LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.05.25 (03) [D/E]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 25.MAY.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.05.25 (02) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Idiomatica
>
> Folks,
>
> I am wondering about the spread of a certain idiomatic phrase among the
> Lowlands language varieties.  This involves the word "deal" (in the
> somewhat
> archaic sense "portion") and its equivalents: "a great/good deal (of)"
> having come to mean "much" or "many."
>
> Lowlands Saxon (Low German) has exactly the same expression with the
> same
> meaning:
>
> 'n groot deyl
> (<'n groot Deel>)
> "a large/great deal"
>
> 'n goud deyl
> (<'n goot Deel>)
> "a good deal"
>
> In many contexts, these are exchangeable with _veel_ 'much', 'many',
> 'a lot
> of'.
>
> Examples:
>
> Daar kanst 'n groot deyl turisten seyn.
> (<Daar kannst 'n groot Deel Touristen sehn.>)
> You can see a lot of/many tourists there.
>
> Sey drinkt 'n goud deyl wyn.
> (<Se drinkt 'n goot Deel Wien.>)
> They drink a lot of wine.
>
> However, there are many cases in which this may imply "large portion
> of,"
> though it can be translated as "much," "a lot of," as well.
>
> Examples:
>
> Daar gayt 'n groot deyl turisten hin.
> (<Daar geiht 'n groot Deel Touristen hin.>)
> Many tourists go there.
>
> This is just a step away from the following, involving use of _vun
> dey_ "of
> the":
>
> Daar gayt 'n groot deyl vun dey turisten hin.
> (<Daar geiht 'n groot Deel vun de Touristen hin.>)
> Many of the tourists go there.
>
> And also:
>
> Sey drinkt 'n goud deyl vun d'n wyn.
> (<Se drinkt 'n goot Deel vun'n Wien.>)
> They drink a lot of the wine. | They drink the better part of the wine.
>
> I know that Dutch and Afrikaans use _deel_ in a number of phrases, but
> I am
> not aware of exactly the equivalents of the above.  There are,
> however, the
> related phrases:
>
> D: voor een groot deel
> A: vir 'n groot deel
> lit. "for a great deal"
V: 'n groôt deêl (E: a larger part)
V: Een groôt deêl is ziek (E: Many of them are sick)
V: 't Groôtste deêl is up (E: The biggest part is gone)
V: Ze drink'n e' goed deêl van de wijn up.(E:They drink most of the
wine)
V: Doar gaot groôt deêl van de toerist'n naortoe. (E: Most of the
tourists go there)
All this is used with other sayings.

> meaning 'to a large extent', which can be used in Lowlands Saxon as
> well
> _vör 'n groot/goud deyl_ (<för 'n groot/goot Deel>), literally "for a
> large/good deal=part."
>
> So far I can find the said idiomatic phrase meaning "much," "many" or
> "a lot
> of" (in a non-partitive sense) only in English and Lowlands Saxon (Low
> German).  Does it occur in other varieties as well, or might this be a
> Saxonism?  If it is a Saxonism, can it be found in Old English and Old
> Saxon
> literature?
>
> Thanks and regards,
> Reinhard/Ron
Groetjes Ron,
And all my best wishes for a good recovery.
luc vanbrabant
oekene

---------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Idiomatica

Hi Ron,

The usage of "deal" in Lowlands Saxon, that you mentioned in your last
message, is no Saxonism I'm afraid. In my version of Brabantish it is
used in exactly the same way as you described.

Examples:

Ne giëln diël minse zèn ni content (B) ~ (litterally) Een (ge)heel deel
mensen zijn niet tevreden (D) = Veel mensen zijn ontevreden. (D)

De grütstn diël van dei maññ és ni bekwáám vö zöñ náám te schraëven. ~
(litterally) Het grootste deel van die mannen is niet bekwaam voor zijn
naam te schrijven (D) = Het merendeel van die lui kan zijn naam niet
schrijven. (D)

I'll keep you informed...deal? *s*

Greetz,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.05.25 (02) [E]

Dear Reinhard,
    Good to hear from you, & as we say, 'vasbyt!'

