal
herbs, etc.) and in part inspired by the gardens of the "Orient" (i.e., most
of sub-Siberian Asia) where they had been developed for millenia.  I'm
pretty certain that among ordinary people gardens as we know them now
started out as what we call "kitchen gardens" used for growing herbs and
vegetables.  They were planted just outside a house, namely out in the
"yard," a word apparently related to "garden" and still often used in
American English where Europeans would be more prone toward saying "garden."

The other words for "garden" you listed clearly point toward an origin as
just an enclosure (Continental Lowlandic _tuin_ etc.) and as a paddock or
grazing corral (North Germanic _hage_, _have_), as still in Swedish _haga_;
but note Icelandic _gar?ur_ for both 'yard' and 'garden'.  I assume these
words are related to Continental _haag_ and English "haw," denoting 'grove',
'piece of land with plant growth', etc.

Lowlands Saxon has two words for "garden," depending on the dialect.  In the
extreme west (which includes most of Eastern Friesland in Germany and all
dialects of the Eastern Netherlands) it is _tuun_ (Netherlands spelling
_toen_) [tu:n].  In the other dialects it is _gaarden_ [gQ:3`dn], _gaarn_
[g@:3`n], etc., and in these dialects _tuun_ (<Tun>, <Tuun>) means 'fence'.
Thus, this word (like Dutch _tuin_, Afrikaans _tuin_, W. Frisian _tun_,
etc., also dialectal Scandinavian _t?n_ 'farm-yard', in the sense of
'garden', 'yard', point toward the idea of 'enclosure', as do the English
and Scots cognates "town" and _toon (< Old English _tuun_, _t?n_ and Old
Saxon _t?n_, also starting off as "enclosure," "fortified place," thus
cognate with Celtic *_d?n_ "fortified place" = 'fortress', 'camp' > 'town'.

Note also that Scots has _gairden_ for "garden," as well as _yaird_ for both
'yard' and 'garden', also _kailyaird_ for 'kitchen garden' (lit. "cabbage
yard" or "soup yard").

Finally note the following:

Germanic *_gardos_ > Old English _?eard_, Old Saxon _gard_, Old German
_gart_, Gothic _gards_, Old Norse _gar?r_; cf. Old Northern French _gardin_
(< Latin _gard?num_ < _gardum_)

The Germanic words clearly point toward enclosure ("safe place") also.  Old
English _?eard_ means 'fence', 'dwelling', 'house' and 'region'.  Old Saxon
_gard_ means 'enclosure', '(enclosed) field' and 'dwelling', Middle Dutch
_gaard_ and Old German _gart_ mean 'circle' or 'ring' (thus also
"enclosure").  Hence also Swedish _g?rd_ and Danish _gard_ (dialectal ~
_g?rd_) in the sense of 'yard' and 'farm', thus just like Limburgish _haof_,
Lowlands Saxon _hov_ (<Hoff>, <hof> [hOf]) and German _Hof_.

So it seems to me that it all goes back to the semantic base *"enclosure."

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 28 16:42:37 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:42:37 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.28 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.094237.0700.>

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From: Frank Verhoft <frank.verhoft at skynet.be>
Subject: Resources

Hi all

I've got a few questions in connection with two dictionaries:

1.
In Fick's "W?rterbuch der Indogermanischen Sprachen: Dritter Teil:
Wortschatz der Germanischen Spracheinheit" (Revised ed. 1909) some
abbreviatons are used which are not always clear to me. Could somebody help
me out?
- "Cymr. = Cymrisch." [is Welsh meant here?]
- "klruss. =  kleinrussisch" [=? Belarus]

2.
Both abbreviations also appears in Franck's Etymologisch woordenboek der
Nederlansche taal (1912; 1949 revised ed. Van Wijk).
Some other abb. that are unclear to me:
- "bei. = beiersch" and "beierl. = beierlandsch" [what's the difference?]
- "geg. = gegisch" [??]
- "pael. = paelignisch" [=? so-called Pelasgian]

Thanks in advance,

Frank

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Moyen, Frank!

Here's my quarter Euro's worth of help.

> - "Cymr. = Cymrisch." [is Welsh meant here?]

I assume so.

> - "klruss. =  kleinrussisch" [=? Belarus]

No, Ukrainian.
(Belarusian is _Wei?russisch_.)

> - "bei. = beiersch" and "beierl. = beierlandsch" [what's the difference?]

Hmmm ...  _beiersch_ (now _baierisch_) should be 'Bavarian'.  Might he mean
'Baruvarian' (now _bajuwarisch_, more generic, including most dialects of
Austria) by _beierlandsch_?  I found _beierlandsch_ in the _Digitale
Biliotheek voor de Nederlandse letteren_
(http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/ginn001hand01/ginn001hand01_0006.htm), but they
don't say what they mean by it.

> - "geg. = gegisch" [??]
It's Gheg (Albanian _geg?rishte_), a dialect group of Albanian (A. _shqipe_,
_arb?rishte_, G. _Albanisch_) -- some would say a language -- as distinct
from the groups Tosc (G. _toskisch_, A. _tosk?rishte_) and Scutari/Skutari
(A. _shkod?rishte_, G. _skutarisch_), all counted as Albanian.

> - "pael. = paelignisch" [=? so-called Pelasgian]

Pelignian or Pelasgian, an Italic (thus Romance) variety (or group of
varieties) belonging to the Sabellic group, thus akin to Umbrian and Oscan
(Osco-Umbrian), Sabine, etc., also a relative of Etruscan, Picene, Faliscan,
Messapic, Volscian, etc., and the surviving Latinian (or Latinic) varieties
Latin, Italian, Ligurian, Ladin, Friulian, Rhaetic (> Rhaeto-Romansch),
Venetic (> Venetian, Veneto), Istriot, Istro-Romanian, Arumansh and
Romanian, all of the above used in Italy, Croatia, Switzerland, Greece,
Romania and Moldova.

I hope this helped.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 28 17:31:33 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:31:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.103133.0700.>

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From: Troy Sagrillo <meshwesh at bigfoot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (03) [E]

on 28.07.2004 5.59 PM,  R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>:

> Note also that Scots has _gairden_ for "garden," as well as _yaird_ for
both
> 'yard' and 'garden', also _kailyaird_ for 'kitchen garden' (lit. "cabbage
> yard" or "soup yard").

Scots also has _toun_ & _town_ for "an area of arable land on an estate,
occupied by a number of farmers as co-tenants; a farm with its buildings and
the immediate surrounding area" (Concise Scots Dict.). I vaugely remember in
the novel _Waverley_ by Walter Scott it is used in the sense of "garden", bu
it's been awhile since I read it, so it may have been in the sense of
"farm".

Peter Snepvangers wrote:

> Dutch - Tuin

I regularly hear "hof" in the Antwerpse Kempen, so it may be more generally
Brabants as well.

Cheers,

Troy

----------

From: Patrick or Cynthia Karl <pkarl at grasshoppernet.com>
Subject: Etymology


From: Peter Snepvangers <snepvangers at optushome.com.au>
Subject: Etymology


Hello Ron and Lowland folks,
I was wondering if you could help me understand about the origins of the
English word "Garden". I have noticed there are at least 3 variations used
by different languages with probably more variants used by these languages
that I am not aware of.
English - Garden
German - Garten
Limburgs 1 - Gaart
Dutch - Tuin
Afrikaans - Tuin
Frisian - Tun
Norwegian - Hage
Danish - Have
Limburgs 2 - Haof
Has the meaning of garden changed throughout history?The 3 variations all
have an English counterpart, not necessarily with the exact, but usually a
closely related meaning:  garden, town, hedge.  The OED says that an early
meaning of garden was "enclosed place".  The enclosure could be made either
from a fence or a hedge.  Town is closely related to the Celtic word for
"enclosed place", dunum, and to the German word for "fence", Zaun.  I think
other cognates of garden are Russian grad, gorod, Czech hrad, Latin hortus;
possibly French (and English) court.  (An especially interesting word in
this category is English orchard, originally (i.e., in OE) ort-yeard, where
the ort comes from or is related to Latin hortus, and the 2nd component is
identical with English yard.  So an orchard is a yard-yard.)

Note, too, if I'm not mistaken, the meaning of garden in England is what an
American might call a lawn or a yard (another cognate of garden), while in
the US it's a plot for growing vegetables, herbs, flowers.

I would say that rather than the meaning of garden changing throughout
history different cultures chose different aspects of the enclosure process
and named them with related words.

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 28 17:35:56 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:35:56 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.28 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.103556.0700.>

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From: Troy Sagrillo <meshwesh at bigfoot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.28 (04) [E]

on 28.07.2004 6.42 PM, Lowlands-L wrote:

>> - "pael. = paelignisch" [=? so-called Pelasgian]
>
> Pelignian or Pelasgian, an Italic (thus Romance) variety (or group of
> varieties) belonging to the Sabellic group, thus akin to Umbrian and Oscan
> (Osco-Umbrian), Sabine, etc., also a relative of Etruscan, Picene,
Faliscan,
> Messapic, Volscian, etc., and the surviving Latinian (or Latinic)
varieties
> Latin, Italian, Ligurian, Ladin, Friulian, Rhaetic (> Rhaeto-Romansch),
> Venetic (> Venetian, Veneto), Istriot, Istro-Romanian, Arumansh and
> Romanian, all of the above used in Italy, Croatia, Switzerland, Greece,
> Romania and Moldova.

In English at least "Pelasgian" generally refers to the pre-Greek
inhabitants of Greece and Anatolia. The surviving loan-words and place names
that made their way into Classical Greek indicate the language(s) was/were
non-Indo-European (thus excluding Hittite and related Anatolian languages).

See also:

http://www.linguistlist.org/~ask-ling/archive-most-recent/msg10827.html

Cheers,

Troy

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Thanks a lot for the clarification, Troy.

I suppose this is why the author "so-called" (expressing disagreement)
before "Pelasgian," assumedly because the name had come to be used for an
Italic group.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 28 20:48:45 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:48:45 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (07) [D/E]
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.134845.0700.>

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From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (05) [E]

> From: Patrick or Cynthia Karl <pkarl at grasshoppernet.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> From: Peter Snepvangers <snepvangers at optushome.com.au>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Hello Ron and Lowland folks,
> I was wondering if you could help me understand about the origins of the
> English word "Garden". I have noticed there are at least 3 variations used
> by different languages with probably more variants used by these languages
> that I am not aware of.
> English - Garden
> German - Garten
> Limburgs 1 - Gaart
> Dutch - Tuin
> Afrikaans - Tuin
> Frisian - Tun
> Norwegian - Hage
> Danish - Have
> Limburgs 2 - Haof
> Has the meaning of garden changed throughout history?The 3 variations all
> have an English counterpart, not necessarily with the exact, but usually a
> closely related meaning:  garden, town, hedge.  The OED says that an early
> meaning of garden was "enclosed place".  The enclosure could be made
> either
> from a fence or a hedge.  Town is closely related to the Celtic word for
> "enclosed place", dunum, and to the German word for "fence", Zaun.  I
> think
> other cognates of garden are Russian grad, gorod, Czech hrad, Latin
hortus;
> possibly French (and English) court.  (An especially interesting word in
> this category is English orchard, originally (i.e., in OE) ort-yeard,
> where
> the ort comes from or is related to Latin hortus, and the 2nd component is
> identical with English yard.  So an orchard is a yard-yard.)
>
> Note, too, if I'm not mistaken, the meaning of garden in England is what
> an
> American might call a lawn or a yard (another cognate of garden), while in
> the US it's a plot for growing vegetables, herbs, flowers.
>
> I would say that rather than the meaning of garden changing throughout
> history different cultures chose different aspects of the enclosure
> process
> and named them with related words.

If I am not mistaken, English "guard," "ward," and "warden" also come from
the same root as "garden" and "yard."

Kevin Caldwell (kcaldwell31 at comcast.net)

----------

From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (05) [E]

>From: Patrick or Cynthia Karl <pkarl at grasshoppernet.com>
>Subject: Etymology
>
>From: Peter Snepvangers <snepvangers at optushome.com.au>
>Subject: Etymology
>
>Hello Ron and Lowland folks,
>I was wondering if you could help me understand about the origins of the
>English word "Garden". I have noticed there are at least 3 variations used
>by different languages with probably more variants used by these languages
>that I am not aware of.
>English - Garden
>German - Garten
>Limburgs 1 - Gaart
>Dutch - Tuin
>Afrikaans - Tuin
>Frisian - Tun
>Norwegian - Hage
>Danish - Have
>Limburgs 2 - Haof
>Has the meaning of garden changed throughout history?The 3 variations all
>have an English counterpart, not necessarily with the exact, but usually a
>closely related meaning:  garden, town, hedge.  The OED says that an early
>meaning of garden was "enclosed place".  The enclosure could be made either
>from a fence or a hedge.  Town is closely related to the Celtic word for
>"enclosed place", dunum, and to the German word for "fence", Zaun.  I think
>other cognates of garden are Russian grad, gorod, Czech hrad, Latin hortus;
>possibly French (and English) court.  (An especially interesting word in
>this category is English orchard, originally (i.e., in OE) ort-yeard, where
>the ort comes from or is related to Latin hortus, and the 2nd component is
>identical with English yard.  So an orchard is a yard-yard.)
>
I think the ort in ortgeard is more likely to be related to wort meaning
plant OE wyrt, wort Germanic wr?t IE wr?d
branch, root. Latin hortus is from IE gher- enclosure

David Barrow

----------

From: Ben J. Bloomgren <godsquad at cox.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (03) [E]

Is that how Stuttgart got its name?

