LL-L "Etymology" 2004.06.14 (04) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 14.JUN.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.06.14 (03) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Henry Pijffers:
>
>>In my Low Saxon dialect the word krank is sometimes used to mean ill.
>>But usually the word seyk (sik, with superlength i) is used.
>
> What Netherlands group of Lowlands Saxon does your dialect belong to
again,
> Henry?  Twente?
>
Yes, from Twente (one could call that western West Phalian I guess).

> Again, in North Saxon dialects of the German side of the border, too, you
> can say both _süyk_ ~ _syk_ (German spelling <süük> ~ <siek>, Dutch
spelling
> <zuuk> ~ <ziek>) or _krank_.  Also, 'hospital' can be _süykenhuus_ ~
> _sykenhuus_ (German spelling <Sükenhuus> ~ <Siekenhuus>, Dutch spelling
> <zuuknhoes> ~ <zieknhoes>) or _krankenhuus_ (German spelling
<Krankenhuus>,
> Dutch spelling <kraanknhoes>).

 > I have a feeling that the use of _krank_ and
> derivations thereof is on the increase due to German influence (_krank_,
> _Krankenhaus_).
>
But how do you explain _krank_ appearing in a Dutch dictionary, with the
meaning of ill? And the use of _krank_ in Twente Low Saxon? Those
languages aren't influenced by German that much (at least not as much as
the Saxon varieties in Northern Germany)

> North Saxon dialects of Lowlands Saxon (Low German):
>
> krökel (<Krökel> ~ <Krœkel>) 'wrinkle', '(tight) curl'
> krökelig (<krökelig> ~ <krœkelig>) 'wrinkled', 'crumpled', '(very) curly',
> 'frizzy'
> krökeln (<krökeln> ~ <krœkeln>) 'cause to be wrinkled,crumpled or tightly
> curled'
>
It's the same in Twente.

regards,
Henry

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Henry (above):

> Yes, from Twente (one could call that western West Phalian I guess).

Nice to see that you and I see it alike, that there is someone else willing
to look across the political border.

> > I have a feeling that the use of _krank_ and
> > derivations thereof is on the increase due to German influence (_krank_,
> > _Krankenhaus_).
> >
> But how do you explain _krank_ appearing in a Dutch dictionary, with the
> meaning of ill? And the use of _krank_ in Twente Low Saxon? Those
> languages aren't influenced by German that much (at least not as much as
> the Saxon varieties in Northern Germany)

I'm not talking about existence but about prevalence.  I take it as a given
that both words already existed in Lowlands Saxon (Low German), but that on
the German side of the border people may now avail themselves more and more
of the _krank_ choice because of German influence.  (Modern German has only
_krank_, besides words like _unwohl_ "unwell," but no cognate of the
adjective _süyk_ ~ _syk_.)  I believe that _süyk_ ~ _syk_ used to be
predominant (as in Dutch and Netherlands LS) but is now gradually losing
ground to _krank_ in Germany under German influence, at least in certain
dialects.  A couple of speakers in the greater Hamburg area have told me
that they preferred _krank_ because _süyk_ ~ _syk_ reminded them too much of
German _Seuche_ 'epidemic', 'scourge'.  One thought of _süykenhuus_ for
'hospital' as "silly" because it sounded to her like a place in which people
a quaranteened.  I guess this would be an example of a special type of
language interference, one in which native speaker competence is being
eroded due to foreign cognate associations.  (I wonder if this has been the
subject of academic investigation.)

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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