LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.04 (08) [E]

Thu Mar 4 23:56:12 UTC 2004

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From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen <kenneth at gnu.org>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.03.04 (07) [D/E]

> _Snak_ (<Snack>) is 'talk', 'chat' (both noun and verb) in the more
easterly
> North Saxon dialects (probably corresponding to _proat_, _praot_, etc.
> farther west), and from there made its way into Scandinavian.  (I believe
> that's the direction it took.  Or did it come *from* Scandinavian?)  LS
> _snak_ can also denote 'gossip' (e.g., _Dat is man bloots so 'n snak mang
de
> lüyd'_ 'It's just some gossip making its rounds').

My etymological dictionary says that "snak/snack" is Low Saxon and
originally meant "vrøvl, vås" ie. the same as "vysevaze".

I also know that in the older generations "at snakke" is considered a
bad form of conversation and they prefer the verb "at tale". Today they
can be used almost in place of each other, but you still see that "tale"
is of a higher prestige. I heard that 'tale' is barely used in Norwegian
today.

ex.

"Tal pænt!" ~ speak properly
"Det kan der ikke være tale om"
"Du må ikke tale med munden fuld"
"Peter taler som et vandfald" (idiom - so different)

vs.

"Peter snakker hele tiden" ~ Peter speaks the whole time
"Folk snakker i krogene" ~ /People talk in the corners/

Snakker seems a bit more informal still...so it probably meant the same
as "vyzevase" which apparently had the same meaning then as Danish
"vissevasse" today.

Cheers, Kenneth

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hey, Kenneth, Lowlanders!

> My etymological dictionary says that "snak/snack" is Low Saxon and
> originally meant "vrøvl, vås" ie. the same as "vysevaze".

This is consistent with North Saxon _snak_ (noun) and _snakken_ (verb) in a
negative sense.

> I also know that in the older generations "at snakke" is considered a
> bad form of conversation and they prefer the verb "at tale". Today they
> can be used almost in place of each other, but you still see that "tale"
> is of a higher prestige. I heard that 'tale' is barely used in Norwegian
> today.

I remember that, when I was in Denmark, people would use _tale_ in polite
and formal situations and _snakke_ in casual talk.  I also remember once
being corrected (in a well-meaning way) by a middle-aged lady when I (a mere
teen) once used _snakke_ in a conversation with her.  (At that time, people
found it very unusual for a foreigner to choose to learn Danish, and the
nice ones among them really made a fuss and tried to help me.)  Furthermore,
I don't remember ever hearing _tale_ used in conversations while I was in
Norway, only on the radio and TV (and in writing).  It was always _snakke_
where I hung out (with a _shn..._ pronunciation, which I found rather
"disturbing" as a North German having approached Norwegian via Danish).

The Danish case is similar to that of Missingsch (German dialects on LS
substrate): _sprechen_ and _reden_ are more formal, "better," for 'to talk',
while _snacken_ or _schnacken_ is informal.  The latter is also semantically
very flexible in that it can denote 'to speak', 'to talk', 'to converse',
'to chat', 'to gossip', 'to babble', 'to mouth off',  'to tell off', etc.
It depends on the context and tone.

The Norwegian case is similar to that of North Saxon dialects.  _Snakken_
(<snacken>) is *the* word, and _spreken_ or _reden_ are highly unusual and
super-formal.  They sound _geel_ ("yellow"), i.e.,
"High"-German(-influenced).  (Cf. German _sprechen_ and _reden_)

Incidentally, a derivation from _snakken_ and _snak_ is _snakvat_
(<Snackfatt> "babble barrel," "yak vat," etc.), denoting either a talkative
person or a person who likes to talk behind people's backs.

_Spreken_ and _reden_ are more common, if not normal, in the eastern
dialects, also in the Eastphalian ones, I believe.  In the far northwest
(including Eastern Friesland and in the northern part of the Saxon-speaking
region of the Netherlands) it is _praten_ (and variations thereof).  In the
southwestern dialects (Westphalia, Munster Region, and Twente, I believe) it
is _köyren_ (<kören>, <küren>, etc.).

Might this _köyren_ 'to chat' (> 'to talk', 'to speak') be related to Dutch
_kuieren_ 'to (go for a) stroll', 'to saunter', 'to lounge (around)'?  If
so, I assume that the common semantic base would be *"to while away the
time."

> originally meant "vrøvl, vås" ie. the same as "vysevaze".

_Vrøvl_ must be related to (derived from?) LS _vrevel_ ~ _vrövel_ ~ _vrewel_
~ _vröwel_ 'heinous deed', 'crime', 'evil-doing', 'wantonness',
'sin(fulness)' (cf. German _Frevel_, Dutch _vrevel_?).  I feel it's a very
old-fashioned, biblical-sounding word.

I wonder if _vås_ is related to (i.e. the /-l-/ iterative verb form of)
Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _vaseln_ (<faseln>) 'to tarry' > 'to talk idly',
'to drivel' etc. (also German _faseln_).  I guess there must have been a
noun *_vaas_ (*<Faas>) at one time, but I can't think of one being used
nowadays.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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