----------

From: Mathieu van Woerkom <mathieu at brabants.org>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Peter Snepvangers wrote:

> I was wondering if you could help me understand about the origins of the
> English word "Garden". I have noticed there are at least 3 variations used
> by different languages with probably more variants used by these languages
> that I am not aware of.
> English - Garden
> German - Garten
> Limburgs 1 - Gaart
> Dutch - Tuin
> Afrikaans - Tuin
> Frisian - Tun
> Norwegian - Hage
> Danish - Have
> Limburgs 2 - Haof

Hoi Peter,

twee opmerkingen:
- Het Limburgse woord 'toen' betekent hetzelfde als het Ned. 'afrastering',
wellicht dat dit in het Oudned. ook wel de betekenis van het woord 'tuin'
(toen waarschijnlijk nog 'tuun') was. Het woord voor hetgene dat de tuin
omringde, werd waarschijnlijk later gebruikt als aanduiding voor de geh?le
tuin.
- Het Ned. woord 'hof' betekent in het Eng. 'court': o.a. de binnenplaats
van een kasteel of boerderij. In het woord 'kerkhof' is dit nog steeds terug
te vinden in de hedendaagse taal. Ik geloof dat in deleb van Belgi? het
woord 'hof' ook nog steeds wordt gebruikt voor 'tuin'.

Groeten,
Mathieu

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 28 22:42:21 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:42:21 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (08) [D/E]
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.154221.0700.>

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From: GoodbyColumbus at aol.com <GoodbyColumbus at aol.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (07) [D/E]

In a message dated 7/28/04 3:54:27 PM Central Daylight Time,
lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net writes:



  If I am not mistaken, English "guard," "ward," and "warden" also come from
  the same root as "garden" and "yard."

Yes, but by way of Old French "guarder" (garder), Old North French 'warder',
both of Teutonic origin.

Here's another etymology I found, Old French 'gardin' (F. jardin), of
Teutonic origin as well.

[Brad Conatser]

----------

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (07) [D/E]

> From: Mathieu van Woerkom <mathieu at brabants.org>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology"
>
> - Het Limburgse woord 'toen' betekent hetzelfde als het Ned.
'afrastering',
> ... Ik geloof dat in deleb van Belgi? het
> woord 'hof' ook nog steeds wordt gebruikt voor 'tuin'.

In my West-Limburgish (Vliermaal) the word is wermessof. I guess wermes
corresponds to "warmoes" (cf. lemma from the WNT below)
In Central Limburgish (Mopertingen) I hear "moestuin".
The "moes" is apparently common.

