LL-L "Phonology" 2004.05.13 (06) [E]

Thu May 13 17:07:12 UTC 2004

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Frédéric Baert <baert_frederic at CARAMAIL.COM>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.05.06 (02) [E]

>From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
>Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.05.05 (09) [E]
>
>
>  From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>  Subject: Phonology
>
>  Frédéric, Luc, Marco and others,
>
>  I have a question about West Flemish and Zeelandic h-deletion:
>
>  Is there any phonetic differences between words that start with /h/
(which
>  is deleted) and those that (supposedly) start with a vowel. More
>  specifically, do words that (supposedly) start with a vowel actually
start
>  with a glottal stop (as in English, German, Lowlands Saxon, etc.)? For
>  example, are there any phonetic differences between the equivalents of
the
>  following Standard Dutch words?
>
>  hebben - ebben
>  haal - aal
>  heer - eer
>  houd - oud
>  heen - een
>
>  There is a similar situation in Modern Hebrew, which I watched develop
>among
>  younger speakers in the early 1970s. Supposedly under French and/or
>  Castilian influence, /h/ came to be deleted. However, underlying /h/
>  remained word-initially destinct as phonetic zero, while words that
>  (supposedly) begin with a vowel (only if written in romanization, in
>Hebrew
>  script with ? _'alef_ and ? _`ayn_) have a glottal stop ([?]).* For
>  example, Modern Hebrew ?? _hem_ [?m] (~ conservative [h?m]) 'they
(masc.)'
>  vs. ?? _(')em_ [??m] 'mother'.
>
>  *(In Ancient Hebrew, and still in Hebrew used in Arabic-speaking
>  environments, the ? _'alef_ represents a glottal stop [?], and _`ayin_
>  represents the uvular equivalent [?], directly corresponding to Arabic ?
>  _'alif_ and ? _`ayn_ respectively.)
>
>  Regards,
>  Reinhard/Ron
>
>Hi Ron,
>Indeed, there is a dfference between words that begin with an "h" and words
>that begin with a vowel.
>There is a more or less pronounced glottal stop for words that begin with a
>vowel. Some of the stops are hardly heard but the local speakers do hear
the
>difference.
>groetjes
>luc vanbrabant
>oekene

Hi

Please forgive me to reply to this so late but I had very few time and the
question is a bit problematic for me.
The simpler answer first :
Glottal stop does exist in french flemish. I discovered it thanks to your
question Ron! In fact, I had never noted that I use sometimes a glottal
stop even when speaking french. It seems that it is part of my flemish
accent since it is relatively natural to me to do a glottal stop whereas a
french friend to whom I asked to do it found that very difficult and very
unnatural.

The problem is, it is very hard for me but also for my mother (I asked her!)
to say if use of glottal stop depends from a difference between words
beginning with a vowel or with a "h". It seemed to me that it was more a
problem of accentuation of a word in particular conditions and also it
seems that certain vowel are more easily pronunced with a glottal stop than
others.i.e. flemish "u" vs flemish "y".

Another source of difficulty is that, at least french flemish don't like
words beginning with a vowel or a "h". There are example but not so many!
Indeed, in french flemish, it is impossible for a substantive to begin with
a vowel or a "h" because substantive is always (no exception!)preceeded
with an article (definite or undefinite).
for example:
'n hound (litt. "the dog" but also "dog")
the "'n" cannot be detached any more.
"'n hound", "een hound", 'een schoonen hound".
Same things for "'n aepe" ("the ape" or "ape")
There is always a "n" before a masculine substantive.
For a neutral substantive :
"'t huus", "een huus", "een schoon huus"
In all cases, there is a consonnant before de "h".
etc...

But I found some examples of sentences beginning with a vowel or a "h" :
"hoe gaet 't ?"
I did never heard it with a glottal stop and I would find that odd! But
theorically it's possible.

In contrast in the sentences:
"waer is 'n boek?
Up 'n tafel."

I and my mother can use a glottal stop before de "u" of up. But this is not
systematic and both are well understood. And I think a french flemish will
preferentially answer :
"'n boek is up 'n tafel." to prevent use of a sentence beginning with a
vowel.

Here what I can say about this at the moment.
I'm sorry not to have been as concise as Luc.

Regards
Frederic Baert

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Thanks, dear Frédéric!  No need to apologize.  Your contributions are always
very interesting, certainly to me, no doubt to others as well.  It's
important to us to find out as much as possible about Flemish people,
language and culture in France.

I am glad I have sensitized you to the presence and absence of glottal
stops.  My experiences are the same as yours.  People who do not use glottal
stops in their own language varieties find it hard to produce it in other
varieties, and those that do use it find it very hard to start an initial
vowel without it (after a pause).  Having grown up on the glottal stop side
of the tracks I had a hard time learning to omit glottal stops in Romance
languages.  There's hope: it can be done.

Folks, which leads me to another interesting topic: the voiced /h/ [ɦ] in
Afrikaans.  It's a relatively rare sound as far as the world's possible
sounds go.  (Say "h" and at the same time produce voicing, which you can
tell if you feel some vibration when you lay a finger on your throat.)  You
find this sound in Czech and Slovak, derived from older /g/ (e.g., _holub_
'dove', _kniha_ 'book', _Praha_ 'Prague', _Bůh_ 'God').  It corresponds to
voiceless <h> in Upper Sorbian (though written but not pronounced before
other consonants and syllable-finally) and in Ukrainian (<г> [h] ), to a
fricative /g/ [ɣ] in Belusian (<г>), and to <g> [g] in other Slavonic
languages (including Lower Sorbian).

Does anyone have any idea why Afrikaans /h/ is voiced in most contexts?
What might its origin be?  Is this sound used in any Dutch, Flemish or
Zeelandic varieties?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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