LL-L "Image" 2004.10.08 (08) [A/E/LS/Yiddish]

[Lowlands-L]

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Image" 2004.10.08 (04) [A/E]

When I read these words (below) about fighting and everything and the
relatively long period the Lowlands-List
exists already, I was thinking this list has a life of its own with its own
ups and downs, a bit like human lifes maybe.
I wrote a poem some time ago about the scars life can bring us but also how
one can grow over them or just survive it.
It's in Dutch Lower Saxon (published in De Taolkraant, a magazine)

Lieksteeën (littekens)      ( = scars)

De lieksteeën in mien lèven bint
markerings van 't bestaon
diep in mien ziel ekarfd

as bij 'n olde ekkelboom
'n naam ekrast deur jonge haand
umhoog is mit egruid

zo holdt die olde wonden mij
deur joar en dag hen toe ebracht
gezelschop töt an 't lest

mar nou 'k die tiekens lèze wee'k
de karver is al lange dood
de boom nog oaverènd

(Ingmar)

> It has been nearly ten years now that Lowlands-L exists, and on the whole
we
> have done extremely well, I think.  We have come together from many
> countries, including countries that used to be or are currently hostile
> toward each other, even countries currently at war with each other,
> countries that some of us are prohibited from visiting.  This is no mean
> achievement.  The occasionally "fight" is nothing but a tiny speck on the
> radar screen.  While we study past and present, including horrendous
events
> (which you will see plenty of if you open today's newspapers), we do so in
> order to learn from it for the sake of a better future in which such
events
> are impossible.  The Internet has given us a tremendous opportunity to
come
> together and go in the right direction.  It may not solve world hunger and
> bring about universal human rights overnight, but at least it allows us to
> get together for some personal dialogs, and that in itself is
> counterproductive to the old tactic of dehumanizing declared enemies.
> Knowledge and love are the best defense.
>
> Have a great weekend, everyone!
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Image" 2004.10.08 (04) [A/E]

Ron wrote:
> Debates can very easily get out of hand, which can become very
uncomfortable
> when the topic is a very sensitive one for one or more participants and
> bystanders.  It's great to challenge people, even to play the devil's
> advocate in order to stimulate the discussion.  It becomes a different
> matter when this is done compulsively, intractably and antagonistically,
and
> when both sides are unwilling to forego the last word.  This is why our
> official request "All exchanges must be in a courteous and friendly tone"
is
> so important that everyone must (and usually does) bear it in mind at all
> times.  I think most people on this list have an easy time with this,
> because their minds are not set in an antagonistic mode toward each other,
> and I dare say that most of them (at least those that are "verbal") think
of
> each other in a comradely, friendly and at least forbearing manner.

Well, everybody, I apologize if I did get a little too vocal on this; but
sometimes some things just need saying and, having always been a woman of
action, when nobody else does, I will say them. I do hope my tone was still
friendly and civilized (oh no - there's that word again!). I just wanted to
point out that we would do well to be careful with the use of that term,
because of all its implications - not least because many of our "Lowlands"
languages have been, or are, considered "uncivilized", or comical at best,
and often harsh measures have been taken to "civilize" the speakers. That
probably goes for at least all of the minority languages. I think it was
Bill Wigham who used it first, and I'm sure he meant no harm by it, and
didn't even realize how it could be read.

I certainly didn't mean to drive anyone away. I rememember this sort of
thing happening at least two or three times before on this forum, always
with the same result - there were people with views similar to John's who
then decided that they didn't want to deal with such differences of opinion
(even after the topic was long "buried"), and rather left instead. I'm sorry
for my part in this, but I still think that obvious ethnical, cultural or
racial bias should at least be pointed out and discussed. Please forgive me
if you think I went overboard; I tried to be as diplomatic as I could.

John Baskind: I didn't exactly mean to "fight", and certainly not to be
"compulsive, intractable and antagonistical", but thanks for your support,
anyway!

Gabriele Kahn

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From: John Baskind <jbaskind at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Image" 2004.10.08 (04) [A/E]

On Oct 8, 2004, at 9:52 AM, Lowlands-L wrote:

  Happily, the "fighting" is over now, unless someone else decides to take
  John Feather's place, since he has chosen to leave us again.

Perhaps we should hang up John's virtual jersey, like a football star in the
States, and never allow anyone to take his place. We Lowlanders have spent
many centuries spilling each others' blood, but we have evolved away from
all that nonsense, finally, and as Poor Martha tells us, "It's a good
Thing."

As to Lowlands-l, reading this list is an integral part of my day, not only
for the knowledge I gain, but also for the people I meet here in this
colloquy.

In Yiddish one refers to a person who demonstrates a sensitive grasp of
things aesthetic and moral, and grace in execution of that understanding, as
an "eidel". There are a lot of eidele menschen on this list, and I am happy
to know you all, and Ron, especially, דו ביסת ××  עידעלע ×ž×¢× ×˜×© you are an
eidele mentsch.

Translation unnecessary, I think.

Regards,

-
John Baskind
jbaskind at mac.com

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From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Image

Thanks for the lovely poem above, Ingmar!  Please see my detailed response
under "Literature" in a bit.

Folks, I would not dream of celebrating John's second departure, for he did
contribute a lot, keeping us on our toes.  I wish him well.

Gabriele, please don't worry about it.  We know and love you as you are, and
we always need at least one warm body in the peanut gallery.  As old folk
wisdom has it, _Den eyn syn pyp-muus is den annern syn bölk-elk_.

John,

> דו ביסת ××  עידעלע ×ž×¢× ×˜×©

As another (spontaneously homegrown) proverb has it, ...

× ×Ö¸×¨ א ×ž×¢× ×˜×© װאָם איז עידעל ×“×¢×¨×§×¢× ×˜ אן עידעלע ×ž×¢× ×˜×©
[אן עיגן װעלזװערטל]

Nor a mentš vos iz eydel derkent an eydele mentš
[an eygn velzvertl]

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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