Regards,
Roger

-- annex: lemma "warmoes" from the WNT CDROM

WARMOES ? WARMMOES, WERMOES ?, znw. onz., in enkele  wdb. (vanaf CALISCH
[1864] t/m KUIPERS [1901]) onz. (het gewas)  en vr. (het gerecht), mv.
warmoezen. Uit warm (I) en moes.  Mnl. warmoes; mnd. warm?s; mhd. warmuos.
Naast de gegeven  nevenvormen zijn ook incidenteel spellingen aangetroffen
als warremes,  waermoes, wermmoes, wermoos en wermis.
1) Groente, moeskruid; inz. groene groente, bladgroente. Als gewas. ||
SASBOUT [1576]. Waerm-moes ... Olus, olus coctiuum, herba esculenta dicitur
waermmoes, KIL. [1588]. V. DALE [1872 ?].
a) In 't alg. || Wermoes lie, wermoes lie, roepen dees wiven; krieclie,
kerslie comen oock met hoopen, A. BIJNS (?) in Leuv. Bijdr. 4, 354 [voor
1540]. Ghy claddekens fier ? jent int bestier, Diet groen wermoes vercoopen,
Comt al tot hier ? sonder dangier, En wilt v borss ontcnoopen, Antw. Sp. m
iv r? [1561]. Wat dat profiter ware om de nieuwe vischmarct te verbeteren,
soe met aldaer te doen staen die wermoes oft suvel oft hoenderen ende ander
vogelen vercoopen, R.G.P. 75, 777 [1567]. Dat binnen Leyden geen broot en
was, maer alleen gegeten werden asschecouxkens, wortelen, aiuwyen, looc ende
ander wermoos, WOUTER JACOBSZ, Dagb. 433 [1574]. Sy (quam) naer huus ... met
waermoes, die sy up de maerct gecocht hadde, bij CANNAERT, Bijdr. 485
[1604]. Dese vrouwen waren int veldt om warremes ofte groentte te plucken
gegaen, Daghreg. Bat. 1628, 376 [1628]. Zyn Wel Ed. Gestr. gaf hem vryheid
om een Beestje te weiden voor zyn huisgezin, en een stukje lands tot
warmoes, Verh. Holl. Maatsch. Weet. 18, 590 [1778]. Hier zag men een
schuitjen, dat met warmoes van over het meir aankwam, tegen een Enkhuizer
jol stuiten, V. LENNEP, Rom. 5, 7 [1836].
? Warmoes scherven, hakken, groente snijden e.d. || Het quaet iaer bracht my
oyt aen dees teve (t.w. "myn wyf"); Zy doet my den ketel, en den hanghel
schueren, Het wermoes scherven, de pappe rueren, A. BIJNS in Leuv. Bijdr. 4,
320 [voor 1540]. An u moet ghi trecken des huus geheel bestier ...: Ghy en
mueght den pap niet laten bederuen. Den pot moetti heeten, en dwarm moes
scheruen, DE CASTELEIN, Const v. Rhetor. 156 [1548]. Non fortse, ick wil mij
pijnen te spoene, Om dwermoes te schervene opt cort vermaen, Drie Esbat. 37
[1591]. Zy hackte warmoes, 't welck haer man noch daeghs voorheenen In 't
kleene hofken pluckte, VONDEL 11, 569 [1671].
? Warmoes koken, zieden. || Voord zuldi twermoes coecken nae mijn vertellen,
Esbat. v.d. Rode Lelije 131 [1559]. Om te weten hoemen warmoes, erten,
pomeyen schuldich is te sieden, VORSELMAN, Coock Boeck (ed. COCKX-INDESTEGE)
117 [1560]. Koockb. 16 [1599].
b) In 't bijz. als ben. voor bep. soorten groente en veelal  genoemd naast
of tgov. andere groentesoorten, inz. peulvruchten (erwten),  boonen, kool,
wortelen. || Dair hij wilt saeijen wermoes oft coolen, in L. DE MAN, Brab.
Oork. 147 [1537]. Martwijfs, of warmmoes wijfs, die op den mart voorstaen
met alderhande groenicheyt, als rapen, wortels, caroten, cauwels, en
warmmoes, Hist. v. Corn. Adr. 1, 60 b [ed. 1569]. Den voorsz Impost sal
ontfangen worden by den Collecteur ofte Pachter ... twee stuyvers ende een
oortgen ter Maent op elck gemeth Lants dat tegenwoordich besaeyt is met hart
of weeck Koorn, ront of plat Saet, Peen ..., Latou ende Warmoes, Gr.
Placaetb. 1, 1942 [1583]. 1, 1948 [1608]. Van alderley Groen, om te stoven,
Spinagie, Biet, Krop-sala, Endivie ..., Warmoes, Artisocken, Verm.
Landt-Lev. 3, 59 [1670]. Aen Warmoes, rapen en alderley Wortelen en Kool
6-0, Bewys Predik. Huysvr. 3 [1670]. Dat de Markt van Warmoes, Wortelen,
Kool, Groote en andere Boonen ... by continuatie zal worden gehouden aan de
Zuydzyde van de Groote Kerk, Keuren v. Haerlem 2, 340 b [1749]. Ned. Jaerb.
1749, 1042 [1749].
? Als ben. voor de prei (Allium porrum). || Minutal. Een pot pasteye,
ghecapt vleesch, oft ghesch?rft waermoes, PALUDANUS 29 b [1544]. LAMBRECHT
[1562].
? Als ben. voor een tweetal geslachten uit de fam. der  Chenopodiaceae
(ganzevoetachtigen).
     Beta Tourn.; inz. de gekweekte hoofdvormen Circa L.  (mangelwortel, die
als veevoeder dient) en R?pa Dum. (suiker-, en roode  biet) van de soort
Beta vulgaris L. || HANNOT-V. HOOGSTR. [1704]. BINNART-DE WILDE [1719]. ? De
Beete is hier te Lande met den naem Wermmoes genoech bekent, DODON. 1054 b
[ed. post. 1608]. HEUKELS 39 [1907]. Beta .... vulgaris var. Cicla ...
italische beetwortel, mangelwortel, snijbeet, snijbiet, waarmoes, warmoes,
GERTH V. WIJK, Plantnames 171 a [1911].
     Atriplex Tourn.; inz. de soort A. hortensis L.  (Tuinmelde), die
ongeschikt is om als voedsel te dienen. || DE BO [1873]. Atriplex ....
Hortensis L. Cosmopol. ... belle dame, hofmelde, luizenmelde ..., tuinmelde,
waarmoech, warmoes, wermes, GERTH V. WIJK, Plantnames 148 a [1911].
2) Gerecht, gekookt of gestoofd, van veelal fijngehakte groente met
verschillende toevoegsels; groenteschotel; stoofschotel; groentestoverij.
Als  spijs voor den mensch. || Wermoes oft pottagie van groene kruyden,
SASBOUT [1576]. MELLEMA [1618]. BOMHOFF [1857]. V. DALE [1872 ? 1898].
KUIPERS [1901].
a) In 't alg. || Ende op dat hi mi seer lief mocht crigen soe soude ic hem
teten geuen wermoes des noens op sint ians auont ghepluct, Euang. v.d.
Spinr. D iiij r? [c. 1500]. Des sanderendachs (zal men opdienen) 'smiddags
eerst gecruyt warmoes, hammen ofte scoeren, werenvleys, ende elc een pynte
wijns, in E. Volk 11, 90 [c. 1550]. Omdat door dese groente (zeker kruid
tegen scheurbuik), die sowel tot zalaet als warmoes ghebruyckt wierd, ons
volck in seer korten tijd alt'saem op de beenen geraeckten en ververscht
werden, continueerden wij alle dagen dese groente te halen, in VOORB.
CANNENB., Nass. Vloot 79 [1624]. Ontrent 3 ueren voorden avont keerde onse
vaertuijgen weder; brengende verscheijde monsters van Groenten ... eenige
niet ongelijck Zeecker groente die aende Cabo de bona Esperance groeijt ende
bequaem is als warmoes te gebruijcken, TASMAN, Journ. 32 [1642]. Men noemt
in de kookerij ook Moes of groen Moes, ook war-Moes, een gestoof van deze of
geene Moes- of keuken gewassen, CHOMEL 2167 b [1771]. Burgerlieden waren al
wel tevreden met een schotel warmoes, een stuk koud vleesch en eenig fruit,
SCHOTEL, O.-Holl. Huisg. 351 [1868].
? In toep. op groenteschotels van sla, postelein, spinazie. || Die oude
menschen (moeten) scuwen ... coude wermoesen als latue, porceleyne ende dier
ghelijcke, Tregement der ghesontheyt b iv v? [1514]. Hij roert er in (in de
spinazie); hij vindt twee achterpooten Van d' armen kikvorsch, onder 't
warmoes kort gehakt, STARING 4, 125 [c. 1824].
? Ook in toep. op een gerecht van o.a. witte kool, melk en vleesch.  Vgl.
voor een derg. gerecht GROENMOES (Dl. V, 848 e.v.). || Warmoes die goed is,
word gekookt van 2 Mengelen Melk, 11/2 groote witte Kool, 1/2 kop
haverdegort en 1/2 ? Tarwenmeel; 't vlees en worst is na elks verkiezing,
BOEKENOOGEN [1897]. Volgens oude keukenrekeningen behoorden ook warmoes (uit
kool, melk en spek samengesteld), rechte "kermiskost", "koecken van eijeren
en poffenbroodt" enz. ... tot het derde gerecht, SCHOTEL, O.-Holl. Huisg.
325 [ed. 1904].
? Geklonterd warmoes, groenteschotel met stukjes spek en/of  vleesch erin
(?). || Het eerste gherecht ... Daer droncken zy toe goe claer Delfs wijn,
Daer was gheclontert warmoes by, Spierinck en Pos en stock-visch oock,
Bloem-Hof v.d. Ned. Ieught 188 a [ed. 1610].
? In toep. op een moes van populierebladeren, als geneesmiddel. Vgl.  voor
de geneesk. toep. van de bladeren en knoppen van een populier b.v. ook  Mnl.
W. i.v. popelbotte en -knoppe, alsmede  POPULIERZALF (Dl. XII2 , 3476). ||
Rasent hi (de pati?nt) oec luttel op, salmen hem saluen die borst met oly
die is ghemaect van fiolen ende hi sal eten warmoes dat van pople ghemaect
is met smoute, in BRAEKMAN, Mnl. Recepten 150 [begin 16de e.].
? Kort, resp. lang warmoes, groenteschotel van fijn  gehakte, resp. in zijn
geheel of grof gesneden gekookte groente (?), dan wel  een derg. gerecht van
een korte dan wel een lange soort groente. Vgl. in dit  verband ook de 3de
aanh., waarin het woord historiseerend wordt gebruikt, de  eerste maal
echter in de verb. koud warmoes (of is dit te lezen als  kort warmoes ?). ||
Op Dinghsdagh des middaeghs tot voor-spijs, kort Warmoes, groen ofte van
Kool, voor het tweede Gericht, gesprenght ofte gesouten Vleesch enz., Gr.
Placaetb. 1, 297 [1631]. Op Vrydagen des middaeghs tot voor-spijs, graeu
Erreweten, Knollen ofte Kool, langh Warmoes zijnde gestooft, voor het tweede
gericht Visch, 1, 298 [1631]. Doorgaans bestond het eerste geregt uit de
potagie, b.v. uit groene of graauwe erwten met boter en ajuin, ... tweebak
of grutten gestoofd, koud warmoes met kool gestoofd, langwarmoes, groene
erwten met boter doorregen of overgoten enz., SCHOTEL, O.-Holl. Huisg. 349
[1868].
? In een woordspeling met de gedachte aan de bet. ?lijdzaamheid,  geduld?
van pati?ntie, dat ook dient als ben. voor een soort zuring  (vgl. Dl. XII1,
786). || Yder man kan een quaed wijf regeeren, behalven die-ze heeft. Wat
raed dan voor een, die een tafel zoo gheschotelt heeft? niet beter, als een
warmoes van patientie, op de maghe, te leggen, DE BRUNE, Bank. 2, 322
[1658].
? In een zinspeling in toep. op de schotel linzen, voor welke Esau zijn
eerstgeboorterecht verkocht aan zijn jongeren broeder Jakob (Gen. 25,
29-34). || Honger is toch een scherp zwaard, en er zijn van ouds voorbeelden
voorhanden, dat sommige lieden ... wel eens al hun geluk en welvaart voor
een potje warmoes verkocht hebben, FOKKE, B.R. 2, 53 [1809].
b) In 't bijz. in toep. op een met water (of melk) tot soep  verdund
gerecht; groentesoep. || Pottagie oft warmoes. Neemt cruyt daertoe dienende,
moescruyt, doeget wat in heet water dan schervet cleyne, daer na vrivet wel
in eenen mortier enz., VORSELMAN, Coock Boeck (ed. COCKX-INDESTEGE) 120
[1560]. Somma om den honger te stoppen van alle gerande groene cruijden, die
men aen die vesten ofte wallen hebben conen crijghen, heeft men waermoes af
gemaeckt, VERWER, Memoriaelb. 103 [1573]. Wy gaven ons volc ... ses mutsgens
water, en koockten een groote ketel warmoes van dat groene kruyt als
tuynkars ..., daer van het volc merckelijcke baet ende verquickinge creghen
teghen het scheurbuyck, O.-I. e. W.-I. Voyag. 9, 165 [1600]. Klaer waerje,
had' jet graen, slegs tot de rysten-bry! Ajuin, en kool en spek, goet kruit
is tot het wer'mis, En wermis kermis-kost; voorseker is het kermis; Jae
kermis in de kroft; men byt 'er in de worst, OUDAAN, Po?zy 2, 137 [1646].
Warmoes, voor de Vasten hoe men die maaken zal. Neemt allerhande
moeskruiden, hoe jonger hoe beeter, en verleest en wascht die wel enz.,
Holl. Keukenm. 132 [1746]. Warmoes die goed is, word gekookt van 2 Mengelen
Melk, 11/2 groote witte Kool, 1/2 kop haverdegort en 1/2 ? Tarwenmeel enz.,
in BOEKENOOGEN [eind 18de e.].
c) In eenige spreekw., fig. uitdr. en zegsw.
? Het zal een vreemde warmoes zijn, het zal een verwarden  toestand geven,
een janboel, een rommeltje worden. || Coempt laet ons gaen den blinden
leyen! Eer dat wy schyen salt noch een vremdt wermes syn: alst regent en die
son schynt moet in die helle kermes syn, Hass. Sp. 33 [2de h. 16de e.].
? Kool is kost en warmoes is eten, zie voor de bet. KOOL  (II) (Dl. VII2,
5349). In de 2de aanh. met de toevoeging dat staat in den  Bijbel
geschreven. || Kool is kost, en warmoes is eten, HARREB. 1, 186 b [1858].
Kool is kost en warmoes is eten, dat staat in de bijbel geschreven,
BOEKENOOGEN 2, Aanh. 1 (ed. 1971) [1930].
? Die op warmoes drinkt, verkrenkt zijn maag. || Die op pottage, of
warm-moes drinct, Verkrenct zijn maegh' meer als hy dinct, DE BRUNE,
Spreeckw. 169 [1636]. HARREB. 2, 44 a [1861].
? In eenige zegsw. waarin sprake is van het voor de eerste maal eten  van
warmoes, ter uitdr. van een zeer jongen leeftijd.
     Van dat hij zijn eerste warmoes at, vanaf heel jongen  leeftijd, nl.
van het moment af dat hij overging van de moedermelk op gewoon  voedsel; van
kindsbeen af. || Van dat hi sijn eerste wermoes adt, SERVILIUS 1, b [1543].
HARREB. 2, 436 b [1861].
     Die hun eerste warmoes eten hebben nog geen gesloten  hersenpan, bij
hen is de fontenel nog niet gesloten, zij zijn dus nog zeer  jong. || Die
haer eerste warmoes noch eten, en hebben de herssen-pan noch niet gesloten,
BURGHOORN, N. Wer. v. Gecken 60 [1641]. HARREB. 3, CXXIII a [1870].
? Gij zult gestooten warmoes eten. || Ghy sult gestoten wermoes eten,
SARTORIUS III, 10, 41 [1561]. DE BRUNE, Spreeckw. 469 [1636]. Gij zult
gestooten warmoes eten. Men zegt dit tot een' hongerig' mensch; omdat de
hongerige alles eet, wat hij krijgen kan, HARREB. 2, 436 b [1861].
? Verhapt u niet in uw warmoes, neem niet meer op je dan je  aankunt, of:
neem er niet te veel van (gezegd als er maar weinig is). Vgl.  verhappen, 2)
(Dl. XIX, 2393). || Verhapt v niet in v warmmoes, SARTORIUS I, 6, 90 [1561].
? In toep. waarin iem. of iets vergeleken wordt met warmoes zonder  spek,
