LL-L "Language survival" 2004.05.04 (06) [E]

Tue May 4 17:00:42 UTC 2004

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (ZeÃªuws)
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From: Mathieu. van Woerkom <Mathieu.vanWoerkom at student.kun.nl>
Subject: Language survival

Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net> wrote:

> a list of languages preserved by the community in spite of the
> hostility of the machinery of government.
> Erse
> Scots (Inglis)
> Welsh
> Coptic
> Fries

I assume with 'Fries' you mean Frisian ('Frysk') as spoken in the
Netherlands?
In that case, I can hardly think of any small regional language which is
supported better (by the machinery and the government).

Some examples: the website of the province of Friesland ('FryslÃ¢n') is
completely available in Frisian (English and German only in summary) besides
Dutch, as well as a lot of policy documents; You can officially use Frisian
in
Court; The 'Fryske Akademie' (a Frisian research organization) was founded
with
money from the Dutch government; Frisian was the first regional language
that
was officially recognized by Dutch government; The Dutch government has
introduced official rules for the use of Frisian in administration; Money is
granted to the Universities of Amsterdam and Groningen to conduct scientific
reasearch to Frisian; Each year the province of Friesland receives money to
support the regional language (although I am not sure how it is nowadays
with
all those cut-backs); The government has introduced Frisian as a possible
subject for national exams.

Considering this, I would rather say that other regional languages in the
Netherlands receive (much) more hostility (or at least ignorance) by the
government. This includes Low Saxon, as Reinhard has already mentioned, but
also Limburgish and especially Zeelandic. However, lots of things have
changed
for the better already, so let's hope for the best!

kind regards,
Mathieu
______________________________
www.streektaal.net

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From: Mike <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2004.05.03 (11) [E]

Moin Lowlanders,

Ron wrote, on LS (vs. German and Dutch), Scotch (vs. English:)

> both languages had been relegated to "dialect" status and thus denied
> "special" rights (LS also in the Netherlands), something that tends to be
> done where a minority (including "regional") language is closely related
to
> the dominant language.

Ron, you surprise me. In many cases, languages in conflict are closely
related, but isnÂ´t this just a consequence of geography? Many examples
suggest that relationship might not be such a big factor: Basque vs.
Castilian/French, Celtic vs. English, Lap vs. Swedish/Finnish/Russian, Kurd
vs. Arabic/Turkish/Parsi, Berber vs. Arabic, indigenous languages in the
Americas, Australia, Indonesia and many more world-wide examples.

Kumpelmenten,
Mike Wintzer

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From: Mike <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2004.05.03 (04) [E]

Dear Mark & Ruth,
Thank you for your beautiful list. A couple of names you quoted had me reach
for my Britannica.
I dislike yes-but people. maybe I should dislike myself for my following
yes-buts:
Modern Hebrew is a brilliant example, how a new language can be reassembled
from extinct and living dialects. I wouldnÂ´t call that survival. Hebrew has
died just as has Latin, a new soul has been given to this new construction
by its modern speakers.
As for the rest, IÂ´m very pessimistic, they are all under severe threat, in
retreat, languages without a navy. But the future, of course, is anybodyÂ´s
guess. LetÂ´s review the situation in 2100. My guess is all these languages
will either have disappeared or been reduced to a pitiable existence. Like
some of the ones on your list are already. IÂ´d like to be wrong....
Just another disheartening example. A recent study has shown that Catalan,
recognised as an official language at the UN, is retreating in the face of
Castilian. It is recognised by the UN (and Bill Gates) not for the 25+
million Catalans in Catalunya, but for the few thousand Andorrans. The
Catalans donÂ´t have a navy, the Andorrans have a powerful equivalent:
Sovereignty.
PS Would you believe that "Miccosukee" (like many other "minority"
languages) is unknown to the Britannica
Mike Wintzer

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language survival

Mike:

> Ron, you surprise me. In many cases, languages in conflict are closely
> related, but isnÂ´t this just a consequence of geography? Many examples
> suggest that relationship might not be such a big factor: Basque vs.
> Castilian/French, Celtic vs. English, Lap vs. Swedish/Finnish/Russian,
Kurd
> vs. Arabic/Turkish/Parsi, Berber vs. Arabic, indigenous languages in the
> Americas, Australia, Indonesia and many more world-wide examples.

Uh-oh!  I think you misunderstood.  Read again:

> > both languages had been relegated to "dialect" status and thus denied
> > "special" rights (LS also in the Netherlands), something that tends to
be
> > done where a minority (including "regional") language is closely related
> to
> > the dominant language

This does not say that other languages are not denied rights or anything of
the sort.  What it does say is that in cases where a minority language (to
be denied recognition and support) is relatively closely related to the
language of power (closely enough to permit a degree of mutual
comprehension), this close relationship offers a government the "convenient"
avenue of declaring the minority language a dialect (group) of the language
of power.  Dialects of the same language usually do not receive "special"
privileges and tend to be banned from education and official communication.
By relegating a closely related minority language to dialect status you get
away with neglecting and banning it.  This was the case with Scots
(vis-Ã -vis English), Lowlands Saxon (vis-Ã -vis German and Dutch), and the
other cases I mentioned, to which I should have added Occitan (vis-Ã -vis
French).

> Basque vs.
> > Castilian/French, Celtic vs. English, Lap vs. Swedish/Finnish/Russian,
Kurd
> > vs. Arabic/Turkish/Parsi, Berber vs. Arabic,

Even in one's wildest fantasies, Basque cannot be declared a dialect of
Castilian or French, nor could Saami ("Lapp") be declared a dialect of
Swedish or Norwegian, not even of Finnish despite a distant relationship
with the latter.  Germany did not go as far as that with Frisian, leave
alone Sorbian and Romany, because this would scientifically altogether
untenable, besides the fact that these languages are associated with
minority ethnicities (while Saxon ethnic awareness has been eroded, i.e.,
Germanized, and they thus could get away with regarding the closely related
LS language as being a German dialect group).  Declaring such languages
dialects of the languages of power happens very rarely, much to the
bemusement and bitter amusement of the linguistic and language rights
communities, such as Kurdish (belonging to the Iranian group of
Indo-European) being referred to as "Mountain Turkish" in Turkey (Turkish
being a Turkic, thus Altaic language), and declaring all minority languages
of France dialects of French to get around a perceived constitutional
problem under pressure from the European Union.

Have I made myself clearer?  Are you still surprised?

Again: A minority language that is closely related to the power language can
be declared a dialect group of the power language, a handy way of
"legitimately" denying it any official status.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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