LL-L "Phonology" 2004.09.29 (13) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 29.SEP.2004 (13) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From: Tom Maguire <jmaguire at pie.xtec.es>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.09.29 (06) [E]

From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>

>"Wrong" is a word I abhor when it's used to refer to people's way of
>speaking. The intended meaning is usually "different than me", or
>"different than the majority". Different is something else than wrong.
>
I couldn't agree more.

Tom

--
Carpe Diem.
-Visit Nlp in Education  http://www.xtec.es/~jmaguire
-Join Nlp-Education  mailto:nlp-education-subscribe at yahoogroups.com

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.09.29 (06) [E]

Hi Henry, my compatriot! I'm in doubt if my answers to all your questions
below won't be to boring for the rest, but okay I'll give it a try...
I put >>>>> in front to make it easier to recognize them.
>
> From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2004.09.28 (02) [E]
>
> Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl> wrote:
> >
> > Beste Henry, some people who don't (see below) are doing it wrong.

> "Wrong" is a word I abhor when it's used to refer to people's way of
> speaking. The intended meaning is usually "different than me", or
> "different than the majority". Different is something else than wrong.

>>>>> That is why I added the following remark:
"That is: at least officially, when we are looking at the Standard Dutch
 pronunciation of the Netherlands".
I agree, different than the majority is not wrong, but I think today the
majority
itself may be getting a bit wrong, and that the minority is seen as
different now.
By that I mean the speakers of Dutch who refuse to take over the
Randstad-plat
which is so popular in the medias...

That is: at least officially, when we are looking at the Standard Dutch
> > pronunciation of the Netherlands
> There isn't one, in my opinion. What's the standard pronunciation then,
> according to you?

>>>>>The standard pronunciation of Dutch "should" be: not too far from the
spelling, should go back to some well established traditions and, very
important too: should be some kind of balance between North (Netherlands)
and
South (Flanders/Belgium), between West and East etc.
But that my personal opinion, because nowadays only the Randstad-Hollandic
pronunciations seem to be important, which I don't like at all, as an
Easterner.
Randstad (Western) Dutch speakers pretend they are speaking the perfect
Dutch
and always make fun of people with different accents, especially
North-Easterners,
(Belgium)Flemish and Limburgians, they seem to be totally unaware of their
own
broad regional accents however.
It is even so bad that the Belgium television has to use subtitles for Dutch
(Netherland)
programmes because otherwise the Flemish don't understand what is said.
These subtitles are an exact transcription of the Dutch words spoken, but
they are
pronounced in a way the Belgiums can't understand them anymore (at least,
that
is what the Flemish TV must think).
And that is only because of the careless pronunciation of Dutch actors.
Twenty or more years ago that wouldn't have been necessary at all.
One of many features of this is the pronunciation of intervocal -w- (-uw-)
the same
as initial w-. By the way, there is another strange Randstad thing to
confuse final
-w (-uw) with "l", the word nieuws (=news) is frequently pronounced as
"niels"
even by the anchormen who read it...

> > Of course many people who speak a regional variety, or with an accent
can
> have different pronunciations,
>  >
> That's more like _will_ have a different pronunciation.

>>>>>Yes, of course, you're right.
>
> > According to the Dutch Pronunciation Dictionary intervocally we
> > pronounce -w- [w] (like Engl. w).
>  >
> I don't know the Dutch Pronunciation Dictionary, however I assume that
> since the title is in English, it's written by a foreigner? Is there a
> pronunciation dictionary in Dutch, by a native?

>>>>> It's called Nederlands Uitspraakwoordenboek or something like that.
And it's available in the public libraries, at least in the citie(s) where I
live(d).
But I believe there are more than one of these guides for Dutch
pronunciation.
I don't have one myself. There are a few description manuals of Standard
Dutch
phonology as well, very interesting.

> > Or I should say: -uw-, because this "w" always has a "u" before it, and
> the > > combination -uw- = [w].
>  >
> Ah, "uw" I always pronounce with English w, I believe. On a side note:
> don't the Flemish pronounce that w the same as initial w?

>>>>>I was speaking about this intervocal -w- (uw) all the time.
And as I wrote before: many Southern pronunciation (including many Flemish)
have "English w" in all position, both initial, intervocal and final.
I'm not entirely sure but I think to have heard some Frisians using this
initial
"round w" as well, when speaking Dutch.

> > Dutch doesn't have intervocal -w- without "u" in native words (unlike
> > Afrikaans).
>  >
> I assume you're referring to the spelling here, words always having a u
> in front of a w when used intervocally. Right?

>>>>>That's right
>
> regards,
> Henry

>>>>> And to you, Ingmar

==============================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================