LL-L "Names" 2004.07.18 (02) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 18.JUL.2004 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.07.18 (01) [E]

R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> wrote:
 >
> I take it that the name of the river called _Ruhr_ in German is spelled
> _Roer_ in Limburgish and Dutch (German _uh_ and Dutch _oe_ denoting the
same
> sound [u:], as in "tour").
 >
No, that's not correct. The river Ruhr and Roer are 2 separate rivers.
The river Roer is actually called Rur (without the h) in Germany.

 > If so, I further assume that the name of the
> Limburgish city of Roermond means "Roer Mouth" (_Ruhrmündung_ in German),
> with "mouth" as in Plymouth, Yarmouth, etc.  Is this correct?
>
That it does. Exept it'd be _Rurmündung_ in Germany, again without the h.

Henry

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Names

Beste Ron,

> I take it that the name of the river called _Ruhr_ in German
> is spelled _Roer_ in Limburgish and Dutch (German _uh_ and
> Dutch _oe_ denoting the same sound [u:], as in "tour").  If
> so, I further assume that the name of the Limburgish city of
> Roermond means "Roer Mouth" (_Ruhrmündung_ in German), with
> "mouth" as in Plymouth, Yarmouth, etc.  Is this correct?

You're definitely right, but the Ruhr-river like in "Mülheim an der Ruhr" is
another river than in "Roermond". Mülheim is located on the right bank of
the river Rhine, whereas the Roer-river, like in Roermond (cf. "Ruregemunde"
in 1130), is on the left bank. This Roer originates in the German-speaking
part of Belgium (Bütgenbach), flows through the German cities of Düren and
Jülich and then finally hits Roermond, where it runs into the Maas. Rivers
that are called "Roer" (and the like) get their names because they are
swift-flowing, cf. "roeren" (D), "rühren" (G), "to stir" (E), and "hrôr"
(Old English), meaning "movement".

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2004.07.18 (01) [E]

Ron,
Everybody will indeed explain you, that "monde" means mouth. In dutch
the official word is monding.
But even in the north of France you have Germanic toponyms like f.e.
Deulemont near Lille. It is not a mount or mont, but a "mond", - in this
particular case the mouth or "mond" of the river Deule.
In Flanders you have several "monde" toponyms , like f.e. Rupelmonde,
Dendermonde.

Denis Dujardin

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Thank you so much for your responses (above), Henry, Luc and Denis!

Henry:

> No, that's not correct. The river Ruhr and Roer are 2 separate rivers.
> The river Roer is actually called Rur (without the h) in Germany.

Luc:

> You're definitely right, but the Ruhr-river like in "Mülheim an der Ruhr"
> is another river than in "Roermond".

I could have looked at a map, couldn't I?  ;-)  But by the time the penny
had dropped I had become so sure about my "discovery" that I didn't bother
...

Luc:

> Rivers that are called "Roer" (and the like) get their names because they
> are swift-flowing, cf. "roeren" (D), "rühren" (G), "to stir" (E), and
"hrôr"
> (Old English), meaning "movement".

So the Roer (German _Rur_) and the Ruhr may be two rivers bearing the same
name.  Right?

Denis:

> Everybody will indeed explain you, that "monde" means mouth. In dutch
> the official word is monding.

In the North Saxon dialects of Lowlands Saxon (Low German) it tends to be
_mün_ (usually written <Münn> in German-based spelling).  I am not sure if
it comes from _munde_ (> münde > münne > mün, as in the place name G.
Travemünde, LS _Travemünn_ "mouth of the Trave river") or from _münnen_
(pronounced [mY.n(:)]).*   So you say for instance _Elv-mün_ (_Elvmünn_) for
'mouth of river Elbe'.

* _Münnen_ would be a nominalized infinitive, which in the modern dialects
tends to replace verb-derived nouns ending with old _-ing_ (German _-ung_,
English _-ing_).  In most dialects, _-ing_ has disappeared.  (I think it's
still widely used in Eastern Friesland, Oldenburg and other areas near the
Netherlands border.)  The German suffix _-ung_ tends to be used with German
loans only but tends to be avoided also; thus _rekening_ > _reken_ (G.
Rechnung) 'reckoning', 'bill', _regering_ > _regeren_ (G. Regierung)
'government', översetting > översetten 'translation', but German-derived
_satzung_ (formerly _wet_, still used in some dialects) 'statutes'.

Regards,
Reuinhard/Ron

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