LL-L "Etymologyl" 2004.03.18 (03) [E]

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From: Peter Snepvangers <snepvangers at optushome.com.au>
Subject: Etymology


Rick Denkers wrote:
"Most du ein siddel an der topmast hebb'n ?" Its the word "siddel" which i
cannot place. In Dutch there is no word which comes close to this. Can
anyone tell me something about its origin?
Ron Hahn wrote:
To me it sounds like "Do you *have* to have a seat at the topmast?"  Might
it mean something like "Do you *have* to be in control?"

Hello Ron and Rick,
could the word siddel somehow refer to the crows nest on the top mast of
sailing ships?
The following link explains meaning of crows nest.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/c_traveller/define.htm
scroll down to crows nest.
Cheers
Peter Snepvangers
snepvangers at optushome.com.au

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From: Peter Snepvangers <snepvangers at optushome.com.au>
Subject: Etymology

Rick Denkers wrote:
"Most du ein siddel an der topmast hebb'n ?" Its the word "siddel" which i
cannot place. In Dutch there is no word which comes close to this. Can
anyone tell me something about its origin?
Hello Rick and Lowlanders,
I came across a Dutch word "sidderrog" meaning torpedo, electric ray. This
is the only nautical term I have found with any similarity to siddel.
The following is a link to the site I used:
http://lookwayup.com/free/dict.htm
Cheers
Peter Snepvangers
snepvangers at optushome.com.au

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From: rick denkers <d.denkers at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.03.18 (09) [E]

Ls,

After a pleasant evening trying to discover the origin of this expression
i can draw  the following preliminary conclusions:
- The word topmast appears not to be dutch.
  This was quite suprising to me since it sounds as dutch as dutch can be.
  It turned out to be a nautical word. And its seems to be widely used in
  English  and American english.

Definition:   \Top"mast\, n. (Naut.)
The second mast, or that which is next above the lower mast,
and below the topgallant mast.

The dutch word for topmast is steng.

- The word "siddel" is not known in dutch either. It does exist in old
English
  however. It means: "from the wide valley". Therefore i cannot see the
  link between this word and "topmast".
  Therefore i think that the conclusion drawn by Reinhard and
  Kenneth Rohde Christiansen might be right.
  Quoting Reinhard:
  "And I suggested that _siddel_ may be related to _sittels_ in Lowlands
Saxon
   of Germany, meaning 'place to sit' (not "place to seat" as I had
mistakenly
   written)."
   Quoting Kenneth:
   "Tja, It is quite normal to make inlaut t's to d's in Grunnigs, so
   Reinhard might be right:

   beedje ~ beetje
   tanne ~ tande ~ tante"

So i think that it was used as:" Shall i give you the most
dangerous/unpleasant
job on board this ship ?"

 Gabriele Kahn:
>I beg to disagree; I think there's a much easier explanation. The "topmast"
>is probably your head or the top thereof.

Yes, that was my first idea too. The problem is that in every other sentence
they use the word "kobbe". So this would be the only expression  where
"topmast"
is used as "kobbe". The people here are very "functional" in their language.
So it didnt sound logical to me.

>And a "siddel" must be something
>related to what I know, unfortunately, as a "Backs" in Lower Saxon (as in
>"Willste'n Backs?"

Where i come from we say : Za'k je es veur de keub boeksen?
In Grunnegs they use: Most klapp'n hebb'n?, or "Most du ein siddel an der
topmast hebb'n? "

It may sound confusing that i use "they". It is simple to explain. I come
from a other part of the (east) netherlands, but i live in S-E Drenthe.
And fascinated by that beautiful language which is spoken here.

Regards,

Rick Denkers

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Peter, Rich, Folks,

English "topmast" is _topmast_ (<Toppmast>) or _marssteng_ (<Marssteng> <
_marstenge_ <Marsstenge>) in Lowlands Saxon (Low German) of coastal Germany.
Like most nautical terms, they have been imported into German: _Toppmast_
and _Marstenge_ respectively.

I am not sure if _topmast_ is an English loan or a native word, or if
English borrowed it from Middle Saxon.  It might be native given that both
components can be native words: _top_ (<Topp>) '(mountain ..., tree ...,
etc.) top', and _mast_ (<Mast>) 'mast'.

Incidentally, Lowlands Saxon (Low German) also has _topsayl_ (<Toppseil>) ~
_topsegel_ (<Toppsegel>) 'topsail'.

_Steng_ (< _stenge_, feminine gender) must be related to (diminutive)
_stengel_ 'stalk' (of a plant).  Specifically, _steng_ denotes the upper
part of any mast (cf. Dutch _steng_, English _stæng_ > "stang," German
_Stange_).  _Mars_, about whose etymology I know nothing, denotes the said
"crows nest."  (This one was not imported into Standard German, where it is
_Mastkorb_, literally "mast basket," though you sometimes find it in stories
told in coastal North German dialects.)  So a _marssteng_ (one of the words
for 'topmast') is the top of a mast (_steng_) on which the crows nest
(_mars_) is located.

I still know nothing about _siddel_ but strongly suspect it to be related to
LS _sittels_ 'place to sit', though it could also be a variant of
_(t)settel_ ~ _(t)seddel_ ~ _(t)sittel_ ~ _(t)siddel_ (<Zettel> ~ <Settel> ~
<Zeddel> ~ <Seddel> ~ <Zittel> ~ <Sittel> ~ <Ziddel> ~ <Siddel>) 'piece of
paper', 'note', 'notice', 'bill', in reference to a work assignment order
perhaps.

So, yes, I tend to go along with you, Rick, in assuming that it refers to a
punitive work assignmen: a position at or on top of the topmast.  However,
as far as I am concerned, the jury is still out as to whether this was
because the job was dangerous or if it was because it was the highest
position in which your face gets whipped by the wind, the latter of which
would explain its use in connection with 'slap in the face'.  Well, it could
really be a combination of both, couldn't it?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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