LL-L "Grammar" 2004.07.06 (10) [D/E]

Wed Jul 7 03:14:22 UTC 2004

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2004.06.30 (03) [D/E]

Hallo Henno,

Vlamingen gebruiken gij/ge als gewone aanspreekvorm. Wel stel ik vast
dat heel wat jongere Vlamingen problemen beginnen te krijgen met de
sterke vormen met verlengde klinker in de verleden tijd. Ik hoor vaak
vormen met korte klinker in de tweede persoon, bv. ge nam(t). Er lijkt
steeds meer onzekerheid te groeien over deze werkwoordsvormen. Toen ik
onlangs een kennis van mij, een jongedame die  pas afgestudeerd was als
'regentes Nederlands' (d.i. een lerares voor het lager secundair
onderwijs), erop wees dat 'gij hadt' met dt diende te worden geschreven,
geloofde ze me niet en bekeek ze me of ik pas van de planeet Mars
gekomen was. Het kostte me heel wat moeite om haar er uiteindelijk van
te overtuigen dat ik het bij het rechte eind had.

Hartelijk,

Roger Hondshoven

-----Original Message-----

From: Stella en Henno <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.06.30 (01) [E]

Tony schreef:

> read in a national news paper). One thing he would not teach, however,

> was how to conjugate verbs with "gij". This is, in my opinion, very
unfortunate
> as you *will* hear it everyday in Flanders, so it might be useful to
> know, even if you don't actually use it yourself. (And if anyone knows

> of a book or website with it, please contact me offlist.)

Wel, ik reageer even op de lijst zelf, aangezien andere leerders er
wellicht baat bij hebben. Ik heb er even de ANS (algemene Nederlandse
spraakkunst) bijgehaald, en die vermeldt (2de druk) de (regelmatige)
vormen op pagina 83 en 84. In de tegenwoordige tijd: de -t vorm als bij
"hij" (de t verdwijnt niet in de inversie): ge loopt, loopt ge? (zowel
enkelvoud als meervoud) [as an historical aside: gij/ge is the same as
English "ye", (and Northern Dutch jij, Low Saxon ji etc.) and originally
a plural form (like "vous" in French); originally it also was "jullie
komt"..] ge vindt, vindt ge? etc. In de verleden tijd wordt zwak gewoon
-te of -de gebruikt: ge werkte, ge leefde. Sterk behoudt men een -t,
hetgeen er vreemd uitziet: gij vondt, gij liept, gij kwaamt (met een uit
het meervoud afkomstige lange a, vergelijk wij kwamen). Als enkelvoud en
meervoud sterk zijn en een verschillende lengte hebben geldt dit steeds,
dus ook "ge naamt" bijv. (nam - namen). Steeds geldt dit voor enkelvoud
en meervoud.

Groeten,

Henno Brandsma

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

The North Saxon dialects of Lowlands Saxon (Low German) retain the old
personal pronoun system (with the regular/weak verb _leyren_ /leir-/ 'to
learn', 'to teach' as example):

PRESENT:
Singular:
   1st: ik ... (ik leyr < ik leyre)
   2nd: du ...st (du leyrst)
   3nd: hey/sey/et~it~dat ...t (hey/sey/et~it~dat leyrt)
Plural:
   1st: wy ...t ~ ...en (wy leyrt ~ wy leyren)
   2nd: jy ...t ~ ...en (jy leyrt ~ jy leyren)
   3nd: sey ...t ~ ...en (sey leyrt ~ sey leyren)

PRETERITE:
Singular:
   1st: ik ... (ik leyr < leyrde)
   2nd: du ...st (du leyrst < leyrdest)
   3nd: hey/sey/et~it~dat ... (hey/sey/et~it~dat leyr < leyrde)
Plural:
   1st: wy ...en (wy leyren < leyrden)
   2nd: jy ...en (jy leyren < leyrden)
   3nd: sey ...en (sey leyren < leyrden)

_Jy_ [(d)ji:] (< _gy_), objective _ju_ [(d)ju:], still functions as the
second person plural pronoun, while the Low Franconian, English and Scots
equivalents shifted, becoming the second person polite pronoun (both
singular and plural), and in English and Scots finally the general second
person plural (English "you," gradually dropping objective "ye," and Scots
generalizing to _ye_), almost completely relacing familiar singular "thou"
(objective "thee").

North Saxon:
   ik - my ([?Ik] - [mi:])
   du - dy ([du:] - [di:])
   m. hey - em ([hE.I] ~ [?E.m])
   f. sey - er ([zE.I] - [?E.3`])
   n. it ~ et ~ dat - it ~ et ~ dat ([?It] ~ [?Et] ~ [dat])
   wy - uns ~ us ([vi:] - [?U.ns] ~ [?U.s])
   jy - ju ([(d)ji:] ~ [(d)ju:])
   sey - jüm ~ jem ([zE.I] - [(d)jY.m] ~ [(d)jE.m])

Under German influence, _Sey_ (<Se>, originally 'they') has come to be used
as the polite second person pronoun (singular and plural), but most people
do not use expected _Jüm_ ~ _Jem_ in the objective case; they use _Sey_,
influenced by German accusative _Sie_.  "Purists" like myself say _Jüm_ or
_Jem_ in such cases.  In fact, especially many urbanites are gradually
disregarding even non-polite objective _jüm_ ~ _jem_ and use _sey_ instead.
I have to admit that hearing and reading this makes me cringe, even *if* I
try not to think in prescriptive terms.

When polite pronouns where used before the 20th century (which was reserved
to addressing a small number of "higher-ups") it was _Jy_ (with the
predictable objective form _Ju_, see above).

As in German, talking down to "underlings" was also possible before the 20th
century (typically used by aristocrats, squires and their kin in addressing
peasants).  In those cases the third person pronouns were used.  (See
above.)  So, a male would be addressed as _hey_ (German _er_), a female as
_sey_ (German _sie_) and several people as _sey_ (German _sie_).

Polite forms used to be used very rarely, very sparingly, much less than in
German, only in addressing outsiders of "high" standing (if they were
addressed in LS).  Certainly, parents and grandparents were not addressed
using polite pronouns, which until about the middle of the 19th century this
*was* the custom in "better" German-speaking families, using also "Mister,"
"Mistress" and _Miss_ (e.g., _Herr Papa_ 'father', _Frau Mama_ 'mother',
_werte Frau Großmama_ 'dear grandmother', _das Fräulein Tochter_ lit. "Miss
Daughter" = 'the young lady' [the latter used by servants]).  This was alien
to LS-speaking communities, thoroughly _geel_ "yellow" (= "High" German).
Even now, to many people, especially those in rural areas, any use of polite
pronouns is _geel_.  Many enjoy the use of "the old language" in part
because it allows you to disregard social class in most cases without danger
of causing offense.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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