LL-L "Anniversary" 2004.10.27 (11) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 27.OCT.2004 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================


From: Szelog, Mike <Mike.Szelog at citizensbank.com>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2004.10.27 (09) [E]

Hmmm....

That would be cool!!

I don't know if it's pertinent to Lowlands per se, but I'd be more than
happy to offer sound files in a few various New England dialects. I would
need an Englisah version of the text and could do them in the New England
dialect of Maine, and New Hampshire (yes there's a difference). I'd also
love to do the Anglo Saxon one, but again, would need the text (which may be
found at the link you provided).

Mike S
Manchester, NH-USA

----- Original Message -----
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Anniversary
>
> Here are further suggestions for the anniversary project:
>
> (1) Start with a world map and color the areas in which samples are to be
> found, or place dots in the general areas, and make these clickable,
leading
> to close-up maps.
>
> (2) These links lead to close-up regional maps with hyperlink dots in
places
> where language samples can be found.  If there are tight clusters of
samples
> in a given smaller area, put further hyperlink dots that lead to more
> detailed maps.
>
> (3) Eventually, the visitor arrives at hyperlink dots that link to pages,
> each identifying the language variety and place and containing the
> translator's and speaker's names (and places) as well as a written version
> of the translation, along with a link to a sound file.  The sound file
> should load while the text page is still open, so people can read and
listen
> at the same time.  In some cases two or more dots in different places
might
> lead to the same text and sound versions, such as Mennonite Lowlands Saxon
> (Low German, Plautdietsch) versions being linked from Ukraine, Siberia,
> Kazakhstan, Germany, Canada, USA, Mexico, etc.
>
> (4) The dots could be color-coded by language or by dialect group.
>
> (5) There can't be too many samples.  We are not only looking for
"special"
> or "exotic" language varieties but also for an assortment of samples such
as
> numerous Dutch and English versions.  Theoretically, we could even have a
> number of written and spoken samples of London dialects, or of any place,
> for that matter.  The English version I have posted now is just generic
and
> a bit American.  English speakers should adapt the text to the most
natural
> way they speak (and spell), so we would offer different text versions for
> different dialects of the same language.  And, please, not only English of
> England but of other English-speaking places as well (Scotland, Wales,
> Ireland, Man, Channel Islands, Australia, New Zealand, Southern Africa,
> North America, Gibraltar, etc.).
>
> (6) If possible, we should include Dutch and English versions from
> communities in which these are not the speakers' first languages but are
> used in their countries and communities on a regular, daily basis, with
> area-specific varieties.  Examples are Dutch varieties of the West Indies
> and South America (and Indonesia?), English varieties of Southern and
> Southeastern Asia, Hong Kong, the Philippines, Papua-New Guinea, Oceania,
> Argentina, the West Indies, former British colonies in Africa, American
> "protectorates," etc.  If possible, we should have several Afrikaans
> versions from South Africa, Namibia (Windhoek, etc.), Malawi, Zambia,
> Botswana (Ghanzi), etc.
>
> (7) We should also aim at including sign language versions, ideally with
> video clips (perhaps one clip per paragraph), alternatively with series of
> still photos (with arrows for movements and directions).  It would be
great
> to get these at least for British Sign Language, American Sign Language
and
> the Dutch Sign Language.
>
> (8) Does anyone feel game to translate (and read) the text into old
> languages, such as Old English, Old Frisian, Old Low Franconian and Old
> Saxon?  How about middle-stage ones?  How about Early Modern English, such
> as Shakespearean mode (and pronunciation)?
>
> (9) If we go with the "Wren" stories, you find the texts here:
> http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/low-saxon/ls-story.html
> The anniversary edition would be newly formatted and would be housed on
the
> Lowlands-L server.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron
>
> P.S.: Is anyone the project coordinator yet?  Do I see raised hands?

----------

From: Mathieu van Woerkom <mathieu at brabants.org>
Subject: Anniversary

Ron wrote:

> (9) If we go with the "Wren" stories, you find the texts here:
> http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/low-saxon/ls-story.html
> The anniversary edition would be newly formatted and would be housed on
the
> Lowlands-L server.

I think it is okay to go with 'the wren', but we should keep in mind that
this text is quite long. Not only does that take longer to translate, it
will also make the mp3 files larger. I don't know how many sound files could
be placed on the server, but with the story of the 'north wind and the sun'
it should be a lot more than with 'the wren'.

But on the other hand, there are already several versions of 'the wren' in
different lowlandic translation...

