LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.03 (04) [E]

Sun Apr 3 20:22:54 UTC 2005

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 03.APR.2005 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (ZeÃªuws)
=======================================================================

From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.02 (06) [E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
> You
say the _mume_ part (with a low voice) while hidden and the _kieks_ part
(with a high voice) while (re)appearing. _Kyksen_ <kieksen> can be used to
mean 'to peek'.  I assume the _mume_ part is related to "mumming," German
_(ver)mummen_, etc., thus to "disguising."<

The Sprach Bockhaus has
mumm = Schallwort mit halboffenem Mund: er wagt nicht mumm zu sagen. But
gives no origin.

SBH also gives the origin of mummen/mummeln/ die Mumme as being French.

Yet CT Onions in OED says the French may have borrowed it from the German
and quotes

MDu momme  Du mom = mask  MLG mummen = mask / disguise. But ends by saying
that the relative choronology is obscure!

OED also says its origins are the same as English : to keep mum about
something. And that your Mummenschanze gave us mumchance !

Eric Partridge seems to ignore any Germanic origins and leans towards the
idea of a mask being the original concept :see  OF momer   which perhaps
meant to grimace with astonishment or fear. And relates it to both Sp and
Port momo = a grimace  and the Fr Momo! = a cry of astonishment.

I had not realised the German connection with our English  "Mummers", who
were also known as 'Guisers'!

Heather

----------

From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.02 (05) [E/LS]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>My first idea was, it could be cognate with "weed" (HG: 'Un-[kraut])- but
in
LS we 've got the verb 'weeden', HG: '[Unkraut] jÃƒÂ¤ten', E: of course! 'to
weed'.
Then I remembered having heard North-Frisians using "weet" in the good old
sense of E: "wet", G: 'feucht'.

I guess it to be remarkable- it could be Low-Saxon's nearly forgotten
connection to E: 'wet', and I don't know any HG-word even in the near.<

Eric Partidge says:  akin to OE waeter  is OE adjective    wÃ¦t...   which
is akin to OFris  wet and ON vathr, vatr

So no direct HG version tho' all are related to Wasser / waten

Heather

----------

From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.02 (05) [E/LS]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
> ''Schwad'' E:  '[damp hay lying for further drying in a] ??''line'',
> ''row'' ???
(help needed, at this point!).<

Sorry for the 3 dribbles of information: it takes time to look these (very
interesting) things up

Schwad / Schwaden is in the Sprach Bockhaus as :    Reihe hingemÃ¤hten oder
auf lange Zeilen geharkten Grases oder Getreides

>>From which we get English : swath (swathe   Northen English)    i.e. to cut
a swath through the grass

Fascinating!

Thanks

Heather

PS what's the Word of Today?

----------

From: Dirk Baack <baack at tu-harburg.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.01 (09) [E/LS]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
> I guess the most likely North Saxon equivalent is _nar_ (<Narr>), which is
> also a German word.  The connected adjectives/adverbs are _narsch_
> (<narrsch>) and _nÃ¤rrisch_ respectively.  This expresses less insanity
> than
> foolishness or silliness.  The North Saxon adjective/adverb most likely to
> be used to hint at insanity would be _mal_ (<mall>, from French), but it,
> too, can be used to imply silliness.  (E.g., _Wees nich so mal!_ 'Don't be
> so silly!')  This can even be used inanimates, such as _mallen kraam_ or
> _mal tuyg_ ("stupid/silly stuff").  In that sense it transitions over to
> _dwatsch_ or _appel-dwatsch_ which, semantically originating in the idea
> of
> "contrary," tends more toward "non-sensical."  It too can be used with
> inanimate and animate objects; e.g., _(appel-)dwatschen kraam_ 'nonsense'
> and _(appel-)dwatschen keyrl_ 'silly, nonsense-talking guy'.
>
Just to complete this: Don't forget "Narnkraam", which is a quite common
noun, at least here (Loomst, between Bremerlee (Jonny Meibohn and
Hamborg (Ron)).

