LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.05.06 (03) [A/E]

Thu May 6 20:50:15 UTC 2004

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (ZeÃªuws)
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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2004.05.04 (06) [E]

Mathieu van Woerkom; Hi!
    Yes, I do mean Frysk. Perhaps I should explain that I also refer to
times past, not necessarily the present policies of present governments.
    Let me add, the same 'skandebord' that once hung on the schoolchild's
neck for failing to speak 'The King's English' in my country at the turn of
the last Century was, my family told me, also used in Friesland, no less
than in Ireland & Wales; the cribbaud?
    Yrs, Mark

Mike, Hi!
    Well, Mike, I disagree with you in the case of Latin & of Hebrew. Let me
explain.
    Language is an artefact of communication & cultural transmission. It is
not, by exclusive definition, a product of mother-tongue inculcation &
folk-transmission.
    How can it be? Just because I learned Modern Hebrew as an adult does
that mean I don't speak Hebrew?
    & English; the fact that I learned it mostly from books, does that mean
I can't strip the hide off you with the raw side of my tongue in it? I mean,
we are communicating, aren't we?
    See, we should beware of giving too much force to the term 'Dead
Language". When Hezekiah's Jews returned from the Babylonian Exile, already,
they spoke Aramaic. They found this also the common tongue of Judea when
they returned. No men learned their Hebrew anymore, or very few, from their
mother's breast. But they continued to learn it as a liturgical tongue & as
a language of Law, & they started from the age of five. That practice has
continued unchanged, at least among the Practising Orthodox, from then until
now. Even if Ben Jehuda had never set pen to paper, & Israel still a sweet
dream, men would be communicating in Hebrew, several dialects of Hebrew, &
putting origional work to paper in Hebrew.
    Latin? The same again. When, after the final death-throes of the Roman
Empire, & no mother lulled her child to sleep in that tongue, it was still
being taught in school, growing, developing, & developing dialectic forms
clear across Europe. Scholar spoke & corresponded with scholar, & in the
process saved for posterity a vast cultural treasure, established a Great
Church (which some of us have very mixed feelings about), launched Humanism
& the Renaissance, & is still spoken today by more people than were alive in
the Great Cato's Rome.
    As Mr. R.F. Hahn pointed out in his recent correspondence on the
subject, Swahili has taken the leap from being a 'trade argot' to a mother
tongue. This does not invalidate its status (read usefulness) as a trade
argot. I aver that the same applies to a language that moves in the other
direction. By the way, I believe Afrikaans - Die Taal - was once a trade
argot in the VOC.
    Catalan: I'm sad to hear you tell me this. Can you possibly be wrong? I
have heard that the thrust of economic development in that whole region is
powered by Catalan speakers; so much so that Japanese businessmen recommend
to their colleagues that they learn Catalan. As they say, from time to time
the conversation breaks out in Catalan, & THAT'S when it gets interesting.
    Miccossukee? Tell me more! It's not in my Parlett. Has it maybe another
name?
Yrs Sincerely,
    Mark

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2004.05.03 (11) [E]

Hi All: Groete Elsie Zinsser:
    I'm sad to hear this, your report of the hostility to Fanagolo among
Black miners. Of course I have no 'interest' in the language preferences of
another. What he says should go - for himself. However, Fanagolo in itself
is semantically interesting, but enough is preserved to serve for the study
of that sort of development into posterity. I suppose that is enough.
    A pity, though, that Blacks see it that way. In our polyglottal economy
there should be one common medium of communication, particularly in such a
highly hazardous & technologically demanding working environment as mining.
& what is the alternative - English? Heaven help us!
    What is the medium of instruction & communication in the adult education
programs? How will it help them down the mine? By all means, let them
continue; adult education should be given every encouragement. However, to
my mind the Bantu need no 'help' with language skills, nor with literacy.
    Now, it may be the experience, it may be the 'basic adult language
education', or it may simply be the sort of man who looks for work down a
mine, but to my mind a muntu - or a mlungu - comes out of it a whole lot
more developed a personality than one who hasn't.
    So terloops: Hoekom praat ons Engels tussen mekaar?
Die Uwe,
    Mark.