ter uitdr. van armelijkheid, armzaligheid. || De honderste Penningen hebben
de Juffers, die niet ryk waaren, doen aanzien als warmoes zonder spek, en
daarom kregen zy geen naalde op haar compas, DOEDYNS, Merc. 1, 137 [1697].
Dat is warmoes zonder spek. Men zegt in gelijken zin: Het is mager moesje
zonder spek, HARREB. 3, XCII b [1870].
? In een zegsw. met als bet.: van den een slikt men alles en van den  ander
niet het geringste. || Zij zouden den een het warmoes wel uit de tanden
likken, en den ander gunnen ze niet, dat hij het uitwerpt, HARREB. 3,
CLXXVIII a [1870].
? In eenige zegsw. met als bet.: haastige spoed is zelden goed. || Weest
niet alte haestich ende hettich in v waermoes, SARTORIUS I, 1, 33 [1561]. Hy
is dick alte haestich in sijn warmmoes, II, 4, 61 [1561]. Ghy sijt alte
haestich in wermoes, III, 3, 92 [1561].
? Hij likt zijn vingers zoo smakelijk als een boer, die warmoes  eet. ||
HARREB. 1, 71 a [1858].
? Water op je warmoes en met bloote beenen naar bed, als  schertsende
bedreiging voor kinderen. || BOEKENOOGEN 2, Aanh. 1, 515 b (ed. 1971)
[1930].
Afl. ? Warmoezenier, -zerij, -zier (zie die woorden).
Samenst. en samenst. afl. Als tweede lid o.a. in:  kervel-, knol-, kool-,
lang-, roerwarmoes.
Als eerste lid in: warmoesbol, gehaktbal bestaande uit gehakte  groente,
vleesch e.d., of bol van een bolgewas of bolvormige groente (ui,  kool e.d.)
(?); vgl. in dezen laatsten zin BOL (I) (Dl. III1, 286). || Frederick de
Voocht van Rijneveld, dolle, Van bontwerckers ende brouwers zijt ghy
gekomen, U over-oude-moeder sat t'Amsterdam, verkocht warmoesbollen, Hoe
zydy nu dus uytgenomen, Dat ghy van de Coenroetsen wout zijn geacht? in V.
VLOTEN, Geschiedz. 1, 192 [1528].
? Warmoeseter, die warmoes eet; in de aanh. (in het mv.) als  scheldnaam
voor de inwoners van Koolkerke (W.-Vl.). || Adieu oock ... RoomEters van
moerbeke, ghy zonder Poer ende WaermoesEters van coolkercke snelle Adieu, DE
DENE, Test. in Jaarb. "De Fonteine" 29, 209 [1560].
? Warmoesgilde, gilde der warmoeziers. || Deecken ende Hooftman van het
Warmoes-gilden binnen Leyden, BORT, Dom. 50 b [c. 1670].
? Warmoesgroen, zekere groentestoofschotel. || De schaffmeester wert
gehouden dagelycx ten behoorlycken uyren ... aen te rechten: ... Op
Dynsdagen des middachs tot voorspijs kort warmoesgroen ofte van kool, R.G.P.
29, 273 * [1631].
? Warmoeshof. 1?. Groentetuin, moestuin. || KIL. [1588]. V. DALE [1872 ?]. ?
Hyer bij is oeck ene wermoes hoff vol ghaten ende holen, daer oock veel
heiligen hoer selven in verburghen hadden tempore passionis, in Bijdr.
Gesch. Bisd. Haarlem 11, 91 [1525]. Wy sullen ... beghinnen te beschrijuen
de Houen, en ten alder eersten den Warmoes hof, de welcke afghedeylt ende
gheschickt is gheweest neffens den Cruydt-hof, STEVENS en LIEBAUT, Landtw.
180 [1582]. Dat mijne Heeren van den Gerechte ... interdiceren ende
verbieden ... eenige erven te hoogen in eeniger manieren ...: uyt geseyt 't
hogen van ... Warmoes-hoven, ende 't stellen van Ramen, Handv. v. Amst. 1008
a [1589]. De Netele des Zees, op hare styve lippen End over t'gladde lijf
een schadelijcken brand End heete cole draeght, die op de stoute hand Een
vier'ghe bleyn' ontsteeckt, als in de warm-moes hoven Het cruyd'ken Roer-my-
niet, een vier niet om verdoven In sijn groen bladen voedt, V. BORSSELEN,
Strande 32 [1611]. Warmoes, Ajuyn, Wortelen ..., en alle andere diergelijcke
Vruchten, die men in Warmoes- Hoven gewoon is te teelen, BORT, Dom. 50 b [c.
1670]. Eenen woonhuijse, stallinghe, schuere, met voordere Edificien ende
gronde van Erve dyer met den Warmoeshof, in GOOSSENAERTS [1778].
     2?. Boomgaard (?). Vgl. ook de volg. alinea. || Inden yersten de hoeve
te wetene huysinghe met schuere etc metten wermoes hoff oft bogaert, in
GOOSSENAERTS [1539].
     Hierbij: warmoeshofboomgaard, combinatie van groentetuin en  boomgaard
(?). || Al tgunt, dat licht ... noortwart lancx den wech tot Coppen int
warmoeshofboomgart ende vandaer streckende noortwart uuyt voorby Adriaen van
der Hoogens boomgaert, R.G.P. 54, 640 [1546].
? Warmoesketel. Zie Dl. VII1 , 2506.
? Warmoeskom, kom om warmoes uit te eten. || 4 Mostert potten, 10 warmoes
commentjes, 1 lampet, 2 trechters, 1 waterpot, 2 half pintjes, 17 stuck
silvere lepels ende een beecker enz., Dagreg. S. Jorge da Mina 370 [1645].
? Warmoeskoopster, groenteverkoopster, -vrouw. Alleen in de wdb.
aangetroffen. || HALMA [1778]. KUIPERS [1901].
? Warmoeskop, soepkop. || Wy creghen van haer (zekere inboorlingen) een
Warmoescop, en een Schotel seer grof, met root en groen gheschildert, 't was
Porceleyn, daer zy seer licht afscheydeden, Ontdekkingsr. v. Le Maire en
Schouten 1, 88 [1616]. 16 Groote holle commen, 33 quaert en warmoescoppen, 6
cleyne pimpeltgens enz., Econ.-Hist. Jaarb. 10, 180 [1622].
? Warmoeskruid, (blad)groente. || JUNIUS, Nomencl. 130 a [1567]. HEREMANS
[1869]. ? Ende dieghene, die mit warmoescruyt ende diergelijcke groene
wairen ter marct comen, sullen staen in gaerde noortwaerts upgaende,
Rechtsbr. v. Gouda 362 [1521]. Dog alles was buyten des tijts, vermits het
nu somer alhier begonde te werden ..., soodat wij tot onse ververschinge
niet anders dan warmoeskruyden en wat wortelen en artisocken konden krijgen
bij dese tijd des jaers, J.M. V. RIEBEECK, Br. 47 [1676]. Van alle de
Warmoes-Kruiden, die Rechttydig in deeze Maand zyn, is de Zuuring zekerlyk
een van de beste, zynde Bloedzuiverende en verquikkende, Holl. Huyshoudster
89 [c. 1780].
? Warmoesland, (stuk) land, waar groenten, moeskruiden geteeld  worden. ||
HEXHAM [1678]. V. DALE [1872 ?]. ? Een stuckgen warmoeslandt, groot omtrent
een hondt, by den hoop zonder maet, gelegen in Leyderdorp, Kenningb. Leiden
1, 47 [1570]. Alle Erven, Boomgaerden, Kruyt-hoven, Speel-hoven,
Warmoes-landen ..., vande welcke eenige Vruchten ofte Inkomsten ghetrocken
worden, Gr. Placaetb. 1, 1528 [1635]. Rontomme becinghelt zijnde, met
ontelbaere Lust-hoven ofte Thuynen ..., schoone hooge Weylanden, groene
Beemden, goede Coorn-landen, Warmoes-landen, ORLERS, Beschr. v. Leyden 3
[1641]. Het (is) ook beter, dat men de akkers der Warmoes-landen in het
voor- als in het na-jaer spit, DE LA COURT V.D. VOORT, Landh. 311 [1737].
Biljet van verhuring van warmoeslanden door gemelden Heer van Schagen,
Bijdr. Gesch. Bisd. Haarlem 4, 397 [1876].
? Warmoesman (-lieden, -luiden). 1?. Persoon die groenten  teelt voor den
verkoop; warmoezier, hovenier, tuinder. In de 5de aanh. mog.  ook in den zin
van: iemand die den tuin van een ander aanlegt en/of  onderhoudt; tuinman,
tuinbaas (vgl. hovenier, 2) (Dl. VI, 1205). || KIL. [1599]. ? Item ontf. van
Evert, die wermoesman, van dat hy Jonge Dirck angeseyt heeft, dat hy sijn
loon onthouden hadde, die twiedeel van 2 R. gld., facit 35 sc. 4 d. 8 m.,
R.G.P. 14, 212 [1502]. Ende de ruychte zal men mede wech moeten doen precyes
v??r deselve tijdt ende die zal men mogen brengen in de put achter de Waegh.
Welcke ruychte oock de warmoesluyden in de geheele weeck duer noch sullen mo
eten brengen, eer dat sij van de marct scheijden, bij BIK, Medisch Lev. 511
[1614]. Ick (moet) alhier mede gedencken het Gilde vande Warmoesluyden, het
welcke alhier veel grooter ende meerder is als in eenige gebuyr-steden,
ORLERS, Beschr. v. Leyden 264 [1641]. De Warmoeslieden (Hoveniers)
(opschrift), J. GAILLIARD, Amb. en Ner. Brugge 2, 181 [1854].
     2?. Soms ook: boomkweeker. || Is gheconsenteert tot verzoucke ende
begheerte van alle die wermoesluyden, die eynten ende jonge bomen jairlicx
teelen, ende carreluyden, dat enz., Rechtsbr. v. Gouda 240 [1521].
? Warmoesmand, groentemand. || Een Vlaems spinwieltgen mit een ander
spinwieltgen; 8 warmoesmanden, zoe nyeuwt als out; een visthon; 5 haspelen
enz., R.G.P. 140, 527 [1585].
? Warmoesmarkt, groentemarkt. || PALUDANUS 5 d [1544]. WEIDENBACH [1808]. ?
Alhier scheyden haer drie wegen, een na der Chinesen cramen, den tweeden nae
de groen oft Warmoes merckt, ende de derde na de vleesch merckt, O.-I. e.
W.-I. Voyag. 2, 44 c [1598]. C.P. HOOFT, Mem. en Adv. 2, 367 [1605].
? Warmoesnering, groentehandel. || Geen warmoes-neeringe, noch oock eenige
leveringe van eenigerhande warmoes-vruchten ... te doen, Keuren v. Leyden 76
[ed. 1658].
? Warmoespot. 1?. Pot om groente (met evt. toevoegsels) in te  koken of
stoven. || Die man sal alle sijne kleederen nemen, sijn gordel, sijn harnas
..., een spade, sijn warmoespot den besten sonder een, een lepel ende mes,
bij V. AELST, Oudewater 500 [c. 1510]. Een grooten ende cleynen (koperen)
wermoespot, in WEYNS, Volkshuisraad in Vl. 428 [1539].
     (Spreekw.) Kleine warmoespotjes preutelen ook, hoe gering of
onbelangrijk een spotter ook is, zijn spot kan toch groote schade
aanrichten. || Het heeft v gelust met dit Concilie (t.w. dat van Trente) ...
uwen spot te houden, ende de gheheele authoriteyt vant Concilie te
ver-blaesen (want kleyn warm-moes potkens preutelen oock), REINERI, Verantw.
21 [1605].
     In een zei-spreuk. || Elk wat, (sey de Warmoespot) dan heeft niemand te
klagen, Lyste v. Rar. 1, 210 [1706]. HARREB. 2, 196 a [1861].
     2?. Stoofschotel van groente (met evt. toevoegsels);  groentestoverij.
|| Baasje van Schaagen, Doet de Ste?gang voor zyn Wyf ...; Wyl zyn Vrouw hem
t'huis verbeid, En de Warmoespot bereid, V. GYZEN, Verm. Buitenlev. 51
[1716].
? Warmoesschotel. || Item dat nyemant wermoesschotelen, souzieren,
soutvaten, maten, trejoren, stroylpotten ofte schelen van steenen, pothens
maecken en sal dan van stoff geheyten graauw teen, in Ambachtsg. 's-Hert. 1,
399 [1503]. In de bottelarie: 3 plateelkens ..., 2 warmoesschotelen, ende
een cleyn keteltgen, R.G.P. 141, 142 [1568].
? Warmoesschuit, boot voor het vervoeren van groente (naar de  markt);
snebschuit. || Voor ider Schutting (zal) betaelt moeten werden als volgt:
Van een vlot, of dubbelde modderschuyt 2 st. ... Een Warmoes of Snebschuyt 1
st., Handv. v. Amst. 319 b [1697].
? Warmoessop, groentesoep. || BINNART [1654]. POMEY [1760]. ? Moes, oft
groen vverm-moes-sop, het vvelck bestaet in een menghelingh van tien oft
meer verscheyde cruyden, V. STERBEEK, Toon. d. Campern. ** 3 [1675].
? Warmoestiend, de tiend die op groenten geheven werd. || De Sententie van
den Hove van Hollandt ..., daer by dat de Ingelanden van de Made buyten
Delft gecondemneert zyn ... Warmoesthienden te betaelen, BORT, Dom. 50 a [c.
1670].
? Warmoestuin, groentetuin, moestuin. || SEWEL [1691]. V. DALE [1872 ?]. ?
Men (en sal) geen erven buyten deser Stede van St. Antonis poort zuyd-waerts
totte Haerlemmer dijck toe binnen de vryheyt deser stede gelegen mogen
hoogen, uytgeseyt alleen de warmoes ende kruyd-tuynen, omme warmoes ofte
kruyd te gekrijgen, Handv. v. Amst. 1006 b [1553]. Een Warmoestuyn met de
Wooninge daar op staande, Amst. Secret. 42 [ed. 1737]. De warmoestuinen aan
beide zijden van de Steenstraat (te Leiden), FRUIN, Geschr. 2, 403 [1874].
? Warmoestuinder, groenteteler. || Oft nyet oirbaer waere ..., dat 't
Waeterpoortgen over die Lastaige, mitsgaders Jan Roodenpoorte, tot geryeff
van den bleycksters, warmoesthuynders ende anderen, geopent werde, R.G.P.
69, 399 [1578].
? Warmoesverkooper, -ster. || PALUDANUS 34 c [1544]. V.D. ENDE [1695].
KUIPERS [1901].
? Warmoesvrouw, groentevrouw, groenteverkoopster. Vgl.  -wijf. || MARIN
[1701]. WEIDENBACH [1808].
? Warmoesvruchten (mv.), de versch. soorten groenten, moeskruid. || Dat van
nu voortaen geene persoonen ... hen sullen mogen vervorderen eenige
Warmoes-vrugten over den Over-toom van het eene Schip in 't ander te
verbomen, Handv. v. Amst. 350 b [1618]. De Warmoes-vruchten, werden vercocht
aen de Noordt-zijde van den nieuwen Rhijn, beginnende aen de Coornbrugge,
ORLERS, Beschr. v. Leyden 275 [1641]. De Vroetschap der Stad Utrecht
interdiceert, ende verbiet by deesen, by provisie alle en een jegelyk,
woonende buyten de duysent roeden, ... binnen deese Stad te ... verkoopen,
anders als op de weekelykse marktdagen, eenige warmoes- ofte aard-vruchten,
Placaatb. v. Utr. 3, 818 a [1653]. Dat geen warmoes en boom-vrugten
tiendbaer zijn, ten zy imant speciael geregtigt zy, V. ZURCK, Cod. Bat. 715
a [1711]. Die geenen, die met hunne Warmoesvruchten op dezelve Markt zouden
wllen voorstaan, N. Ned. Jaerb. 1780, 750 [1780].
? Warmoeswijf, groentevrouw, -verkoopster. || LAMBRECHT [1546]. WEIDENBACH
[1808]. ? Soe gebiedt den heeren van de Gerechte, dat alle die warmoeswijven
... van stonden an alle bladen dat zij van den wortelen ende cool vergaderen
ende ofsnijden, dat zij alle die bladen ende anders van der vuylnisse voir
him nemen ende wechdoen, bij BIK, Medisch Lev. 102 [1527]. Warmoes-wijfs,
die op de marckt voort staen met alderhande groenlijckheydt, Hist. v. Corn.
Adr. 1, 94 [1569]. Sy (de olifanten) hebben voor een manier dat sy dickwils
op die mercten gaen, daermen alle groenicheyt vercoopt ... ende die dan den
Olyphant goetgunstich is, werpt hem wat voor: Onder ander wasser een van
dese vercoopsters, ende Warmoes-wijf, die altoos den Olyphant wat voor wierp
vant geen datse hadde, V. LINSCHOTEN, Itiner. 69 b [1596].

