LL-L "Orthography" 2004.10.15 (13) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 15.OCT.2004 (13) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen <kenneth.christiansen at gmail.com>
Subject:

> Grongen Saxon is supposed to be included in the range, so it is:
>
> ey = [e.I] ~ [E.I] ~ [a.I] ~ [A.I]

~ [O.I]

> I believe that in Groningen, too, the first vowel is slightly lengthened,
> obeying a language-wide vowel lengthening rule before sonorants, i.e.,
> vowels, glides, liquids and nasals.

They are. That is also why you see people write 'perbaairen' and not
'perbairen' (perbeiren ~ proberen ~ probieren)

> My dialect does not have [ai]; it has [E.I].  It and Groningen [A.I]
> (spelled _aai_ in Dutch-based conventions) belong to the North Saxon
> phonetic variant range represented by ANS <ey>.

but don't you write kaiser? arbaiten etc?

There is a phoneme difference between ai and aai in Groningen Low
Saxon and also in East Frisian since they write 'ei' ([A.I]) in the
words where Gronings have aai.

> The Lower Elbe dialects monophthongize diphthongs before /r/:
>
> peyrd [pi:3`t] (vs [pE.I3`t]) 'horse'
> vourts [fu:3`ts] (vs [fO.U3`ts]) 'immediately'
> köyr [ky:3`] (vs [kœ.I3`]) 'choice'

This apparently happens a lot more in the Netherlands.

> Ingmar, Kenneth, I'd be quite willing to consider using <ii> for [i:].
> After all, it's the oldest written form (from which <y> and <ij>
developed)
> and it would be more consistent with the system:

And later ie was introduced since handwrittten ii looks like ü.

Regarding to z or s. Most Middle-age Low Saxon texts that I have read
use s where Dutch use z.

Regards,
Kenneth

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Kenneth:

> > My dialect does not have [ai]; it has [E.I].  It and Groningen [A.I]
> > (spelled _aai_ in Dutch-based conventions) belong to the North Saxon
> > phonetic variant range represented by ANS <ey>.
>
> but don't you write kaiser? arbaiten etc?
>
> There is a phoneme difference between ai and aai in Groningen Low
> Saxon and also in East Frisian since they write 'ei' ([A.I]) in the
> words where Gronings have aai.

In that case you should differentiating them by using the same system:
ay vs aay

... if you are *sure* you are dealing with a phonemic distinction and not
with a phonological rule, i.e., allophones (e.g., before sonorants).  Could
you give us some examples, enough of them to decide if it is phonemic or
allophonic?

In any event, it would be no problem to the reader, just as it is no problem
to the listener.  We are dealing with an orthographic *system* here, not
with creating a standard dialect.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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