> I am wondering about the spread of a certain idiomatic phrase among the
> Lowlands language varieties.  This involves the word "deal" (in the
somewhat
> archaic sense "portion") and its equivalents: "a great/good deal (of)"
> having come to mean "much" or "many."

> Lowlands Saxon (Low German) has exactly the same expression with the same
> meaning:
> 'n groot deyl
> (<'n groot Deel>)
> "a large/great deal"
(Afrikaans)
'n groot deel - a big share
Hy het 'n groot deel bygedra - He contributed substantially
Hy bekom die groter deel. - He deserves the greater share
'n groot deel - a big part
'n  Groot deel van die stadion het ineengestort. - An extensive section of
the stadium collapsed.
Grotendeels - largely
Die huidige Bestel se inset is grotendeels skyn. - The current
Establishment's input is largely show.
And then of course there are shares - aandele.
(For the most part, GROOT WOORDEBOEK) Kritzinger, Steyn, Schoonees en
Cronjè)

> 'n goud deyl
> (<'n goot Deel>)
> "a good deal"
I don't recall hearing anybody use something like " 'n goeie deel" in
Afrikaans. So, also, for the rest, but perhaps others can find examples. Is
our usage in this context then restricted, or did it fail to spread?

    By the way, can anybody help me with the Afrikaans surname 'Odendaal'? I
take it this means 'Woden's Share' in Old Norse. Is that correct?

    Yrs Sincerely,
Mark

----------

From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.05.25 (02) [E]

Hello Reinhard/Ron,

In Brabant we have a similar expression, but then with 'heel' (whole):
"een heel deel (mensen, geld)" (a great deal of people, money).
Cheerio,

Roger

----------

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2004.05.25 (02) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Idiomatica
Hi Ron, I'm glad you're back.
Here are the versions for West-Limburgish (Vliermaal)

L: En heil deel:   E: many
L: En heil deel minse gon noeë de kerrek.
E: Many people go to church.

> Daar kanst 'n groot deyl turisten seyn.
> (<Daar kannst 'n groot Deel Touristen sehn.>)
> You can see a lot of/many tourists there.
L: Doeë kónt dzje en heil deel toeriste tegekome.

> Sey drinkt 'n goud deyl wyn.
> (<Se drinkt 'n goot Deel Wien.>)
> They drink a lot of wine.
L: Se drénke en heil deel wèèn

> Daar gayt 'n groot deyl turisten hin.
> (<Daar geiht 'n groot Deel Touristen hin.>)
> Many tourists go there.
L: Doë gèt en heil deel toeriste hénne.

> Daar gayt 'n groot deyl vun dey turisten hin.
> (<Daar geiht 'n groot Deel vun de Touristen hin.>)
> Many of the tourists go there.
L: En heil deel van de toeriste gèt doeë hénne.

L: De growte po:t van de toeriste gèt doeë hénnz.
E: The majority (the major part) of the tourists go there.

> Sey drinkt 'n goud deyl vun d'n wyn.
> (<Se drinkt 'n goot Deel vun'n Wien.>)
> They drink a lot of the wine. | They drink the better part of the wine.

L: Se drénke en heil deel wèèn.
E: They drink quite a lot of wine.
L: Se drénke en heil deel van de wèèn.
E: They drink much of the wine (we have in stock)..
L: Se hebbe de growte po:t opgedrónke.
E: They drunk more than half (of the stock)

Regards,
Roger

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Thanks for the responses and wishes, guys!

Let me reiterate that in this context I am mostly interested in the semantic
extension "a great/good deal of" = (1) "a large portion of" > (2)
"much/many," namely stage 2 of the development.

Actually, _'n heyl deyl_ (<'n heel Deel>) (lit.: "a whole deal/part") sounds
rather familiar to me in Lowlands Saxon also, also _'n ganssen deyl_ in
dialects that use _ganss_ instead of _heyl_ for 'whole'.

Mark:

>     By the way, can anybody help me with the Afrikaans surname 'Odendaal'?
I
> take it this means 'Woden's Share' in Old Norse. Is that correct?

If you respond to this, please do so under the separate subject line
"Names," since subjects must be discussed separately.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: Happy Shavuot to those of you who celebrate it!

================================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
======================================================================