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 28 22:44:11 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:44:11 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2004.07.28 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.154411.0700.>

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From: Roger Hondshoven 2 <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2004.07.27 (05) [A/E]

Hi,

J.L. Pauwels was indeed a great lecturer at the KUL, Leuven (Belgium), but
as far as I know he passed away somewhere in the seventies.

Kind regards,

Roger Hondshoven


From: HALLS Haeng-Cho <zzhhalls at student.uq.edu.au>
Subject:

 Re "negation", I would like to add that in 1958 Dr. J. L. Pauwels
published
> a very fine article titled "De expletieve ontkenning nie(t) aan het einde
> van de zin in het Zuidnederlands en het Afrikaans"

Baie dankie hiervoor, Luc. U inset het ongetwyveld kol getref!

> Afrikaners (or is that "Afrikaansers" these days?),

Well, we say (& have fore some time) ' Afrikaan - Afrikane' for an African
or Africans, covering any nation from Nama to Amazig, 'Afrikaner -
Afrikaners' for ourselves, & 'Afrikander - Afrikanders' for a local breed of
draught cattle. The difference between 'Afrikaner' & 'Afrikander' can stir
up quite as much heat here as the difference between 'Scots' & 'Scotch' (I
duck). The word 'Afrikaanses' (Afrikaans ones) would be an appropriate
extrapolation needed on the spur of the moment to differentiate, for
example, in a party, between those who speak Afrikaans & those who do not.

> Don't you also use the tag _... n??_ or _... n??_ where English uses tag
> questions ("..., isn't it?", "..., don't you?" etc.)

Hey! Is that the same Dr. J. L. Pauwels I had for linguistics at Monash Uni
in the mid 90s? Great Lecturer, by the way

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 28 22:45:24 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:45:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.28 (10) [E]
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From: Frank Verhoft <frank.verhoft at skynet.be>
Subject: resources

Hi Troy, Ron, all

First of all many thanks to Ron and Troy for the clarifying replies!!

Troy:
<<<In English at least "Pelasgian" generally refers to the pre-Greek
inhabitants of Greece and Anatolia. The surviving loan-words and place names
that made their way into Classical Greek indicate the language(s) was/were
non-Indo-European (thus excluding Hittite and related Anatolian
languages).<<<

Ron:
<<<I suppose this is why the author "so-called" (expressing disagreement)
before "Pelasgian," assumedly because the name had come to be used for an
Italic group.<<<

Oops, it was me who added the "so-called" before Pelasgian, but indeed
expressing disagreement:
- "pael. = paelignisch" [=? so-called Pelasgian].

I knew the term Pelasgian only in the sense Troy uses it too, but if i'm not
wrong, there are a lot of problems with it.

Anyway, most has been clarified, still struggling a bit with Francks "beir."
("bair." in Fick's dictionary) vs.  Francks "beierl."

Thnaks again,

Frank

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Wed Jul 28 23:52:42 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:52:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (11) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.165242.0700.>

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From: Roger Hondshoven 2 <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (03) [E]

Hello Ron,

In Brabant the word  " hof " is used in the meaning of garden. The noun is
masculine, as opposed to "hof" in general Dutch, which is neuter and has the
meaning of 'royal court'. In Middle Dutch the word 'hof' was used as
masculine and neuter in both meanings. The original meaning was probably
"enclosed space" (just like "tuin") and later on some kind of "dwelling"
inhabited by a farmer - at one end of the social ladder - or by a noble lord
at the other end. The word was known in all other old Germanic language
varieties in similar meanings.

Kind regards,

Roger Hondshoven

----------

From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (03) [E]

In Westflemish a "tuun" is a (wooden) fence. "Een Hof" is a garden.
Another strange specific westflemish word is "lochting" denoting more
specifically a vegetable garden.
We only speak about "Bogaard"( we might remember the actor Dirk Bogarde, who
was of Westflemish origin, whose real name was Vandenbogaerde) for
"Boom-gaard" .
Meaning a sort of fenced  garden (with hedges) with only trees (bomen), in
fact referring to an orchard. By the way, what might be the etymology of
"orchard"?

Denis Dujardin
West-Flanders

----------

From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (08) [D/E]

Indeed, the root of Garden and Garder in French is the same. It is a piece
of land, that has been enclosed from the rest of the landscape, with as a
consequence, that it has to be guarded against the rest of the environment.
It is intersting to see the connotation which lies behind. Here is a
connotation of protection, whereas in Russian f.e. it is translated by
"Sad" - the stem being related to the neutral verb of sedith. To settle, to
sit.

In Danish the Garden is a "have". In Dutch we have the expression " ze
vetrokken met have en goed" , meaning "they left for an unknown destination,
taking with them everything which was valuable for them. The word have as
such is not used anymore. Only in this expression.

Denis Dujardin
West-Flanders

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, guys!

Aren't we the busy little etymology bees today?  ;-)

One of our very own favorite West Flemings, Denis Dujardin (perhaps a
Gallicization of *van den Gaerde by any chance?), wrote:

> In Danish the Garden is a "have". In Dutch we have the expression " ze
vetrokken
> met have en goed" , meaning "they left for an unknown destination, taking
with them
> everything which was valuable for them. The word have as such is not used
anymore.
> Only in this expression.

I wonder if that has a different origin, Denis.  (Besides, this Danish _-v-_
is derived from _-g-_, thus relationship with Dutch/Afrikaans/Saxon _haag_
and English _haw_.)  This Dutch _have_ -- probably quite archaic, if not a
specialized, nativized loan from German _Hab(e)_ -- may have something to do
with 'to have', Dutch _hebben_.  The same saying exists in German _(sie
verzogen) mit Hab und Gut_ 'They moved (on) with all that they owned'.
_Habe_ (related to _haben_ 'to have') is still a used noun meaning
"belongings" or "(entire) property."  Old Saxon has _hava_ and Middle Saxon
_have_ in the same sense.  I'm not aware of the use of expected Modern Saxon
*_have_ ~ _haav'_ though.

German _Gut_ (related to _gut_ 'good') here means 'estate', pretty much the
equivalent of English "estate" in all contexts.  Old Saxon has _g?d_, Middle
Saxon _g?d_ and Modern Saxon _goud_ (<God>, <Good>) with the same meaning.

> In Westflemish a "tuun" is a (wooden) fence.

Interesting!  Just like Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _tuun_!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 29 00:16:06 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:16:06 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (12) [D/E]
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From: Peter Snepvangers <snepvangers at optushome.com.au>
Subject: Etymology


Dank U Wel Ron en allemaal.
Ik heb gedachte naar het verbinding van Tuin en Town maar niet van Hof en
Court. Daar is heel veel aardig kennis op deze lage lander lijst.
All this talk about groentetuin has made me hungry so I am off to eat my
breakfast.
Tot Siens
Peter S
snepvangers at optushome.com.au

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

You're more than welcome, Pete!

> All this talk about groentetuin has made me hungry so I am off to eat my
breakfast.

And it's almost time for my dinner (here American for "tea") on the day
before.

Groeten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 29 14:32:36 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 07:32:36 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.29 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUL.2004.073236.0700.>

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Resources

Beste Frank,

"Beierlands" refers to the language spoken in Beierland, an area just south
of Rotterdam (the Netherlands), not at all to Bavaria.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 29 14:49:38 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 07:49:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.29 (02) [A/D/E]
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUL.2004.074938.0700.>

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From: Liza du Plooy <lizaduplooy at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (02) [E/Italian]


Middag almal

Mark het geskryf:
"We say, 'Geen sant in sy eie land.' It is a straight quote from the Bible,
&
the English says, 'A prophet is not without honour, except in his own
country.' Jesus was quoting a Jewish expression.

In Afrikaans 'sant' means saint, but it is rarely used. We have a preference
for 'heilige', as we do for all terms & roots of Teutonic origin.
However, the application of the expression is fairly loose. A young man may
be held in great respect, except in his own household, & if he notes this,
someone will quote that at him.
There are many such words in Afrikaans that survive only in 'old saws', like
this. Another is 'ros en ruiter', meaning 'horse & rider', though the ag
Afrikaans for 'horse' is 'perd' "

As kind het ek altyd gedink die spreekwoord lui "geen sand in sy eie land"
en was vasoortuig dat dit na mense in die re?nwoude verwys. Dit was 'n
redelike ontnugtering toe ma my verduidelik het dat dit sant met 'n t is.
:-)

I've never heard the expression "ros en ruiter" myself that I can remember,
but I do of course know the word "roskam" which I knew had something to do
with a horse. According to my (horrible) Afrikaans/English dictionary:
Roskam (W) : currycomb (horse); criticise severely.
Of course now I am tickled to know what the word for horse is in other
lowlands languages!

Liza du Plooy

----------

From: Liza du Plooy <lizaduplooy at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (11) [E]


Denis wrote:
"In Danish the Garden is a "have". In Dutch we have the expression " ze
vetrokken met have en goed" , meaning "they left for an unknown destination,
taking with them everything which was valuable for them. The word have as
such is not used anymore. Only in this expression."

Running with the idea that gardens are safe and enclosed places, would the
Afrikaanse word "hawe" (harbour) be related at all?

Liza du Plooy

----------

From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (08) [D/E]

>From: GoodbyColumbus at aol.com <GoodbyColumbus at aol.com>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (07) [D/E]
>
>In a message dated 7/28/04 3:54:27 PM Central Daylight Time,
>lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net writes:
>
>  If I am not mistaken, English "guard," "ward," and "warden" also come
from
>  the same root as "garden" and "yard."
>
>Yes, but by way of Old French "guarder" (garder), Old North French
'warder',
>both of Teutonic origin.
>
>Here's another etymology I found, Old French 'gardin' (F. jardin), of
>Teutonic origin as well.

yard, garden, hort- are from IE 'gher' to grasp, enclose.  ward, warden,
guard, guardian are from IE 'wer' percieve, watch out for.

David Barrow

----------

From: Mari Sarv <mari at haldjas.folklore.ee>
Subject: "Etymology"

> From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
> Subject: etymology
>
> Hi Lowlanders,
>
> In dutch there is this expression : "geen sant in eigen land", meaning
> "no one is a prophet in his own country".
> The word "sant" is fascinating. I know that in Swedish, "det ?r sant" ,
> means, "it is true".
> Can anybody refer me to other words in other Lowland languages that
> might contain the same stem or have the same meaning?
>
> Denis Dujardin
> West-Flanders

In Estonian "sant" (<LS) means 'people who are going around in
*st*-martins and st-catherins eve ("mardisant", "kadrisant") and on other
similar occasions; they are singing and dancing and *getting some food* in
each house'.But in other days it means 'beggar', most commonly 'crippled'.

Mari Sarv

----------

From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (11) [E]

About Boom-gaard or Orchard. I have to make a correction.
Our Orchards in Flanders are mainly with hedges. Originally with hawthorn:
later and now mainly with privet (Ligustrum).
This is not necessaraly the main typology of orchards. They might also be
"open" of course.

Does anybody allready have a reference about "lochting", which is more
widespread then Westflemish?

Denis Dujardin

----------

From: HALLS Haeng-Cho <zzhhalls at student.uq.edu.au>
Subject:


I'm wondering if that word lochting is somehow related to the German word
Lichtung in the sense of a `clearing' in a forest?

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Etymology

Beste li?glanners,

Another interesting word for "garden" is the popular Flemish term
"lochting", "lochten" < Middle Dutch "lochtuun" ~ older English "leighton",
Old English "l?ac-t?n". Litterally the word means "look-tuin" (D),
"leek-town" *s*. De Vries says that "look" (ranging from allium to garlic to
chives) was held in high regard, according to old Norwegian runes.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: Wim <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (12) [D/E]

From: wk at home.nl  wim verdoold, zwolle  nl

Hoi allemaal,

over gaarrde, tuin , hof   wat me te binnen schiet, ik zag dat russisch
genoemd werd...het  russische woord voor  stad is....Grad...   en dat
sluit weer aan bij gaarde.
En het noorse woord voor boerderij?  Ik zag in noorwegen vaak bordjes
met gardstun staan als de weg langs een boerderij liep.

Tuin zaun town, t??n, tuin, en in het ijslands, bestaat het woord ook
weer.

Hartelijke groeten uit Zwolle,

Wim.

http://members.home.nl/wkv/index.html

---------

From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (12) [D/E]

About "gard". We cannot forget metionning the famous traditional Swedsih
fence called the "G?rdsgard", sounding like a pleonasm (guarding the
garden.......).
See it at  www.abo.fi/~mabjork/ bakgrundsbilder.htm    for its newer version
and on     www.roslagen.nu/ handelser.html    for its more older traditional
form.

Denis Dujardin
West-Flanders.

----------

From: Markus Haverkamp <mjhaverkamp at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (05) [E]


"yard" seems to be a dialect varient of "garden". These words are, however,
not of the same root as "ward" and "guard". Of the latter two words, the
former is of German origin, whereas the latter is a formerly French
loan-word that was brought into the English language through the Normans.

Markus

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Etymology

Folks,

As you can see, a lot of etymologizing action greeted me this morning as I
was opening my mailbox.  It's so nice to hear some of the more rarely heard
voices!  (Dag, Liza! Tere, Mari!)

And a special _Willkamen_ and _Moin_ to you, Markus, a new subscriber!
Great to see you participating already (and doing everything correctly,
including not leaving out the subject ...).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 29 15:22:46 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:22:46 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.29 (03) [E]
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From: Hugo Zweep <hugo.zweep at valuersillawarra.com.au>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (12) [D/E]

Peter and Ron
After all that, all I can say is "struth" or even "strewth" since the
spelling, from my observation, seems to be optional.

You will notice that I use the word "struth" as an exclamation of surprise
which is the only way I have ever heard or used it.

