LL-L "Orthography" 2004.10.17 (10) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 17.OCT.2004 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2004.10.16 (03) [E/LS]

> From: R. F. Hahn:

> Ingmar, we aren't talking about what you can find here and there in the
> inconsistencies of old texts to shoot at the idea as ammunition.

>>>>> I'm sorry Reinhard, you're right. Bad habit... I'll try to stop me
from it...

> What we  *are* talking about is a system based on the very basic
principles/ideas of
> a system that all the dialects (as well as Dutch and Flemish) used to have
in common.
> Besides, if you go back and look more carefully this time you will notice
that we do
> write _v-_ and not _f-_ for morpheme-initial [f], and we write _-v(-)_ for
[v] ~ [b]
> intervocalically and word-finally; e.g., vrind

>>>>> Oh, I didn't read it so well then again, huh? But I understand in
Germany this
LowSax initial v- is always pronounced as [f] ? That's different in LowSax
in the Netherlands,
where [v] is written as v- and [f] as f, before a vowel that is. As I said
earlier, vr- and vl-
are pronounced [fr]/[fl]. vroagen [frO:gN] = to ask  and  vrij [frIj] =
free; vlochten [floxtN] = to flee;
here v- is spelled because Dutch writes and pronounces [v] in stead of [f]
in these consonant clusters.
But we spell with f: flesse ["flEs@] = bottle, fluiten [f9ytN] = to
whistle/flute, fruit [fr9yt] = fruit
because of these words have f in Dutch too.

To make it more complicated, Standard Dutch also has the cluster _wr_ :
wreed [vre:it] = cruel; wrak [vrAk] = wreck; wrang [vrAN] = bitter, harsh;
wrijven ["vrEiv@] = to rub, etc.
In Dutch Lower Saxon this is usually pronounced [fr], as if it were Dutch
vr-.

I find it hard to describe the difference in pronunciation in Dutch and in
Dutch Lower Saxon between
initial v- and initial w- before a vowel. Dutch wijven (wifes) and vijven
(fives) aren't pronounced the same,
but the w- is certainly not like the English one in wives. I wouldn't know
how to differentiate our w's and v's
in phonetic systems like Sampa. wijven ["vEiv@] and vijven ["vEiv@]  too?
No, of course not because
that would mean they were pronounced alike, and that's not true.
DLowSax: wieven [vi:bM] and vieven [vi:bM] is the same wrong story...
I think German Lower Saxon doesn't have this problem, pronouncing its v-'s
like f's.
Ingmar

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From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen <kenneth.christiansen at gmail.com>
Subject: Orthography

Moy'n Reinhard,

Dutch people will probably like writing the -ouw- since they are so
used to it. In the southern dialects the ou is pronounced like and
[u:] (like in Dutch) except when it is written as ouw [AU] in Dutch.

Kenneth

---

> vrou - vru 'woman'

So also:

bouen - buen 'to build'

I say and write _vrou_ and _bouen_.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Kenneth, I think people would just have do deal with not having a "w" at the
end, just _ou_.

Ingmar, are you saying that Drenthe (and other) Lowlands Saxon dialects of
the Netherlands has *three* phonemes -- w, v, f?  We would want to consider
only phonemes, not Dutch orthography quirks.

The dialects on the German side have only /v/ and /f/, which in native words
we spell <w> and <v> respectively.  The intervocalic <v> can be [v] or [b],
dependent on the dialect.

Only foreign ("non-nativized") words and names are exempt.  Native (and
nativized) words are spelled consistently, irrespective of what German and
Dutch happen to spell stuff as.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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