PS; If people are interested in the 'north wind and the sun', here it is:

==============================
Nordavinden og sola kjeklet om hvem av dem som var den sterkeste. Da kom det
en mann gående med en varm frakk på seg. De blei enige om at den som først
kunne få mannen til å ta av seg frakken skulle gjelde for sterkere enn den
andre. Så blåste nordavinden av all si makt, men dess mer han blåste, dess
tettere trakk mannen frakken rundt seg, og til sist gav nordavinden opp. Da
skinte sola fram så godt og varmt, og straks tok mannen av seg frakken. Og
så måtte nordavinden innrømme at sola var den sterkeste av dem.

The north wind and the sun were arguing one day about which of them was
stronger, when a traveller came along, wrapped in his overcoat. They agreed
that the one who could make the traveller take his coat off would be
considered stronger than the other one. Then the north wind blew as hard as
he could, but the harder he blew, the tighter the traveller wrapped his coat
around him; and at last the north wind gave up trying. Then the sun began to
shine hot and right away the traveller took his coat off and so the north
wind had to admit that the sun was stronger than he was.
==============================

If everyone thinks we should go for 'the wren', than we could start
'gathering' information next week or the week after that.

Groeten,
Mathieu

----------

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: "Anniversary" [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Anniversary
>
> (7) We should also aim at including sign language versions, ideally with
> video clips (perhaps one clip per paragraph), alternatively with series of
> still photos (with arrows for movements and directions).  It would be
great
> to get these at least for British Sign Language, American Sign Language
and
> the Dutch Sign Language.

I don't think a series of still pictures is a good idea - that sort of thing
is never very good at showing expressions unless lots of symbols are added
for length, speed, stress, direction in three dimensions &c. However, I
could do the BSL version in SignWriting and I think I might be able to
persuade people to do at least American Sign Language and Flemish Sign
Language versions - at least there are people using these languages on my
SignWriting mailing list so they might be interested. Here's an example of a
haiku by Basho I translated recently for my brand-new BSLtext sister site to
Scotstext:

http://bsltext.org/poems/basho.asp

It's different from Scotstext in that I have to find ways of creating texts
myself since there are no old books to scan in! I've started small with
cartoons and haiku but I'm sure I could manage the Wren now! I can of course
type it rather than handwrite it like this.

I'm doing a course starting in January which will require a video camera so
a video clip might be on the cards - but what about space? It'll take about
as long to tell the story in BSL as in any other language.

I'd love to do an audio file of the story in Scots, but obviously it's
difficult for me to judge the recording level - or tell if there's any
background noise ruining it! But I'm sure if I can figure out how to make
the recording I'll be able to persuade someone to help me to make sure it's
clear!

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

----------

From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2004.10.27 (09) [E]

Reinhard wrote:
>
> (9) If we go with the "Wren" stories, you find the texts here:
 >
Before everybody runs over to their taperecorder, or plug their
microphone into their PC, shouldn't we make a final decision about what
story to use first? I think the Wren is as good a story as any...

> P.S.: Is anyone the project coordinator yet?  Do I see raised hands?
>
Depends on what that coordinator would have to do... I have some time.

regards,
Henry

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Anniversary

Before I respond, please let me reiterate, for the sake of those who joined
us yesterday and today, that we are discussing plans to create a
text-and-sound-file presentation as a way of celebrating the 10th
anniversary of Lowlands-L in late April of 2005.

Thanks, Mike, Sandy, Henry and Mathieu!

Which reminds me to mention that people don't have to necessarily record
their own voices.  It would be great to get other speakers to do it, too, as
long as you given them credit.

Hey, Mathieu!  Could you check and see how much room we have available in
our account?  If need be I might just have to bite the bullet and purchase
some more, unless someone else has a ton and allows us to house some of the
sound files on theirs.

Henry:

> > P.S.: Is anyone the project coordinator yet?  Do I see raised hands?
> >
> Depends on what that coordinator would have to do... I have some time.

Coordinate ...  ;-)  Well, be the _baas_, the "overseer," the one who pulls
it together, cracks the whip, mostly works with MM (Meister Mathieu) and
with the various contributers.  Simply speaking, it's just to make sure that
things are running the way they should and there are no loose ends.  So,
together with Mathieu and/or a team of three or so you might want to make a
to-do list and then check off tasks that have been completed.

Yeah, Mathieu.  We'll have to come to a decision regarding the choice of
stories.  I would go with either story.  Why don't we do a quick vote?  In
order to open it up to all subscribers without giving away the identity of
those who prefer to be unknown lurkers, I suggest that everyone willing to
vote send a message to the administrative address
<lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net> with only "STORY CHOICE" in the subject line
(which allows me to route them to a special folder).  In the text please
indicate which of the stories you prefer:

WREN
NORTH WIND

Again:

To: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Subject: STORY CHOICE

WREN
or
NORTH WIND

As a matter of policy and upon my word of honor, your identity will be safe
with me and the rest of the administrative team.  So, if you are a lurker,
please vote anyway.

