LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.04 (07) [E]

Mon Apr 4 21:32:20 UTC 2005

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.04 (04) [E]

Ron wrote:
"Is there any particular reason why you suspect it to be an Old Norse loan?
Could it not have reached Irish from Old English?"

Irish contact with the Vikings and their language was more frequent than
contact with speakers of Old English. When the Anglo-Normans invaded in
1169, they brought Norman French loans with them. There are a number of Old
English loans in Irish - immediately, _bácús_ 'bakery' springs to mind - but
they are few compared to Old Norse. Irish _rún_ may be one. I have an open
mind.

If it was an Old English loan I would expect it to be limited to the area of
the former Pale (roughly Dublin and as far north as south Louth), where Old
English appears to have been spoken most (Fingalian, a relation of Yola,
appears to represent its dying embers), yet _rún_ seems to be represented in
most Irish variants, leading me to suspect that Norse sea travel dispersed
it, or that it is a native Irish term that is only coincidentally identical
to Old English and Old Norse.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criostóir.

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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.02 (06) [E]

Hi all,
Tom Mc Rae said that Russian kids peep out saying 'Cuckoo'.
Interesting! I grew up saying exactly that (or rather koekoe!) and
think it relates to 'koekeloer'. Another word probably related is
'koewie!' for hello!
Regards,
Elsie Zinsser

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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.02 (06) [E]

Hi all,

Ian Pollock referred to Kukushka and Ron remarked: I take it кукушка
_kukuška_ is
the diminutive form of *кукук *_kukuk_ (which may now be archaic or
defunct).

My maternal great-grandmother's maiden name was Kukuk but the name is not
typical amongst Afrikaner surnames.

Regards,
Elsie Zinsser

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.03 (04) [E]

Dear Heather, Dirk, Ron, Dirk, Tom & Gabriele

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.02 (06) [E]

In Afrikaans 'vermom' = disguised. According to antique English practise
May & Christmas festivities were celebrated by performers in costume, called
'mummers' (& watch 'guise'; it comes up again, hey!
So also 'kyk' = look. Consider the Scots 'keek' meaning the same.

> You say the _mume_ part (with a low voice) while hidden and the _kieks_
part
> (with a high voice) while (re)appearing. _Kyksen_ <kieksen> can be used to
> mean 'to peek'.  I assume the _mume_ part is related to "mumming," German
> _(ver)mummen_, etc., thus to "disguising."

I therefore incline to the belief that this (the practice as well as the
terminology) has an ancient Teutonic, if not even Germanic origin.

> I had not realised the German connection with our English  "Mummers", who
> were also known as 'Guisers'!

I hope we're talking about the same thing, but the Afrikaans 'onkruid' &
'kruie', meaning in the first place 'weeds' & in the second 'herbs'.
For English 'weed' I think the only Afrikaans near enough is 'weiding' =
'grazing' (the pasture).
Pardon me while I follow this trail: English 'wheat' used in OE to mean
'white' (it was the 'white' grain). Another word from that time is for those
birds called 'wheatears', which meant in OE 'white arse'. They don't eat
wheat, they don't have ears, they don't look like or like ears of corn, but
they do have a white rump, the only part of their body that is.
Afrikaans 'Wet' & 'weet' have a common origin, referring in the first case
to 'the Law' & in the second to 'what you know'. I think these are related
to the Modern (sort of) English 'wot' = know, as in, "A garden is a lovesome
thing, God wot." The related German is I believe 'weisse' = to know.

>My first idea was, it could be cognate with "weed" (HG: 'Un-[kraut])- but
in
> LS we 've got the verb 'weeden', HG: '[Unkraut] jÃ¤ten', E: of course! 'to
> weed'. Then I remembered having heard North-Frisians using "weet" in
> the good old sense of E: "wet", G: 'feucht'.

I confess I don't see any connection between this & water in any Teutonic
tongue.
But I wish I could find a connection in the Taal for this!

> ''Schwad'' E:  '[damp hay lying for further drying in a] ??''line'',
''row'' ???

> Schwad / Schwaden is in the Sprach Bockhaus as :    Reihe hingemähten oder
> auf lange Zeilen geharkten Grases oder Getreides

> >From which we get English : swath (swathe   Northen English)    i.e. to
cut
> a swath through the grass

Hey Dirk & Tom & Gabriele.

Thanks for this. In Afrikaans we use 'nar',  'gek' & 'mal'. Usually the nar
is doing it deliberately, but the gek can't help himself, & the 'malle' is
lead away to a quiet place by people in white coats.

> > I guess the most likely North Saxon equivalent is _nar_ >

> > > Gowk_ and _gack_ appear to be related to Dutch _gek_, Low Saxon _gek_
> > > (<Geck>) and German _Geck_, all 'fool'.
> > I had not realised the German connection with our English  "Mummers",
who
> > were also known as 'Guisers'!

> I had hoped that "mummy" (Dutch _mummie_, German _Mumie_ etc.) was related
> to it.  ("Wrapped up," see?)  But alas, this does not pan out.  In the
case
> of English it comes from Norman French _mumie_, which denotes a bitumenous
> substance used for embalming, going back to Arabic موم  ء (قبورو) _mûmiyâ`
> (qubûrû)_ '(sepulchral) bitumen'.  Ah, well ...
> ('Mummy' = 'preserved corps' is موم  ء _mûmiyâ`_ in Modern Arabic.)

I know the History of 'mummy' & I thought it went back to Herodotus, but I
still disagree that it has any connection with English 'mummers' & 'mumming'
The Teutonic background *mumen* is just too substansial.

> In Low Saxon, _mummeln_ ~ _mümmeln_ means 'to mumble', 'to murmur'; cf.
> German _murmeln_, Dutch _mompelen_, _murmuring_.  I assume this is a case
of
> either /r/ or /p/ assimilation to /m/, not one of actual relationship with
> the afore-mentioned words.

I'm afraid I disagree with all I have read so far of Partridge. Water is
something else again, but my wife pointed this out for my deluctation, the
spooky similarity of the query 'what' with the element 'water' in so many
apparantly unrelated languages.

Watter? (which?) & water - Afrikaans,
Ma im? (what if?) & mayim - Hebrew.
A que? (wherefor?) & aqua - Spanish

> > Eric Partidge says:  akin to OE waeter  is OE adjective    wæt...
which
> > is akin to OFris  wet and ON vathr, vatr

All you etymologisers rule, OK!

Yrs,
Mark

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