LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.05.19 (02) [E]
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Wed May 19 17:03:03 UTC 2004
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Floor en Lyanne van Lamoen <fvanlamoen at planet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.05.18 (11) [E]
Dear Roger and Heiko,
> From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.05.16 (02) [E]
>
> Hi Heiko,
>
> I read your remarks about the pronunciation of Dutch initial g. I'm
> afraid
> I can't concur with your view concerning the realisation of the anlaut-g
> in
> Flemish. It is true that the Dutch in northern parts usually pronounce g-
> as
> a voiceless guttural (rather scrapy) fricative sound. In southern parts
> (below the so-called "Grote rivieren") and certainly in Flemish initial g
> is
> a voiced velar fricative, which the Dutch usually call "de zachte g".
In addition:
In the coastal areas of Belgium (perhaps in all "real" Flemish, I am not
sure) and in Zeeland the initial g is often pronounced as kind of h. That's
why Goes in carnival time is called "hanzehat" (ganzengat).
Kind regards,
Floor.
----------
From: Frédéric Baert <baert_frederic at CARAMAIL.COM>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.05.18 (11) [E]
Hi to all
>From: Ben J. Bloomgren <godsquad at cox.net>
>Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.05.18 (01) [E]
>
>Hello Ron, Frederic and all. We have spoken of French West Flemish. Does
>that include the areas of Brussels, Antwerp and Ghent?
>
>----------
>
>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Language varieties
>
>Hi, Ben!
>
>> Does
>> that include the areas of Brussels, Antwerp and Ghent?
>
>No, those are in Belgium. We are talking about the area of France (at the
>Belgium border) in which Flemish is or recently was spoken. This roughly
>corresponds to the French county (départment) of Nord-Pas de Calais and
>includes the city of Dunkerken/Dunkerque (German _Dünkirchen_). It's the
>northernmost tip of France. It is rather close to southeastern England
>(Dover etc.) across the English Channel.
>
>I'm sure our own Frédéric Baert (whose home area this is) and others are
>more knowledgeable about this and could give you details if you are
>interested.
>
>Regards,
>Reinhard/Ron
>
Hi Ben, Ron and all
I'm sorry not to have been clear enough. When I speak of french west
flemish,I speak of the variety of west flemish as spoken in France. You can
report to the excellent map of the site at
http://www.lowlands-l.net/map.htm.
You will see that Brussels, Antwerpen and Gent are totally excluded from
west flemish.
I'm always careful to precise french west flemish since west flemish in
France is more archaic than west flemish in Belgium. Since we have been
annexed during the 17th century, I think standard Dutch did not have such a
strong influence as it did on zeelandic and belgian west flemish.
French annexion was a chance since french west flemish is often considered
as a living fossil. It was a bad luck since nowadays very few people still
speak it.
However it is clear that french west flemish, belgian west flemish, and
zeelandic are dialects from a same language, closely related to dutch : I'm
one of those who consider west flemish and dutch as two closely but
separated languages.
One other precision : I agree with Marco when he says that french loans in
french west flemish are very recent because I think these loans appeared in
generations who speak both french and flemish. But in France west flemish
disappears very quickly and the situation is often distributed on three
generations : one that speak flemish and very few french, one that speak
both flemish and french and the latest that speak french and very few
flemish. I think french loans must be used in the case of the second one.
I hope this was of interest
Regards
Frederic Baert
----------
From: marco [evenhuiscommunicatie] <marco at evenhuiscommunicatie.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.05.18 (11) [E]
Ben wrote:
> Hello Ron, Frederic and all. We have spoken of French West Flemish. Does
> that include the areas of Brussels, Antwerp and Ghent?
Names like Flemish, West Flemish, East Flemish and French Flemish can be
very confusing. I think Ron gave a good explanation, but nevertheless an
overview of these names and their meaning:
Flemish: nowadays mostly used for the standard Dutch with certain
southern/Belgian features spoken as the standard language in the northern
part of Belgium (the written language there is just standard Dutch).
Sometimes still used for the group of dialects spoken in the former county
of Flanders (now roughly the provinces of East and West Flanders in Belgium
and the western part of the Départment Nord in France). That's only a part
of the northern half of Belgium.
West Flemish: the regional language of (roughly) the Belgian province of
West Flanders. Dialects of West Flemish are also spoken in Zeeland Flanders
in the Netherlands and French Flanders in France (western part of the
Départment Nord). Some speakers simply refer to this variety as Flemish
(Vlaams), which is very confusing when used in a more broader context (like
on this list - on Lowlands I personally would recommend the name West
Flemish in order to make a distinction between the Standard Dutch/Flemish of
Belgium and proper West Flemish). Very closely related to Zeelandic.
French Flemish: a group of dialects of West Flemish spoken in northern
France. The area used to include cities like Boulogne, Calais and Dunkerque
(Duinkerke, English Dunkirk) but is now a quite small and rural area between
Dunkerque, Lille and Saint-Omer. In some ways quite distinct from other West
Flemish dialects and in some ways even more close to Zeelandic than to West
Flemish. Also called South Flemish or French Flemish and generally referred
to by speakers as 'Vlaemsch' or 'Vlemsch'. Check
www.sip.be/dialect/scholen/school9/poefra.htm for sound samples with poems
in French West Flemish.