Dear Reinhard,
    Reluctantly, I would not include 'non-support' or 'ignoring' under
hostility, & 'indirectly discouraging' will always be arguable. I would
rather get on with language use (or study) than argue about language use (or
study).
    Your point about Scots tugs me near to the issue of Lowland Saxon. It is
a tragedy that the only Celtic tongue too vibrant not to be concerned about
its own survival is Welsh. Scots Gaelic has been eroding away since before
Jamie IV, & the same great people that dropped Gaelic, are now going over to
RP English, which, by the way, they speak better than the native born (&
they do most things better than the native born). What is it about the
Scots, that they do everything so well except uphold their own interests?
    It seems to me that a man speaks, or teaches, or learns a language
because he will, & it is crass & contemptible to try & stop him. But no
Power will compel him to teach or treasure a tongue against his will. Why
waste your energy? By all means, give him interest & encouragement to learn
your own, or any other, & helas, economic self interest is often quite
enough.
    Am I against language evangelism? Not at all, I am happy to help another
man to speak my tongue, & learn to speak it well, but that is the limit. Too
much supervision will backfire.
    I refer to a good example of something bad that happened here in my
country. In about 1975 the Republic of S Africa came to within an ace of
being able to make secondary education up to the twelfth year universally
available & compulsory for all. They enacted legislation to integrate all
education departments, & all curriculum standards, but there was a problem -
not enough teachers in any of the Bantu languages or English. The only
community with a surplus of teachers is the Afrikaans.
     Soooo, they recruited the teachers, sent them to the Bantu schools, &
set some of the subjects in Afrikaans, a language the teachers could teach
in, & the pupils could at least assay to follow in. But it was cheek. They
revolted. That happened in 1976, & it was the straw that broke the camel's
back (Old South Africa that is).
    You cannot push a mule. You must lead him. So also with people.
    & Ã  propos language instruction, I see two problems. If you wish to
teach a language, like High German, in that class you would punish a pupil
who fails to use it to the best of his ability; after all, the only way to
learn a language is to use it. In other classes; well communication is
essential to transmit information. The finer points of Geography can be
taught as well in Plattisch as in Hochdeutsch - even better if that is the
pupil's own native tongue. However, what is the teacher's native tongue? He
can best impart what he knows in his own language. If you want the best out
of him, you will encourage him to do so.
    The burden lies with the community to see that teachers are trained to
impart the best education available in the native tongue of that community,
& if it fails, that community must answer, not 'Them' or 'the Government'.
    As far as I can see it, a community that makes teaching the young an
avocation, & respects teachers, will never die; nor will their language.
    Yrs sincerely,
Mark

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Haai, Mark!

Dankie vir die belangwekkende verduideliking (hierbo) van jou visie oor
hierdie onderwerp.  Dit lyk my ons standpunte is meer of minder dieselfde.

>    Language is an artefact of communication & cultural transmission. It is
> not, by exclusive definition, a product of mother-tongue inculcation &
> folk-transmission.
>     How can it be? Just because I learned Modern Hebrew as an adult does
> that mean I don't speak Hebrew?

If people only know and use a language, everything else will fall into
place.  This can be seen in the case of the early Jewish settlers of Israel.
None of them was a native speaker of Hebrew, but because they used it and
developed it, their children and/or grandchildren turned out to be native
speakers.

> No men learned their Hebrew anymore, or very few, from their
> mother's breast. But they continued to learn it as a liturgical tongue &
as
> a language of Law, & they started from the age of five.

I understand that in the past traveling learned Jewish males would use
Hebrew in communicating even verbally with foreign Jewish communities whose
primary language they did not know.  Similarly, Latin has been used even
conversationally among European scholars and clerics as an international
lingua franca, and this is still the case in the Vatican.  (Furthermore,
there are secular international organizations that use Latin as a living
language.)  Also, Classical Arabic -- apparently nobody's first language --
is being used not only in writing and in speeches but also in actual
conversation among Arabic speakers whose native varieties are mutually
poorly comprehensible, also as the preferred Muslim lingual franca used by
people whose native languages are not Arabic.  (In al-AndalÃ»s/Andalusia
under "Moorish" reign, some of the best speakers and writers of Arabic were
not Muslim and did not have Arabic as their first language.  Some of the
greatest writers and scholars were Jewish and Christian.  So great was many
Andalusian Christians' love of and proficiency in Arabic that they had a
hard time stopping to use it after the fall of al-AndalÃ»s and the return of
the Dark Ages beginning of the Inquisition.)

Sadly, low prestige of a language variety (no matter how much prestige and
international currency it once enjoyed, as in the case of Lowlands Saxon) is
frequently reinforced by the powers that be, albeit somewhat indirectly by
means of exclusion and non-support.  This low prestige often affects the
speakers themselves, thus beginning a vicious cycle of shame and
self-loathing and stifling language activists' reinvigoration attempts.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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