Regards
Hugo Zweep

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Yeah, Hugo, I think "Strewth!" is predominantly, if not only, used as an
expression of surprise these days.

Another thing, folks:

I'm wondering about place names occurring in idiomatic expressions.  Here is
an example from Lowlands Saxon (Low German): _na Holland (gaan)_ (<na
Holland (gahn)> "to go to Holland") or _na R?tterdam (gaan)_ (<na R?tterdam
(gahn)> "to go to Rotterdam") meaning 'to die'; e.g., _dey s?nd al lang na
Holland/R?tterdam_ 'they have been dead for a long time'.

I am not sure if it is just a replacement expression for 'to die', thus
avoiding the dreaded word, or if it is considered somewhat irreverant by
some.  It does not actually sound vulgar to me the way "to kick the bucket"
or "to bite the dust" would sound to me.  It just seems like one of those
"colorful," fanciful expressions.

My theory is that in the limited thinking of the olden days "Holland,"
especially the coastal regions of the Netherlands, seemed like really
far-away places, far-away yet reachable.  Hollanders had settled in the
Saxon-speaking Eastern Netherlands and Northern Germany (as far as to the
Baltic states then), and they were seen as people from far away.  There was
active trading and communication between the regions, as well as migration
back and forth (and the Jewish communities of the regions routinely
intermarried, later to start communities in Scandinavia as well).  So even
less educated people knew of "Holland."

I also wonder if the said expression started off as meaning 'to be gone',
'to have disappeared' (i.e., someone or something that goes far away is
assumed to be never seen again, as all emigrants were at the time and as
they still are to many traditionally-geared European minds).

Does any of you have any new spin on this?  Perhaps you can think of related
expressions or of other types of expressions in which place names are used
(in which case I would be most interested in Lowlands place names, since I
always love to find out about older connections within the Lowlands).

Thanks and regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 29 16:42:49 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:42:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.07.29 (04) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUL.2004.094249.0700.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Literature

[English below]

Leve Leeglanders,

J?st is mi k?nnig worrn, dat de Freudenthal-Pries f?r nedderd??tsche
Litteratuur 2004 an Silke Mansholt geiht f?r ?hr Gedichtzyclus "heel
worden".  F?r ?hr is dat dat twede Maal; se harr den Pries al 1997 kr?gen.
Silke Mansholt hett 'n basig Kunsttalent.  Se schrifft Gedichten (d??tsch,
oostfreessch nedderd??tsch, un ingelsch), komponeert, danzt, inszeneert un
is 'n "performance artist".  Se hett in England studeert un wahnt upst??d'
in Brighton, n??m se in de Kunstszene arrig aktiew is.

Kiekt maal hier:
http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/page.cfm?objectid=12686617&method=full&siteid=50061

Silke Mansholt is f?r de nedderd??tsche Litteratuur 'n wichtige neje Figuur,
nich bloots wieldat se jung (33) is.

De twede Pries geiht an Jan Glas uut Gr?nnen (Groningen).  Ik freih mi, dat
na d'n Gellerlanner (Gelderlander) Henk Krosenbrink (2001) 'n Schriever vun
de neddersassischsprakigen Oostnedderlannen mit an d'n Dr?cker keem, un ik
dank de Freudenthal-Sellschupp daarf?r, dat se us L??d' vun de annere Sied
vun de Grenz mit up de Tell hett.

De dr?dde Pries geiht an Birgit Lemmermann uut ?nnerstedt (Unterstedt) bi
Rothenborg an de W?mm (Rothenburg/W?mme) in Neddersassen, D??tschland.

Een S?nnerpries geiht an Ilse Hahn uut Spr??tz (Spr?tze) in de Noordheid',
Neddersassen, f?r ?hr Vertellen ?ver 'n Bessarabien-D??tsche.  Ilse Hahn is
mien M??sch, de Fro vun mien j?ngsten Vadderbroder Fredie.

Gratulatschoon an all de Winners in d'n Naam vun Lowlands-L!

Ji findt mehr ?ver d'n Freudenthal-Pries up een vun mien Nettsieden:
http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/low-saxon/plattewelt.htm
http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/low-saxon/freudenthal.htm

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

***

Dear Lowlanders,

Just now I found out that the Freudenthal Prize for Low German (Lowlands
Saxon) Literature 2004 has been awarded to Silke Mansholt for her group of
poems entitled _heel worden_ ("becoming whole/healed").  It is her second
time; before this she had received the prize in 1997.  Silke Mansholt is
incredibly gifted.  She writes poetry (in German, Eastern Friesland Lowlands
Saxon, and English), composes music, dances, produces and is a performance
artist.  She studied in England and currently lives in Brighton, being
active in the local artistic scene.

For example, read about her here:
http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/page.cfm?objectid=12686617&method=full&siteid=50061

Silke Mansholt is an important new figure for Low German literature, not
only because she is young (33).

The second prize went to Jan Glas of Groningen.  I am pleased to see that
another writer of the Lowlands-Saxon-speaking Eastern Netherlands has been
honored after Henk Krosenbrink (2001), and I thank the Freudenthal Society
for including our folks from west of the border.

The third prize was given to Birgit Lemmermann of Unterstedt near Rothenburg
on W?mme in Lower Saxony, Germany.

A special prize was awarded to Ilse Hahn of Spr?tze on the North Heath,
Lower Saxony, for her story about a Bessarabia-German woman.  Ilse Hahn
happens to be my aunt, the wife of Fredie Hahn, my father's youngest
brother.

Congratulations to all winners in the name of Lowlands-L!

You can find more about the Freudenthal-Preis at one of my websites:
http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/low-saxon/plattewelt.htm
http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/low-saxon/freudenthal.htm

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 29 20:21:51 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:21:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.29 (05) [E]
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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.29 (03) [E]

Ron wrote:
> Does any of you have any new spin on this?  Perhaps you can think of
related
> expressions or of other types of expressions in which place names are used
> (in which case I would be most interested in Lowlands place names, since I
> always love to find out about older connections within the Lowlands).

Well, there are many such expressions in German, and they're very probably
the same in the local version of Lower Saxon.

Most prominently, in Southern Lower Saxony, a person whose dead or a thing
that is lost or broken is "?ber'n Deister" or, in Platt, "?ver'n Deister".
The "Deister" is a low mountain range just south of Hannover, and east of
the Weser river.

Then, of course, there's the universal "?ber'n Jordan", meaning dead.

Then there's "ab nach Kassel" (a largish town in Northern Hesse), meaning
"get thee off to Kassel", or: "get lost!".

Then there's "ab nach Rostock" (a suburb of G?ttingen) and "ab nach
Wunstorf" (north of Hannover), and probably several more; those place names
indicate where the nearest psychiatric clinic is, in the sense of "you're
crazy - go get yourself checked in!".

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.29 (03) [E]

Dear Ron,

Subject: Etymology

> I'm wondering about place names occurring in idiomatic expressions.  Here
is
> an example from Lowlands Saxon (Low German): _na Holland (gaan)_ (<na
> Holland (gahn)> "to go to Holland") or _na R?tterdam (gaan)_ (<na
R?tterdam
> (gahn)> "to go to Rotterdam") meaning 'to die'; e.g., _dey s?nd al lang na
> Holland/R?tterdam_ 'they have been dead for a long time'.

I wonder now if we are now wandering into the realm of myth? However, is it
not true that some Northwest European Teutones attributed to the Abode of
the Dead a location in the West over the Sea?
I remember reading somewhere the old tale that some families that fished the
North Sea had another burden, & a fisherman might be summoned at night to
ferry a passenger, or more, sometimes many more than his boat should
support, to some shore across the water. & he would beach on a strand that
was not there in daylight, his passengers disembark, & leave him to return
home, in far less time than would be the case if he had crossed over to
Norfolk, for example.

& then again, could this be a punning or alliterative euphemism? _na Heiland
(gaan)_

Yrs,
Mark

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Thanks, Gabriele and Mark!

Gabriele:

> Most prominently, in Southern Lower Saxony, a person whose dead or a thing
> that is lost or broken is "?ber'n Deister" or, in Platt, "?ver'n Deister".
> The "Deister" is a low mountain range just south of Hannover, and east of
> the Weser river.

Actually, I have heard this saying used farther up north as well, and I
always wondered what this Deister thing was, not making the connection ...
duh.

We also say _?ver d'n dyk_ (<?ver'n Diek>) literally "over/across the dyke,"
but I believe this is used more in the sense of escaping or of being lost,
such as _hey is ?ver d'n dyk_ (<He is ?ver'n Diek>) 'he
disappeared/escaped'.  Does anyone know if you can use it to mean
'disappear' in reference to things, and if it, too, can mean 'to die'?

> Then there's "ab nach Kassel" (a largish town in Northern Hesse), meaning
> "get thee off to Kassel", or: "get lost!".

Yes, I know that one too.

> Then there's "ab nach Rostock" (a suburb of G?ttingen) and "ab nach
> Wunstorf" (north of Hannover), and probably several more; those place
names
> indicate where the nearest psychiatric clinic is, in the sense of "you're
> crazy - go get yourself checked in!".

In Hamburg we (used to?) say the same with Ossentoll/Ochsenzoll (lit.
"Ox(en)-Toll"), a part of town that used to house the most important mental
health institution.  (Does it still?)  It's still where the most important
health care and research clinics of all sorts are.  (Isn't the university
hospital there?)  One of our sayings was _Ossentoll r?ppt_ / _Ochsenzoll
ruft_ "O. is calling" when we considered someone to be "over the edge" or
just about to "flip."

Mark, more fanciful than ever yet charming as always:

> & then again, could this be a punning or alliterative euphemism? _na
Heiland
> (gaan)_

Now there's a thought!  Or more archaically, _n? deme Heliande (g?n)_.

:-)

Groete,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 29 20:25:57 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:25:57 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.29 (06) [E]
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From: Fr?d?ric Baert <baert_frederic at CARAMAIL.COM>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.29 (02) [A/D/E]

Denis wrote :
>Does anybody allready have a reference about "lochting", which is more
>widespread then Westflemish?
>
>Denis Dujardin

Hi
I'm sorry to participate so few but I'm very busy before holidays.
In the case of the world garden in french west flemish, my father says (I
think) "een hove", but, and it will interest you Denis, my mother only
says "een lofting". In this case, the switch of "f" to "ch" between vowel
and dental consonnant(typical of flemish and Dutch) did not happen in my
dialect. As you, I would be very curious to know the etymology of this word.

Fr?d?ric Baert

----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.29 (02) [A/D/E]

Beste Liza en Almal,

Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

> Of course now I am tickled to know what the word for horse is in other
> lowlands languages!

Seconded!
& is it true that the Germanic 'pfard, paard, perd' goes back to the
Military Latin 'paraverada'?

> "leek-town" *s*. De Vries says that "look" (ranging from allium to garlic
to
> chives) was held in high regard, according to old Norwegian runes.

Well, this explains the first half of the name of that worthy British 'town'
or could it be 'thorp', 'Leighton Buzzard' now, what about the second half?

Die Uwe, met
Kind greetings,
Mark

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Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:27:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Ethnica" 2004.07.29 (07) [E]
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From: Ben J. Bloomgren <godsquad at cox.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.28 (11) [E]

Dennis and all, you have mentioned the Teutonic origins of certain words in
this discussion. From where did the Teutonic people come? Were they from the
lowlands?

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 29 20:50:09 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:50:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.29 (08) [E]
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Talking about _Heliand_ (just now under "Idiomatica"), the Old Saxon poetic
Gospel version of 830, there is a most splendid web presentation by the
Bibliotheca Augustana here:
http://www.fh-augsburg.de/~harsch/germanica/Chronologie/d_saec09.html

As you can see, there is another Old Saxon work accessible there: the Old
Saxon Genesis version.

On the Old Saxon Genesis page there is a link to yet another Old Saxon work:
the Old Saxon tanslation of the Old English Genesis version, with a link to
the actual Old English version it was translated from!  It's very, very
handy indeed for all of us who would like to compare English and Saxon of
that time.

The site comes with pictures of fragments of the original documents with
links to the transliterated versions.  Very nice!

The Heliand with very a handy clickable English glossary machine can be
found here:
http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/texte/etcs/germ/asachs/heliand/helia.htm

Enjoy!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 29 20:52:28 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:52:28 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Mythology" 2004.07.29 (09) [E]
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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.29 (05) [E]

Mark Dreyer wrote:
> I remember reading somewhere the old tale that some families that fished
the
> North Sea had another burden, & a fisherman might be summoned at night to
> ferry a passenger, or more, sometimes many more than his boat should
> support, to some shore across the water. & he would beach on a strand that
> was not there in daylight, his passengers disembark, & leave him to return
> home, in far less time than would be the case if he had crossed over to
> Norfolk, for example.