IMHO "mall" isn't used so often. Well, the Asterix translation uses
quite often words like "MallbÃ¼dels", De sÃ¼nd mall, de RÃ¶mers" and so on.
But I don't hear "mall" so often in daily communication here.

Dirk

--
+----------------------------------------------------------+
| Dirk Baack    elektronische Post: Dirk at baack-lamstedt.de |
+----------------------------------------------------------+

----------

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.02 (03) [E]

Tom McRae wrote:

> > Gowk_ and _gack_ appear to be related to Dutch _gek_, Low Saxon _gek_
> > (<Geck>) and German _Geck_, all 'fool'.

How I wish my parents had known that before they named me Gabriele Erika
Kahn... making my initials "GEK"... or maybe they did? :-P

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.01 (11) [E/LS]

Ron wrote:

> before ... Goes to show you ... But be warned, Jonny, and be afraid, be
very
> afraid! Sometime, sooner or later, when you least expect it, I'll get you,
> and I'll get you good, and then we'll see who laughs last and laughs best.
> Watch your back at all times! Oh, I'd be very, yerrry afraid if I were
you!
> (And the same goes for any possible smirking supporter of yours on the
cheap
> seats of the peanut gallery).

Who could you possibly be referring to? I'll have you know that I, for
example, absolutely cannot condone Jonny's respectless behaviour. Schaam di
wat, Aprilbohm! (Wish I had thought of it first, but Ron would never have
trusted me in the first place - discrimination, that is).

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Heather (above):

> Sorry for the 3 dribbles of information: it takes time to look these (very
> interesting) things up

Don't worry about it.  That's a small prize to pay for being in the presence
of an avid and capable fellow-etymologizer.

> I had not realised the German connection with our English  "Mummers", who
> were also known as 'Guisers'!

I had hoped that "mummy" (Dutch _mummie_, German _Mumie_ etc.) was related
to it.  ("Wrapped up," see?)  But alas, this does not pan out.  In the case
of English it comes from Norman French _mumie_, which denotes a bitumenous
substance used for embalming, going back to Arabic Ù…ÙˆÙ…Ù Ø§Ø¡ (Ù‚Ø¨ÙˆØ±Ùˆ) _mÃ»miyÃ¢`
(qubÃ»rÃ»)_ '(sepulchral) bitumen'.  Ah, well ...
('Mummy' = 'preserved corps' is Ù…ÙˆÙ…Ù Ø§Ø¡ _mÃ»miyÃ¢`_ in Modern Arabic.)

In Low Saxon, _mummeln_ ~ _mÃ¼mmeln_ means 'to mumble', 'to murmur;, cf.
German _murmeln_, Dutch _mompelen_, _murmuring_.  I assume this is a case of
either /r/ or /p/ assimilation to /m/, not one of actual relationship with
the afore-mentioned words.

But here's an interesting one: Low Saxon _mummel_ ~ _mÃ¼mmel_ 'water-lily'.
What's that about?  (And Dutch _plomp_ for the same?)  Any relation with
_murmel_ < _marmel_ 'marble'?

About 'wet':

> Eric Partidge says:  akin to OE waeter  is OE adjective    wÃ¦t...   which
> is akin to OFris  wet and ON vathr, vatr
>
> So no direct HG version tho' all are related to Wasser / waten

If there were a German cognate of 'wet', I'd exprect *_wass_ or *_wess_.  I
assume that _waten_ 'to wade' is a Low Saxon loan (< _waten_ ~ _waden_), as
is _Watt_ (< _wat_); otherwise I'd expect *_wassen_ and *_Wass_.

Gabriele (above):

> How I wish my parents had known that before they named me Gabriele Erika
> Kahn... making my initials "GEK"... or maybe they did? :-P

Och, if they did, I'm sure they meant it in the best possible sense.  (What
choice did they have, poor things?)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

==============================END===================================
Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")
are  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================