Since some people don't check their mail everyday, I'm making the deadline
the evening of Tuesday, November 2.

The Wren story:
http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/low-saxon/ls-story.html

I remember -- way back -- owning a booklet published by the International
Phonetic Association with this story "The Northwind and the Sun" (one of
Aesop's fables) in numerous language varieties at the back, including
several English dialects and Scots, all transliterated in the International
Phonetic Alphabet.  Does anyone have a copy of it by any chance and, if so,
can share the relevant information in some way or other?

Mathieu gave the text in Norwegian and English above.  Here are some more:

British English:
===
The North Wind and the Sun were disputing which of them was stronger, when a
traveller came along wrapped in a warm cloak. They agreed that the one who
first succeeded in making the traveller take his cloak off should be
considered stronger than the other.
Then the North Wind blew as hard as he could, but the more he blew, the more
closely did the traveller fold his cloak around him; and at last the North
Wind gave up the attempt.
Then the Sun shone out warmly, and immediately the traveller took off his
cloak. And so the North Wind was obliged to confess that the Sun was the
stronger of the two.
===

American English:
===
The North Wind and the Sun were arguing one day about which of them was
stronger, when a traveler came along wrapped up in an overcoat. They agreed
that the one who could make the traveler take his coat off would be
considered stronger than the other one.
Then the North Wind blew as hard as he could, but the harder he blew, the
tighter the traveler wrapped his coat around him; and at last the North Wind
gave up trying.
Then the Sun began to shine hot, and right away the traveler took his coat
off. And so the North Wind had to admit that the Sun was stronger than he
was.
===

German:
===
Einst stritten sich Nordwind und Sonne, wer von ihnen beiden wohl der
Stärkere wäre, als ein Wanderer, der in einen warmen Mantel gehüllt war, der
Weges kam. Sie wurden einig, das derjenige für den Stärkeren gelten sollte,
der den Wanderer zwingen würde, seinen Mantel abzulegen. Der Nordwind blies
mir aller Macht, aber je mehr er blies, desto fester hüllte sich der
Wanderer in seinen Mantel ein. Endlich gab der Nordwind seinen Kampf auf.
Nun erwärmte die Sonne die Luft mit ihren freundlichen Strahlen, und schon
nach wenigen Augenblicken zog der Wanderer seinen Mantel aus. Da mußte der
Nordwind zugeben, daß die Sonne von ihnen beiden der Stärkere war.
===

Dutch:
===
De noorderwind en de zon hadden ruzie, ze beweerden ieder sterker te zijn
dan de ander. Uiteindelijk besloten ze hun krachten op een reiziger te
testen, door te zien wie hem het eerst van zijn jas zou kunnen ontdoen.
De noorderwind begon als eerste; en, terwijl hij al zijn kracht bijeen
raapte voor de aanval, blies hij krachtig neer op de man, en kreeg zijn jas
te pakken alsof hij het er met één stoot van hem af kon slaan; maar hoe
harder hij blies; hoe dichter de man zijn jas om zich heen sloeg.
Toen was de zon aan de beurt. Eerst scheen hij zachtjes op de reiziger, die
al snel zijn jas losknoopte en hem losjes om zijn schouders hing: toen
scheen hij op hem in al zijn kracht, en de man, nog voordat hij veel stappen
kon zetten, was blij zijn jas weg te doen en zijn reis op lichtere voet
voort te zetten.
===

French:
===
Une dispute survint entre le vent du nord et le soleil, chacun prétendant
être plus fort que l'autre. Ils se mirent finalement d'accord pour tester
leur puissance sur un voyageur afin de voir lequel le débarasserait en
premier de son manteau.
Le vent du nord essaya le premier; et, rassemblant toutes ses forces pour
l'attaque, il s'abattit en tournoyant furieusement sur l'homme, et attrappa
son manteau comme s'il allait le lui arracher d'un simple effort : mais plus
il soufflait, plus l'homme serrait étroitement son manteau contre lui.
Vint alors le tour du soleil. Il rayonna d'abord doucement sur le voyageur,
qui dégrafa bientôt son manteau et marcha en laissant pendre librement sur
ses épaules : puis il brilla de toute ses forces et l'homme, avant d'être
allé bien loin, fut heureux de se débarrasser complètement de son manteau et
termina son voyage plus légèrement vêtu.
===