Zeelandic: the regional language of (roughly) the Dutch province of Zeeland.
Very closely related to West Flemish and sharing some interesting features
with French West Flemish.
East Flemish: a group of transitional dialects spoken roughly in the Belgian
province East Flanders and in the Hulst area in Zeeland (Netherlands).
Closely related to west-Flemish in the west, but generally considered a
dialect of Brabantish by linguists.
So West Flemish (including French West Flemish) and Zeelandic form a very
homogenous group of dialects, spoken in the coastal area in the southwest of
the Netherlands, the west of Belgium and the extreme northwest of France.
Speakers from e.g. Ouddorp in the extreme north of the Zeelandic area can
easily speak with speakers from French Flanders.
Hope this is of some help.
Regards,
Marco
----------
From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.05.18 (11) [E]
> From: Ben J. Bloomgren <godsquad at cox.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.05.18 (01) [E]
>
> Hello Ron, Frederic and all. We have spoken of French West Flemish. Does
> that include the areas of Brussels, Antwerp and Ghent?
I'm sorry I never find the time for upgrading my web pages, but these urls
with maps may still do:
http://home-13.tiscali-business.nl/~tpm09245/lang/lg/wv/mapjac.htm
http://home-13.tiscali-business.nl/~tpm09245/lang/lg/wv/peewv.htm
http://home-13.tiscali-business.nl/~tpm09245/lang/lg/wv/wvuits2.htm
http://home-13.tiscali-business.nl/~tpm09245/lang/lg/wv/wvuits1.htm
France:
http://home-13.tiscali-business.nl/~tpm09245/lang/lg/fra/pee1.htm
http://home-13.tiscali-business.nl/~tpm09245/lang/lg/fra/oe1.htm
Other references and samples, start from url:
http://home-13.tiscali-business.nl/~tpm09245/lang/langbel.htm
Hope this helps,
Roger
----------
From: Ben J. Bloomgren <godsquad at cox.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.05.18 (11) [E]
Thanks.
----------
From: Georg.Deutsch at esa.int <Georg.Deutsch at esa.int>
Subject: "Language varieties"
Reinhard,
few days ago you wrote about Old Prussian. If I remember correctly (I don't
have your note any more) you mentioned that this Baltic language is extinct
since about 1300. If my memory serves me right, I once have had learned
that
there are written documents from the 16th century (however, only liturgic
ones, who could have the same status as Latin in catholic churches in the
19th century or toady Coptic in Egyptian Christian churches, thus the status
of an in everyday life dead language) and I also had learned that Old
Prussian's death as a spoken language is considered to have taken place only
during the 17th century.
Is there a clear evidence ?
I bring this up here in Lowlands-L only because if Old Prussian lived long
enough, there could have been an interference with Low Saxon speakers in
whose descendants are now living mainly in the Americas.
In short, what I am after:
is there any sign of contact with Old Prussian in todays variants of
Plautdietsch? Maybe one borrowed word? Or is this for any reason considered
to be not even possible?
Would you - or of course Reuben Epp, or somebody else - know?
regards
Georg
----------
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties
Thanks, everyone, for the interesting information about Western Flemish in
France. The map Frédéric points out is our own, created by none other than
our own capable and industrious Mathieu van Woerkom, with input from other
Lowlanders. (We can create resources of this type if people take the
initiative and offer help.)
Servus, Georg! Good to hear from you again.
> few days ago you wrote about Old Prussian. If I remember correctly (I
don't
> have your note any more) you mentioned that this Baltic language is
extinct
> since about 1300.
Actually, what I said was this:
> It started
> fading with the 13th century's Germanic and Polish encroachment, and it
was
> recorded on its deathbed in the 14th century.
So, its decline began in the 13th century, and we have Old Prussian written
records beginning with the 14th century when it was becoming endangered or
moribund. This does not mean that was the end of it, that there weren't
still enclaves that held on longer. (This applies to West Slavonic
Draveno-Palabian of the Lunenburg area, too, by the way. Its last native
speaker died at the very end of the 18th century, but she was an oddity,
because the death of the language tends to be stated as having been around
1750.)
You are quite right, Georg. The apparently latest important literary pieces
in Old Prussian survive from 1545 and 1561. There are also Prussian
translations of Martin Luther's _Small Catechism_. I don't know if anyone
is really sure, but I would assume that the language petered out sometime in
the 17th century. Perhaps a few enclaves held on after that. I would be
interested to know if they did. From my paternal grandmother (who was from
that area) and from East Prussian refugees and their relatives I have heared
mention of their communities having had members that were _Pruzzen_ (or
_Prußen_), as ethnic Prussians were called to distinguish them from
_Preußen_ in reference to the German-doninated state. I didn't pay much
attention to that then, but now I would love to know what they meant by
that. Were they last remaining ethnic Prussians (with or without their own
language), or were they Lithuanians living outside Lithuania, thus _Pruzzen_
in the sense of "Baltic"? Does anyone know? Some sources seem to make a
difference between _Pruzzen_ and Lithuanians of the area (e.g., _In diesem
Landstrich lebten die Nachkommen der kolonisierten Pruzzen und nicht wenige
Litauer (das Gebiet wird Ostpreußen oder Kleinlitauen genannt)
[http://pirmojiknyga.mch.mii.lt/Leidiniai/kultkont/prussia.de.htm]). So, I
tend to believe that some people were still identified as _Pruzzen_ for
quite some time. Yes, and I, too, assume that at least Middle Saxon had
direct contacts with Old Prussian.
