LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.30 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Douglas G. Wilson <douglas at nb.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.29 (11) [E]

> >& is it true that the Germanic 'pfard, paard, perd' goes back to the
> >Military Latin 'paraverada'?
>
>They all come from 'pardus' meaning brown or tan

The latter does not seem to be the usual story. Is there documentation?

Wherever I've seen this etymology (including the OED, and Buck's IE synonym
book) the ancestral word was Latin "paraveredus" meaning something like
"extra post horse" > French "palefroy", Spanish "palafrén" (supposedly
influenced by "freno" = "bit"), English "palfrey", etc., also > German
"Pferd", Dutch "paard", etc., and English "prad".

I'm not familiar with "pardus" except meaning "panther" or so.

Latin "veredus" = "post horse" is itself said to have been probably from a
Celtic origin.

-- Doug Wilson

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.29 (12) [E]

Mark Brooks wrote:
> The context is that someone was presented with a direct question which
> called for a direct answer, but the person began to "hem and haw," i.e.,
> began to nervously answer with facts that weren't applicable to the
> question, or tried to change the subject.  What's the origin of "hem and
> haw"?

Actually, I had always assumed that those are the noises a donkey (or a
mule) produces before he makes up his mind.... or before he REALLY starts to
bray... I used to have two donkeys, so I should know... :-)

Gabriele Kahn

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From: ezinsser at icon.co.za <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.29 (12) [E]

Hi all,

Mark, I suspect the "hem and haw," derives from exactly the same origin from
which the Afrikaans, as in: "Hy't om die storie ge-hmm en ge-hah", and
indicating the way people behave when being put on the spot.

Regards
Elsie Zinsser

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From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.07.29 (12) [E]

> From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
> Subject: Phrase Origin
>
> In the course of my work today, I came across a quaint phrase which set me
> to wonderin' just where it came from.  From it's structure, I'm thinking
> it's from the lowlands.
>
> The context is that someone was presented with a direct question which
> called for a direct answer, but the person began to "hem and haw," i.e.,
> began to nervously answer with facts that weren't applicable to the
> question, or tried to change the subject.  What's the origin of "hem and
> haw"?
>
> Mark Brooks

Is it not merely imitative of the sounds of coughing and clearing the
throat, associated with someone who is being hesitant or indecisive, or
equivocating?

Kevin Caldwell (kcaldwell31 at comcast.net)

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Folks,

The closest Lowlands Saxon (Low German) equivalent of "to hem and to haw"
(i.e., to make sounds like "hmm ..." and "haw ..." when one has been put on
the spot) is _druksen_ (<drucksen> ['drUksn]); e.g., _As sey em vröyg', daar
druks hey man bloots in eynssen tou_ 'He just kept hemming and hawing when
she asked him'.

Does anyone know the origin of _druksen_?  It doesn't seem to be
onomatopoetic as English "to hem and to haw" and for instance LS
_hachpachen_ 'to pant' are.

By the way, Old Saxon has _hėngist_ and _hros_ ~ _hors_ for 'horse'.

_Hėngist_ has become _hingst_ in the modern dialects, with the specialized
meaning 'stallion' (as also German _Hengst_), via Middle Saxon _hing(i)st_.
This is supposed to go back to Germanic *_hangista(z)_ from Indo-European
*_k^ǝk-_ ~ *_k^āik-_ ~ *_k^īk-_ 'to jump', 'to frolic'.

I am not aware of _hros_ ~ _hors_ having survived (like archaic or poetic
German _Ross_).  Is anyone else?  It is supposed to go back to Germanic
*_hrussa(m)_ and eventually Indo-European *_k^ers-_ 'to run'.

The ordinary generic word for 'horse' in Modern Lowlands Saxon is _peyrd_
(<Perd>, <Peerd>, <Pierd>, etc. [pE.I3`t] ~ [pi:3`t], plural _peyrd'_
<Per(d)>, <Peer(d)>, <Pier(d)>, etc. [pE:I3`(d)] ~ [pi:.3`(d)]).  I cannot
find an ancestor in Old Saxon.  Can anyone else?

A curious development in the North Saxon dialects with which I am most
familiar is that there is no basic word for a female horse, the equivalent
of "mare," the German cognate of which is _Mähre_, usually denoting an
inferior horse.   Old Saxon has _marh_ as a rarely used word for 'horse'.
In Modern LS I say 'mare' (female horse) as _valen-peyrd_ (<Fahlenpeerd>
['fQ:lnpE.I3`t]), literally "foal(ing) horse."

Thanks and regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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