Spanish (Castilian):
===
Una disputa surgió entre el Viento del Norte y el Sol, cada uno clamaba que
él era más fuerte que el otro. Al fin,accedieron a probar sus poderes en un
viajero, par ver cual de los dos podía despójarle de su capa primero.
Así,el Viento del Norte hizo su primer intento; Y,reuniendo toda su fuerza
para el ataque, llegó arremolinando furiosamente sobre el hombre y atrapó su
capa, pensando que podía arrancársela con un simple esfuerzo; pero mientras
más soplaba, el hombre asía su capa más fuertemente alrededor de sí mismo.
Entonces llegó el turno del Sol. Primero, brilló suavemente sobre el
viajero, quien pronto desabrochó su capa y caminó con ella colgando
holgadamente de sus hombros; entonces,el Sol brillo con toda su fuerza,y el
hombre, antes de haber avanzado varios pasos, estaba apresurado de poder
quitarse la capa y terminar su viaje vestido de manera más ligera.
===

Polish:
===
Pierwszy spróbował Północny Wiatr; i, łącząc wszystkie swoje siły by
zaatakować, spadł wirując zaciekle na mężczyznę i chwycił jego okrycie, jak
gdyby mógł mu je wyrwać za pierwszą próbą: ale im mocniej dmuchał, tym
szczelniej mężczyzna owijał się plaszczem.
Przyszła kolej na Słońce. Najpierw zaświeciło łagodnie nad podróżnikiem,
który niebawem rozpiął swoje okrycie i szedł dalej z płaszczem zwisającym mu
swobodnie na ramionach: potem zaświeciło pełną swoją mocą, a mężczyzna,
zanim przeszedł kilka kroków, z zadowoleniem zrzucił swój płaszcz i kończył
swoja wędrówkę lekko odziany.
Namowa jest lepsza niż siła.
===

Chinese (Simplified):
===
åŒ—é£Žå’Œå¤ªé˜³äº‰è®ºè°çš„å¨å ›å¤§ã€‚ä»–ä»¬è®®å®šï¼Œè°èƒ½å‰¥åŽ»è¡Œäººçš„è¡£è£³ï¼Œå°±ç®—è°èƒœåˆ©ã€‚åŒ—é£Žå¼€å§‹çŒ›çƒˆåœ°åˆ®ï¼Œè¡Œäººæ  è¡£è£³è£¹ç´§ï¼ŒåŒ—é£Žåˆ®å¾—æ›´çŒ›ï¼Œè¡Œäººå†·å¾—åŽ‰å®³ï¼Œåˆæ·»ä¸ è®¸å¤šè¡£è£³ï¼›å¤ªé˜³å…ˆ
æ¸©å’Œåœ°æ™’ï¼Œè¡Œäººè„±æŽ‰äº†æ·»å  çš„è¡£è£³ï¼Œå¤ªé˜³è¶ æ™’è¶ çƒˆï¼Œè¡Œäººçƒ­ä¸å¯å½“ï¼Œè„±å…‰è¡£æœåˆ°æ²³é‡Œæ´—æ¾¡åŽ»äº†ã€‚
===

Chinese (Traditional):
===
åŒ—é¢¨å’Œå¤ªé™½çˆ­è¾¯èª°æœ€æœ‰å ›é‡ï¼Œå®ƒå€‘æ±ºå®šçœ‹èª°èƒ½å…ˆå‰ä¸‹ä¸€ä½è·¯äººçš„è¡£æœï¼Œèª°ä¾¿æ˜¯
å‹åˆ©è€…ã€‚åŒ—é¢¨å…ˆè©¦å®ƒçš„å¨å ›ï¼Œå®ƒç›¡å ›åœ°å¹ï¼Œä½†æ˜¯é¢¨å ›æ„ˆå¼·å¤§ï¼Œé‚£è·¯äººæ  å¤–è¡£è£¹å¾—æ„ˆç· ï¼›åŒ—é¢¨çœ‹æ²’æœ‰å¾—å‹çš„å¸Œæœ›ï¼Œä¾¿å«å¤ªé™½å‡ºä¾†ï¼Œæƒ³çœ‹å®ƒçš„æœ¬é ˜ã€‚å¤ªé™½ç«‹åˆ»ç™¼å‡ºå®ƒæ‰€æœ‰çš„ç†±å ›ä¾†
。旅行的人受了它暖和的光線，便將衣服一件件脫下，到了最後，熱得脫光衣服，在路旁的一條河裏沐浴。
===

Some sound files:
http://uk.cambridge.org/linguistics/resources/ipahandbook/
http://web.uvic.ca/ling/resources/ipa/handbook_downloads.htm

A WAV-format sound file for Fering North Frisian:
http://www.hum.au.dk/engelsk/engosb/feringwavs/noord01.wav

Would we get permission?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

==============================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================