LL-L "Name the language" 2004.07.01 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Name the Language" 2004.07.07


Hi Lowlanders!

Here I go inserting my proboscis dilettantis into fine distinctions I know
little about:

Pat Reynolds asked a fascinating question about the J.R.R. Tolkien usage of

> twe tusend Johr<

to which Ron Hahn responded that, were the initial consonent of the second
word voiced, i.e., "d" instead of "t", it would be perfect Lower Saxon.

I have no doubt that Ron is Right as Rain (or Ragnarok). However, while
living in Stade, Niederelbe, I attended weekly meetings of the local Platt
club, and they occasionally published articles in Lower Saxon in the
newspapers.

Their word for "thousand" was indeed "tusend" with an unvoiced initial
consonent.
They were, or are, indeed aware that the entire Altes Land voices the first
letter, thus "dusend". Stade, it was speculated, was owned by the Swedes
during most of the Thirty Years' War, hence the Swedish "tusen" may have
intruded via superstrate influence.

In fact, there still seem to be significant variances of pronunciation
across the Lower Elbe behind the dikes; Buxtehude and Cuxhaven are as
different, to my uneducated ear, as Philadelphia is to Richmond. But, once
again, I am a rank amateur.

I am preparing a paper about Appalachian, and will post the first draft here
before proceeding further. As to British lowlands (Southeastern) origins,
that is correct. As to Ulster elements as well, correct again.

Beste Groeten,

Arthur Jones
arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com

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From: ezinsser at tiscali.co.za <ezinsser at tiscali.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Name the language" 2004.07.07 (07) [E]

Hi julle,

Pat Reynolds asked about the language that Tolkien used.
If you ask me, the guy used good ole' Bloemfontein Afrikaans
and merely changed the spelling to look exotically Elvish.

> twe tusend Johr

Is merely 'twee duisend jaar' and pronounced [twe: d at is@nt j:ar]

Tata!
Elsie Zinsser

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From: Szelog, Mike <Mike.Szelog at citizensbank.com>
Subject: LL-L "Name the language" 2004.07.07 (07) [E]

Hi Pat and all,

Excellent answer as always, Ron!

I believe the language Tolkien uses this phrase in is the one spoken by the
Rohirim (sp!). They are the people with the horses from whom Gandalf obtains
"Shadowfax" (again, if I remember correctly - it's been a while since I've
actually read the books).

These people Tolkien loosely bases on Germanic/Scandinavian traditions and I
believe the language they speak is based somewhat on Anglo-Saxon with other
elements of Germanic languages. I believe it's also the one that's written
in "Angerthas" runes.

Mike S
Manchester, NH

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From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.07 (03) [E]

I've been asked for an authoritative (!) pronunciation guide for a
charity which is producing an audioversion of a work by J.R.R. Tolkien.
The elvish isn't a problem ... mooreeffoc is a bit challenging ... but I
have my own opinion.

However, one of the phrases I just don't remember from the work.  Can
anyone spot the language?  And provide a pronunciation?

twe tusend Johr

With best wishes,

Pat
--
Pat Reynolds
pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk
   "It might look a bit messy now,
                    but just you come back in 500 years time"
   (T. Pratchett)

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Name the language

Hey, Pat!

> twe tusend Johr

If it were _twe dusend Johr_ it would be "perfect" Lowlands Saxon (Low
German), North Saxon dialect, with German-based spelling (for my _twey
dusend jaar_) meaning 'two thousand years'.

The pronunciation is [tvE.I du:znt 'j@:3`], if you rely on (non-rhotic)
English approximation: "tvey dooznt yawr" (or far-Northern dialects "tvey
dooznt jawr" -- "tvey dooznt yaw" or "tvey dooznt jaw" being close enough
for most of our Irish and North American friends), Dutch-based spelling
_twei doeznt (d)joar_.

Now, rather than believing that this is a Lowlands Saxon loan phrase in
Elvish ;-) I assume that Tolkien read the Lowlands Saxon story _Von dem
Machandelboom_ ("(About) the Juniper Tree") in the "German" original in the
Grimm Brothers' collection
(e.g., http://home.t-online.de/home/rudolf-steiner/machandl.htm) and,
probably influenced by his knowledge of German (_tausend_ 'thousand') or
being influenced by the spelling of English "thousand," he got the second
word a tad incorrect.

The story begins:
"Dat is nu all lang heer, wol twe dusend Johr ..."

My spelling:
"Dat is nu al lang her, wol twey dusend jaar ..."

In German translation:
"Das ist nun sehr lange her, wohl zweitausend Jahre ..."
(Should be "Das ist nun SCHON lange her, wohl zweitausend Jahre ...")

In English translation:
"Long, long ago, some two thousand years or so ..."
(Should be literally "This/It is now a long time ago already, probably two
thousand years ...")

I hope this helped.

Cheerio!
Reinhard/Ron

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From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Name the language" 2004.07.07 (07) [E]

That helpped a great deal!

Twe dusend thanks (to mingle languages/dialects!)

The context has given me a clue as to where in the book (The Tolkien
Reader) the phrase might be used ('On Fairy Stories') - and, indeed, it
is in a paragraph referring to the Grimm version of 'The Juniper Tree'.

Pat
--
Pat Reynolds
pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk
   "It might look a bit messy now,
                    but just you come back in 500 years time"
   (T. Pratchett)

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