LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.07 (05) [E/LS]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 07.APR.2005 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: Etymology

Leeve Lowlanners,

(English below)

'n nieget Woord vandoog:

in uns LS-Mundoort bruukt wi aff un' an dat Woord *Knief*, wat natöörlik opp
Ingelt: "knife", opp Haugdyytsch "Messer" meent. Wi bruukt dat, mutt ick
tougeeven, ne meer foken; de meersten Lüüd seggt "Metz", in de sülvig
Meen'n.

In miin Wöörbökers kunn ick ne recht wat finnen, wat door an verwandt is- ne
in Oul Sassisch, ook ne in Oul Ingelsch or in Oul Frees'sch.

1. Watt meent Jii, woneem dit Woor herkoomen deiht? Kunn dat woll van de
oulen Wikingers koomen?
2. Is dat woll een Woord, wat uns "Platt" sick van dat Ingelsche utleent
hett?

***

Dear Lowlanners,

another word today:

in our LS-dialect we sometimes use the word *Knief*, meaning of course E:
"knife", G: "Messer". It's, as I have to admit, not so very common in our
days, most people prefer the LS: "Metz", meaning the same thing.

In my dictionaries I could'nt find any obvious cognate words, neither in
Old-Saxon nor in Old-English or Old-Frisian.

1. What do You guess to be it's etymological origin? Could it come from Old
Norse?
2. Is it- in our LS- a loan from English?

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

[English below]

Dat is 'n intressante Saak, mit dey Du vun daag' an-kümst, leyve Jonny.

Dat Old-Sassische wourd is _sahs_ (> Saks ~ Sax). Dat kanst as 'n lang mets
(~ mess) or as 'n kort sweyrd beschryven. Dat harren sey schynts tou 't
warken un vechten bruukt. (Daar kümt ook Skandinaawsch meyrtal _sakser_,
_saxor_ etc. vör _scheyr_ vun af.) Dat annere Old-Sassisch wourd is
_mėtisahs_ (_metisahs_). Dat harren sey sachs by 't praat-maken un eten vun
spysen bruukt, wyl dat _mėti_ (_meti_) 'eten', 'spys'' beduydt. (Vergl.
Ingelsch _meat_, Deensch _mad_, etc.)

In 't Old-Neddervranksche weett wy man bloots vun _sahs_. Ney-Nedderlandsch
het _mes_ (< *_metisahs_).

Ik kan ook keyn Old-Sassisch wourd vinden, dat mit Ingelsch _knife_ verwandt
is. Ik neem an, dat _knyv_ vun 't Vreyssche or vun 't Skandinaawsche
af-keym, sachs in Middel-Sassische tyden, in dey de Sassen eyn vout in 't
nourd harren un sik poe-a-poe Vreyssch-sprakige rebeyden up d'n snavel
reyten.

Old-Ingelsch het _cníf_, Old-Vreyssch _knif_, Old-Nourdsch _knífr_ (>
_knif_, _kniv_, etc.), Middel-Hollandsch _cnijf_ (> _knijf_, _knijp_),
Middel-Sassisch _knîf_ (> knyv, knyp, > Middel-Duytsch _kneif_).

Nu wy weett dat dat Old-Sassische un das Old-Neddervranksche düt wourd nich
hebt man Middel-Sassische un das Middel-Neddervranksche dat wourd wul hebt,
daar koent wy wul seggen dat dat eyrder vun 't Vreyssche as vun 't
Skandinaawsche af-keym, wyl dat de twey spraken sik in Vreyssch-sprakige
rebeyden breyd moeken. Dat 't vun 't Skandinaawsche af-keym is man nich
unmoeglich. Dat 't 'n Ingelsch leenwourd is, dat gloyv' ik nich.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

***

You're coming to us with a particularly interesting topic, Jonny.

The Old Saxon word is _sahs_ (> Saks ~ Sax) denoting a long knife or a short
sword, probably used as a tool and as a weapon. (This is where Scandinavian
plural _sakser_, _saxor_ etc. 'scissors' come from.) The other Old Saxon
word for 'knife' is _mėtisahs_ (_metisahs_), which seems to have denoted a
knife with which to prepare and eat food, since _mėti_ (_meti_) means 'food'
(cf. English "meat," Danish _mad_, etc.).

In Old Low Franconian, only _sahs_ seems to be known, and Modern Dutch has
_mes_ (< *_metisahs_).

I can't find an Old Saxon cognate of "knife" either. I suspect that Modern
_knyv_ (<Knief>) goes back to a Frisian or Scandinavian loan, probably in
Middle Saxon times when the Saxons had one foot in the north and were
gradually usurping Frisian-speaking areas.

Old English has _cníf_, Old Frisian _knif_, Old Norse _knífr_ (> _knif_,
_kniv_, etc.), Middle Dutch _cnijf_ (> _knijf_, _knijp_), Middle Saxon
_knîf_ (> knyv, knyp, > Middel-Duytsch _kneif_).

So, in this light of a cognate being absent from both Old Saxon and Old Low
Franconian but a cognate being present in Middle Saxon and Middle Dutch, we
might presume that we are dealing with a Frisian loan, since both languages
encroached on Frisian areas. However, we can't exclude the possibility of
this being a Scandinavian loan either. I think it's less likely that it is
an English loan.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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