Actually, basically the same story exists about the ferryman who was
summoned at night to take the "little folk" away from the island of R?gen in
the Baltic Sea. Can't quite remember why that exodus took place; maybe it
was the coming of Christianity (although I doubt it).

Gabriele Kahn

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 29 22:46:52 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:46:52 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.29 (10) [E]
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From: Ben J. Bloomgren <godsquad at cox.net>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.29 (03) [E]

Among my friends we have an expression for the unsaid part of the body. My
friends call it the "Antarctic winter," as it is not wise to be in
Antarctica during the winter. It also refers to the relation between things
in the south for which we say "down." I'm trying to tread lightly here, and
I hope that I am not confusing you.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Hey, Ben!

Thanks.  I'll award you two Lowlands-L prizes today: one for your sincere
endeavor to tread lightly (which is always appreciated), and one for
cryptograph description.  Whatever "things" you are talking about, I hope
that others on the List will have an easier time than I deciding what it is
you are talking about.  ;-)

Cheers!
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 29 22:48:56 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:48:56 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.29 (11) [E]
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From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.29 (06) [E]

>From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.29 (02) [A/D/E]
>
>Beste Liza en Almal,
>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology"
>
>>Of course now I am tickled to know what the word for horse is in other
>>lowlands languages!
>
>Seconded!
>& is it true that the Germanic 'pfard, paard, perd' goes back to the
>Military Latin 'paraverada'?

They all come from 'pardus' meaning brown or tan

David Barrow

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Thu Jul 29 22:50:41 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:50:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.29 (12) [E]
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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: Phrase Origin

In the course of my work today, I came across a quaint phrase which set me
to wonderin' just where it came from.  From it's structure, I'm thinking
it's from the lowlands.

The context is that someone was presented with a direct question which
called for a direct answer, but the person began to "hem and haw," i.e.,
began to nervously answer with facts that weren't applicable to the
question, or tried to change the subject.  What's the origin of "hem and
haw"?

Mark Brooks

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 30 15:13:13 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:13:13 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.30 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUL.2004.081313.0700.>

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From: Douglas G. Wilson <douglas at nb.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.29 (11) [E]

> >& is it true that the Germanic 'pfard, paard, perd' goes back to the
> >Military Latin 'paraverada'?
>
>They all come from 'pardus' meaning brown or tan

The latter does not seem to be the usual story. Is there documentation?

Wherever I've seen this etymology (including the OED, and Buck's IE synonym
book) the ancestral word was Latin "paraveredus" meaning something like
"extra post horse" > French "palefroy", Spanish "palafr?n" (supposedly
influenced by "freno" = "bit"), English "palfrey", etc., also > German
"Pferd", Dutch "paard", etc., and English "prad".

I'm not familiar with "pardus" except meaning "panther" or so.

Latin "veredus" = "post horse" is itself said to have been probably from a
Celtic origin.

-- Doug Wilson

----------

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.29 (12) [E]

Mark Brooks wrote:
> The context is that someone was presented with a direct question which
> called for a direct answer, but the person began to "hem and haw," i.e.,
> began to nervously answer with facts that weren't applicable to the
> question, or tried to change the subject.  What's the origin of "hem and
> haw"?

Actually, I had always assumed that those are the noises a donkey (or a
mule) produces before he makes up his mind.... or before he REALLY starts to
bray... I used to have two donkeys, so I should know... :-)

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: ezinsser at icon.co.za <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.29 (12) [E]

Hi all,

Mark, I suspect the "hem and haw," derives from exactly the same origin from
which the Afrikaans, as in: "Hy't om die storie ge-hmm en ge-hah", and
indicating the way people behave when being put on the spot.

Regards
Elsie Zinsser

----------

From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.29 (12) [E]

> From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
> Subject: Phrase Origin
>
> In the course of my work today, I came across a quaint phrase which set me
> to wonderin' just where it came from.  From it's structure, I'm thinking
> it's from the lowlands.
>
> The context is that someone was presented with a direct question which
> called for a direct answer, but the person began to "hem and haw," i.e.,
> began to nervously answer with facts that weren't applicable to the
> question, or tried to change the subject.  What's the origin of "hem and
> haw"?
>
> Mark Brooks

Is it not merely imitative of the sounds of coughing and clearing the
throat, associated with someone who is being hesitant or indecisive, or
equivocating?

Kevin Caldwell (kcaldwell31 at comcast.net)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Folks,

The closest Lowlands Saxon (Low German) equivalent of "to hem and to haw"
(i.e., to make sounds like "hmm ..." and "haw ..." when one has been put on
the spot) is _druksen_ (<drucksen> ['drUksn]); e.g., _As sey em vr?yg', daar
druks hey man bloots in eynssen tou_ 'He just kept hemming and hawing when
she asked him'.

Does anyone know the origin of _druksen_?  It doesn't seem to be
onomatopoetic as English "to hem and to haw" and for instance LS
_hachpachen_ 'to pant' are.

By the way, Old Saxon has _h?ngist_ and _hros_ ~ _hors_ for 'horse'.

_H?ngist_ has become _hingst_ in the modern dialects, with the specialized
meaning 'stallion' (as also German _Hengst_), via Middle Saxon _hing(i)st_.
This is supposed to go back to Germanic *_hangista(z)_ from Indo-European
*_k^?k-_ ~ *_k^?ik-_ ~ *_k^?k-_ 'to jump', 'to frolic'.

I am not aware of _hros_ ~ _hors_ having survived (like archaic or poetic
German _Ross_).  Is anyone else?  It is supposed to go back to Germanic
*_hrussa(m)_ and eventually Indo-European *_k^ers-_ 'to run'.

The ordinary generic word for 'horse' in Modern Lowlands Saxon is _peyrd_
(<Perd>, <Peerd>, <Pierd>, etc. [pE.I3`t] ~ [pi:3`t], plural _peyrd'_
<Per(d)>, <Peer(d)>, <Pier(d)>, etc. [pE:I3`(d)] ~ [pi:.3`(d)]).  I cannot
find an ancestor in Old Saxon.  Can anyone else?

A curious development in the North Saxon dialects with which I am most
familiar is that there is no basic word for a female horse, the equivalent
of "mare," the German cognate of which is _M?hre_, usually denoting an
inferior horse.   Old Saxon has _marh_ as a rarely used word for 'horse'.
In Modern LS I say 'mare' (female horse) as _valen-peyrd_ (<Fahlenpeerd>
['fQ:lnpE.I3`t]), literally "foal(ing) horse."

Thanks and regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 30 15:50:25 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:50:25 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.30 (02) [A/E]
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUL.2004.085025.0700.>

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From: Ben J. Bloomgren <godsquad at cox.net>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.29 (10) [E]

The things are the private parts of the body.

----------

From: ezinsser at icon.co.za <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.29 (05) [A]

Dag almal,

Ja, behalwe Mark Dreyer se 'Gaan na die Heiland', is daar natuurlik ook die
"Gaan na die
hel".

Hier is ander:
"Hy behoort in Groendakkies" - 'n psigiatriese hospitaal naby Pretoria (die
dakke is nou
dalk rooi geverf maar die naam bly sit).

"Hulle gaan nou Mauritius toe" - 'n uitdrukking binne ons familie vir die
nouveau riche
wat nou dinge wil doen.

"Baai toe gaan" - dit verwys na Port Elizabeth as geliefde vakansie plek vir
Ooskapers en
nou ook in Khsa "eBayi".

Groete,
Elsie Zinsser

----------

From: Utz H. Woltmann <uwoltmann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.29 (05) [E]


>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Idiomatica
>
>We also say _?ver d'n dyk_ (<?ver'n Diek>) literally "over/across the
dyke,"
>but I believe this is used more in the sense of escaping or of being lost,
>such as _hey is ?ver d'n dyk_ (<He is ?ver'n Diek>) 'he
>disappeared/escaped'.  Does anyone know if you can use it to mean
>'disappear' in reference to things, and if it, too, can mean 'to die'?
>
Moin Ron,

there is another idiom in LS: "?ver den groten Diek"  literally "over
the great pool" with the meaning of "over the sea" or "across the
Atlantic" or "to America".

for 'to die' I have never heard these idioms but the following:
"na g?ntsiet", "de Reis, de geiht na g?nt", "de grote Reis antreden",
"op de anner Siet gahn", "?ver?n Deister gahn".

Kumpelmenten
Utz H. Woltmann

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Moyen, Utz, Leeglanners!

Thanks, Utz.  Let me just explain a couple of things to others on the List.

> "na g?ntsiet", "de Reis, de geiht na g?nt", "de grote Reis antreden",
> "op de anner Siet gahn"

So it's literally "(to the) beyond" and "the journey (going/leading)
beyond," "to start on the long journey," and "to go to the other side," i.e.
"to cross over."

> there is another idiom in LS: "?ver den groten Diek"  literally "over
> the great pool" with the meaning of "over the sea" or "across the
> Atlantic" or "to America".

Folks need to realize the ambiguity of _dyk_ (<Diek> [di:k]) here.  It is
really *two* words: (1) 'dyke' (German _Deich_) and (2) 'pond', 'pool'
(German _Teich_).  What is meant usually is clear in context, not here
though, I'm afraid, as you can see in cases of idiomatic expressions.  While
_?ver d'n (groten) dyk_ ("across the (large) _dyk_") in the sense of
"Atlantic" is clear, _?ver d'n dyk_ ("across the _dyk_") in the sense of
"away," "disappeared" and "absconded with" doesn't seem all that clear to
me.

The meaning of _dyk_ as "pond" is relatively clear -- I think -- in the
following idiomatic expressions:

aanten vun d'n dyk vlayten
<Aanten vun'n Diek fleiten>
("to whistle [= call] ducks from the _dyk_")
'to make a vain effort', 'to do something for naught'

Vlayt de aanten vun d'n dyk!
<Fleit de Aanten vun'n Diek!>
("Whistle [= call] the ducks from the _dyk_!")
'Leave me alone!', 'Get lost!', 'Go fly a kite!'

aanten ?ver d'n dyk setten
<Aanten ?ver'n Diek setten>
("to take ducks across the _dyk_")
'to do something superfluous', 'to waste time', 'to behave like a fuss
budget', 'to stall'

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 30 15:51:49 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:51:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.30 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUL.2004.085149.0700.>

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2004.07.29 (08) [E]

Beste Ron,

Subject: Resources

Thanks, Reinhard. This will keep me busy a long time.

> Talking about _Heliand_

Die Uwe,
Mark

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 30 16:24:18 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:24:18 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.07.30 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUL.2004.092418.0700.>

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: Names

In Dooghe, De Clovis ?  Charlemagne, 2000, MCD, Wattignies,  ISBN
2-912886-04-X (in stock in both the Furet and the Fnac in Lille) I found p
50-51 a list of names in franconian form (Merovinger times), followed by
medieval and modern French forms.

I didn't realise so many French names are (eventually) of Franconian origin,
nor do I understand all roots as e.g. "chrod"(?) and "gar"(?) for finally
"Roger".

Question:
Are similar (Low-)Saxon roots very much different from the Franconian roots?
Thanks for all comments.

