LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.06 (05) [E]

Wed Apr 6 20:42:13 UTC 2005

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.06 (01) [E]

Hi all,

I doubt that my four year old son is concerned with sounding affected or
educated
when saying [bait@] instead of [b at it@] :)

I have read that this is an English-language influence, and which apparently
started
in Pretoria at Afrikaans Hoër Meisieskool by an English speaking teacher.

It was originally probably an attempt to over-compensate but is now quite
predominant
on the Rand amongst Afrikaans speakers within the age groups 10-30.

Regards,
Elsie Zinsser
>Could /ui/ to /ai/  not be interpreted as  an  over correction or perhaps
>even an affectation in an
attempt to sound  correct/educated? What say the clever people?

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.03 (01) [E]

An example of Dutch Low Saxon where <ö> rhymes with <e> is found in the
third part of the song "Bernd van Kuyperiy" of the popular Achterhoeks
band Boh Foi Toch :

in et voerjaor gao'w dan langs den ES
wiy lopet daor samen hand in hand
en biy de bekke in et GRöS
vleget unse lyve in de brand
de kalvere stuvet haost doer den draod
de kyften raert hoog an de locht
ik wette met miy selv gin raod
ik heb so lang hyr nao esocht
ik kryge van ou jao neet genoch
nee noyt genoch

(I transcribed it in ANS)

So <es> (a kind of agr. field) and <grös> grass are rhyming here.

I'll give you the first two parts of the song too:

Goyendag myn dern bün iy noch vriy
myn naam is Bernd van Kuyperiy
Ik heb 'ne moye burderiy
den's ok van ou a'y trout met miy
ik heb good melk up al myne grund
der is voer twe platse sat
'k heb vyftig beeste en een hund
myn va en mo woont ampart
a'y biy myn komt
geev ik myn lyf, geev ik myn hart

Ik sag ou aover straote gaon
iy kwamen kort an miy voerbiy
Mag ik wel evkes biy ou staon
myn naam is Bernd van Kuyperiy
Ik heb ou hyr noch noyt eseen
iy komt hyr sekers neet vandan
Ik voele miy mangs so alleen
gin derntjen wög et met miy an
Ik do voer ou, a'y biy miy komt
al wat ik kan

In et voerjaor gao'w dan ... etc

***

The dialect is Western Achterhoek Low Saxon, as one may see with a lot of
schwa-deletion already - like neighboring Low Franconian and Dutch, and
using sec. pers. pronouns <iy/ou> in stead of more Eastern <dou/diy>,
again as in Dutch <jij/jou> and Low Franc. <giy/ou>.

Ingmar Roerdinkholder

>From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
>Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.02 (04) [E]
>
>[...]
>
>> Would rhyming "u" with "i" sound OK in the other
>> Lowlands languages?
>>
>> Darrin
>
>Hallo,
>
>'Not-perfect' rhyming is generally accepted  [at least
>in the Germanic languages] when the two rhyming sounds
>have the same number [and kind] of distinctive
>features, unless one.
>
>vr.gr.
>Theo Homan

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.04.06 (04) [E]

Well, Ron, what I was actually asking about was the pronunciation of Afr.
<y> / <ei>,which I've seen being described as [@i], so with a schwa as
first element.
Maybe someone else, esp. a native Afrikaans speaker, can tell us more
about that?

Baie dankie!

Ingmar Roerdinkholder

PS: I know 'baie' is from Malay 'banya' much, many, a lot. Are there more
common Malay/Javanese/Indonesian/Malagassy loans in Afr.?
In Dutch we have some common ones like 'piekeren' to think/to worry
(originally from Arabic 'fikir' of course), 'soebatten' to quarrel, 'tabé'
farewell, 'tahoe' tofu (<Chinese?), 'toko' shop (<Chinese?) etc

Ingmar

>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Phonology
>
>Ben:
>
>> >It sounds to me almost like Norwegian Au.
>
>Ingmar (above):
>
>> Yes, Ben, Norwegian <au> sounds like Dutch <ui>, because in Norw. <au> =
>> <a> + <u>, and <u> sounds like Dutch/French <u>, or German ü.
>
>I think Ben's "almost" is quite warranted.  "Not quite" may be another one
>here.
>
>In most Norwegian (and Swedish) dialects, /u/ is not pronounced quite like
>"Dutch/French <u>, or German ü," i.e., like [y] and [Y], not like [u] and
>[U] either, but is an in-between, "medial" version -- neither back nor
>front.  In IPA script it is written as an "u" with a bar through it, in
>SAMPA as [}]. This applies to the glide in /au/ as well.  Furthermore, the
>/a/ in /au/ is pronounced as [æ] (digraph "ae") in IPA and as [{] in
SAMPA,
>thus [{}] for the diphthong in SAMPA (looking rather weird).  I think this
>"u" sound in Norwegian and Swedish sounds closest to "ü" to speakers of
>other Germanic languages, hence the "slight misperception."
>
>The "conservative" pronunciation of Dutch <ui> tends to be described in
IPA
>as [œ] (digraph "oe") followed by an upside-down "h," which denotes the
>glide equivalent of [y].  In SAMPA it tends to be written [9y].  In the
>"newer" pronunciation, which unrounds the vowel an lowers the glide, I
>suggest writing [æ] followed by a small capital "y", in SAMPA [{Y].
>
>So, in this latter pronunciation, the vowel does indeed sound like the one
>in Norwegian <au>, but the glide is not medial and tense but back and lax.
>
>Conservative Afrikaans <ui> tends to be described the same as conservative
>Dutch <ui>.  From what I have heard, the newer Afrikaans versions range
>somewhere between the newer Dutch one and what in IPA is schwa followed
by a
>small capital "y", in SAMPA [@Y], with extension to total unrounding, this
>involving the glide that in IPA is a small capital "i" and in SAMPA [I].
It
>sounds closest to what in Afrikaans are written <y> and <ei> and may end
up
>identical if the trend persists and speakers *perceive* them as identical.
>
>Regards,
>Reinhard/Ron

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Ingmar (above):

> Well, Ron, what I was actually asking about was the pronunciation of Afr.
> <y> / <ei>,which I've seen being described as [@i], so with a schwa as
> first element.

That's how it may have started.  I was merely responding to what you wrote,
irrespective of the initial inquiry:

>> Yes, Ben, Norwegian <au> sounds like Dutch <ui>, because in Norw. <au> =
>> <a> + <u>, and <u> sounds like Dutch/French <u>, or German ü.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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