LL-L "Language use" 2004.11.29 (04) [D/E/German]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 29.NOV.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From: Felix Hülsey <felix.huelsey at gmx.de>
Subject: Language use

Beste Ingmar en allemaal,

Ingmar schreef op 28.11.04 (onder Resources):

>Sehr interessant Felix, dass in Hamburg überhaupt noch "Platt"
>gesprochen wird, also Nordniedersachsisch.
>Auch in der Stadt selbst oder nur in einigen Dörfen?
>Aber verstehe ich gut dass das Missingsch eigentlich die echte Sprache von
>Hamburg ist? Oder war, und dass jetzt das Hochdeutsch diese erste Position
>hat über genommen?

Ik ben totaal niet de geschikte persoon om dit te beantwoorden, maar
gelukkig hebben we Ron in ons midden. Zelf ken ik Hamburg alleen maar als
toerist. Volgens mij is Missingsch wel de taalvariant die je als
vreemdeling meestal met deze stad associeert.

Als het "Platt" in de miljoenenstad Hamburg echt nog wordt gesproken, zou
ik dat opmerkelijk vinden - juist in de noordelijke helft van Duitsland
worden de Nedersaksische dialecten volgens mijn eigen ervaringen bijna
alleen nog op het platteland gesproken omdat in de grote en kleinere steden
het Hoogduits al vroeg de Nedersaksische varianten verdrong - het HD werd
immers als "beschaafder" beschouwd.

Indien de situatie in Hamburg echt nog zo is als in de aankondiging voor
dat programma beschreven, is er een parallel met de situatie hier in Keulen
(ca. 950 duizend inwoners): Om redenen die ik niet weet, is hier het
dialect nooit gestigmatiseerd geweest. Je hoort dagelijks op straat mensen
onvervalst Keuls spreken, en zelfs in de hoogste kringen (rijke, oud
ingezeten families) is het niet ongewoon om in het openbaar dit
Nederfrankisch dialect te gebruiken. Heel ongewoon voor het noorden van
Duitsland.

>Was ich sehr auffällend fande wenn ich 'de Tuunkrüper' auf Missingsch
>gelesen habe, war dsch- [dZ] für j-, wie in Dschungen. Es erinnert an
>Kleurling Afrikaans djy, djou für Afr. jy, jou usw.
>Warscheinlich haben die niedersachsiche Mundarte diese dsch aber nicht,
>oder? Felix oder Reinhard, wer von euch kann das vielleicht erklären?

Inderdaad, nu je het zegt valt me dat ook op. De dialecten in het
Westmünsterland, waar ik een tijdje woonde, hebben die klank inderdaad
niet, maar hoe dat elders zit, weet ik niet. Waar zou die [dZ] vandaan
komen - naburige varianten van het Nedersaksisch? Franse invloed?? Of...?
Nog een vraag voor Ron waarschijnlijk.

Groeten uit Keulen
Felix Hülsey

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language use

Since this may be of more general interest I will summarize it and briefly
respond to it in English.

Ingmar asked if Lowlands Saxon (Low German) is still used in Hamburg.  Felix
seems to have responded by saying that the language is primarily preserved
in rural areas.

Hamburg is a state as well as a city.  Originally, it had a good number of
Lowlands Saxon dialects.  The language is fast retreating in urban
communities, has been doing so for quite a long time.  Most upper-class
people shifted straight to German (with "Hanseatic" color), and
working-class communities have been making the shift via "Missingsch,"
"uneducated" German dialects on Lowlands Saxon bases (substrates).
Missingsch is now moribund, and the shift to Northern Standard German is
almost complete, though these German dialects all have more or less Northern
or specific Hamburg colorations.  Lowlands Saxon is barely hanging on in
some communities, mostly among older working-class folks, among some more
well-to-do local pride circles that are rather exclusive and clubbish (and
thus may use the language to keep out the _Quiddjes_, the non-native
Johnnies-come-lately), and among enthusiasts of local history, culture and
language.  The language does a little better in the outlying, more rural
parts of Hamburg.  However, I have found that among older folks anywhere
there are "closet speakers and afficionados," people who know and love the
language but do not advertise this, admit it only in "safe" situations,
because it used to be anything but prestigeous in the past, almost something
like a dirty secret, and there is only so much the shifting wind can
accomplish.  These people may use the language with relatives and close
friends, may listen to or view LS broadcasts and read LS literature.  Having
gone to see a LS play at the Ohnesorg-Theater or some such theater is as
much as most of them will admit to, often with a plea for understanding ("I
love the old language, you see?").

The language decline was dramatic first when numerous immigrants moved to
Hamburg, not only from all over Germany but also from all over Central and
Eastern Europe, many of them possibly would-be emigrants to the "New World"
that got stuck in the port.  This began in the middle of the 19th century.
It was repeated at the end of World War II when many displaced Germans (and
East Europeans in fear of being persecuted as German sympathizers or
collaborators) ended up in the west and gravitated toward the larger cities.
Many East German refugees moved to Hamburg, as did refugees from Hungary,
Iran, Kurdistan and, lately, immigrants (both legal and illegal) mostly from
Africa, Asia and Eastern Europe.  Hamburg with its economic opportinities
and as the wealthiest German state and its traditionally cosmopolitan
atmosphere has always been one of the prime picks.  Whenever there was
sudden, large-scale population influx, it meant a boost for German and a
blow for the original language of the land.  This continued with large-scale
importation of "guest workers" from Mediterranean areas, especially from
Turkey.  Their children, most of whom consider Hamburg their native place,
were educated in German and do not usually have any sort of heritage
affinity to Lowlands Saxon (though some people born outside Germany do know
the language).

I hope this helped.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

================================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
======================================================================