Regards,
Roger

Annex: p. 50-51 as referred to above:

CORRESPONDANCE DES PRINCIPAUX
NOMS-PRENOMS MEROVINGIENS

FORME germanique FORME m??di??vale FORME moderne

MER-WIG    MEROVEE     x
MER-BALD   MEROBAUD    x
CHLOD-WIG   CLOVIS    LOUIS-LUDOVIC
CHLOD-BALD   CLODBALD    x
CRLOD-MER   CLODOMIR    x
CHLOD-HAR   CLOTAIRE    LOTHAIRE

CHLOD-WULF   CLODULPRE    x
CHLOD-FRIED   CLODFRIED    LEUTFRIED

CHLOD-RIC   CLODERIC    x
CHLOD-GAR   CLODGAR    LEGER
CHLOD-BERT   CHILDEBERT   LIBERT
CHILD-RIC   CHILDERIC   LIDERIC
CRILD-WALD   HILGAUD    HELGAUD
CHILD-WIN   HILDUIN    HELUIN
CHILP-RIC   CHILPERIC    x
THEUD-RIC   TREODERIC   THIERRY
TREUD-BERT   THEODEBERT   THIBERT
THEUD-BALD   THEODEBALD   THIBAULT
THEUD-MER   TREODEMER    x
HAR-BERT   CHARIBERT   HERBERT
HAR-RIC   CHARARIC   GUERRIC
WAR-MUND   PHARAMOND    GUERMOND

DAG-BERT   DAGOBERT    x
SIEG-BERT   SIGEBERT    x
SIEG-MER   SIGISMER    x
SIEG-RAM   SIGRAND    x
SIEG-FRIED   SIGEFROY   x
HAI-MO    HAYMON    AYMON
HAI-MUND   RAYMOND    RAYMOND
HAIM-RIC   BENRIC    HENRI
RAD-WULF   RADULF   RAOUL

CHROD-GAR   RODGAR    ROGER
CHROD-BERT   RODBERT   ROBERT
CHROD-LAND  RODLAND   ROLAND
CHROD-WULF  CHRODULPHE  RODOLPHE
CHROD-RIC   CHRODERIC  RODRIGUE
ADAL-RARD  ADALICAIRE  ALARD

ADAL-GISIL  ALDGISI   x
ADAL-RIC  ADALRIC   ALRIC
ADAL-HELM  ALLEAlJME   x
ADAL-BERT  ADALBERT  ALBERT
ADAL-WULF  ADALOLPHE  ADOLPHE
ADAL-BALD   AUTBALD   OLIBA
LAND-RIC   LANDRIC   LANDRY
LAND-BERT  LAMBERT   LAMBERT
RAGN-WALD  RAGENWALD   x
RAGN-RARD  RAGNACAIRE  REGNIER
                                                     RAINIER
RAGN-RIC  RAGNERIC   x
RIC-MER   RICIMER   x
RIC-HARD  RICHARD   RICHIER
                                      RICHARD
ARN-WALD  ARNOULD   ARNOULD
ARN-WULF  ARNULF   ARNOUL
INGEL-BERT  INGBERT   ANGILBERT
INGEL-RAM  INGRAM   ENGUERRAND

WALD-BERT  WAUDBERT  GAUBERT
WALD-LAND  GALLAND   GALIND
WALD-HER  WAUTMER  GAUTHIER
WALD-FRIED  GAUDFROY  GODEFROI

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Hi, Roger!

> nor do I understand all roots as e.g. "chrod"(?) and "gar"(?) for finally
> "Roger".

Indo-European:
*kar(??) + ??[h]aiso

Germanic:
hr????a + gaiza(z)

Old Saxon:
hr??th + g??r

Old German:
*ruod? + g??r

Old Low Franconian:
*r??t* + --

Literally:
"fame(d) + spear"

Roger, R??diger, Rudger, etc. tend to be assumed to have denoted renouned
spearing skills, either given on the basis of such skills or because such
skills were desired.

By the way, the English cognate of the word for 'spear' is "gare" (< Old
English _g??r_), also found in the words "garfish" (a fish with a spike as
its nose) and "garlic" (< OE _g??rl??ac_ "spear leek").

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 30 17:21:20 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:21:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.30 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUL.2004.102120.0700.>

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From: Stella en Henno <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.30 (01) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology

[knip]
> By the way, Old Saxon has _h?ngist_ and _hros_ ~ _hors_ for 'horse'.
>
> _H?ngist_ has become _hingst_ in the modern dialects, with the specialized
> meaning 'stallion' (as also German _Hengst_), via Middle Saxon
_hing(i)st_.
> This is supposed to go back to Germanic *_hangista(z)_ from Indo-European
> *_k^?k-_ ~ *_k^?ik-_ ~ *_k^?k-_ 'to jump', 'to frolic'.
>
This is in West Frisian "hynder" (= horse) from "*hingst-diar" (diar meaning
animal)
and "hynst" [hi:~st] (nasalised long i) = stallion. The Terschelling/Skylge
dialect
preserves "hos" (< hors), with usual metathesis (as is common in many
Frisian varieties)
The words for horse in North Frisian is "ha"ngst" or "haingst" in Mooring,
"hingst" in Fering and Amring and So"lring, while Halunder has "hings"
(common -t deletion after s in that dialect),
while Saterlandic has "hoangst" or "houngst" (depending on the village).

> I am not aware of _hros_ ~ _hors_ having survived (like archaic or poetic
> German _Ross_).  Is anyone else?  It is supposed to go back to Germanic
> *_hrussa(m)_ and eventually Indo-European *_k^ers-_ 'to run'.
>
Like I said, I only know "hos" on Terschelling and "ros" in Dutch (not a
very common word anymore, though).

> The ordinary generic word for 'horse' in Modern Lowlands Saxon is _peyrd_
> (<Perd>, <Peerd>, <Pierd>, etc. [pE.I3`t] ~ [pi:3`t], plural _peyrd'_
> <Per(d)>, <Peer(d)>, <Pier(d)>, etc. [pE:I3`(d)] ~ [pi:.3`(d)]).  I cannot
> find an ancestor in Old Saxon.  Can anyone else?
>
Me neither. Low Saxon dialects in the Netherlands have "peerd" (or a
spelling variation thereof) and so have Hollandic dialects and Dutch-Frisian
mix-dialects like Stedsk/Town-Frisian.

> A curious development in the North Saxon dialects with which I am most
> familiar is that there is no basic word for a female horse, the equivalent
> of "mare," the German cognate of which is _M?hre_, usually denoting an
> inferior horse.   Old Saxon has _marh_ as a rarely used word for 'horse'.
> In Modern LS I say 'mare' (female horse) as _valen-peyrd_ (<Fahlenpeerd>
> ['fQ:lnpE.I3`t]), literally "foal(ing) horse."
West Frisian has "merje", Dutch has "merrie", and these are normal words
(not archaic or something like that).

> Thanks and regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

Groetnis

Henno Brandsma

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 30 17:31:44 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:31:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.07.30 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUL.2004.103144.0700.>

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From: Szelog, Mike <Mike.Szelog at citizensbank.com>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.07.30 (04) [E]

Would Roger then, be more or less the "modern" rendition of the Anglo Saxon
"Hrodhgar" (as in the poem Beowulf)?!

Mike S

Ron wrote, in part:
-
Old Saxon:
hr?th + g?r

Old German:
*ruod? + g?r

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Mike (above):

> Would Roger then, be more or less the "modern" rendition of the Anglo
Saxon
> "Hrodhgar" (as in the poem Beowulf)?!

I assume so, Mike, though I hadn't even made the connection.  Thanks.

For instance:


320
   Hro?gar ma?elode,         helm Scyldinga:
   "Ic hine cu?e         cnihtwesende.
   W?s his ealdf?der         Ecg?eo haten,
   ??m to ham forgeaf         Hre?el Geata

375
   angan dohtor ...

320
   Hrodhgar, Helmet of the Scyldings, replied,
   "I knew him well from our boyhood days.
   To his father, named Ecgtheow,
   Had Hrethel the Geat given

375
   His only daughter ...

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 30 18:52:13 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:52:13 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.30 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUL.2004.115213.0700.>

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From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.07.30 (04) [E]

>By the way, the English cognate of the word for 'spear' is "gare" (< Old
>English _g?r_), also found in the words "garfish" (a fish with a spike as
>its nose) and "garlic" (< OE _g?rl?ac_ "spear leek").
>
>Regards,
>Reinhard/Ron

And perhaps in 'to  gore'  =  to pierce

David Barrow

----------

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.07.30 (04) [E]

Ron wrote:
> By the way, the English cognate of the word for 'spear' is "gare" (< Old
> English _g?r_), also found in the words "garfish" (a fish with a spike as
> its nose) and "garlic" (< OE _g?rl?ac_ "spear leek").

Even more important: the old German word for a spear is "Ger", and that's
what the Word "German" means: "Spear-Man".

This is also behind names like:

Gerhard
Gerfried
Gertrud
Gerlinde
Gerhild
Gernot

etc.

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Gabriele:

> > its nose) and "garlic" (< OE _g?rl?ac_ "spear leek").
>
> Even more important: the old German word for a spear is "Ger", and that's
> what the Word "German" means: "Spear-Man".

"More important"?! Pullease!  What can be more important than garlic?

Just checking,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 30 21:12:15 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:12:15 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.30 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUL.2004.141215.0700.>

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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.07.30 (02) [A/E]

Hi all

I also remember the expression in German "Er ist ?ber die Br?cke" meaning
that the person in question belongs to the gay fraternity.

Regards
Elsie Zinsser
 >such as _hey is ?ver d'n dyk_ (<He is ?ver'n Diek>) 'he
>disappeared/escaped'.  Does anyone know if you can use it to mean
>'disappear' in reference to things, and if it, too, can mean 'to die'?

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Elsie:

> "Er ist ?ber die Br?cke"

i.e., German for "He's across the bridge."

I've never heard this one before and assume it's an offshoot of _vom anderen
Ufer_ "from the other bank/shore."

Having a slightly disparaging flavor, I expect this kind of expression to be
fading away now, at least in some circles ... or so I'd like to hope.

I like to think of bridges as connections rather than as divisions.

Groete,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 30 21:15:50 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:15:50 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.30 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUL.2004.141550.0700.>

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.30 (07) [E]

Ron wrote:
> > Even more important: the old German word for a spear is "Ger", and
that's
> > what the Word "German" means: "Spear-Man".
>
> "More important"?! Pullease!  What can be more important than garlic?

Hmmm... I could tell you, but my reputation is already bad enough... most of
which is your fault, I'm sure... :-)

The "importance" rating was strictly based on frequency of word use. I
wouldn't dream of cooking without garlic, rest assured.
So why is it called "Knoblauch" in German, and "knoflook" in Dutch? Where
does the "knof/Knob" part come from, and what does it mean?

Gabriele Kahn

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Fri Jul 30 23:39:57 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:39:57 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.30 (10) [E/German]
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUL.2004.163957.0700.>

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From: Gustaaf van Moorsel <gvanmoor at aoc.nrao.edu>
Subject: Etymologie

Gabriele wrote:

> So why is it called "Knoblauch" in German, and "knoflook" in Dutch? Where
> does the "knof/Knob" part come from, and what does it mean?

I found the link below but do not know how reliable it is.
It relates 'knob' and 'knof' with Eng 'clove'.

<http://www-ang.kfunigraz.ac.at/~katzer/germ/generic_frame.html?Alli_sat.htm
l>

The related Leek is clearly underrated here in the US.  I can
usually find them in the supermarket but have to tell the check-
out person what it is.  Same for endives.

Groeten,

Gustaaf

----------

From: John Duckworth <jcduckworth2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Etymologie


Henno wrote:

"The Terschelling/Skylge dialect preserves "hos" (< hors), with usual
metathesis ...".

In Lancashire dialect (and in the dialect of Yorkshire too) the word for
'horse' was _os_ [Written _hoss_ or _oss_, but with silent _h-_ ]. The word
has largely died out, but I still occasionally hear the word _os_,
especially from people living in rural areas. When I was a child I remember
references to _th' 'obby 'oss_ , 'the hobby-horse'. I suppose a
'hobby-horse' strictly speaking was a wooden horse's head on a stick that a
morris dancer fastened round his waist; in my time, though, this word
referred also to a rocking horse ( a kind of child's toy).

Interestingly enough, this word _oss_, and _obby oss_ are not confined to
the north of England. There is a traditional ceremony in Padstow, Cornwall
(in the extreme, until relatively recently Celtic-speaking south west) on
Mayday involving the _'obby 'oss_.

The only word I recall being used in Lancashire dialect for a female horse
was _mare_, the pronunciation of which was something like [mo":R] ( as if it
had a German long o-Umlaut, and a very full r-sound, somewhat like the final
American -r in some dialects). Exactly the same pronunciation would be used
for _mayor_ of a town, and I often used to hear the same word used as a
diminutive form of the name _Mary_.

John Duckworth
Preston, UK

----------

From: HALLS Haeng-Cho <zzhhalls at student.uq.edu.au>
Subject:

Man darf nicht vergessen, da? wir das Wort 'Stute' f?r ein weibliches Pferd
verwende :)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Haeng-Cho wrote above that in German _Stute_ (related to "stud") denotes a
female horse.

Which reminds me of a case of _Patentplatt_ (i.e., Lowlands Saxon (Low
German) made up on the basis of German) in which someone referred to female
horses as _Stuten_ (singular _Stuut_).  As far as I know, there is no such
LS word for female horses, _falen-peyrd_ (<Fahlenpeerd>) being an authentic
one.  A _stuut_ ([stu:t], plural _stuten_) is a sweet type of bread, a
coffee cake, or a sweet bun, some sort of dessert bread.  (Isn't there also
Dutch _stoet_ [same pronunciation] in this sense?)  It occurs in several
compounds, such as _stutendag_ 'holiday'.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net  Sat Jul 31 00:23:51 2004
From: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:23:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.30 (11) [A/E]
Message-ID: <FRI.30.JUL.2004.172351.0700.>

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From: John Baskind <jbaskind at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.30 (09) [E]

Gabriele het ges?:

>So why is it called "Knoblauch" in German, and "knoflook" in Dutch? Where
>does the "knof/Knob" part come from, and what does it mean?

Is it possible that the 'knob' refersw to nothing more than the knobby shape
of the garlic head?

(Ons s? knoffel in Afrikaans)
Groetnis,
John B

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