LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.09 (04) [E]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.09 (01) [E]

>From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.01 (05) [E]
>
>Dear Gavin Falconer
>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.07 (06) [E]
>
>>According to the DSL at http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/, wan- ceased to be
>>productive in word formation except in Scots and Northern English after
>>
>the
>
>>Middle English period, and I suspect that Scots simply followed suit after
>a
>
>>delay, with it falling together with un- in many cases.
>
>>The number of Afrikaans and German words using the element could be to do
>>with their lack of direct Latinate loans (as opposed to calques) and
>>creation of abstract concepts using native elements, which brings me back
>>
>to
>
>>my original point.  It wouldn't surprise me in the least if someone such
>as
>
>>Hately Waddell had coined a few words with wan-, but if one represents
>>
>Scots
>
>>as the hybrid Latinised Germanic language that it is rather than reforms
>>
>it
>
>>so that it's a purely Germanic one, there's no need for the like.
>
>Thanks for that. Mind you, it is largely the Germanic elements of Scots
that
>so attract me!
>
>Yrs,
>
>Mark
>
>Dear Mark Brooks
>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology"
>Re: on end
>
>>I had always thought it mean something along the lines of "end to end."
>>
>For
>
>>example, "He reads mystery novels for hours on end."  I'm visualizing
>>several hours lined up end "on end" (one after the other) with the meaning
>>of "consecutively."
>
>Yes; what tickles me is the figure of speech - why it was phrased that way.
>For instance, a Korean who had got rather far in English without ever
>speaking to an English-speaker shared this problem with me: As he
understood
>it, 'end' is a terminus - OK, how can it go with 'end-less'? Surely 'on
end'
>means it stops!
>
>Eventually I got him around to our way of thinking, but he had the
>expression of one 'over-persuaded that black is white'. I think I had just
>betrayed one of his insights into the language.
>
>Yrs Sincerely,
>Mark Dreyer
>
>>>>I've found in 'The Dream of the Rood'
>>>>'þæt wæs géara iú   - ic þæt gýta geman
>>>>þæt wæs áhéawan  holtes on ende'
>
>>>>where 'on ende' is glossed as 'from the edge' .
>
>>>Well, I don't altogether agree with that gloss
>
>>My English is pretty basic but I've added a few previous lines and tried
>>a rough translation
>>
>>...........................   Hælendes tréow,
>>........................   Saviour's tree (cross)
>>oþ þæt ic gehýrde   þæt hit hléoðrode     until I heard        that it
>>
>spoke
>
>>ongan þá word sprecan   wudu  sélesta   began then words to speak:
>>best of woods
>>þæt wæs géara iú - ic þæt gýta geman     that was years ago - I still
>>remember that-
>>þæt ic wæs áhéawan holtes on ende'       that I was hewn down  from the
>>forest's edge
>
>>However don't take my word for it. I got the gloss for 'on ende' from
>>Mitchell and Robinson's A Guide to Old English.
>
>Apologies to you then, & to them, but I hold with my objection about the
>present usage of 'hours on end' meaning an 'extended period'. I would still
>look for a structural motivation in earlier language for the phrase 'on
end'
>to meen 'without end'.

The basic idea of days/hours/years etc on end is that there are several
of them with no break from on to the next that is the following one
starts 'from the edge' of the previous one. I think perhaps the fact
that number of days etc is never a specific number is what has led it
to be sometimes  used for periods without end .  But we would never use
'on end'  for  an  endless period  that  included  interruptions:  every
other day.  Or put another way the 'on end' part of the phrase indicates
its consecutiveness not its endlessness.

>Thanks for the interlinear translation.
>
>Thanks also for the translation. I find great pleasure in doing that too.
>Here is the same bit from mine, in Afrikaans.
>
>                        '-----    Heiland se boom
>           Toe hoor ek    hoe hyg dit;
>    beginne spreek,    die saligste van houd,
>  "Jare uitgedagte,    so onthou ek
>is ek van die woud    se wand weggekap---" '
>
>Yrs sincerely,
>Mark
>
I know close to zero Afrikaans, which version did you translate it from?
I'm trying to work out which of the words means 'hewn down'  weggekap?

David Barrow

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

David wrote:

> ...........................   Hælendes tréow,
> ........................   Saviour's tree (cross)
> oþ þæt ic gehýrde   þæt hit hléoðrode     until I heard        that it
spoke
> ongan þá word sprecan   wudu  sélesta   began then words to speak:
> best of woods
> þæt wæs géara iú - ic þæt gýta geman     that was years ago - I still
> remember that-
> þæt ic wæs áhéawan holtes on ende'       that I was hewn down  from the
> forest's edge

Here's my wild stab at an Old Saxon translation:

Hêliandes bôm (= krûci)
and that ik gihôrde that it rêthion
afhêbbade thâr word gisprêkan holte sâligste
that uuas for gêrta – ik farsinnare noh that
that ik uuas âhauwon fan des holtes (~ uualdes) rand (~ and ~ sôm)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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