LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.07 (07) [E/F/LS]

[Lowlands-L]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Henno Brandsma <hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.07 (05) [E/LS]


  From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
  Subject: Etymology

  Leeve Lowlanners,

  (English below)

  'n nieget Woord vandoog:

  in uns LS-Mundoort bruukt wi aff un' an dat Woord *Knief*, wat natöörlik
opp
  Ingelt: "knife", opp Haugdyytsch "Messer" meent. Wi bruukt dat, mutt ick
  tougeeven, ne meer foken; de meersten Lüüd seggt "Metz", in de sülvig
  Meen'n.

  In miin Wöörbökers kunn ick ne recht wat finnen, wat door an verwandt is-
ne
  in Oul Sassisch, ook ne in Oul Ingelsch or in Oul Frees'sch.
It moderne Westerlauwersk Frysk hat ek "knyft", foar in grut mês, dêr'tst
bygelyks bôle meis nijst. Yn it easten wurdt it ek foar bûsmessen brûkt.
It Noardfrysk hat ek "knif", "kniiw" esfh. Dit is nei alle gedachten stipe
fan
it oanbuorjende Skandinaafks (it hoecht net liend te wêzen: it Aldfrysk hie
it
ommers al en de ûntjouwing is ek lûdwettich).


  1. Watt meent Jii, woneem dit Woor herkoomen deiht? Kunn dat woll van de
  oulen Wikingers koomen?
  2. Is dat woll een Woord, wat uns "Platt" sick van dat Ingelsche utleent
  hett?

  ***
  Greutens/sincerely

  Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

  ----------

  From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
  Subject: Etymology

  [English below]

  Dat is 'n intressante Saak, mit dey Du vun daag' an-kümst, leyve Jonny.

  Dat Old-Sassische wourd is _sahs_ (> Saks ~ Sax). Dat kanst as 'n lang
mets
  (~ mess) or as 'n kort sweyrd beschryven. Dat harren sey schynts tou 't
  warken un vechten bruukt. (Daar kümt ook Skandinaawsch meyrtal _sakser_,
  _saxor_ etc. vör _scheyr_ vun af.) Dat annere Old-Sassisch wourd is
  _metisahs_ (_metisahs_). Dat harren sey sachs by 't praat-maken un eten
vun
  spysen bruukt, wyl dat _meti_ (_meti_) 'eten', 'spys'' beduydt. (Vergl.
  Ingelsch _meat_, Deensch _mad_, etc.)
It Sealtersk hat noch Soaks foar "mês".


  In 't Old-Neddervranksche weett wy man bloots vun _sahs_.
Ney-Nedderlandsch
  het _mes_ (< *_metisahs_).

  Ik kan ook keyn Old-Sassisch wourd vinden, dat mit Ingelsch _knife_
verwandt
  is. Ik neem an, dat _knyv_ vun 't Vreyssche or vun 't Skandinaawsche
  af-keym, sachs in Middel-Sassische tyden, in dey de Sassen eyn vout in 't
  nourd harren un sik poe-a-poe Vreyssch-sprakige rebeyden up d'n snavel
  reyten.

  Old-Ingelsch het _cníf_, Old-Vreyssch _knif_, Old-Nourdsch _knífr_ (>
  _knif_, _kniv_, etc.), Middel-Hollandsch _cnijf_ (> _knijf_, _knijp_),
  Middel-Sassisch _knîf_ (> knyv, knyp, > Middel-Duytsch _kneif_).

  Nu wy weett dat dat Old-Sassische un das Old-Neddervranksche düt wourd
nich
  hebt man Middel-Sassische un das Middel-Neddervranksche dat wourd wul
hebt,
  daar koent wy wul seggen dat dat eyrder vun 't Vreyssche as vun 't
  Skandinaawsche af-keym, wyl dat de twey spraken sik in Vreyssch-sprakige
  rebeyden breyd moeken. Dat 't vun 't Skandinaawsche af-keym is man nich
  unmoeglich. Dat 't 'n Ingelsch leenwourd is, dat gloyv' ik nich.

  Kumpelmenten,
  Reinhard/Ron
It liket earder mien-Germaansk te wêzen, mei guon fariëteiten dy't it
bewarre hawwe,
en de measten dy't it ferlern hawwe...

Mei freonlike groetnis,

Henno Brandsma

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Henno (benoarden):

> It liket earder mien-Germaansk te wêzen, mei guon fariëteiten
> dy't it bewarre hawwe, en de measten dy't it ferlern hawwe...

Ach, ja, Henno! Tank. Dit is de dredde mooglikheid, net te ferjitte.

Folks, Henno presented the third possibility, his suggestion, regarding
_knyv_ etc. for 'knife' in Low Franconian and Low Saxon: they are common
Germanic and have been preserved in some varieties, not in others (with the
implication that they just are not found in extant ancient texts).

I have another question regarding Afrikaans.

In Afrikaans, there is no inherited "this" vs "that" opposition of the sort
we find in English, Low Saxon (_dit_ ~ düt_ vs _dat_) and Dutch (_dit_ vs
_dat_).  Afrikaans has just _dit_ as a generic, and it has the compounds
_hierdie_ (< "here that/the") for 'this' and _daardie_ (< "there that/the")
for 'that'.  I wonder if there is some (assumedly indirect) Frisian
influence, given Westerlauwer Frisian _dit_ meaning both 'this' and 'that'.
Do you also say *_dit hjir_ and *_dit dêr_ or *_hjir dit_ and *_dêr dit_
respectively in Frisian?  Are there (assumedly mostly coastal) Low
Franconian varieties that have a similar system (perhaps due to Frisian
substrates) from which Afrikaans might have inherited it (rather than
Afrikaans having "simplified" the system by itself or due to different
influences)?  How about Zeelandic?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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