Incidentally, a few things are known about the pre-Christian Baltic
Prussians. They were a largely agrarian society, and contemporary sources
describe them as freedom-loving, peave-loving, deeply spiritual, and very
hospitable. Though they were known as peace-loving and peaceful and as
minding their own business, they quickly acquired a strong military defense
system and put up very valiant fights when first Vikings attacked them, and
then post-Viking Danish coastal marauders, Russians and "Germans" started
attempting to occupy their very desirable land, the latter, as usual, with
the purported intent to Christianize the people. The pre-Christian religion
of the Prussians was dominated by Perkunos, the god of thunder and lightning
(thus the same as Germanic Wotan, Woden, Odin, etc.). There were also
Svaigstix, the god of heavenly light, Pikollos, the harvest god, and (!)
Hulda or Holla, the goddess of fertility. (Many of us know this lady, don't
we?)
Here is the Old Prussian Lord's Prayer in the apparently earliest known
form:
O! Dawe nuson kas thu asse andangon.
Swintints wirst twais emmens.
Pergeis twais laeims.
Twais quaits audasseisin na semmey key andangon.
Nusan deininan geittin dais numons schindeinan.
Bha atwerpeis noumans nuson auschautins
kay mas atwer pimay nuson auschantnikamans.
Bha ny wedais mans enperbandan.
Schlait is rankeis mans assa wargan.
This is a later, revised version:
Tawa nusan, kas tu assei en dangu,
busei swintints twais emmens,
(ja) pereilai twais Riks,
(ja) audaseisi twais kwaits en dangu tit deige na zemmei.
Nusan deinnin geitin dais numans shandeinan,
be etwerpeis numans nusans aushautins,
kaigi deigi mes etwerpimai swajamans aushautenzhikamans.
Be ni wedais mans en perbandan
shlaits izrankinnais mans ezze wissmu wargu.
Lithuanian:
Teve Musu kuris esi dangujè!
Teesie šveñtas tà vo vardas, teateinie tà vo karalyste,
Teesie tà vo valià kaip danguje, taip ir zemeje.
Kasdienes musu dúonos dúok mùms šiañdien
ir atlèisk mums musu kaltès,
kaip ir mes atleidziame sà vo kaliniñkams.
Ir neléisk musu gùndyti, bèt gélbek mùs nuo pikto.
Lithuanian version of 1972:
Teateinie tavo karalystÄ—.
Teesi tavo valia, kaip danguje, taip ir ant žemės.
Kasdienės mūsų kaltes,
kaip ir mes atleidžiame savo kaltininkams.
Ir nevesk mus į pagundą, bet gelbėk mus nuo pikto.
Nes tavo yra karalystė ir macis ir garbė iki amžių.
Lithuanian version of Northern East Prussia:
Tēwe musù, kurs esse danguje,
T’essie ßwenscamas tawo wardas.
Te ateinie taw karalyste.
Te nusidüdie tawo wale kaip danguje, taip ir ant źémes.
Düną musù dieniską dük mums ir ße dieną.
Ir atléisk mums musù kaltes, kaip mes atléidzam sawo kaltiemus.
Ir ne wesk mus I pagundima, bet gélbēk mus nū pikto;
Nēsa tawo yra karalyste, ir macis ir garbe ikki ámźù. Amen.
Latvian:
Musu Tevs debesis,
Svetits, lai top Tavs vards
Lai nak Tava valstiba,
Tavs prats, lai notiek
Ka debesis, ta ari virs zemes
Musu dienisko maizi dod mums sodien
Un piedod mums musu paradus
Ka ari mes piedodam saviem paradniekiem
Un neieved mus kardinasana,
Bet atpesti mus no launa
Jo Tev pieder valstiba
Speks un gods
Muzigi muzos. Amen.
Latgalian, also a Baltic language, spoken in Latvia but hitherto officially
ignored (to which the European Language Charter will hopefully put an end):*
TÄvs myusu, kas esi debesÄ«s,
svÄ“teits lai tÅ«p Tovs vÅrds,
lai atnÅk Tova vaļsteiba,
Tova vala lai nūteik kai debesīs,
tai ari vērs zemes.
Myusu ikdīniškū maizi dūd mums šudiņ
un atlaid mums myusu porÅdus,
kai ari mes atlaižam sovim porÅdnÄ«kim,
un naÄ«ved myusu kÄrdynÅÅ¡onÄ,
bet atpestej myusus nu ļauna.
Ä€men.
* See http://www.geocities.com/latgalian/ and
http://lists.partners-intl.net/pipermail/neww-rights/2001-May/000512.html
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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